Tell my Dad why .22LR/.25ACP is no good for SD


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SuperMagnum
August 4, 2009, 11:50 PM
For some reason my Dad got the idea that he wants "a little .25" or maybe a .22 for a house gun. I keep telling him he needs to get a little pink dress to wear before he shoots it. His only reasoning is "I can hide it in my back pocket" and "If I have to use it, it will be up against the guy's head anyway". :banghead:

I'm sorry if there are any .25 ACP fans out there but I think this is one of the most useless rounds out there, and would trust a .22 for defense first. Most rational people don't use a .22 for defense either. I keep telling him he can easily get any gun that shoots .25 in something like 9mm or .380 and it would still fit in his pocket. And the situation of having the gun up against someone's head is never going to happen in real life. :rolleyes: We're talking about a very large man who can handle the recoil of a .44 Mag and probably hide a Blackhawk in his pocket...

So, could anyone besides me list the reasons why (or why not if you feel that way) a .25ACP makes a terrible house gun? I'm going to print this out and let him read it...(he still hasn't figured out that whole "internet" thing)

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3pairs12
August 4, 2009, 11:54 PM
25acp is better than a sharp stick. On the other hand there a lot of better calibers for home defense/ pocket guns. I like .38spl for small pocket size guns. Still pretty light on the recoil, cheap to shoot, bigger hole, ammo will be more readily available and cheaper(at some point) again.

CornCod
August 5, 2009, 12:00 AM
Its never worth arguing with parents. Suggest that he get a Walther P22 and shoot CCI mini-mags for practice and CCI Stingers out of it for self-defense. Just be happy the old guy shares your interest in firearms and don't worry that he never read Jeff Cooper.

CWL
August 5, 2009, 12:11 AM
Buy your dad a nice revolver in .38spl/.357mag, or a 9mm semi, or a 12ga., etc.

If you buy him something with a larger bore, hopefully you will preclude his need for that .25ACP.

SharpsDressedMan
August 5, 2009, 12:14 AM
My dad had a couple 12 ga shotguns, a couple .22 rifles, a Jap 6.5 he brought home from WWII, and an H&R 922 he bought for a "house gun" that he never kept loaded. It rested in a dresser drawer for all of the time he had it (we sons took it out and shot it a bit) except for the times he took it along hunting to finish off rabbits. He never used it in self defense. My friends dad had a .25 Colt that he never kept loaded in his dresser drawer, much the same as my dad. SO, I guess a .22 or .25 handgun might serve most people quite well (as most people will never have a need to use it.)

mljdeckard
August 5, 2009, 12:32 AM
This last month, my dad finally went to get his carry permit. At the last minute, my mom wanted to go with him. The instructor had her shoot to show proficiency, (instructor's choice, the state doesn't require it,) and she failed miserably, not having touched a handgun that I'm aware of in the last 25 years. So my dad is telling me this, and says; "I think I need to get her a .22 to carry."

I told him what CWL said above. That if she can't shoot a .22 well enough to save her life, it doesn't matter what you get her. The best, least intimidating way for her to learn and carry a viable SD gun, (besides continuing .22 practice,) is to get a 4" Ruger or Smith .357, load it with .38s, and let her learn her way up to .357 loads. He suggested going to a different instructor that wouldn't require the shooting test, and I said go ahead, BUT, she STILL won't be ready to carry. She has a LOT of learning to do, and (I bit this part off,) what he was teaching her obviously wasn't letting her hit the mark. A small gun CAN be a way to help a beginner learn, but if they can't even hit with that, they need ground-up training.

And I'm 100% with the OP. We have beat the hide off of this dead horse, and a lot of guys in here won't be convinced, but I will NEVER tell someone to carry something smaller than 9mm for personal defense. (If they're anyone I actually care whether or not they live or die.) Yes, you use what you have. Yes it's BARELY better than nothing. But if anyone gets a .22 and tells themself thatg they are done, trained and safe, they have NOT increased their chances of survival. They are going to be just as complacent about their TRAINING as they are about their GUN CHOICE. They are keeping it because they are unwilling to learn more, or too lazy to train, or both.

I agree with CWL, that if he had a choice, something bigger, like HE SUDDENLY HAD A MEDIUM SIZED REVOLVER THAT SOMEONE GAVE HIM, he might be more willing to shoot it, and realize that it isn't so terrible. I doubt there's a thing on the planet you could say to him to change his mind. You're going to have to SHOW him this one.

My father is also a large man, who just bought his first 1911. (A SA Mil-Spec.) He's been hunting and shooting his whole life, but NOT with defensive handguns, so he still isn't used to the recoil. I didn't tell him that a Glock .40 recoils a lot more. It's a question of what one is used to and perception of what is and is NOT bad recoil.

I suppose you might also say I agree with Sharps. A .22 or .25 is great......as long as you never have to actually use it. :) It's a security blanket, not a survival tool.

christcorp
August 5, 2009, 12:36 AM
Sorry Magnum, but I try not to lie to people.

David E
August 5, 2009, 12:41 AM
Any gun WITH you beats any gun not. That said, not all guns or calibers are equal.

If a .25 acp improves your odds by 5%, then that's still an improvement on the odds.

But, as you said, you can get .32's and .380's in the same size gun. Going with your Dad's "back pocket" criteria (poorly thought out as it is, since a "house gun" would rarely be found in the back pants pocket) then get him a Keltec or Ruger LCP .380 and a pocket holster and call it good.

If you have time and inclination, take him shooting and bring some better gun choices with you and see which one he likes. Remember, you're taking him shooting to have FUN......and hopefully he'll find one he likes. (if you have or can borrow a Raven .25 or Baby Browning, bring it. He'll realize pretty quick that the .25 isn't the only answer.)

Dr.Rob
August 5, 2009, 12:41 AM
Offer him two gifts:

One is a man purse for his .25 or .22

The other is a real pistol/revolver. You can pick up a Charter Arms or Taurus 38 on the cheap that will be a LOT more reliable than most 'cheap' .5's on the market.

mljdeckard
August 5, 2009, 12:43 AM
(My family gives me crap for carrying a full-size 1911 in a fanny pack, my 'man-purse'.)

zxcvbob
August 5, 2009, 12:47 AM
Get him a Beretta (Tomcat?) .32 -- it's one step up from what he's talking about. A Makarov might be a good choice, but that's about 3 steps up. (I'm looking at antique S&W Hammerless Safety revolvers; cute little things that would fit in a pocket real easy. Hold 5 shots of .38SW )

.22 is not as bad as you imagine, except the ammo sure seems unreliable lately. If he gets a .22, tell him to use CCI Minimags or better. They are the only .22LR I know of that goes "Bang" every time.

