Guy with Gun at Tampa Town Hall Meeting


PDA






Yoda
August 8, 2009, 12:41 AM
I was at Representative Castor's Tampa Town Hall meeting in Tampa last night, and I was one of the guys at the "battle of the door" that's been on TV. I'm even on some of the U-tube and TV video.

Before they opened (then closed) the doors, I saw a guy wearing a vest, and it was as obvious as anything that he was carrying concealed. I made my way to him and quietly said, "You're carrying, aren't you?" He gave me an odd look and asked why I thought so, and I told him that he was wearing the same vest I wear when I'm carrying. He said something about liking the vest, then moved away and slipped inside the hall.

He later took up a commanding position at the door. After the fight to keep the door open, some plainclothes police officers came out and kept everyone away from the door. The only thing they had to identify themselves as cops was a badge on the belt, and the badges didn't get exposed until that moment. I talked with them, and explained that until they displayed a badge and identified themselves as policemen, I would would see no reason to treat them with any sort of deference.

As far as I know, the guy I ID'ed never displayed a badge, which makes me wonder if he was some private security guy, or just a union thug. It's also possible that he was, in fact, a cop.

I later talked with a senior police officer outside the meeting hall, and we had a very friendly discussion on CCW. We agreed that the Town Hall venue didn't fall within any of Florida's prohibited categories for concealed carry, but he said that if the organizer had announced before the meeting that concealed firearms were prohibited, then anyone with a CCW would be obligated to leave. I suspect he'll recommend that future meetings like this include such announcements.

One thing that bothered me was the large number of police officers (or secret service?) who were not in uniform and who could not be identified as sworn officers. What would be the impact if I got into a shoving match with someone who appeared to be a civilian, but then identified himself as a cop?

At any rate, below is a photo of the guy with the concealed firearm. You can see his vest in this photo, but you can't see the bulge under the vest at the 4:00 o'clock position. In case he's a real cop, i've covered his face. I'm hidden behind the guy with the beard.

BTW: EVERY cop that identified himself as a cop treated us regular folks with extreme courtesy, even though a small number of hotheads at the door turned their anger towards the cops and gave them a lot of verbal abuse. The Tampa police force did a very good job. There were two guys at the door who acted like real goons, but i never saw whether they were cops, and I suspect they weren't.


102970

- - - Yoda

If you enjoyed reading about "Guy with Gun at Tampa Town Hall Meeting" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Eightball
August 8, 2009, 12:44 AM
That vest does flare out in an odd fashion on his right hip.....

Dave P
August 8, 2009, 06:39 AM
"I saw a guy wearing a vest, and it was as obvious as anything that he was carrying concealed. I made my way to him and quietly said, "You're carrying, aren't you?""

What the heck business of yours is it anyway? You should have left him the f alone. I hope you don't call yourself a 2nd Amend supporter - cause you sure don't act that way.

61chalk
August 8, 2009, 07:33 AM
I think if the guy was a cop, he would of had that Bulge under better control, better
concealed. In any case, he wasn't breaking any laws as you later stated....did you also ask him if he had a swastika also....?....are you going to report him to Obama an the White House...?

3pairs12
August 8, 2009, 07:49 AM
I hope you don't call yourself a 2nd Amend supporter - cause you sure don't act that way.

How does asking somebody if they are carrying make him anyless pro 2A? Agreed it wasn't his business, or even the smart thing to do, but I don't think he is any less of a supporter for asking. Does your stance help to further our cause? I would think that it wouldn't anymore than asking some Joe "Hey are you carrying?I have that same vest when I carry."

Rockwell1
August 8, 2009, 08:02 AM
"I saw a guy wearing a vest, and it was as obvious as anything that he was carrying concealed. I made my way to him and quietly said, "You're carrying, aren't you?""

I would go straight to condition red if some random stranger asked me that, very stupid thing to do

Yoda
August 8, 2009, 08:25 AM
Guys, I'm surprised at the reaction over me telling the guy that I could tell he was carrying. My tone and approach was discrete, but it was meant to indicate to him that a like-minded individual was in the crowd, but, by the way, he was being a bit too obvious. After everything broke up, I talked outside with the senior police officer, and suggested to him that if the guy with the vest was one of his plainclothes officers, he might recommend that he try a less-distinct method of concealment.

- - - Yoda

amd6547
August 8, 2009, 08:30 AM
I would never approach someone like that...

danbrew
August 8, 2009, 09:27 AM
Tampa? Vest? Heat? Gun belt? Please. He was carrying. As a matter of fact, there are four people in that picture that are carrying.

RobNDenver
August 8, 2009, 09:30 AM
1) I would suggest that its none of your business whether another citizen is carrying concealed.
2) You might get into a shoving match at a Town Hall meeting?
3) "Until they showed me a badge I would not show them any deference."

You may want to rethink your civic responsiblities and etiquette. This is the United States of America, not some third world banana republic. I may not like what someone else in America is saying, but I will always defend their right to say it.

61chalk
August 8, 2009, 09:47 AM
Quote:

"As far as I know, the guy I ID'ed never displayed a badge, which makes
me wonder if he was some private security guy, or just a union thug. Its also
possiable that he was, in fact, a cop."

How about a law abiding American also.....?

Rockwell1
August 8, 2009, 10:45 AM
Guys, I'm surprised at the reaction over me telling the guy that I could tell he was carrying
Sorry, nope

You don't walk up to random strangers and ask them if they're heeled. I wouldn't think "Oh here's a like minded individual who's here to let me know I'm printing" I'd think "Is this whackjob about to jump me?"

Don't get in my bubble, don't try to whisper sweet gun nothings in my ear, if I don't know you , WELL, stay the hell out of my space

DHJenkins
August 8, 2009, 10:59 AM
Can we get some background on this whole townhall meeting thing? What was it about and why was there a 'battle' at the door?

kingpin008
August 8, 2009, 11:03 AM
You don't walk up to random strangers and ask them if they're heeled. I wouldn't think "Oh here's a like minded individual who's here to let me know I'm printing" I'd think "Is this whackjob about to jump me?"

