Anyone shooting the Newtons?


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.40 Newton
August 4, 2009, 05:59 AM
Hi

I am from Norway, and I am new to this forum, this is my first post.

I have always had a great admiration for Chas Newton and his cartridges. I have searched for info and components a long time, but here in Norway and the rest of Europe for that matter, there is very little to be found.

But finally, I will soon have a rifle finished chambered for the .30 Newton.

I wondered if anyone here had any field experience with the .30 Newton or any of the other rounds.

I plan to use formed 8x68S cases for my .30 Newton, original cases are impossible to find here. So I am looking for original brass if anyone has some. I have put out an ad in the classifieds.

When I have the .30 Newton finished, I plan to build a .40 Newton, I have ordered a reamer from PTG. Here I plan to use .375 Ruger brass, but it would be nice to try some .35 Newton brass too.

Also I have read about a .270 Newton, not made by Newton, but by Speer. Does anyone have some info on this round?

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Dravur
August 4, 2009, 09:48 AM
Sorry,

Never heard of the cartridge or the name before. I do like Fig Newtons though.

.40 Newton
August 4, 2009, 10:14 AM
Well, it's to bad that you have not heard of Chas Newton and his cartridges.

The man was a ballistic genious, in my view one of the most gifted ever in America.

But for some reason not many people know about him.

CoRoMo
August 4, 2009, 10:27 AM
I can't even find a reference on Google to Chas Newton.

Long magnums?

Do you have any ballistics you can give us?

What's the .30 Newton like? .300 Win Mag? .300 Weatherby? .308 Warbird?

And welcome to THR!

jim in Anchorage
August 4, 2009, 10:36 AM
Buffalo arms sells .30 Newton brass. Reformed from some thing else, they don't specify what.

telomerase
August 4, 2009, 10:47 AM
I can't even find a reference on Google to Chas Newton.

Next time don't put "Huey" in front of the search :neener:


http://www.reloadersnest.com/frontpage.asp?CaliberID=182

NCsmitty
August 4, 2009, 11:36 AM
Welcome to THR, .40 Newton.

Ammoguide.com lists the 256 Newton, using a .264 bullet and roughly based on the 30'06 case, the 30 Newton and the 35 Newton. The 35 Newton developed nearly 5000 ftlb of energy, more than the 375 H&H.

http://ammoguide.com/?catid=154

http://ammoguide.com/?catid=148

http://ammoguide.com/?catid=149


NCsmitty

.40 Newton
August 4, 2009, 11:55 AM
Thanks everyone.

First, there are many incorrect data reagarding the Newtons when it comes to perfomance.

The .30 Newton will outperform a .300 Wby.

I have a friend which has an original .30 Newton rifle from 1916 with a 24" barrel. He has a load with a 180 grs bullet, 77,3 grs R22, 3339 fps, original Western brass, 63000 psi.

Thanks for the link to Ammoguide. However the .522 casehead dimension is wrong. That is the minimum, orignial Newton chamberings give casehead dimensions from .525 and upwards, thus giving the possibility to use .375 Ruger brass to form cases.

The Newtons can best be compared to the "modern" short mags, the case is 64 mm long. However these rounds were created nearly a hundred years ago. I really can't understand why an American gunmanufacturer haven't picked up on the Newtons. They are far to good to be forgotten.

MikeHaas
August 4, 2009, 12:09 PM
http://ammoguide.com/gfx/web/cmprs/NewtonRounds.gif (http://ammoguide.com/?tool=bcompare&it=154%7c148%7c149%7c99%7c255%7c284%7c88%7c62)

Ballistic comparison:
http://ammoguide.com/?tool=bcompare&it=154%7c148%7c149%7c99%7c255%7c284%7c88%7c62

.40 Newton
August 4, 2009, 12:50 PM
Mike,

Thanks for the link, interesting to read.

Is this based on old data and powder, at least for the Newtons. And how is the case capacity measured, is it the whole case or up the bullet?

An original Newton case will hold 89,2 grs of water without a bullet.