CWL
August 5, 2009, 01:00 AM
A least the Tomcat has a tilt-up barrel, but small guns are just a bad choice for primary SD, especially with people getting-on in years. Try holding, loading, racking the slide and aiming one of them, especially with arthritis and similar ailments.

Rather than arguing this with one's parents, I still suggest gifting them a better firearm.

Dr.Rob
August 5, 2009, 01:06 AM
Even if he's SET on a small pistol get him well made one. No reason to bet your life on a 60 dollar Lorcin/Raven etc when a Beretta is available. A Beretta will stand up to real practice, many of those cheap pistols won't.

You can also benefit from a 'full sized' .22 or at least a .22 Magnum that get significant benefits from a longer barrel.

WTBguns10kOK
August 5, 2009, 01:10 AM
Corncod has the best advice. You'd be wise to meet your old man where he is at.

bangkok
August 5, 2009, 01:30 AM
I think it's funny that most people believe you need a hand cannon for SD. IMO, most people will never need or use it in a SD situation, most burglers or muggers aren't hopped up on PCP and require a full mag of .45 (most are just opportunist) (sp?) and last, i've seen that just the sound of a single gun shot of any caliber sends people running in the opposite direction.

Oh yeah, I forgot, even a .22 or .25 round hurts enough to stop an attack in most situations as I said they aren't all whacked out on PCP, crack or a zombie.:)

shootistpd27
August 5, 2009, 01:36 AM
I have three letters for you. L. C. P. It the perfect pocket pistol and it wont weigh his pants down while it waits quietly to be called into service. Its amazingly accurate and relatively cheap. Its only about $325 retail. He wont be able to argue with its size, weight and caliber. However a 22 will kill the hell out of someone. I dont know why people act as if a 22 lr wont hurt the bad guy. If your so set against your dad getting a 22 or a 25, volunteer to take one of the small rounds to the but cheak, if its not so bad, you will just walk it off and he will buy a bigger caliber pistol.

David4516
August 5, 2009, 01:47 AM
The .25ACP isn't THAT bad.

It beats using a stick or a rock

I have a small Beretta model 950 "Jetfire" in .25, and I like it. My wife has one too. I know it's been said about a zillion times, but a gun in the pocket beats one in the safe. And nothing disappears in your pocket like a .25

It's not my first choice of course, but sometimes it's hard to carry something larger, and I'd rather have the little gun than no gun at all.

You could try talking him into getting two guns. A little Beretta for his pocket, and maybe a pump shotgun. Can't go wrong with either a 20ga or a 12ga and buckshot.

zxcvbob
August 5, 2009, 01:55 AM
I have three letters for you. L. C. P. It the perfect pocket pistol and it wont weigh his pants down while it waits quietly to be called into service. Its amazingly accurate and relatively cheap. Its only about $325 retail. He wont be able to argue with its size, weight and caliber. However a 22 will kill the hell out of someone. I dont know why people act as if a 22 lr wont hurt the bad guy. If your so set against your dad getting a 22 or a 25, volunteer to take one of the small rounds to the but cheak, if its not so bad, you will just walk it off and he will buy a bigger caliber pistol. I didn't recommend that one because the recoil is so nasty he'll never practice with it.

The .25 could break the skin and cause a nasty infection. :D
__________________
"Blow up your T.V., throw away your paper, go to the country, and build you a home" óJohn Prine

THE DARK KNIGHT
August 5, 2009, 02:21 AM
Ask your dad if he can describe a SELF DEFENSE situation in where you can hold the gun against someone's head. Explain to him self defense is legal, execution is not. The only situation I can think is if you're tackled or wrestling with an assailant with a gun in your hand. I'd rather not wait till I'm rolling on the floor with a maniac for my weapon to be effective.

There is no doubt 22/25 are lethal but, effective? no. Take him to a range and rent some compact 9's, he'll like them.

MarineOne
August 5, 2009, 03:05 AM
How about the Bursa .380 for this task?

It's small, easy to conceal, decent caliber size, and will fit in a back pocket or under a pillow rather nicely.

I think he justs wants a small semi-auto and the more commonly known varieties are the .22 and the .25. I wouldn't use a .25 because my aunt had one many moons ago that had a tendancy to go into "burst" or "full auto" regularly.



Kris

ThrottleJockey72
August 5, 2009, 03:22 AM
I wouldn't use a .25 because my aunt had one many moons ago that had a tendancy to go into "burst" or "full auto" regularly.
Sorry, that's just a stupid reason. The problem there was the gun, not the caliber. I think it is funny how for 30-40 years a .25 was a suitable SD gun, but now it suddenly isn't. Look, shot placement is the factor, not caliber. Besides, maybe he doesn't want to worry about over penetration and a stray bullet going through a wall and harming an innocent? I sometimes carry my .25 as my primary weapon, sometimes as a BUG, but rest assured, I carry it with confidence.
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m135/AxA_04/GunshowA26.jpg

sarduy
August 5, 2009, 03:58 AM
i would recommend to go to a range and shoot the .22/25 and a 9mm then ask him what he like the best... then.... get him a taurus in that caliber

http://taurususa.com/product-details.cfm?id=80&category=Pistol&toggle=tp&breadcrumbseries=SF1

http://taurususa.com/product-details.cfm?id=185&category=Pistol&toggle=tp&breadcrumbseries=

http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/p11.htm#

kyo
August 5, 2009, 05:12 AM
Mr SuperMagnum Senior, I am replying to your son's request to explain to you that the calibers that you have chosen to protect yourself with, while better then nothing, are horrible indeed. There are so many guns out in the world that would fit the description of what you are looking for. The best examples would be the Ruger LCR and LCP. The revolver and pistol respectfully are light, small and can easily fit into any pocket you want, even with a pocket holster. Other options include Kel-Tec 380, and a Desert Micro Eagle. All come in a 380, or 38 special variety that can and will do you better while still being very compact.