This.

Yo Mama
August 8, 2009, 11:05 AM
^ Uh DHJenkins, healthcare. I don't figure you get the news often :D

rbernie
August 8, 2009, 11:06 AM
Is there a point to this thread, other than to administer a virtual verbal beatdown over Yoda's approaching a stranger and telling them that he suspects they're carryin'? If so, I'd love to see it.

If not, this thread will not last much longer.

Tommygunn
August 8, 2009, 11:16 AM
As a matter of fact, there are four people in that picture that are carrying.

Maybe, but I don't have any idea in the world how you can determine that ... ... ...

Grump
August 8, 2009, 11:26 AM
Well, since the courts in the 20th Century pretty much eliminated the doctrine of citizen privilege to resist illegal State (=police) actions with up to lethal force if needed, I believe that LE types who disrespect mouthy citizens are feeling pretty empowered to do what they routinely did to teenagers in my town when I was a kid years ago:

Arrest people for resisting arrest.

Charges were dropped, but one of my friends got tagged that way after two *other* people were involved in a minor fistfight, for just reaching down from the "up against the fence" position to retrieve either his keys or his wallet.

AFIC, police lose most of their privileges to use force and order citizens around when they rely on de Facto concealed badges on their belts (who beside a Homophile looks down there???) and fail to ID themselves not just as police, but as [jurisdiction] police.

I've watched three videos from some of those town hall meetings (two from the same one--one inside at about the 3rd row, and another from one who was pushed outside the room), and I can tell you that the huge men sent to handle the peaceful but loud protesters were quite hostile to having their actions recorded on video.

Anyone with such a size superiority who is neither in uniform nor wearing a neck-lanyard badge, and who pushes a much smaller person, who hasn't lifted a finger against anyone, to the floor in a 2 on 1 situation against the little guy, should not be surprised if the victim opens fire.

The political fallout would be depressingly predictable, but there should be better protection and respect for citizens who take part in what Hillary last year (or 2 years ago?) called the "highest form of patriotism". Remember that? She was talking about dissent in a democracy (never mind that a democratic republic puts limits on democracy for the protection of minorities against majority-imposed tyrrany).

Rockwell1
August 8, 2009, 11:28 AM
Is there a point to this thread, other than to administer a virtual verbal beatdown over Yoda's approaching a stranger and telling them that he suspects they're carryin'? If so, I'd love to see it.

Yes, I suspect there might be. Is it a good or safe tactic to approach a stranger, especially in that heated of an environment and ask them if they’re armed? What possible benefit arises? What downside exists? How might the stranger react? How would you react?

I see quite a few good questions arising from this thread

rbernie
August 8, 2009, 11:34 AM
I absolutely concur. So let's debate that, instead of just adding yet another round of 'your da stoopid!' kind of comments.

I would not have approached this individual, nor any other that I suspected of carryin'. I can see zero profit in doing so. If there was a perception of profit for such an encounter, I think that identifying youself as a fellow gunnie is probably the lest obtrusive and least threatening way to do so.

But I cannot imagine what the profit might be for doing this.

AirForceShooter
August 8, 2009, 12:03 PM
so the carryin' guy was outed without a single basis for that action. Picture and all.

Is this the "only I can have a gun" syndrome?

AFS

happygeek
August 8, 2009, 12:50 PM
maybe when it comes to CC it should be don't ask, don't tell ...

thorazine
August 8, 2009, 01:55 PM
1) I would suggest that its none of your business whether another citizen is carrying concealed.

Agreed.

BullfrogKen
August 8, 2009, 03:00 PM
My tone and approach was discrete, but it was meant to indicate to him that a like-minded individual was in the crowd, but, by the way, he was being a bit too obvious.

I'd be real careful thinking that way. How do you have any idea he is a like-minded person? Because he dresses like you? Because he carries, or you suspect he's carrying a gun?

All gun owners are not alike. The simple varity on this forum alone should tell you that. And we're pretty hard on keeping the racists, white supremacists, and other riff-raff off of here.

The guy's a stranger to you. You're a stranger to him. I'd be real careful who I approached, and how I did it, when initiating the discussion of carrying a gun in public.

After everything broke up, I talked outside with the senior police officer, and suggested to him that if the guy with the vest was one of his plainclothes officers, he might recommend that he try a less-distinct method of concealment.

You seriously went up to the senior officer on duty and chided him over someone you weren't even sure was one of his guys? Even if he was on the job, this is pretty condescending.


I don't care if someone's armed. I care about someone's behavior. If it's odd or out of place, I'm going to resolve who they are and what they're doing there.


If you're worried about the ramifications of getting into a shoving match with someone who eventually turns out to be an officer, then don't get into shoving matches. Perhaps the better question to ask isn't the consequences of getting into shoving matches with an undercover officer, but what are the ramifications of getting into shoving matches period?

travellingJeff
August 8, 2009, 03:18 PM
IBTl, apparently.


I plan on attending a meeting held by Arlen Specter, my "state senator". It's at a townhall and no amount of Secret Service goons, PSP thugs or wishy-washy administrators can go against my god given, and PA backed, right to carry where I please. It's not a court house and we've got preemption laws on the books here. I might "Soft OC" carry ,just under a light shirt, then remove the shirt when I go inside if the climate is appropriate. I'm breaking no laws and I expect no interference. I'll be with friends that have the number of my attorney and lots of video cameras, should things go bad.

I don't understand why we've all attacked the OP for asking something like that. Aren't we all here because of our CONSTITUTIONAL right to bear arms? What about his CONSTITUTIONAL right to engage in free speech? Vest-guy could have said "no", or "eff off", or "mind your own business", or whatever, but you can't get mad that someone asked you a question. It's not as if he asked vest guy if that's the vest he wears when he goes out molesting children. I think it's standard Internet over-reaction mode here, as usual.