Also I would say that the muzzle velocity of the Newtons are somewhat low.

I have a friend who shoots the .256 Newton, and he gets 3000-3200 fps with a 129 grs bullet.

I also think it would be possible to get higher velocities with the .35.

natman
August 4, 2009, 02:49 PM
As you have probably gathered Chas Newton and his rifles and cartridges are not well known, even in the US. Trying to shoot a Newton in Europe takes true dedication!

I helped a customer sell a 256 Buffalo Newton last year. I was tempted to buy it, but it was a bit to expensive.

Newton was WAY ahead of his time, a true firearms innovator. Too bad his business skills weren't as good.

Jim Watson
August 4, 2009, 03:10 PM
Sounds like the O.P. is a better source on Newtons than most of the stuff readily availble to us.

Since nobody makes real Newton brass any more - Buffalo Arms says Jamison does, but Jamison does not list it on their own site - I would have my reamers ground to suit the parent brass available instead of to strict historical Newton dimensions.

If I were to have a Springfield sporter built, I would likely have it in .256 Newton.

Big_E
August 4, 2009, 03:35 PM
Hmm, all I found on the Wikipedia was .256 Newton and it said the guys name was Charles Newton. But on Wikipedia not everything is correct.

Good luck with your project. It is always fun to get involved with not-so-popular rounds.

carpooler
August 4, 2009, 03:36 PM
I hope this will help cut through the static. Mr. Lonnie Hummel of Hornady went through the Newton-Ruger connection with me, over the phone, per a wildcat 8mm I'm doing. Charles Newton in 1912, I believe, did the 30 Newton. He had Germans build his rifles and load ammo. His idea was to have an undersized cartridge expand and fill a larger chamber to regulate the pressures transferred to the steel barrel. Now, much later, Herr Schuler got some ammo from RWS and did a proper German chamber with it as the 8 x 68 Schuler. No unnecessary expansion. When Hornady and Ruger got together, they found Newton's patents are still valid, and held by his descendants. So Ruger did a cartridge that actually fits the orig. Newton chamber diameter, with no expansion, ala the smaller diameter Schuler. This difference is the exact dimension of the H&H case's belt. Who would of guessed?? I think you can see that if you have the dies, the big Ruger Basic case will do a Newton case, but without the 1912 Chas' expansion factor. With the powders we have today, this is a dead on arrival issue, anyways.
FYI, my wildcat is being chambered right now, and while it has the exact same volume as the 8 x 338WM, and it apes the Schuler, but neither Schulers nor PMMs, 8 x 338's, will chamber. Using only 150gr. Hornady's, the 8 x 338 is probably better. With 200+, or the longer, lighter, solid brass Barnes's, I believe my cat will walk away from it. This fall will tell, when I can get the first of the three such rifles out in the field. All three test rifles are Mil Mauser 98's., with the orig. stepped barrels. Note that if you get the big round Ruger 416 Basic Cases, you will have to run them through a case forming regimen, of maybe four to six steps, but getting different calibers of Newtons with those same steps. The desperation way is to shoot the belted H & H cases, lightly loaded, four or five times until the belt is ironed out, but you still need reloading dies that reload a fired case from the Newton chamber. The belted Newton, or 30-338, 8x 338, 40x 338, gets around a lot of bother IMO. The 375 Ruger and the 416 Ruger won't quite fit, per those pesky patents, but now you should see that they are really just born out of the wrong side of the same old bed. Hope this helps. Carpooler

fatelk
August 4, 2009, 05:05 PM
I always thought the .30 Newton round was interesting, definitely ahead of it's time. I never understood why something like it didn't take off instead of the belted magnums.

I have an original Western .30 NEWT. round sitting on my desk right now, and have another one or two in a box somewhere. I didn't think they were very uncommon.

