[DickP]

I've been eyeing a 97. The one I'm looking at has a very short barrel like a trench gun, though it doesn't have the perforated shield or the bayonet lug. It's stamped full choke, so I assume its been cut down... It is a takedown, serial no. somewhere mid-600k.

For someone that's not concerned about collectibility but does want reliability out of a near-antique pump shotgun, would someone please give me some pointers as to what the key areas are in evaluating this gun? I'm sure a "test drive" is out of the question so what should I be looking at, standing in the gun shop, to get an idea of whether this gun is broken down, or just broken in?

They want a cool $600 for it (damn cowboy action shooters) but it sure looks pretty...

Thanks!

[ReloaderFred]

There are several areas to look at. The first is the fit of the action to the barrel. There is an adjustment cog on the barrel assembly, and you want to make sure all the adjustment hasn't been taken up. If there is play between the two assemblies, continued firing will crack the frame. That brings us to the second area. Check the frame carefully and make sure it's not cracked.

Check the stock and forearm and make sure they're solid. Minor cracks in the buttstock can be repaired, but major ones can't. The nub on the end of the action bar can be worn off, or to the point that it won't bring the bolt forward to chamber the round, so check that.

Also check the magazine tube. A lot of them are rusted inside, or have broken follower springs. The spring can be replaced, and minor rust can be removed, but major rust might be more of a problem. Check the magazine tube for dents which would prevent rounds being fed from it.

Both assemblies should also carry the same serial number. If the gun has been carried afield a lot, it might be faint on the barrel half, but should still be there, just in front of the serial number on the frame.

The barrel has been cut, so make sure it's at least 18" from the face of the bolt to the muzzle, and that the bead was put on straight. Also make sure the muzzle has been finished off properly and there aren't any saw tooth marks left.

Also have the shop drop a chamber gauge into it, and see if it's chambered for 2 5/8" shells. Even the 2 3/4" shells of the day were roll crimped, which made them 1/8" shorter than today's star crimp shells. This is evident when modern shells are fired in one of the older short chambers and the crimps are all shredded after the first firing.

Offer the guy $400 for it and see what he says. I've got five Model 97's and haven't paid over $400 for any of them. Most were between $225 and $400, which was my Black Diamond Trap model. And I'm a Cowboy Shooter..............

Those are a few things to look for.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[DickP]

Great info-
Thanks!

[Bill B.]

One other thing to look for on a 97 is to make sure the "flag" on the bolt comes up and functions when the action is cycled. If it don't it can let the round come out the action at an angle and sometimes it can get centered on the primer by the right extractor. This happened at a local CAS shoot and scared the heck out of everyone. Split the receiver on the 97 when the round went off but no one was hurt. These are fine guns but they do have things that need to be watched for to make sure they run as safe as possible.

[ReloaderFred]

I forgot to mention rust in the bore. I've seen some that were pitted on the inside to the point the walls of the barrel were very thin. Minor pitting isn't really a problem, though. My wife's solid frame Model 97 was made in 1899, and the barrel is pretty rough, but it shoots good and she likes it. She shoots it in the monthly matches, plus other big matches we go to.

Hope this helps.

[kirbythegunsmith]

Bill, you are correct that the shell guide flapper should be functional, but I do not believe a frame was split from a shell firing when exposed in the ejection port. If you heard this from someone, they misjudged the situation. If you saw this, you mis-read the failure cause.
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Quote:
One other thing to look for on a 97 is to make sure the "flag" on the bolt comes up and functions when the action is cycled. If it don't it can let the round come out the action at an angle and sometimes it can get centered on the primer by the right extractor. This happened at a local CAS shoot and scared the heck out of everyone. Split the receiver on the 97 when the round went off but no one was hurt.
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A shotgun shell case (in fact, all cartridge cases, in general) that is unsupported by anything is a miserable container for any pressure development, and would split and fizzle at a very low pressure level. Those unconfined cartridge experiments have been part of history in Hatcher's Notebook and other articles.
If the shell was actually NOT in the barrel when it went off, the frame crack was already there but not noticed prior to this unfortunate discharge.

Otherwise, the shell must have been contained partially in the chamber and the bolt near lockup when some goof was slam-pumping the gun and had a early discharge prior to lockup. The firing pin block failure (or broken and jammed firing pin tip) comes to mind, and I have absolutely no doubt that the shell had to be inside the chamber to cause any blow-out at the ejection port. The frame crack could still have been there already, in that instance as well, since no excess pressure would have been developed beyond normal firing pressures.

I had one shooter that cracked his bolt in half by slam-firing his 97 for fun effect.
Slam firing is for (couldn't care-less) shooters to do on their own, not in the company of family and compadres at a shoot.
I believe the slam-fire technique needs to be banned at any CAS or other venue.
It is no smarter than wiring the triggers down on hammer doubles and cocking and releasing a hammer manually from the spur.

kirbythegunsmith@hotmail.com

[TomADC]

Norinco makes or at least used a copy that seemed to function just fine, cheaper than a original.

[Bill B.]

kirbythegunsmith

the shell must have been contained partially in the chamber and the bolt near lockup when some goof was slam-pumping the gun and had a early discharge prior to lockup.

The problem with the flag happened to a friend of mine at a CAS shoot I was not at and his 97 I never saw after the accident. He was naturally speed shooting it and slammed the slide forward and the AA round went off inside the chamber naturally at an angle since the primer was struck by the right extractor. Apparently the pin/screw that makes the flapper function was out of this 97. He told me it busted the frame and they sold what was left for parts. Scared him and the other shooters and you could not give him a 97 to this day. He went back to a SxS. Like I said I wasn't there but I don't have any reason to doubt that the frame was cracked when it was over or it would not have been sold for scrap.

[TomADC]

Not a great picture but:
http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL174/1021972/18168454/371015970.jpg

[bobotech]

600 for a cut down original? Seems rather high to me. I would say more along the lines of 350-400 or so. Takedown models are usually cheaper than the rarer solid frame models as well.

[MG]

Of all of the shotguns that I have owned over the years, the Model 97 is what I think about whenever someone says; "kicks like a mule."

[cpirtle]

(damn cowboy action shooters)

Careful, they do let us come in from the field from time to time :D


About the only thing I have not seen mentioned is the ejector. On the left side of the receiver there is a little pear shaped piece of steel with a screw through it and a bent tip. The tip protrudes into the frame for ejection and they do tend to break. This part is present in all but the oldest 97's.

Also, to add to what Reloaderfred said, if there is play in the assembly of the take down barrel you can purchase bronze shims for about $15. They do an excellent job of tightening a loose gun.

Seems these days almost everyone is asking north of $400 for almost any 97. Check the SASS Wire for some better deals and there is a guy selling a reblued one here now for $400. The days of decent 97's for $300 are long gone but you can still get a good deal with some dilligence.

[ReloaderFred]

Yesterday, I bought a fully restored solid frame Model 97 for $350.00. I wasn't looking for a collector gun, since I have 5 other Model 97's. This one is going to be a backup gun for my wife, since the solid frame guns have an inch shorter reach to the forearm than the take down guns do. This gun is intended to be a shooter.

This gun was restored by Duncan Gun Works, in San Marcos, CA, and they did a good job. The barrel was cut to 20" and the gun was reblued. My wife fell in love with it the minute she saw it.

There are deals out there on these guns, so just be patient and keep your eyes and ears open.

Hope this helps.

Fred