I do have to inform you that if you are ever close enough to an assailant that you can put a gun to his head, then you are in danger because he can stab you faster than you can get the gun to his head.

If you are worried about conceal ability then don't, because there is such a variety of guns for you in all calibers, even a .454 Casull which will blow a hole through a bear but is the size of your hand(well, maybe a scratch bigger depending on your hands). So, unless you want to carry a .50 Action Express, don't worry, the gun world has you covered.

Price is a different point of your decision I am sure. The usual price point for compact guns is from 300 to 600 bucks. 600 is high, since I don't shop for compacts. But, glock 39's do exist, and they are very small but pack a punch of a 45 inside them.

Since we are talking about a large man(you) then I don't see why a decently sized gun is an issue. I conceal a Ruger P345 and I am 5'10" at 145 lbs. Im shrimpy, and I can conceal a full sized 45 on my person. I am sure you can as well with a simple t-shirt. Most any gun can be concealed if you are creative enough. They even have concealable undershirts where you keep your gun beside your underarm in a slot, they have concealable underwear, and concealable plain looking clothes by specific manufacturers.

In short, quit being a wuss, and get yourself an effective caliber for self defense. I would prefer a 9mm minimum myself(if i can't have my 45), but the general consensus is a .380 is good enough.

From your young advice giver

Deus Machina
August 5, 2009, 05:21 AM
If he's anything like my dad, there's a trick to this.

Find a 9mm or .38 the right size for what he wants. Buy it for him, and just tell him it's cheaper.

Try pricing a decent .25 against a decent small 9mm. It's true.

Blakenzy
August 5, 2009, 07:29 AM
I think it really depends on the reasons behind his requirements. Obviously he wants a compact or subcompact pistol/revolver so that he can carry it around without hassle. As far as the chambering, he has expressed that he wanted something small(.22/.25). Try to identify if this requirement of his is due to a belief that small guns can only be found in those calibers, or because he dislikes big bangs. Take him shopping to see how small 9mms can go.

One thing, body size has nothing to do with enjoying or hating a stout recoiling weapon. Perhaps he really is recoil/blast sensitive...

...in which case a Beretta model 70 in .32ACP is an excellent compact, little (although not really a true pocket) gun. Very accurate and light recoiling. I sneered at it the first time one was presented to me, but a magazine load and one ragged hole later I was a fan. It is very pleasant and easy to shoot.

You see, the problem with getting a non gunperson a pocket .380 or 9mm is that their small size and light weight make them somewhat difficult to become proficient with. Having large hands might even compound the problem of getting a good hold on a tiny, stout recoiling pistol. Fact is that packing full size power in a teeny-weeny package decreases shootability, and in some cases might be downright unpleasant. So, when going sub-small, sometimes the milder caliber might actually be the wiser choice.

EmGeeGeorge
August 5, 2009, 07:30 AM
Get him to get a taurus ultralite in 22 mag...(8 shots) or an NAA in 22 mag with the 1 and 1/8 barrel

frankiestoys
August 5, 2009, 07:39 AM
If your dad is concerned about recoil/or his ability/size.
Maybe you could recomend a 380 that would be the smallest i would use for the home.
I dont own one but BERSA make a nice pistol.

KenWP
August 5, 2009, 07:41 AM
I have a Baby Browning and I shot a big sow with it out of the barn and she went right down and I figured she was dead. Did it right before lunch and after lunch the one fellow went to take her out to the coyotes and she woke up and walked away. I heard about that one for years afterwards. I never had problems with a 22 handgun in the same situations but 25 auto just seems weak to me.

Kleanbore
August 5, 2009, 08:08 AM
If I have to use it, it will be up against the guy's head anyway

Any CCW training in the area?

Drgong
August 5, 2009, 09:47 AM
You know your dad better then most, perhaps show him a "less expensive" gun that in say, .380 or a nice little .32 revolver? I am not in the school of thought that you need a .44 mag for self defense, but .32/.380 is the lower end, but one thing to remember.

a .22 in hand is 100 times better then a .357 in the safe!

jfdavis58
August 5, 2009, 10:40 AM
Your dad is working from a large number of misconceptions and twisted facts. Convincing him he is mistaken or out-of-date/out-of-touch (don't say 'wrong') with real facts will take some hands-on experiences. I speak from experience myself. My dad had a home defense .22 9-shot revolver that he was particularly 'proud' and 'satisfied' with. (sorry about the English) My brother and I are fond of our large caliber auto-pistols.

We got dad a range membership and offered to drag him along when we went out. We brought extra guns and ammo. We took cans, plastic bottles and paper targets. Dad brought his 22.

One of us laid out a nice selection of handgun on the bench while the other and dad scattered the targets downrange. We loaded up and started shooting. Our autos made cans and bottles jump and dance, big gaping ragged patterns tore up the paper. The little twenty-two did it's job and the cans and bottles took a lot of little hits but didn't jump much. Holes in paper had to be checked by going down range and looking up close.

It didn't take long for a frown to appear on dad's face. We both encouraged him to try anything he wanted but at first dad kept saying he was fine with his 22. The frown deepened and he increasingly glanced at the various guns on the table. We didn't push but began a sort of round-robin game of can you do this with that gun, pointing to one or another on the table. Our carry guns went into their holsters, and the 'play' began in earnest. After a couple challenges dad wanted in on the game. All are welcome!

Dad took a shine to a nice GP100 right from the start and by days end wouldn't put it down. A couple weeks later he had one of his own and was asking us to load him up some target ammo for practice. He had already purchased some adequate defensive ammo. Problem solved.

Today I would drop both a medium frame (GP) and a small frame (SP) revolver in front of someone like your dad. Then if he was my dad I'd buy him the one that put a smile on his face.

Joe Demko
August 5, 2009, 10:56 AM
Nothing will convince your dad of the ineffectiveness of the .22 and the .25 like seeing it with his own eyes. Borrow an example of each. In his presence, shoot yourself in the left foot with the .22 and in the right foot with the .25. Then vigorously dance about the room, singing is optional, to demonstrate how utterly ineffectual both rounds were. If that doesn't convince ol' Pops, nothing will.

qwert65
August 5, 2009, 12:39 PM
To be an accurate test he should shoot one foot with the 22 and the other with a 45 then ask his dad which one he wants to shoot his foot with!