And I'm not trying to say that I'd have behave the same way, odds are good I would have not. I'm trying to say that people are free to ask what they may. To those that disagree with the question, what would you have done if someone asked that? Shot them? Mace'd them? Seriously, lets all reconsider the "multiple rounds of .338 Lapua" mentality, here. If I saw someone riding a bike, I might say "Hey, is that a Sportster?", or if I saw someone wearing a "TAPOUT" hoody, I might ask if they took MMA. I seriously hope that none of the Gecko45's from here wouldn't assassinate me before I finished uttering the last syllable.

HIGH road people, not sacred halls of Shaolin assassination squad road, ok?

BullfrogKen
August 8, 2009, 03:28 PM
I plan on attending a meeting held by Arlen Specter, my "state senator". It's at a townhall and no amount of Secret Service goons, PSP thugs or wishy-washy administrators can go against my god given, and PA backed, right to carry where I please.

Which one Jeff?

Of the four scheduled for next week, two of them are on private property. Lebanon's will be at HACC, and and Lewisberg's will be at Bucknell.

The one being held at Penn State's campus is still up in the air as far as the courts in PA are concerned.


But in Pennsylvania, private property owners may most certainly deny you entrance to carry where you please. If you refuse to leave or take your gun off their property, its trespassing.

travellingJeff
August 8, 2009, 05:06 PM
*doh*

My female friend was supposed to do the recon on this. Any idea where I can find the schedules? I wouldn't care about going onto Penn State property CC'ing. I've done that for years ;-)

jakedaniel
August 8, 2009, 05:57 PM
I couldn't help but think, while reading this thread, of the scene in "Taxi Driver" where Travis is at a Political Rally and asks the Secret Service agent if he's carrying concealed.

SCKimberFan
August 8, 2009, 06:14 PM
Tampa? Vest? Heat? Gun belt? Please. He was carrying. As a matter of fact, there are four people in that picture that are carrying.

Unless you see 4 guns, you have no idea who is carrying (other than the uniformed LEO).



As to the OP,

all I can say is: Nunya.

Nunya stinkin' business.

shaggy430
August 8, 2009, 06:23 PM
I couldn't help but think, while reading this thread, of the scene in "Taxi Driver" where Travis is at a Political Rally and asks the Secret Service agent if he's carrying concealed.

Yeah, that scene popped into my head as well.

divemedic
August 8, 2009, 06:29 PM
I figure three.

Yoda (who I am presuming was carrying, and is behind the bearded man)
The guy in the shooting vest
The uniformed cop

Jim_100
August 8, 2009, 06:34 PM
It is obvious that the only person in the photo who is carrying a concealed weapon is the blond lady with the white shirt.

danbrew
August 8, 2009, 06:35 PM
Unless you see 4 guns, you have no idea who is carrying (other than the uniformed LEO).

I do, actually. I was there and saw four guys with guns. Maybe there was more?

Noxx
August 8, 2009, 06:41 PM
All gun owners are not alike. The simple varity on this forum alone should tell you that.

Amen. Just because we both have guns doesn't mean you can come over and, uh, play scrabble with my sister.

3pairs12
August 8, 2009, 06:58 PM
Yeah Yoda didn't you show your secret decoder ring first? So what you guys are saying is that if somebody is practicing the second amendment don't try and use the first?! It really wasn't his business to do what he did but it also isn't yours. I don't think he started the thread to see what your opinion is about talking to somebody that was carrying. If it were me that he walked up to and asked if I was carrying I would have probably told him I was. I am pretty sure that somebody about to jump you doesn't ask you if you have any weapons first. Like I said I agree it isn't any of his business but it is still a free country.

travellingJeff
August 8, 2009, 07:09 PM
^^^

What he said.


It's boggling to the mind how people who are on a firearms board would be offended if someone, in real life, asked them if they partook in the hobby! Cripes, Id be scared to meet some of ya in real life.

"Hey Buddy, didja bring your gun so we could hit up the range"

"CODE RED! *CLICK* HOW DARE YOU! *BANG*"


Seriously, guys. I wouldn't ask someone that, but I wouldn't care if someone asked me. And, if I did, I'd tell them to buzz off. Who cares?

How many of us sitting here complaining about the OP are actually out at these events? How many videos exist of us at rallies, either directly pro-RKBA or just anti-statist in general? Maybe it's time to do more and nitpick less.

TexasBill
August 8, 2009, 07:13 PM
Seems to me a number of people are getting their shorts in a knot over this. In that situation, if I am so obviously packing that someone asks me if I have a gun, I don't have a valid reason to become crazed. I can either answer or not and I would probably answer, adding that I have a permit. Calmly put out the fire, don't throw gasoline on it. I would then repair to the nearest men's room to make adjustments so the question wasn't repeated.

As far as badge-on-a-belt goes, I'd rather have it there. I don't care what the cops on TV do; I don't want anything around my neck in a bad situation. That's why cops wear clip-on ties and most forces did away with Sam Browne cross-straps, for crying out loud.

Of course, my answer to all this type of nonsense is open carry. No more coats in the Texas summer, no more uncomfortable IWB holsters, no more "snubbie-down-the-leg," no more silly questions ("Yes, ma'am, I am carrying a pistol. No, ma'am, I am not a policeman. Yes, ma'am, I do have the legal right to carry a gun. Have a nice day.").

Loanshark
August 8, 2009, 07:43 PM
I've never been asked. But if I was asked by someone I didn't recognize as a cop I might say. What, are you writing a book? Get away from me! Or I might say. No. Or Hell yeah! Depends on the situation. I don't want to be asked, so don't ask me!

I can't see myself as the asker.

BullfrogKen
August 8, 2009, 08:10 PM
*doh*

My female friend was supposed to do the recon on this. Any idea where I can find the schedules?

You can find it right on Arlen Specter's official senate website.


How many of us sitting here complaining about the OP are actually out at these events? How many videos exist of us at rallies, either directly pro-RKBA or just anti-statist in general? Maybe it's time to do more and nitpick less.

I've found I had myself filmed many times at RKBA rallies. I've even been officially interviewed at them for print, radio, and television over the years.


