Out of state Gun sales


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strikr167
August 6, 2009, 08:47 PM
Hi, I have a question about out of state gun sales. I am going to make a hypothetical scenario. I know that every state has its own laws regarding out of state gun sales. Say for instance, I am the gun dealer and am located in NY. A customer walks in to my store and wants to buy a long gun, but he is a Florida resident. Can i sell him the gun legally? I did some research and found out that Florida residents can only buy long guns out of state, if the state they are buying in is what they call a "contiguous" state, meaning a state that shares a border with. Now, most customers dont know this and if I wanted to be dishonest I could sell all the guns I want to out of state residents, because there are currently no NYS laws prohibiting or restricting the "sale" of long guns to out of state residents, as far as I know.

QUESTION: Even if there was a NYS law stating I must know the other states law during a out of state resident sale, what laws have I technically broken? Technically, I am not responsible because I have not broken any NYS laws. The only law that was broken was a "Florida" law restricting the "purchasing" of an out of state long gun, which the customer broke. He is responsible for knowing his states laws. I, as a dealer, am not responsible to know any other states laws regarding firearms sales, legally. (It is not morally right, again I am just speaking hypothetically) Are we both responsible, or just the customer? Can i be held reponsible for breaking a Florida law, isn't that out jurisdiction, so to speak? I have another

QUESTION: Say i make this sale to the Florida resident. I put the 4473 form in my legal bound books which show the resident's address being Flordia state with a Florida ID. When the ATF comes in to do a random check (which is normal) they go through all the 4473 forms to look for any illegal activity, human errors and/or mistakes. No red flag would be waved when the inspector comes across the Florida resident. WHY you ask? Although ATF agents are FEDERAL, each state has their own bureau. The agents in that bureau only know the ATF laws of the state that they are inspecting in. It is impossible for 1 agent to know all 50 states ATF Laws, since they vary from state to state. If I have a FFL dealership in NY, that means a few times a year ATF agents who are trained in (correct me if I am wrong) "U.S. Gun Control Act" and "NYS Penal Code" will seize my books at random and check for inconsistencies.

Since, there are no NYS laws restricting/prohibiting the sale of long guns to non-contiguous out of state residents I have not broken any NYS laws according to the ATF agent. The ATF agent closes my books, says "Have a nice day, Sir everything seems fine here." and walks out the door. The ATF agent would never follow up on the Florida resident gun sale because she is only legally trained in NYS Law and is not concerned with Florida Law, its not her problem, its like they have blinders on. Laymans terms - they are only concerned with what concerns them and I ave seen it probally a million times. Since there is no registration process on long guns there is literally no paperwork or notification of any kind sent to Florda state to notify them of the sale. IT GOES COMPLETELY UNNOTICED!!!

Who would ENFORCE or regulate gun dealers from selling to out of state residents.The only way I could imagine that anyone would find out about this is if somebody was killed with this gun and some lawyer starting digging around. Otherwise, as they say "it is what it is". Pretty messed up, right? I would love to find out what people thought about this and any feedback or help woul dbe greatly appreciated, especially in regards to this QUESTION in particular, am I legally REQUIRED to know the laws of the out of state resident's state when making the sale? Thank you very much.:confused:

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NavyLCDR
August 6, 2009, 09:03 PM
1. You are incorrect about Floridians only being able to purchase in contiguous states. They may purchase long guns from FFLs in any state where the sale in the seller's state is also legal, such as New York.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0790/SEC28.HTM&Title=-%3E2009-%3ECh0790-%3ESection%2028#0790.28

790.28 Purchase of rifles and shotguns in contiguous states.--A resident of this state may purchase a rifle or shotgun in any state contiguous to this state if he or she conforms to applicable laws and regulations of the United States, of the state where the purchase is made, and of this state.

The above statute specifically PROHIBITS NOTHING.

See the August 2004 FFL Newsletter:
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/newsletter/ffl_newsltr_aug04.pdf


2. You are incorrect about FFLs who sell long guns to out of state residents not having to know and abide by the laws of both states.

18 USC 922 (b)(3):

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00000922----000-.html

(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver—
(3) any firearm to any person who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the licensee’s place of business is located, except that this paragraph (A) shall not apply to the sale or delivery of any rifle or shotgun to a resident of a State other than a State in which the licensee’s place of business is located if the transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States (and any licensed manufacturer, importer or dealer shall be presumed, for purposes of this subparagraph, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, to have had actual knowledge of the State laws and published ordinances of both States), and (B) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;

To be completely honest, I didn't read to the end of your original post... but I hope the above helps answer your questions.