Deanimator
August 5, 2009, 02:06 PM
The only advantage that .25acp guns typically have is small size. That's hardly a major consideration for a "house gun".

The major disadvantages they have are lack of stopping power, difficulty of accurate shooting (due to small size and crude sights), unreliability (in typical cheap guns) and limited magazine capacity.

Also, the ammunition tends to be quite expensive.

A used .38 Special revolver or 9x19mm semi-auto would be a MUCH better gun, and MUCH easier to fire accurately.

stoveboltgunnut
August 5, 2009, 02:10 PM
either one of them beat throwing rocks, and if they are all he is comfortable with then more power to him.

Quilbilly
August 5, 2009, 03:57 PM
If he is gonna carry a .22 he better have darn good shot placement. There are other pistols in larger calibers which are the same size as a .22.

Joe Demko
August 5, 2009, 04:07 PM
Where do you foresee a fellow getting shot with a .32 or .380 where identical placement with a .22 would fail?

mgregg85
August 5, 2009, 04:13 PM
Those calibers would be better than nothing but if you shoot someone with them they will probably get angry and come after you.

If thats all your dad is willing to use then I hope he is a very good shot, aim for the head/throat.

lions
August 5, 2009, 04:22 PM
I think it's funny that most people believe you need a hand cannon for SD. IMO, most people will never need or use it in a SD situation, most burglers or muggers aren't hopped up on PCP and require a full mag of .45 (most are just opportunist) (sp?) and last, i've seen that just the sound of a single gun shot of any caliber sends people running in the opposite direction.

Oh yeah, I forgot, even a .22 or .25 round hurts enough to stop an attack in most situations as I said they aren't all whacked out on PCP, crack or a zombie.

1. I assume you just have a .22 or .25 for self defense, if not, why not?
2. As far as how much it hurts, have you been shot with both? Do you realize that everyone handles pain and trauma differently regardless of drugs?
3. Are you willing to bet your life that you will never need your gun in self defense? And if so, why do you have a gun at all?

357mag.
August 5, 2009, 04:25 PM
If he want's a gun for house defense only (not going to want to carry)forget the pistol's,and tell him to get a 12ga.Load it with #4 buck,and you have the best "house-gun"money can buy.IMO anyway

Joe Demko
August 5, 2009, 04:26 PM
As it happens, I have carried a .22 for self-defense and still do from time to time. If we are going to obsess over people handling pain differently, then there is nothing that is dependably effective that isn't crew-served and with a bore measured in inches.

rcmodel
August 5, 2009, 04:38 PM
but if you shoot someone with them they will probably get angry and come after you.How many times does this have to be repeated about the .25 ACP?

13" to 16" in ballistics gel with a FMJ is certainly going to do more then just make them angry!
http://www.brassfetcher.com/CCI%20Blazer%20and%20Sellier%20and%20Bellot%20FMJ.html

As will 6"+ inches with 3/8" expansion!
http://www.brassfetcher.com/var25acp.html

If someone unloads a magazine in your chest, you will very likely fall down and die.

rc

Yo Mama
August 5, 2009, 04:50 PM
My take on it isn't necessarily the size of the bullet, but the platform.

With smaller bullets, you have less energy exchange in cycle ability. Some pistols are OK, but I'd not trust a .22 or .25 in an auto. Personally, I've had a few friends go with them, and on the range they took a quick dump. Last weekend in fact a guy had the Baretta, and it wouldn't cycle more than a few rounds before jamming.

SO, I'd recommend if the .22 or .25 is it for him, go with revolver.

.380 and up in a pistol will do you just fine.

lions
August 5, 2009, 04:51 PM
My point about pain is that bangkok seems to be counting on the pain to stop an attack. I don't want to count on that. The only things that will guarantee a stop are CNS hits and lack of oxygen caused by bleeding. Now I recognize that the sound of a gun shot might scare them off or pain might stop them but I'm not betting on it.

I know you can still get lucky with a CNS hit with .22 or .25 but if you're shooting a larger caliber a lucky shot would do the same thing. If you don't hit the CNS then a larger caliber will be more effective at disrupting vital organs and causing the attack to stop. I'll take a crew-served weapon with a bore measured in inches as soon as I can fit one in my holster. Untill then I'll take the biggest thing I can fit in my holster. I'll take every advantage I can get.

zxcvbob
August 5, 2009, 05:06 PM
One more thing; the man is what, 65? 75? He's lived this long without a handgun, what are the chances he'll ever really *need* one. And he thinks he wants a mousegun. If it will make him happy, I wouldn't push it too much. (But get a good one, not a cheap POS)

He does need to make sure he can handle something that small. Small cartridges and small guns are kind of fiddly. Have him at least try a J-frame S&W "Chief Special" or sheriff's model (don't know what models those are) If he decides he really wants a Jennings .22, as long as it's an informed decision be happy for him.

KBintheSLC
August 5, 2009, 05:12 PM
I don't agree with the OP. Let your dad get what he is comfortable with. I sometimes carry a 32 acp... not a real "blow your head clean off" type of gun, but enough to deter 99.9% of common cowardly criminals.

If you know you are going into a gun battle, bring a rifle. As for pistols, get one that you will carry all of the time. If it is a 25 acp, so be it.

Where do you foresee a fellow getting shot with a .32 or .380 where identical placement with a .22 would fail?
My sentiments exactly.

AgentAdam
August 5, 2009, 06:30 PM
The Ruger SP101 comes in .327FedMag and you can also shoot the shorter .32H&R,.32Long,and .32Short. Energies are better than .38 special and close to .357 mag. They come in nice factory loads like GoldDot,and HyrdoShocks.

1911Tuner
August 5, 2009, 08:06 PM
A .22 or a .25 is good for self defense. They're guns. They make holes in things. They've proven that they will kill. There have probably been more graves filled with the .22 rimfire than any other single caliber outside of war zones. That qualifies'em. Nobody wants to get shot...not even with a BB gun.