The difference is these rallies aren't about RKBA. The #1 issue at this summer's round of town hall meetings has been about economics and pending health care legislation. If I got asked if I was carrying a gun at a RKBA rally, the answer would depend on who's asking and how they asked me the question. But I'd certainly be more accepting of that question being asked in that setting.

If I got asked that question in some other setting, I'd want to know who you are and why you're asking me that question.


Yeah Yoda didn't you show your secret decoder ring first? So what you guys are saying is that if somebody is practicing the second amendment don't try and use the first?!

This isn't about 1st amendment rights. Its about politeness, privacy, and manners.

If I were at an abortion rally, or a church revival, I'd expect someone might ask me if I'd found Jesus. Outside of those sorts of settings, I regard a stranger asking me that question as intrusive and rude.

If a stranger approached me and asked if the woman on my arm was my wife, I'd politely want to know who he was and why he felt it was any of his business as well.


This isn't about the 1st amendment. This is about manners.

I guess about the only way I'd broach that question in that situation is I'd introduce myself and ask if this gruff-looking man was working security there first. Depending on how the interaction went, I might or might not point out his gun had become exposed, and see how things went from there. He might not even give a damn, and since in Pennsylvania we have no requirement to keep it concealed, its none of my business to persuade him otherwise.

travellingJeff
August 8, 2009, 08:16 PM
^^
What he said, as well.


We've got to recognize the difference between an impolite question and an actual impingement of our rights. If someone asks me if I'm carrying, it's like them asking if I've got a cigarette lighter or any other item. Usually, I'll answer politely. I feel no compulsion to answer them or, if I choose to, to be polite about it. I don't particularly agree with the notion that I'm required to act as an ambassador of the RKBA community while I'm carrying, but I was raised to be honest and respectful.

BullfrogKen
August 9, 2009, 12:31 AM
Jeff,

My opinion on the matter is no good can come from sharing that information.


I don't know who the person is asking that question. If I'm going to answer it, I want to know who they are and why it matters to them. There are other downsides to answering that question besides someone inclined to do violence upon us.

There are people with agendas, and people with irrational fears. The person you tell might blurt it out to the entire room and give you a hard time over it. He or she might go discreetly tell an Officer, and they may or may not be truthful in their account of how they leanred you had that gun on you.


But besides all this . . . . the original question was:

One thing that bothered me was the large number of police officers (or secret service?) who were not in uniform and who could not be identified as sworn officers. What would be the impact if I got into a shoving match with someone who appeared to be a civilian, but then identified himself as a cop?

What good can come from getting into a shoving match at all, regardless of who those people are?


It's a public venue.
There are obviously Peace Officers there working security.
Go find one, and let him establish order.
If you're kept out, request to see the shift supervisor and ask why. Ask to be admitted. If you are still refused admittance without a good reason, get his/her name and make an appointment with the Chief the next morning.
Document everything. I see plenty of video cameras there. Film it, then call the media the next day. Post it on Youtube.


My Lord, let's use our heads here.


If they, whoever they are, really wanted to keep you people with your opinions out of the room, what makes you think forcing your way inside to express them will matter? If they are that opposed having you inside, any dissenting opinion that does make its way inside will fall on deaf ears.

SCKimberFan
August 9, 2009, 10:44 AM
I was there and saw four guys with guns.

Did you actually SEE the guns? If not, you may well be mistaken.

danbrew
August 9, 2009, 11:56 AM
Did you actually SEE the guns? If not, you may well be mistaken.

No, I actually SAW the guns. I could have plucked one of them right out of the holster if I had wanted to. Wasn't sure if they were cops, undercover, private security, or just guys with guns. Leaning towards more of the former than the latter, but you never know.

Yoda
August 9, 2009, 03:58 PM
Having read the comments so, far, all I can say is that it seems that I'm on a different wavelength than most of you.

Here's two points, though:

First, if I discretely (repeat, discretely) say to someone, "You're carrying, aren't you?" then there are several potential outcomes:

He's a sworn officer: Worse thing he might do is tell me I'm interfering in police business. Most likely outcome is that he will ignore me. There probably aren't any best-case outcomes, except that he might try to be less obvious next time.

He's a private citizen with no evil intent: Worse thing he might do is tell me to bug off. OK, so he thinks I'm rude or nosey. Most likely outcome is that he might ignore me. Best case is that some like-minded individuals end up discussing where he got the nifty vest and other issues that gunnies often share, or that he acknowledges that his carry method is too obvious.

He's a private citizen with evil intent: Worst thing he might do is go blitzo right there, at a time and place that probably does not suit his purpose. Best case is that he gets cold feet and abandons his plan.

Second. as far as the advice to not get into shoving matches in the first place: Guys, at this time, I wasn't aware of the man in St Louis who was roughed up and sent to the hospital, presumably by some union enforcers. I WAS aware that a crowd of us in Tampa were at the doorway, being loud but not violent, when a number of large burly men (and angry women with their fingernails held out like claws) suddenly charged us and pushed several guys to the floor and against the wall. When everything was over, one of the men had his shirt torn and his chest scratched. If the guys who did this were cops, then I could acccept that they got carried away or that the guy who got roughed up was not being compliant, but they never identified themselves one way of the other.

Should we have backed away on the ASSUMPTION that the aggressors are cops, or should we stand our ground like free men?

I used to have a girl friend who lived in Madrid during Franco's reign. She said that you would occasionally see someone on the street suddenly get surrounded by guys in cheap suits, who would then beat the bejeezus out of the victim. No one ever tried to help the victim, because it was always assumed that the thugs were government men and the beating had been sanctioned.

Should we also stand aside and let union thugs beat us, too, on the assumption that someone has approved the action?

I'll stand aside for a cop, if I know it's a cop, because I know that there are some options to redress any grievances later. However, I won't get shoved around by ACORN ex-cons, SEIU enforcers, or liberals who can't stand to see or hear me.


- - - Yoda

BullfrogKen
August 9, 2009, 04:45 PM
Well, your possibility matrix leaves out a LOT of possible outcomes.