.40 Newton
August 4, 2009, 06:45 PM
natman: You are right, Newton was way ahead of his time. And it has taken me about six years to get the .30 Newton built. I have searched long for correct info and measurements.

carpooler: Interesting post. I have some questions. Where did you get the info about the undersized cartridge? I don't know if you have read the Bruce Jennings book: Charles Newton-The father of high velocity? Jennings was a Newton collector and shooter most parts of his life, and is reckoned to be the greatest expert on Newton. And his book is by far the best source for correct information regarding Chas Newton and his cartridges. And he does not write about any undersized cartridges expanding and filling up a larger chamber. I don't think this is correct. Jennings write that the various chamber dimensions shown in gun literature are taken from measurements of undersized Western brass. The Western brass measures .523-.524 at the casehead. Rem-UMC cases measures .526-.527 as well as NA.Co cases. The Speer brass is .526-.528. So I have my doubts whether this info is correct, this is the first time I have heard about and I have collected Newton info for a long time. I have also been in contact with most of the Newton experts which are alive today. Another thing, Newton never had the Germans load his ammo.

Also I question the patents being valid and being held by his descendants. I guess this were the patents for his cartridges or was it the Newton name?

Newton did not patent his cartridges, nor his name being used. He had seven patents:

1913: A powder and propellant for use in a firearm
1914: A bullet, or projectile, with a steel wedge or nail in the point
1916: Projectile or partitioned bullet (Look at the year...)
1916: Newton loading tool
1917: Double-set trigger for the Model 1916 rifle
1920: Projectile or partitioned bullet
1924: Double-set trigger for the Model 1924 rifle

So I don't know what the guy at Hornady are talking about. But I have my thoughts.

Kernel
August 4, 2009, 08:49 PM
An original Newton case will hold 89,2 grs of water without a bullet.

That makes it identical to the .300 Win Mag case, which holds 89 grs. Other big cases from competing cartridge families hold slightly more or less. It's not magic, people. Performance is all about powder capacity. Everything else, with minor exceptions, is just fodder for campfire argument. (.270 Win vs. .30-06, anyone?)

Newton was obviously a ballistic genius and decades ahead of his time. And, you have to admire the beauty and flawless execution of the rifles he created. But, unless your motives are entirely historical, or you are lucky enough to own an original rifle, IMHO, and with respect, going through all the gyrations to recreate Newton's obsolete proprietary ammunition is pointless.

dirtyjim
August 4, 2009, 10:24 PM
i've missed out on several newtons in the last few years. a day late & a dollar short most of the time. about 2 years ago i found one in cabelas gun library & a guy was filling out the paperwork at the exact same time i called them to say i'll take it. i've missed a couple of them on gunbroker too.
i am going to use his takedown system on a custom mauser sometime in the future.

Jim Watson
August 5, 2009, 01:52 AM
As to the oversize chambers, I once saw a reprint of an old article by F.W. Mann which criticized Newton for roomy chambers and bores to hold down pressure from his large volume cases.

.40 Newton
August 5, 2009, 06:08 AM
Well, this is why I asked if anyone had any experience shooting the Newtons...

There are a lot of rumours and heresay, but real knowledge comes through experience.

Sloppy chambers, no. This is due to measurements of undersized brass, Western brass. Western produced brass for the the big Newtons between the wars, and most of the measurements that are used in gun literature are taken from this brass. Just like the casehead dimensions shown at Ammoguide. .522 is the minimum, not the dimension that was used in the Newton chamberings. Even the Western brass will do good when it is fired and sized to the the chamber. Jennings writes about this in his book. He only had problem with the Western brass. The NA.Co brass produced by Newton himselfe, with .526-.527 casehead gave no prolems likewise with the Rem-UMC and Speer brass. So there ary no sloppy chambers, just sloppy dimensions in the brass being produced.

And yes, the .30 Newton has the the same capacity as the .300 Win Mag, but is has a better and more efficient case design.

MikeHaas
August 5, 2009, 12:12 PM
It's not magic, people. Performance is all about powder capacity. Everything else, with minor exceptions, is just fodder for campfire argument
Not exactly. The above statement infers one can simply fill up a large case with slow powder and go for it.