A .22 or a .25 isn't AS good as a heavier caliber handgun, though. Killing isn't as much the problem as in making an attacker understand that he's lost the fight, and now he has no choice except to crawl back under a rock to lick his wounds. There are a good many people out there who are perfectly capable of ruining your whole day after absorbing multiple solid hits...even eventually fatal hits...with a .22 or a .25 caliber handgun. If your father is unfortunate enough to encounter one of those, his main problem will be staying out of the recipient's way long enough for him to die.

Heavier calibers can fail to end an attack, too...but they don't fail as often as the little bores.

So...if his mind is made up, advise him to keep a pair of running shoes handy. He may need'em if things go wrong.

wally
August 5, 2009, 08:52 PM
But think how much faster follow-up shots will be over 9mm :) (often touted "advantage" of 9mm vs. .45)

Seriously, think of the mouse gun as a single shot 20 ga shotgun that fires serially and its not so inadequate against a single attacker. Most scumbags run off at the first shot anyways so any gun is way better than none.

--wally.

1911Tuner
August 5, 2009, 09:11 PM
Most scumbags run off at the first shot anyways so any gun is way better than none.

Bingo. The largest percentage of cretins who stage home invasions are abject cowards, and the mere show of force with a firearm will in all probability send them scurrying toward the door. If one happens to get shot, and is squirming around screaming for his mommy...he can count on the others...if present...to leave him to deal with it on his own while they head for the nearest safe haven.

On the very small chance that your father's house will be the target of a home invasion:

If your father can make rapid hits across a living room, and if the gun is functionally reliable, and if he will pull the trigger without hesitation...a good .22 will probably serve him well in the role of home defense firearm for 99% of the persons willing to come through the door while the house is occupied. For that 1%er who will become enraged when shot with a minor caliber...about the only thing that will stop him after that point is splitting his skull with a broadhead axe.

If the three outlined criteria can't be met...

Advise your father that a slide-action 20-gauge shotgun loaded with #3 buckshot would be about as close to ideal as he can get. A gunsmith can cut the barrel off to a more manageable 20 inches for a small outlay of cash.

doc2rn
August 5, 2009, 10:15 PM
As has been said, if he is gonna go with a .22 or .25 make sure he gets a good one Browning Buckmark or a Ruger MKII. Both are proven designs and when used with CCI stingers will provide the best results.
Someones Tag Line once said "a .22 to the head from across the street will surely ruin your day more than a miss from a .45" Take him to the range and rent some guns to see what he likes best. I would recommend a Ruger LCP for him. That is my bare minimum and I can even wear it with running shorts, it weighs nothing so it goes everywhere with me! Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.

ENCPirate
August 5, 2009, 11:16 PM
My dad wanted a 22 at first too, but I ended up convincing him to get a S&W airweight .38. Actually it was kinda luck the guy at the store had a good deal on one. Then after he shot my .40 he wants to go bigger. The best bet is like a bunch of people have said just take him out to the range and let him shoot a few different calibers and see what he wants. A 22 is still capable though and better then nothing.

bangkok
August 6, 2009, 03:30 PM
1. I assume you just have a .22 or .25 for self defense, if not, why not?
2. As far as how much it hurts, have you been shot with both? Do you realize that everyone handles pain and trauma differently regardless of drugs?
3. Are you willing to bet your life that you will never need your gun in self defense? And if so, why do you have a gun at all?

You assume a lot, these are silly statements.

Where are all of the people that have been the victim of this mystery invincable, wont stop for anything because he has to get you at all costs, super man bad guy? Why are they not chiming in and telling us how, thank God they had put two mags of .45 in this mystery guy and they finally put one into his head as he continued to claw his way at them? Not very many of them are there? And the ones that do exsist, have more to do with domestic violence and people you know. Those are the facts!

The magazines might tell you that this bad guy is for real, but the facts and statisics say that almost all attackers are oppertunists that look for someone weak and that burgalers look for a house that no one is home. The facts also say that just yelling/screaming and fighting back ends most attacks. I know, I know, so why do I have a gun at all, when I can just scream and fight back?

Most attacks end just at the mere sight of the victim with a gun, they don't stop to ask what caliber it is.

Dirty Bob
August 6, 2009, 04:27 PM
One thing with small .38 revolvers: the recoil can be nasty with "self defense" ammo -- from the perspective of a non-enthusiast -- especially with the lightweight guns. I load bevel-base wadcutters for small .38s, and the recoil is reduced.

I consider the .38 wadcutter to be a good balance between effectiveness and recoil. It's also the only .38 ammo I can get around here at the moment. Thank God I had a supply of primers stashed away! In a recent water test, the wadcutter went completely through four jugs of water (24+ inches of water) and stopped inside the fifth. This is the bullet:

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=100911&d=1246743622

Regards,
Dirty Bob

lions
August 6, 2009, 06:36 PM
bangkok:
And the ones that do exsist [sic], have more to do with domestic violence and people you know.

So you admit that the possibility exists but assume that it can't/won't happen to his father... who is being "silly"?

Most attacks end just at the mere sight of the victim with a gun, they don't stop to ask what caliber it is.

I'm not arguing that, I'm saying its not about the odds, its about the stakes.

1911Tuner
August 6, 2009, 07:02 PM
In the worst year ever, Winston-Salem, NC...with a population of 165,000 at the time...recorded 37 or 38 home invasions. Defined as forced or surreptious entry while the dwelling is occupied, as opposed to burglary/illegal entry...in which the dwelling is unoccupied.

Given such a small chance that a given home will be invaded, and that the chances of less than 1% that the invader will be the "monster" who can't be stopped...the odds for needing anything more than a small caliber handgun are pretty slim.

That said...lions is correct. It's not about the odds. It's about the stakes on the outside chance that the monster does come to call on this night...and that's what shotguns are for.

Nobody in his right mind will walk into a deadly situation with a pistol unless there is no other choice.
When I'm at home...there's always a choice. Make mine buckshot.

bangkok
August 6, 2009, 08:42 PM
So you admit that the possibility exists but assume that it can't/won't happen to his father... who is being "silly"?

Yes, of course the possibility exists (a brown bear could knock on my door also), but the facts show that the domestic violence I was speaking of is almost always a man against "his" woman or said man against her "new man". That seems to lower those already low odds for most.