But anyway, that's not the point of your thread.

Should we have backed away on the ASSUMPTION that the aggressors are cops, or should we stand our ground like free men?

. . . .

I'll stand aside for a cop, if I know it's a cop, because I know that there are some options to redress any grievances later. However, I won't get shoved around by ACORN ex-cons, SEIU enforcers, or liberals who can't stand to see or hear me.


Did anything I wrote suggest you roll over? Did anything I wrote suggest you allow yourself to take a beating?

If you want to be a peaceful activist, learn to act like one. Non-violence. Non-violence. Non-violence.

If you want to be heard and respected as a concerned citizen at a public meeting, and can act peacefully, stand with me. If you want to get involved in crowded shoving matches, you're on your own.


I asked a question. What good can come from getting into a big shoving match, regardless of who's doing the shoving? Reflect upon it for a bit and see if you can come up with one.


Hey, its your choice to make. Do whatever you want. But if your mind's made up on how you'll behave anyway, why ask us? Don't get annoyed when you hear others think retaliation or the same sort of response to violence is a good idea. Especially when there are Police already there on the scene whose job it is to keep order.

iiibdsiil
August 10, 2009, 02:38 PM
How do we find out about other similar events in the Tampa area. Is there a website or something?

I received a thing on Facebook with about 5 hours notice. There has to be a better way.

TEDDY
August 10, 2009, 05:49 PM
you do know that at least one man was beaten and was treated at the hospital.and several were arrested for assault.
if I was at a club I might ask if a person was carrying.in a town meating no way,you seem to have outed the carrier to the police.you gave the apperance of being a busy body.observe and keep to your self.
on ann coulters web one is the lady that took film and its on you tube.you might go there.:rolleyes::uhoh:

Two Cold Soakers
August 10, 2009, 09:42 PM
It's boggling to the mind how people who are on a firearms board would be offended if someone, in real life, asked them if they partook in the hobby!

Concealed (or open) carry as the man in the vest is operating isn't a hobby. You may make it a hobby, but it is an exercise of one of the rights we were born with. The second amendment isn't about hobbyists, and this wasn't the range.

By sidling up and saying "I've marked you" to anyone in any manner is unnecessary. At best you invade the privacy of an individual with your voyeurism, at worst, you interfere with law enforcement.

travellingJeff
August 10, 2009, 10:09 PM
The Constitution isn't an exclusive list of our only rights, it's a mentioning of our most important ones. As we've all got rights to own firearms, so do we all also have the right to own motorcycles, or oil paint, or race horses. If I saw a person in public with an easel set up doing oil paintings, I'd feel no qualms walking up to him and asking them about their artwork. I see no difference.

What if an Amish individual were present and someone asked them about their faith? Or a Buddhist monk? Is that "offensive" to do? I fail to see how.

Also, where do you feel your "right to privacy" exists in public to a degree that people aren't allowed to ask you questions? You've got every right to ignore them, to walk away, to answer how you feel, I'd even say you've got a right to tell them to "buzz off". Since we're talking about "rights" versus "hobbies", perhaps you could look directly above the Second Amendment and see what that paragraph might state about asking individuals, in a public location, questions?

I'm not saying that the question might have not been in the best of taste, or that I'd do it, but I'd also not chastise someone for asking that question of me. It's amazing to watch how we've got posts in "LEGAL" as to how individuals are trying to mention the sport/hobby/right of firearms to as many people as they can to get them involved, and others would be offended if someone asked them.

I'm also a bit confused as to how this "interferes with law enforcement". Do I not have the right to speak with law enforcement? How can you preach about rights, yet stipulate that speaking with a officer about his firearm somehow interferes with his ability to do his job?

I'm just completely lost, here. I carry a gun, a pocketknife, and a cell phone (among other things) with me daily. If someone asked me about any of those, or about an interesting location that I've traveled to, or anything really, other than an obviously rude and offensive questions, I wouldn't feel offended.

YMMV, of course.

Two Cold Soakers
August 10, 2009, 10:20 PM
I lost count at three strawmen. It is clear you are completely lost here.

Let me spell it out for you:

Good taste and carry etiquette dictate that concealed means concealed; don't ask me about something I'm trying to conceal. That is the work of busybodies.

If you are sticking your nose in something concealed (legality and public safety notwithstanding), you will be told to stand down.

If it's openly carried, feel free to try to impress me with the knowledge of your hobby pursuits.
If it's concealed, I'm not interested in hearing you talk about it.

travellingJeff
August 10, 2009, 10:22 PM
So, what right of Vest-Guy did OP violate?


None, right?

Oh, yes, the "right to be private in a public place", is that what you'll say?

junyo
August 10, 2009, 10:26 PM
By sidling up and saying "I've marked you" to anyone in any manner is unnecessary. At best you invade the privacy of an individual with your voyeurism, at worst, you interfere with law enforcement.If the guy had wanted privacy he could have stayed home or concealed better. If it was a cop he should have concealed better, openly carried, and/or displayed his badge.This whole argument is the equivalent of a woman walking around in public with a breast hanging out of her top, and then getting offended that someone sawed and commented, and then having a bunch of other women get in on the act.

If you're going to carry concealed, conceal.

There seem to be a lot of gun owners that seem to think that they can interact with the universe in the manner they choose w/o repercussion. No one should question/speak/make eye contact with them without explicit permission. Well sorry, behavior has consequences. Poorly concealing a weapon, at a political event during a time when emotions are running high, will draw recognition and curiosity from a certain portion of the population, and cause some subset of that group (with a vested interest in parsing threats and/or not having someone do something stupid with a gun) to take action to ascertain the precise nature of threat that person represents. People need to be realistic.

oak1971
August 10, 2009, 10:31 PM
The black guy on the left. Note the police uniform. The grey haired guy with the can of DR Pepper. Plain clothes duty belt. The guy with the vest. Nice bulge, is that a gun or are you just happy to see me? And they guy over Vest's left shoulder(our right). That one is harder to say for sure but him and the others have the same stare and the same grim expression.

rbernie
August 10, 2009, 10:31 PM
Ye gods - it's not up to us to police each other's carry. We are not the CCW Fashion Pol-Leece, nor should we pretend to be.