The determining factor is the maximum working pressure for a given cartridge. The .45-70 and the .450 Marlin have the same bullet diameter and almost exactly the same powder capacity, but the .450 Marlin far outperforms the .45-70...
http://ammoguide.com/?tool=bcompare&it=38%7c205
...it pushes its bullet 250 fps faster and yields nearly 600 ft-lbs more energy at the muzzle. Identical in bore size, nearly identical powder capacity but not even close in performance.

Look at the .38 Special and the .357 Magnum. The .357 is only .135" longer case and has less than 3 gr. more powder capacity (which is seldom used - the difference is in powder selection) but the 2 rounds are in different universes in terms of performance...
http://ammoguide.com/?tool=bcompare&it=48%7c37

It's not the powder capacity that matters, but what you fill it with.

Jim Watson
August 5, 2009, 01:54 PM
It is no particular trouble to load the .45-70 to .450 Marlin ballistics. Marlin just wanted something new to sell and to avoid the legal liability of dealing with reloads and small ammo companies like Buffalo Bore and Garrett.

The difference between .38 Special and .357 Magnum is almost entirely based on the greater strength of guns built for the Magnum.

Perhaps the prior post should have read "it is all about powder capacity in guns of comparable action strength."

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
August 5, 2009, 02:31 PM
Anyone shooting the Newtons?

Haven't had to in awhile - they learned to keep their stereo down after 10.

jackdanson
August 5, 2009, 03:20 PM
Anyone know how many newtons a 168 gr. bullet traveling at 3000 fps has. I don't have time to do the math now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton

Perhaps the prior post should have read "it is all about powder capacity in guns of comparable action strength."

I think MOST of us understood that.

Mr_Pale_Horse
August 5, 2009, 04:20 PM
Aha, someone who actually owns and shoots an "Adolph Express" (named for Fred Adolph, not the other one LOL).

I have not heard a Newton Cartridge mentioned for 20 years.

carpooler
August 6, 2009, 09:57 PM
Hope this helps,
Mr. Hummel presently runs the custom order desk at Hornady, and is a champion target shooter. Mr. Dave Kiff, of Pacific Tool and Gauge referred me to him. Hornady had to get the legalities correct, or be sued ala Rick Jamison vs. Winchester. The orig. Newtons had really thick case walls to do the 1912 expansion trick. The later Schulers used this same case wall thickness, but in a proper German chamber. The new Ruger Basics are the same diameter as the orig. Newton chamber, but too large for the derivative Schulers. This Ruger is one tough customer. The extractor rim takes a herky regimen, in the foming stages, without ripping out of my RCBS shellholder. I guess the real question about the 38 and 40 Newtons, is why bother, when the 375 and 416 Rugers are available off the shelves. Right now, everyone and his uncle is necking the 375 Ruger down. My effort wasn't to grab more power, but just to get an American case, that follows along with the general 8 x 68 Schuler, and feeds really smoothly through old mil. M98 Mausers, with the old stepped barrels. Interestingly, there's a baker's dozen of these 8 x 416 Ruger reamers, that Dave has sent to South Africa, but so far no one has tried what I'm up to. All three of these, the 8 x 06, the 8 x 338 Win., and my nascent wildcat, will get around the 150 gr. Hornady jumping over the long leade of the military 8 x 57 chambers. I feel that the PMM, or 8 x 338, is still the better bet, with the lighter bullets. It's only with the long brass Barnes, and the heaviest jacketed lead bullets , that my new 'cat' is designed to fill an economical niche.

.40 Newton
August 7, 2009, 02:17 PM
Well, I know Dave Kiff, he made my .40 Newton reamer...

And regarding patents and legality, there would not be any problems. Newton never made any patents regarding his cartridges or the use of his name. All the Newton rifles have the stamp "Patent pending", a patent had been applied for only, but Newton never obtained it.

More likely, Hornady wanted to take a good idea and put their own name on it...

And regarding the expansion trick, no again.