And when that situation does happen, most people that carry end up either over reacting and shooting up everything and everyone (except the bad guy) or even more so, end up under reacting and never even draw. I mean, there are the real facts and then there are the magazines telling you the ballistics this and an attacker that, the magazines are trying to sell their sponsers expensive wares.

As for "silly", I meant the way you posed your questions in a school yard manner, that's all.

I don't want anyone to think I oppose larger calibers for SD, that's not the case at all. But, I wouldn't hesitate pulling out whatever I had at the time. If his father wants a pocket .22, why do we care, that's what he wants? It is a gun, makes him feel safe and will do it's job (as long as it's not a cheap pistol). I still would love to hear from any of the victims of attacks that you drew down on and the bad guy just kept coming. Police put themselves into the bad guy situation daily for whole careers and almost everyone of them never has to fire a shot, let alone unload 15 rounds of 9mm or whatever.

As for a home invasion, that is about being over powered by a number of armed "thugs". Most people wont have time to react in anyway, and supposing you did draw on them, you would surely start a gunfight, that would scatter everyone for cover. Your .22 or .44 magnum started the fight and disburst the group just the same, and the facts are in a wild gunfight almost all bullets miss their target. So once again, it wouldn't be the caliber but the gun. This is where a shotgun would be your friend, but either way, your out numbered!:)

makarovnik
August 6, 2009, 11:25 PM
Kel-Tec

lions
August 7, 2009, 03:46 PM
bangkok:
Yes, of course the possibility exists...
It is a possibility, you agree with me here.
This is where a shotgun would be your friend...
Bigger is better, you agree with me here.

That is the basis of my argument, we'll just keep going round and round about the chances of something happening when I've already addresed that.
I'm saying its not about the odds, its about the stakes.

I don't see this going anywhere so I'm out, have a nice day!

CoRoMo
August 7, 2009, 05:40 PM
I would recommend that you show him a ballistics chart/table, but if you do that, he might just say, "I told you so".

bangkok
August 7, 2009, 06:42 PM
You hacked up my quotes and took them out of context. But I give, you win, bigger is better.

I too, shall take my exit.

MICHAEL T
August 7, 2009, 10:26 PM
beretta in 25 is a nice pistol I have 3 of them and 9 rounds of 25 will ruin your day ball goes around 16" in jell test That is enough . 380 kelTec 9mm all these little pistols to much recoil with out practice He will try at range once and then stop with KelTec or LCP .
Help him find a beretta in 25 or a tomcat in 32.
People in this country for years and years have used the 22,25,, 32 auto 32 short, and 32 long ,for self defense in their homes or stores

remingtondude58
August 7, 2009, 11:36 PM
I would get him a small revolver (I like charter), or a Beretta 32

RDak
August 8, 2009, 08:08 AM
I don't think the .22lr is useless. But just tell him something like a .38 Special is still very easy to shoot and has much better power.

I don't understand why he is reluctant to go to medium powered cartridges?

He can definitely find J framed revolvers that he can hide in his pocket, as I'm sure you've told him. He doesn't have to use the +P ammo.

Just let him know that it is easy to control a small framed revolver after a little practice. It's no big deal at all IMHO. (I'm not talking about bullseye accuracy, you get what I mean.)

ETA: He could always go with a Seecamp in .32acp if he wants a small pocket gun that doesn't have alot of recoil (but gives him much more power than a .22.lr). You can order those direct from the factory but the lag time is about 5 months.

LightningJoe
August 8, 2009, 11:04 AM
Well, 22LR will do most of what any other caliber will do. You can afford to practice with it a lot, too. 25 Auto on the other hand is probably no better than 22LR and it's a pretty expensive caliber to shoot, even compared to other centerfire pistol calibers.

christcorp
August 8, 2009, 11:43 AM
I love these type of threads. Especially when the responses lean towards the many times said: "It's better than nothing"; "It's better than a sharp stick"; "It's better than throwing rocks"; etc... Maybe some people should just learn to realize the truth; that calibers like 25acp and 32acp are perfectly fine for personal self defense. Especially if it's a carry gun. "If you shoot someone with a 25acp and don't kill them, it's just going to make them made and they'll come after you". What a crock. When you pull a gun out on a would be robber, mugger, or rapist; (Those are the people you CARRY a gun against); they aren't there analyzing the caliber of gun you have. Hell; they were 99.9% sure you DIDN'T EVEN HAVE A GUN. If they thought you did, they would have found an easier target. And this isn't the OK Coral. You're not going to be having a "Shoot Out" where you need a 15-18 round magazine.

The moment you pull out the gun, one of 2 things will happen. The attacker will turn and run away, or he won't. 95% of the time, stats show that simply brandishing a weapon is enough to neutralize the threat. The other 5% of the time is where YOU DECIDE. I say you, because whether the gun is a 25acp or a 44 magnum; that gun ISN'T GOING TO SAVE YOUR LIFE. No gun since the beginning of gun powder has EVER SAVED A LIFE. "Guns Don't Save people - People Save People". And "IF" you decide to pull that gun out, it's not to try and "SCARE THE BAD GUY" away. If you pull the gun out and he leaves; fantastic. If instead he takes 1 step towards you; you need to pull the trigger. If you aren't willing to do that on the very first step he took towards you, you shouldn't have pulled out the gun. And the moment you do pull the trigger on the 1st round; 95% of the remaining 5% of scenarios, the attacker is going to leave. So that leaves 0.3% of the time where your gun can be a useful tool. And if you know how to use it. And are a DOBA shooter; "Dead On Balls Accurate". Then that 25acp to the face or throat is more than enough to get you out of a threatening situation. And after all; that is the purpose of the gun. To assist you in stopping a threat. Killing an attacker is just a possible side affect of the gun.

And yes, I have carried 25acp for protection. I really like military/police weapons. Especially historical and actual used weapons. So my main 3 carry guns are a walther PPK/FEG Clone (Have both) 32acp; a CZ-82 makarov; and a Sig P220 45acp. And I feel just as safe with any of the 3. I carry each one at different times depending on the time of year, weather, clothing, etc... And I feel just as comfortable because I know that the gun is just a tool. And that it's ME who is going to SAVE MY LIFE. Not the gun. And when you learn to use all the tools available, and stop relying on "The Gun"; the more safe you'll be. Of course no one wants to talk about the MANY TIMES where you can't get to your gun. Attacker got you from behind; possible car jacking where you weren't prepared; etc... There are plenty of times where your gun might as well be a cell phone in your pocket. Then what???