BTW, in addition, all the states' laws (although almost 4 years old), are here:
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/statelaws/28thedition/index.htm

dullh
August 6, 2009, 09:07 PM
Yeah well all that legal mumbo-jumbo crap aside if the dealer in NY doesn't want
to sell to a FL resident, he ain't going to! Legal or not, the out of state dealer can't
be forced to sell because I guarantee you most dealers 1)don't understand the law
and 2) play CYA.

NavyLCDR
August 6, 2009, 09:39 PM
OK. I read to the end.

I would love to find out what people thought about this and any feedback or help woul dbe greatly appreciated, especially in regards to this QUESTION in particular, am I legally REQUIRED to know the laws of the out of state resident's state when making the sale? Thank you very much.

Yes. IF you, as a dealer, sell to an out of state resident, you are required to know their state laws and abide by them. Wal Mart makes it easy. Each Wal Mart that sells long guns has a map with green and red states - and that map is customized for the state the Wal Mart store is in. They can sell to residents of the green states with no additional requirements. They just don't sell to the red states.

When I stated above that you were incorrect in your assumptions, I didn't mean that to be knocking you for anything - just that the information was incorrect.

Art Eatman
August 7, 2009, 12:00 AM
Paragraphs are your friend. Unintelligible monstrosities are often closed.

strikr167
August 7, 2009, 04:18 PM
In response to:Quote:
790.28 Purchase of rifles and shotguns in contiguous states.--A resident of this state may purchase a rifle or shotgun in any state contiguous to this state if he or she conforms to applicable laws and regulations of the United States, of the state where the purchase is made, and of this state.

The above statute specifically PROHIBITS NOTHING.

The statute above does prohibit non-contiguous gun sales otherwise the statute would be superfluous.Why even have that statement unless you are indicating that the otherwise would be illegal. The people that makes these laws dont waste time and ink to state the obvious. I have even spoken to a lawyer about this and he said that even though the statement doesnt prohibit anything, it does set a standard for the sale firearms to out of state residents, any sales to out of state residents that dont follow the standard set above would be breaking that standard/law. A law doesnt have to use the words MUST/PROHIBIT/RESTRICT to actually mean must, prohibit, or restrict. Why must a Florida resident "conform" to the laws of his/her state and the state of purchase "only" in a contiguous state. Does that mean that when your buying ina non-contiguous state you dont have to follow, US law, state of purchase, and state of residence law. Of course not, everybody knows that, but then why specify "contiguous" at all. Why not then just say "out of state", unless youre specifying the method of how to legally purchase a gun out of state, which the statute unclearly indicates.

NavyLCDR
August 7, 2009, 04:57 PM
strikr167,

Did you read the August 2004 ATF Newsletter to FFLs that I posted the link to? You obviously did not. If you know all the answers, why did you ask a question?

Since you don't want to go look at the August 2004 ATF Newsletter, I will post the applicable contents so that others may read for themselves what the truth actually is as stated by the government agency themselves:

CONTIGUOUS STATE – PART 2

In an article that appeared in the December 2002
edition of the FFL Newsletter, we advised FFLs
that the “contiguous state” provisions of the Gun
Control Act were amended in 1986, and that the
GCA allows dealers to sell or dispose of a long
gun to a resident of another state provided, (1) the
purchaser was not otherwise prohibited from
receiving or possessing a firearm under the GCA,
and ( 2) the sale, delivery and receipt fully comply
with the legal conditions of sale in the buyer’s and
seller’s States.

The condition of sale relating to compliance with
the applicable laws of both States cited above
continues to cause confusion among dealers,
particularly among those dealers who conduct
business in a State whose laws presently contain
language that allows “contiguous state” sales.
Historically, prior to the 1986 amendments to the
GCA, many States enacted provisions in their laws
that allowed their residents to acquire a long gun in
a contiguous State. For the most part, these State
law provisions were modeled after the contiguous
state provisions of the GCA. However, even
though the GCA was amended in 1986 to allow
the sale of long guns to residents of any State
pursuant to the conditions cited above, many States
have not yet amended their laws to reflect similar
language. ATF takes the position that if the laws
of a given State allow its residents to acquire a long
gun in a contiguous State, those laws also allow its
residents to acquire a long gun in any other State
where the laws of that State permit such
transactions, unless the language contained in that
State’s law expressly prohibits it residents from
acquiring a firearm outside that State. Questions
regarding particular State law provisions should be
referred to your local ATF office.

I would recommend that you direct your questions to your local ATF office rather than waste your money on a lawyer who is feeding you a bunch of opinion based doo-doo.

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