As I said earlier, I have done a lot of research before I got to build my .30 Newton. The reamer I am using is an original from the Newton facory, it once belonged to Bruce Jennings. The man I am borrowing it from has two original .30 Newton rifles and was a close friend of Bruce Jennings. He also have several other Newtons, and has been shooting and experimenting with them for a long time. His excact comment to this was: That's just baloney...no
truth to it at all. Some stupid rumor or misinformation.

So, sorry you are wrong. As I wrote earlier, real knowledge comes from experience. And I would rather listen to someone who actually has shoot the .30 Newton, and learned from that...

Mr_Pale_Horse
August 7, 2009, 04:40 PM
Here is some brass for sale, once fired:

http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=136569871

.40 Newton
August 7, 2009, 05:45 PM
Thanks for the link, let's hope he will ship overseas.

MikeHaas
August 20, 2009, 04:14 PM
Is this based on old data and powder, at least for the Newtons. And how is the case capacity measured, is it the whole case or up the bullet?

An original Newton case will hold 89,2 grs of water without a bullet.
AmmoGuide case capacities are calculated, based on a case full to the mouth.

There is no one "correct" value for case capacity. It is a GENERAL GUIDE only. An empirical measurement depends on many factors such as whether the case is "fired", "unfired", or "fired and sized" (and whether neck or full-length sized), whether the case contains internal "soot" or is clean, whether the primer cup is blocked or filled, altitude, temperature, brass thickness, brass manufacturer, etc etc etc. Because water is very dense (56,000 gr./gallon), such variables can cause much greater variation in measuring case capacity than is normally expected. Those who expect exact values for case capacities and try to define it to tenths of grains are involved in an exercise in futility, no matter how carefully they conduct their measurements.

The algorithms on AmmoGuide for calculating case capacities have been tested and found to be accurate and concistent from cases as diverse as the .22 Hornet to the .50 BMG. The REAL value of this approach is that ALL CASES ON THE WEBSITE ARE EVALUATED AGAINST THE SAME STANDARD. Because of this, AmmoGuide is one of the few places on the planet where case volumes can be compared consistently and without the abovementioned variables introducing comparison error.

.40 Newton
August 22, 2009, 09:47 AM
Mike: I understand what you say, but I also see that you don't have many data points on the Newtons.

As I said earlier, I have been contact with people who use the Newton cartridges, and with no exceptions, all get higher velocities than you list at Ammoguide.

I wonder, are your data based on old factory ammunition?

Pale Horse: Thanks for the link earlier, I got the Western brass.

Mr_Pale_Horse
August 24, 2009, 09:43 AM
Congrats on winning the auction and happy shooting :D

Elbert P . Suggins
August 24, 2009, 06:39 PM
I have always been interested in the Newton Rifle because my uncle had one when he fell off a cliff while coyote hunting and was killed many years ago. That gun was given to a neighbor because Grandma didn't want it around to remind her of the tragedy and the gun was lost in a house fire in the 60's. I recently found a 256 Newton at a gun show and purchased it and had a relative load up some ammo after finding 256 dies. The first 8 or 10 rounds were all timed at around 2800 to 3200 FPS and than we had a louder ignition which locked the bolt up and smoke was exiting the breach area and around the bolt. The speed was 4100 FPS and the bullet hit the target at such an angle it knocked the 55 gallon barrel down. We were unable to open the bolt so I took it to the local gunsmith to open it and check the damage. He opened it with a 2X4 and hammer and found there was no damage and said we were lucky because of the triple lug lockup. My relative said he couldn't have made a mistake in reloading but I seriously have me doubts. So I am a believer in the Newton and its ability to take the worst punishment that could have been administered to a wonderful rifle.

floridaboy
August 24, 2009, 07:54 PM
As I recall, Elmer thought highly of Mr. Newton's cartridges. As usual, that's good enough for me.

higene
August 24, 2009, 08:21 PM
The first rule in wildcatting is don't reinvent the .308. If you are looking for more power or distance read up on new amunition.