Anyway; original poster; if your dad is an accurate shot. If your dad has a reliable weapon. If your dad can calmly use that weapon. And if your dad has confidence when carrying that particular gun. Then good for him. You probably need to back off.

RDak
August 9, 2009, 09:22 AM
Any updates SuperMagnum after the members here were nice enough to give you their opinions?

RiverCity.45
August 9, 2009, 01:49 PM
I remember an incident from years ago that has left an impression on me.

Back then, I had a job in a county hospital, so we got our fair share of gunshot wound victims coming into the emergency room. I was an EKG tech back in the day before those machines could think for themselves. Anyway, one evening, two victims arrived. They had been in an altercation that led person A to shoot person B with a .22. Person A emptied his mag into person B, but person B just kept on coming, took the gun away from person A, and pistol whipped him about the head with the empty weapon.

Person B - with 6 bullets in him - was treated and did not require hospitalization. He was a big, beefy guy that was built like the stereotype of a Hell's Angel biker. All that beef/fat just caught the bullets without penetrating far enough to strike an organ.

Person A - with severe skull fractures and brain swelling as a result of the beating - was in a coma at the time I saw him. Don't know what ultimately happened to him.

Another incident that sticks in my memory.

A distraught person walked up to the entrance to the ER, pulled out a .22 pistol, placed it against his right temple, and fired. The bullet went into the brain, struck the other side of the skull, and bounced back, creating a second path of brain destruction. He died.

Sometimes it's not about caliber. Sometimes it's about distance from the target and what the bullet hits.

lanternlad1
August 9, 2009, 02:07 PM
I remember an incident from years ago that has left an impression on me.

Back then, I had a job in a county hospital, so we got our fair share of gunshot wound victims coming into the emergency room. I was an EKG tech back in the day before those machines could think for themselves. Anyway, one evening, two victims arrived. They had been in an altercation that led person A to shoot person B with a .22. Person A emptied his mag into person B, but person B just kept on coming, took the gun away from person A, and pistol whipped him about the head with the empty weapon.

Person B - with 6 bullets in him - was treated and did not require hospitalization. He was a big, beefy guy that was built like the stereotype of a Hell's Angel biker. All that beef/fat just caught the bullets without penetrating far enough to strike an organ.

Person A - with severe skull fractures and brain swelling as a result of the beating - was in a coma at the time I saw him. Don't know what ultimately happened to him.

Another incident that sticks in my memory.

A distraught person walked up to the entrance to the ER, pulled out a .22 pistol, placed it against his right temple, and fired. The bullet went into the brain, struck the other side of the skull, and bounced back, creating a second path of brain destruction. He died.

Sometimes it's not about caliber. Sometimes it's about distance from the target and what the bullet hits.

I remember a young man with a Jodie Foster fetish almost killing a president, a secret service agent and James Brady with a .22.

I remember RFK was killed with a .22

I've seen countless stories on the news where people have been killed with a .22

That said, shot placement is everything.

If your dad is insistent on getting a .22, let it be a .22mag.

Show him this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Lo2yfwk1mw

JR47
August 9, 2009, 03:43 PM
The father of the OP is going to buy what he wants. The man is old enough to have actually experienced life.

There are literally tens of thousands of .22, .25, and various iterations of .32 and .38 cartridges besides the .38 Special, in drawers of desks and dressers throughout the country. Over 99% of them have never been used in anger. Why? Because the VAST majority of us will never NEED a gun.

It's fine to snort and ask why you have a gun, then, but pretty dumb. Why do you have hospitalization, or insurance, or a spare tire, or even a spare quart of oil? After all, you'll likely not need them, either. Is there a minimum required level for any of them? You know, relevant to the "minimum caliber" idea?

The fact that someone possesses a gun, of whatever caliber, is their business. Face it, the chances of needing it are vanishingly small. Then, there's the documented fact that just showing a gun many times ends the criminal activity. Or the report of a round causing the bad guy to leave, post-haste. The object is more to HAVE a gun, and show that one is willing to use it, than the caliber.

I would attempt to convince him to choose a heavier caliber, as well. However, getting him into a gun that he'll shoot is more important than ballistics. You can't miss fast enough to save your life.

As far as 9mm goes, it's a nice caliber for the barely trained to shoot the reluctant with. Everybody leaves on their own two feet, feeling like they learned a valuable lesson.

Self-defense begins with a "4" in it's caliber. See, it's not at all hard to denigrate any choice.:rolleyes:

sig87
August 10, 2009, 12:08 AM
To me a 25 that you will carry is better then a 45 that is to heavy that some people wont carry.

cook45
August 10, 2009, 12:19 AM
tell him to look into kahr, or kel-tec pf 9, especially the kel-tec. tell him to check out the police takedown rates per caliber...there out there. in fact I still have a packet with some of those stats (if you interested in them) from my concealed carry test. Its scary what a difference caliber will make. showed my mom the same stats...the next week she bought a .45 filled with hydrashoks.

Carl Levitian
August 10, 2009, 09:05 AM
These discussions would be a bit funny if it were not for the potencially dangerous opinion some less than smart people would get.

Too many people get the idea that a .22 is a joke from reading what some keyboard comandos and gun magazine gurus spout. It's a firearm, and it's deadly, and it will kill you. I wonder if that idiot who wanted to put a hole in the wall for his TV dish wire and used a .22 that went through the wall and killed his wife, had the opinion that a .22 was a joke.