Y'all really need to learn that 'mind your own business' is a two way street. As a community, we seem to want less intrusion and less hassle for exercising our rights, and yet we feel the need to hassle each other over something as silly as a bulged vest.

I will never understand that.

Never.

oak1971
August 10, 2009, 10:36 PM
It's called situational awareness. I would not have said anything, but I darn sure do keep track of who is around me and what if any threat they might pose.

TimM
August 10, 2009, 10:42 PM
And now that you made a deal out of it there will be an announcement made and CC will be prohibited. Well done.

BullfrogKen
August 10, 2009, 10:43 PM
So, what right of Vest-Guy did OP violate?


None, right?

Oh, yes, the "right to be private in a public place", is that what you'll say?

It's simply bad manners. It's a shame you can't see that.


I wear a wedding ring. I don't try to hide the fact that I'm married. Approaching me to ask what sex with my wife is like is bad manners, too.


Approaching me to ask if I have a gun under my vest is bad manners. I have no idea who you are, or why you want to know if I have a gun.


I think far too many gun owners take too much pleasure in trying to tell who else in the room has a gun on them. Why do some people who carry a gun feel like once they've "made someone" (and Lord do I groan when I hear that bandied about), that from that simple connection they are somehow brothers?

You go ask the wrong person that question and they may just show it to you.


Because you and I carry a gun does not make us of the same mind. The assumption that it does is tactically dangerous. The presumption that since you've discovered "my secret" that I'd welcome you coming up to me to strike up a conversation about my gun is naive.


Stop obsessing about guns and find something else to strike up a conversation about. I'd imagine, say . . . "So what brought you out to the rally today?" might be a pretty good start.

junyo
August 10, 2009, 10:50 PM
It's called situational awareness. I would not have said anything, but I darn sure do keep track of who is around me and what if any threat they might pose.You're obviously missing the point by letting your situational awareness interfere with the pathological apathy that gun owners are supposed to cultivate.

Action_Can_Do
August 10, 2009, 11:00 PM
Rude questions include:
1. Are you a homosexual?
2. Who did you vote for?
3. Can you lend me 5 dollars? Give me your address and I'll mail it back to you.
4. How much money do you make a year?
5. What's your wife's favorite sexual position?
6. Are you carrying a gun?

You can ask rude questions all you like. Just don't be surprised if you get a rude answer. To the OP I pose this question. If you were in a bank, and a stranger walked up to you and asked you if you were carrying, would you feel uncomfortable?

Two Cold Soakers
August 10, 2009, 11:10 PM
Good grief.

So, what right of Vest-Guy did OP violate? None, right?

Yes, you are right in this observation, but still missing the point entirely.

equivalent of a woman walking around in public with a breast hanging out of her top

The lady with the boob argument is just another fallacy thrown up to obfuscate the issue, but to much of a plumb to ignore:

If public display of secondary female sexual characteristics is illegal, report or intervene, your choice. If it is legal and appropriate, keep yer cake hole shut.

Based on the posts here, I'm sure there will be hushed whispers about the legal but shameless hussy (as there has been about sloppy concealed carry). There is no place in a polite society to call attention to it.

If you feel the need to point out every nose booger, untied shoelace, and plumber's crack, then you are beyond help. However, if a socially developing individual reads this thread, perhaps he or she will learn they don't need to become society's caretakers.

BullfrogKen
August 11, 2009, 12:02 AM
This whole argument is the equivalent of a woman walking around in public with a breast hanging out of her top, and then getting offended that someone sawed and commented, and then having a bunch of other women get in on the act.

No, its a little more like a mother trying to discreetly breast feed her baby. She tried to cover up, but maybe isn't doing the best job of it. Rather than do what most of us do - look past a completely natural act - someone's decided to make it their business to go give her grief over it.


Unless a stranger has a legitimate reason for coming up to me to ask if I'm carrying a gun, I'm not going to like being asked that question. Especially if it has not become exposed, but merely a guess based upon how I'm dressed.


Among other things, it suggests to me that the person asking that question is obsessed with guns, and obsessed enough to walk up to me, a complete stranger, to have a conversation about it.

travellingJeff
August 11, 2009, 12:32 AM
I still don't see how anyone was "given grief" over their actions.

And some people are blowing this issue out of proportion to prove their point; of course you can't ask rude, offensive questions to someone. While those words are both subjective, I think we could come to some concensus.

Asking inappropriate questions about your significant other? Offensive, rude and uncalled for.



Here's an interesting scenario; Let's say that a guy is asking to borrow ten bucks for gasoline (or bus fare, or whatever). Do you get as offended as if he asks "Hey buddy, whats that bulge, a gun?" I'd be more offended that someone tried to hit me up for a loan than someone asking if I was carrying. Also, and I realize that this isn't the exact case but let's say you were in Texas and printing badly, wouldn't you WANT a gunowner to come up and give ya the heads up that you were printing, or that your shirt had ridden up over the grip of your sidearm?

All I'm really saying is that, while certain questions are inappropriate and a lot of those questions depend on setting and intimacy with the individual asking and being asked, I don't feel that the OP's question, although a bit off-the-cuff, was rude, offensive or deserved to be treated with a hostile answer. If I was in the shoes of the question-asker, I would be prepared to be responded to with a "mind your own damn business", which I'd politely accept and move away.

Either way, good job going to the town hall meeting, good job posting about it and I hope no one's scolding has scared ya away ;-)

regards,
tJ

travellingJeff
August 11, 2009, 12:34 AM
If public display of secondary female sexual characteristics is illegal, report or intervene, your choice. If it is legal and appropriate, keep yer cake hole shut.


"If asking a question regarding a lawful act is illegal, inform the police or act against them. If it's legal and appropriate, answer in the manner you feel best suits the situation."