A 22 hornet gets 2600 fps; a 22 K-Hornet gets 2800 maybe 2900. Hornets used to be $25 bucks for 50 rounds. It costs $1.50 - $2.00 per round to shoot a K-Hornet and case life is short. A 223 gets 32oo fps for $ .25 a round.

With a wildcat you are going to spend a lot of time and money finding components and messing with loads. If that is your desire, have a ball. I have a .257 Roberts Ackley Improved that gets 3100 fps from a 120 gr Nozler partition bullet and yes it is accurate.

Fire forming 257 Roberts cases is as much fun at 2700 fps. It's just as accurate and the stuff you shoot with it is just as dead.

The .270 was originally a wildcat. Jack O'Conner's load of 60 gr of 4831 under a 130 bullet pulls 3100 fps.

Higene

countryrebel
September 3, 2009, 09:38 PM
We have a 256 newton and it is a VERY nice rifle. Set trigger and very well made and very expensive. I am almost to afraid to take it out hunting.

Maverick223
September 3, 2009, 10:14 PM
The man was a ballistic genious, in my view one of the most gifted ever in America.I am a bit weird and am a bit fond of J. M. Browning, Sam Colt, Oliver Winchester, E. Remington, et cetera...Newton doesn't make the list...but as was mentioned above he was a culinary genius...and didn't do too bad with the whole gravity thing either. On a more serious note the only Newton I recall is the .30, which IIRC is similar to the .300WM....but I may be very wrong. :)

256 Newton
September 5, 2009, 07:37 PM
Hello All, has anyone viewed www.suncoastgunclub.com
Pictures, case dimentions, modern load data, historical load data, Chas Newton history, cartridge case forming. A trove of stuff!! Check it out.

justashooter in pa
September 6, 2009, 02:10 PM
newton worked in a time in which chronographs were not common or of modern type, and without accurate pressure gauges. to get the performance he quoted you would have to exceed 50 Ksi by a long shot. his cartridges were overstated, this the opinion of writers as early as the '40's, such as phil sharpe, julian hatcher, etc. his creations are definitely a unique niche in American ballistic history, but they are not magic ju-ju.

Offfhand
September 6, 2009, 02:33 PM
So happens that I happen to have a Newton rifle in .30 Newton caliber. I also have some ammo but never had reason to fire it, as it's just part of my gun collection. As a point of history, the .30 Newton was originally named the Adolph Express, after it's actual developer. That was in 1913 or thereabouts. Newton later chambered his rifles for it and renamed the round. Ammo was made by Western Cartridge until they dropped it in 1930's. If anyone is really interested I can snap some pictures and post them here. The rifle has some interesting features but the ugliest dog leg bolt handle I ever saw.

justashooter in pa
September 6, 2009, 02:55 PM
prolly because it is a reworked P14 enfield.

Offfhand
September 6, 2009, 05:03 PM
LOL, reworked Enfield? Thanks for laugh, it's always amusing to get uninformed opinions from the uninformed.
Shoot well, safely and often...
Offfhand

.40 Newton
February 14, 2010, 01:34 PM
My .30 Newton:

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd273/Allan-lo/1004.jpg

Built on a left hand Ruger Hawkeye action, B&C stock and a Kongsberg (Norwegian) match barrel. The scope is a S&B 3-12x42.

I get 3200 fps with 180 grs North Fork bullets and 71 grs Norma MRP, original Speer brass.

52grain
February 14, 2010, 05:41 PM
So happens that I happen to have a Newton rifle in .30 Newton caliber. I also have some ammo but never had reason to fire it, as it's just part of my gun collection. As a point of history, the .30 Newton was originally named the Adolph Express, after it's actual developer. That was in 1913 or thereabouts. Newton later chambered his rifles for it and renamed the round. Ammo was made by Western Cartridge until they dropped it in 1930's. If anyone is really interested I can snap some pictures and post them here. The rifle has some interesting features but the ugliest dog leg bolt handle I ever saw.

Please do! :)

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