In 40 years of reading The American Rifleman and the Armed Citizen collum, I have never seen a single incident of any gun failing to stop a home invasion or robbery. The insidents covered by the American Rifleman range from 12 gauge shotguns to .22's and most things in between. In ALL cases, once the homeowner has a gun, ANY gun, the criminal flees. In all cases were the criminal is shot, he flees out of the house to drop dead down the street, in the yard, or seeks medical attention and is arrested. No matter what the gun he's shot with. With few exeptions of a shotgun at close range, it seems like most handguns don't instantly drop the the criminal, but once shot, the criminal puts 100% of his energy into getting out of there, not staying and shooting it out with a homeowner. They even covered a story of an elderly couple who were invaded and tied up on the bedroom floor, while they ransaked the house. The man got free of the bonds and grabbed a .22 rifle from the bedroon closet and chased off the criminals. The rifle was not even loaded.

A .22 is a deadly weapon and is very capable of defending your home if used well by a competent shot. The original posters father has made it this far in life, it's a little insulting to try to convince him of the errors of his ways, in that he's doing just fine. If he wants a .22, fine, get him a good .22 revolver and take him shooting alot so he's good with it. Because of the priming issue in a rimfire, I would be carefull to get him a revolver, so if nothing happens, the trigger can just be pulled again. A Smith and Wesson 317 with the three inch barrel will make him a fine house gun. He's not going to be interested in the young gun nuts fantacy of standing off a horde of crazed hells angles or chinese paprtropers, or the mythical 250 pound crack addict that looks like Conan the Barbarian. He does not read Guns and Ammo magazine or any other of the gun rags, and does not know he's not ready for a fierce firefight. But with a .22 revolver he has used and practiced a lot with, he'll be just fine if something goes bump in the night.

jackstinson
August 10, 2009, 09:20 AM
He's not going to be interested in the young gun nuts fantasy of standing off a horde of crazed hells angles or Chinese paratroopers, or the mythical 250 pound crack addict that looks like Conan the Barbarian.
You have neglected to mention the ubiquitous zombie-bears. The TRUE test of a home/self-defense weapon; "How many zombie-bears per magazine load can be put down?"
NOTE: Please check with your local police for zombie-bear hunting regulations and seasons.

BTW- Most "dads" are older and have a tad more life experience than their well-intentioned sons. Suggest some pistols, then let dad pick out his own gun. If you disagree with his choice...relax...it won't be the first (nor the last) time you will disagree.

mustang_steve
August 10, 2009, 09:22 AM
If your dad has arthritis or other joint issues, then a .22lr is probably the best bet.....what hurts theleast to shoot is going to be the gun he's going to be most like to practice with, thus be the most proficient with.

Either way, it meets rule1.

If you want to get him a better gun, perhaps a Guardian in 32NAA? It's a nice blend of size and power (although pricey).

orionengnr
August 10, 2009, 10:30 PM
"I can hide it in my back pocket"

I can hide two quarters in my back pocket. Bart Simpson keeps a slingshot in his back pocket.

So what? Neither is suitable for self defense.

Please point out to him that he can also keep an LCP in that same back pocket, and it at least is a marginally effective self defense round.

As I've said before, I hope I am never in a gunfight. But if I am, I hope to Hell my opponent is using a .22, .25, .32...because I will be using a .45, and I sure like my odds in that match-up. :)

Joe Demko
August 10, 2009, 10:47 PM
Your .45 doesn't make you bullet-proof; as I hope you do not find to your sorrow should you run into a .22-toter with the will to shoot first and the skill to place it well.

christcorp
August 11, 2009, 12:38 AM
Carl Levitian; thank you for restoring common sense and faith. The whole: "Shooting someone with a 22, 32, 380, etc... is just going to p iss off an attacker" is such a crock. Any criminal that comes after you on the street or in your house (Assuming they believe you are home), is 99% assuming that you aren't armed. If they thought you were, they wouldn't even be messing with you. They'd instantly be looking for an easier target, which there are thousands of. The minute you resist, with a gun, you've forced the criminal to concentrate on that 1% that he was betting against. His gun, if he's got one, is intended for intimidation. (His intention is to rob or rape). You gun if carried, is (Should be) for defense and for shooting him. It's not for intimidation. And the criminal knows this. They will flee. Especially considering that they have absolutely no idea what caliber the gun is in the first place. And I doubt they are going to stick around just to find out what caliber it is.

kludge
August 11, 2009, 12:04 PM
If he wants a "back pocket gun" show him a Kel Tec P-3AT and a Ruger LCP.

Fryerpower
August 19, 2009, 12:51 PM
I have been doing a LOT of research latey. A mouse gun for me (primary in my shorts in the summer, backup in the cool weather), a carry weapon for my wife (29 years old for the last several years), and a carry weapon for my mom (60-ish).

For my mom my brother and I are buying a S&W Airweight 642. It is a J frame .38 special. She can't wait. If she does not like it I will buy it from her for myself. I love the way it slides into my pocket. You can't tell you are carrying. It is 'hammerless' so you cannot snag the hammer when pulling it out.

My wife is going to shoot it to see if she likes it. I may end up buying two of them! Start with non +P ammo to get used to shooting. Shoot a few +P once you are ready. Carry +P for the real deal.

I'm leaning toward an LCP (.380) or a Kel-Tek .32 for my mouse gun. I carry a Makarov 9x18 on my person in cooler weather and in the car in hot weather. For a house gun we have a Ruger P85 MKII (9mm) with 15 round magazine in it, an 18 round magazine next to it, and a 31 round magazine next to that.

These are great pages to read up on:

Revolvers for older people or people with limited use of their hands.
http://www.snubnose.info/docs/age.htm

Why carry?
http://www.snubnose.info/docs/why_carry.htm

Lots of info about snub nose revolvers.
http://www.snubnose.info/

Tactics.
http://www.snubnose.info/tactics.htm

-Jim

stchman
August 19, 2009, 01:30 PM
While .25ACP and .22LR are not powerhouses there are a lot of people that carry those little NAA revolvers for CCW. They are very small and are better that having nothing.

Either caliber is capable of doing a fair amount of damage if you hit the assailant in the right spot.

A better CCW gun would probably be a sub-compact 9mm like a Glock 26.

SwampWolf
August 19, 2009, 02:05 PM
Buy your dad a nice revolver in .38spl/.357mag, or a 9mm semi, or a 12ga., etc.

And get one you really like. That way, when he turns it down, you'll have a nice addition to your collection. :evil:

m2steven
August 21, 2009, 07:19 PM
because unless you hit someone in the head or the heart, it's probably not going to get the job done.

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