No hard feelings, btw, just an internet discussion :)

junyo
August 11, 2009, 10:58 AM
No, its a little more like a mother trying to discreetly breast feed her baby. She tried to cover up, but maybe isn't doing the best job of it. Rather than do what most of us do - look past a completely natural act - someone's decided to make it their business to go give her grief over it.
Since when did asking a question constitute "grief"? Torturing this analogy further, assuming your version of the analogy is valid, if a more experianced mother were to go up to this lady and inquire, in route to perhaps suggesting a better method of covering up while nursing, or pointing out that there's a less exposed area nearby, is the mom with her boob out justified in getting angry?

It's a rationalization of apathy and indifference to say that its polite or good manners to see someone doing something wrong and just ignore it. Especially when the "something" represents a risk to the person and the people around them. Manners dictate offering assistance and withdrawing if/when that assistance is declined. The OP saw someone that was doing something badly, had specific knowledge that could maybe help that individual, inquired, and when rebuffed, did not impose. Not seeing the problem.

Two Cold Soakers
August 11, 2009, 11:17 AM
It's a rationalization of apathy and indifference to say that its polite or good manners to see someone doing something wrong and just ignore it

So, you believe that carrying concealed and/or open is wrong?

The OP saw someone that was doing something badly, had specific knowledge that could maybe help that individual

Manytimes I carry - a large frame DA auto - in my pants pocket. The Hogues hang out. I don't worry, I'm a ccw licensee and OC is legal here.
I do this because I don't want to leave it in a truck that has no door locks.

If someone comes up to me and mentions the gat, I'll entertain them while pivoting strong side away and placing my hand on the butt. Usually it's some assinine small talk comment like "Is that a gun?"
My canned response is "Let's hope you never find out."

I grow tired of having to answer to every Joe about my pistol(s).
I carry. It's my right, I'm fully legal.
The only person I'm obliged to answer to carries a badge.
If you wanna make small talk, let's talk about your vasectomy, or your wife's plantar warts.

Anti-social? I've never been diagnosed, but I can carry on a pleasant conversation with plenty of eye contact whether or not either of us are packing, open or closed.

Talking up someone because of their "stuff" is rude and pushy. Talking up someone because of something they are trying to hide is beyond the pale.

BullfrogKen
August 11, 2009, 02:34 PM
It's a rationalization of apathy and indifference to say that its polite or good manners to see someone doing something wrong and just ignore it. Especially when the "something" represents a risk to the person and the people around them. Manners dictate offering assistance and withdrawing if/when that assistance is declined. The OP saw someone that was doing something badly, had specific knowledge that could maybe help that individual, inquired, and when rebuffed, did not impose. Not seeing the problem.


Represents a risk to the person and those around them? How in the hell did you come to that?

The man had a vest on. It covered the gun. About the only people who would have any clue that bulge might have been a gun would be those who go around playing Where's Waldo and spot the gunnie. I have no idea how you come to the conclusion this is a risk to anyone.


And Yoda did not back down when rebuffed. He approached the shift supervisor, and without even knowing if this person actually was one of his officers, went onto make suggestions about how he should have his man find better carry attire.


It's condescending and rude behavior. Sorry you don't see it that way.

kingpin008
August 11, 2009, 05:17 PM
Reading this thread reminds me of riding the Merry-Go-Round at the county fair. You can go round and round and round for hours, and never actually go anywhere! :neener:

junyo
August 11, 2009, 10:37 PM
So, you believe that carrying concealed and/or open is wrong?
No, I believe concealing badly is wrong. It draws attention to the fact that you're trying to hide a gun, which makes attentive people curious, which is the worst of both worlds. If you're going to open carry, open carry. If you're going to concealed carry, conceal.
I do this because I don't want to leave it in a truck that has no door locks.So it's in your power to eliminate the reason why people walk up to you, you choose not to, and begrudge those people their reactions? Rather than taking any number of simple expedients that could eliminate the problem, everyone else should adjust their manner to accommodate your comfort. Those bastards.
Represents a risk to the person and those around them? How in the hell did you come to that?
As a wise man once said "Because you and I carry a gun does not make us of the same mind. The assumption that it does is tactically dangerous." There's a small number of people I truly trust with a gun around me. All others represent some level of threat, either through intent or negligence, until they prove otherwise. A man with a gun who doesn't want to carry openly, yet doesn't know/care enough to conceal it (in a more than perfunctory manner) stands out as a threat. Especially considering the entire point of concealing is to lower your perceived threat profile.

About the only people who would have any clue that bulge might have been a gun would be those who go around playing Where's Waldo and spot the gunnie.
There are only a million threads on this forum about situational awareness, about the need to be aware of threats around you and not take anything for granted. But we all know that no one has ever been violent at a political event. Ever. So an apparently hastily concealed weapon at one is no real biggie. By all means we should all assume that anyone who's trying to conceal something is doing so with the best of intentions and not question it. And don't even think about mentioning any thoughts to another living soul.

Most of your right to privacy ends when you go into a public place. I can take your picture and put it in the paper. I can walk up and speak to you. If you're doing something that draws attention, it's reasonable to expect those things to happen. If you don't want to be bothered, it's entirely within your power to prevent that from happening, by not doing anything that draws attention, rather than insisting that everyone else in the universe play a game of "see no evil". That's the rudeness, the imposition. Look at the picture. Stevie Wonder could tell the guy was carrying. That's doing a half assed job, and then laying the responsibility off on other folks to pretend an adequate job was done. Sorry you don't understand that.

Two Cold Soakers
August 11, 2009, 11:47 PM
I believe concealing badly is wrong.
What about striped pants with a polka-dot shirt, or a fat guy with a short necktie? Is it you job to point out that?

So it's in your power to eliminate the reason why people walk up to you, you choose not to, and begrudge those people their reactions?
The open bearing of arms is not something that needs to be eliminated. I have a problem with the infantile reactions of people who are so moved by the presence of a gun "Look! Look! A Gun! Talk to me about it!"
Yes, it's a gun, are those buttons on your shirt? Talk to me about it!

..could eliminate the problem
Again, why do feel carry is a "problem"?
I'm starting to notice a trend in your posts.
Do you feel guilt or shame about carry?
Do YOU carry?

There's a small number of people I truly trust with a gun around me.
That's a blatantly elitist statement, and flies in the face of the concept of "inalienable rights".
Keep it up, you have an audience.

Especially considering the entire point of concealing is to lower your perceived threat profile.
Nope, fail.
Some people put a gun in their pocket because they need two hands for pumping gas, buying groceries, or filling out bank papers.
Want to lower your threat profile? Don't approach strangers with guns!!!

blah blah blah there are only a million threads on this forum blah bah blah we all know that no one has ever been violent at a political event. blah blah blah
You didn't learn anything from those threads, either.
Learn to watch the threat from a defensible position, not making yourself a target.

Most of your right to privacy ends when you go into a public place
As does your right not to have to see guns or sloppy dressers.

If you're doing something that draws attention, it's reasonable to expect those things to happen.
Since when is exercising my 2nd amendment right "drawing attention to myself?"
Oh, that's right, when you disapprove of how it looks.

...by not doing anything that draws attention, rather than insisting that everyone else in the universe play a game of "see no evil".
So, I need to dress to fool every Jr. G-man with x-ray vision.
And since when is carrying "Evil"?
This is too easy.

That's doing a half assed job, and then laying the responsibility off on other folks to pretend an adequate job was done.

There is no responsibility being lain upon anyone. He's got a sloppy concealment, a booger in his nose, an untied shoe, his buttcrack showing, ad infinitum. You don't have to pretend it's not there, you DO have to accept it and move along, because chances are HE DOESN'T CARE if you don't approve.

Sorry you don't understand that.

I understand fully.
You have assigned yourself the role of arbiter of proper carry.
You are the Fashion Police.

Your insistence on pointing out the splinter in another's eye has blinded you to the plank in your own. The question at hand has always been "Why do you feel the need to point out to someone what they already know?"

I put forth that it is an adolescent need to show that you know something about someone that they don't know you know.

A more probable, based on a critical reading of your post, more nefarious motivation is a desire to out anyone other than you who may be carrying, because, as you have plainly said, you don't trust the hoi palloi to have guns. If they can't hide them, how the heck can they be trusted with them.

seanie!
August 12, 2009, 01:19 AM
If you're going to open carry, open carry. If you're going to concealed carry, conceal.
I hate to jump in this debate so late in the game(or at all for any matter), but that statement almost made me feel sick to my stomach for some reason. I think it's because there seems to be this secret underground club that you join once you conceal a weapon on your person. I've never done it, as I live in Illinois and it's a very big no-no here. I also think that I would rather open carry if anything, but that is neither here, nor there.

There was a thread no too long ago about someone asking how bad he was printing, and it turned in to a huge debate that was somewhat similar to this. This also goes back to my secret underground club theory. Take the average Joe, who does not immerse themselves into the whole concealed carry lifestyle. If they see someone walking down the street, or at a coffee shop, political rally, etc. with a bulge on their hip, I really doubt that they would think much of it. I know for a fact that I wouldn't. I don't even think I would take note of it. If it was obtrusive enough to jump out at me, I would probably think it was a cell phone holster or something. Even as a gun owner and shooting enthusiast I wouldn't immediately assume it was a firearm. Does a bulge on the hip under a vest even mean that he is no longer lawfully concealed carrying?

From what I've read on these and other forums, is there seems to be this almost obsession with concealed carry once you partake in it. All of the sudden bad guys lurk around every corner. You have to be on your guard whenever you're out in the open. You take in every possible detail you can. To me this sounds almost like paranoia. And before anyone jumps to any conclusions, keep in mind that I've never carried in any way, nor am I knocking it. But has anyone stopped to think that this guy could be wearing an insulin pump? A catheter? Maybe that's why he became offended. Why does it have to be a gun? It could be anything for all we know.

I also don't really understand why everyone is at arms about how rude it is to ask this guy if he has a gun. It's not something I think I would ever do, but it's not like he slapped this guy's mother, or insulted his wife.

divemedic
August 12, 2009, 06:36 AM
From what I've read on these and other forums, is there seems to be this almost obsession with concealed carry once you partake in it. All of the sudden bad guys lurk around every corner. You have to be on your guard whenever you're out in the open. You take in every possible detail you can. To me this sounds almost like paranoia. And before anyone jumps to any conclusions, keep in mind that I've never carried in any way, nor am I knocking it. But has anyone stopped to think that this guy could be wearing an insulin pump? A catheter? Maybe that's why he became offended. Why does it have to be a gun? It could be anything for all we know.

In that, you are correct. Some people use CC as some sort of testosterone laden wannabe cop fantasy, where they get to shoot the bad guys, sort of like a cops and robbers fantasy.

herkyguy
August 12, 2009, 09:36 AM
I suggest we develop a secret sort of "yeah, I'm packing" handshake/nod or signal so discrete that no one outside of our uber-exclusive secret inner circle will notice it or know its true meaning.

second, we can further refine this ultra-secretive signal with other ever more complex signals so that we can communicate to each other what weapon we are carrying, how many rounds we have, what the weight of our bullets are, and our average grouping at 10 yards.

we could even communicate through our elaborate 'signals' when someone enters the room who is not a member of our clandestine group who we suspect may be carrying concealed. then we can ridicule them and make fun of them for not being as awesome as us.

this way, we'll be like CCW ninjas that protect the world from bad guys and uphold all that is good and right.

Two Cold Soakers
August 12, 2009, 11:39 AM
then we can ridicule them and make fun of them for not being as awesome as us

I do appreciate the sarcasm, but unfortunately, this is exactly what we're dealing with.

rbernie
August 12, 2009, 11:43 AM
I'm going to go ahead and quietly close this one before this devolves into any more of a quarrel. I think that the points that can be made have been made, and from this point forward it's just going to be All Bad <tm>.

Just a hunch, but I'm running with it. ;)

If you enjoyed reading about "Guy with Gun at Tampa Town Hall Meeting" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!