[GoodKat]

I can't find a single person who sells such a thing online, anyone know where I could have one made?

[KenWP]

I have some in stock but it would be a short night stick as they are 6 inch peices.

[GoodKat]

I have some in stock but it would be a short night stick as they are 6 inch peices.
I'm looking more in the 24-26 inch area, but thanks.

[James T Thomas]

There are, or had been specialty lumber yards few and far between.
"Thomas Register."

If you find some, please don't take it with you on a wilderness canoe trip where you might risk dropping it in the water.

Good luck in whittling it, even with D2 blades.

[JR47]

It can be machined to shape.

http://www.exoticwoodgroup.com/order_Argentine_lignum_vitae.htm

http://www.woodfinder.com/search.php?search=Lignum%20Vitae

http://www.exoticwood.biz/lignumvitae.htm?gclid=CNDL7qyml5wCFQIxxgodEDEZcA

Hope that this helps.

[Carl Levitian]

If I may ask the OP, why that choice of wood?

It's very hard, to be sure, and boat drive shaft berings used to be made from it, but it's not the most impact resistant when used in lengths. Ash and oak, and hickory are way better for a defensive stick, as well as lighter weight for better sspeed in use.

Just curious.

[James T Thomas]

Carl knows his sticks and wood!

If you must have exotic, why not Osage Orange?

[GoodKat]

If I may ask the OP, why that choice of wood?
It's very hard, to be sure, and boat drive shaft berings used to be made from it, but it's not the most impact resistant when used in lengths. Ash and oak, and hickory are way better for a defensive stick, as well as lighter weight for better sspeed in use.
I don't want something light, I want a bone smasher, something that will make a bodybuiler collapse with one whack to the knee. I hear that cocobolo may also be a good alternative. I also keep seeing "dymondwood" mentioned on other forums. I was wondering if stabilization would make the stick harder and heavier. I'm basically looking for the heaviest, hardest, toughest wood I can get.

[Isaac's Grandpa]

You could post on www.familywoodworking.org in the turning forum. If you strike out there, pm me and we can work out something. I would need a sketch and measurements. Cocobolo would be a good choice, but you have to make sure you aren't allergic to it. It is one of the worse woods for reactions. Ebony would be good but expensive for the size needed. Osage orange is another good choice, but it doesn't stay orange for long. It will turn a rich brown over time.

[KenWP]

One place you can try is Lee Valley tools. They might have a peice that long. I found a night stick made from it but its actually little peices put together.

My search found a place in Brazil that sells whole trees of it. It is sold under a couple of other names besides Lignum Vitae. IMP is one and Palo Santo is the other and there is a kind called bastard lignum vitae also. So far its pretty hard to come by at the moment since it is listed in Appendix 2 of Cities as endangered.

[gb6491]

Try some of the wooden martial arts weapons makers. They can probably make exactly what you want or, in lieu of a night stick, you might want to think:
Escrima/Arnis stick
Hanbo
Bokken

Places to try:
http://bearwoodproducts.com/
http://sdksupplies.netfirms.com/

Regards,
Greg

[Col. Plink]

Or for $13 you can get a 24" toddler's teeball bat at Walmart. Love that thing...

[kamagong]

I don't want something light, I want a bone smasher, something that will make a bodybuiler collapse with one whack to the knee. I hear that cocobolo may also be a good alternative. I also keep seeing "dymondwood" mentioned on other forums. I was wondering if stabilization would make the stick harder and heavier. I'm basically looking for the heaviest, hardest, toughest wood I can get.


Take a look at macassar ebony. It's used quite a bit in the Filipino Martial Arts. I have a couple of sticks made from it, the stuff is heavy.

[Kingcreek]

Osage Orange is exotic? Wow! I own almost a mile of exotic osage orange hedge row and probly 300 hedge fence posts- some of them over 50 years old and hard as rock. I can cut you some but it dulls a saw blade real fast and even throws sparks if you cut it in low light. I have some black locust which is almost as tough. osage o ages to a beautiful honey amber color. heck I'll send you a fencepost if you pay S&H!

[chugokujin]

Hey all,

New here, but been lurking for awhile. Personally, I've had bad experiences with some of the more exotic woods like Filipino hardwoods and African hardwoods. Since they are organic and tropical mostly, they will expand/shrink depending on the climate.

The exotic hardwoods WILL shatter if they are used (ie, hard contact) in a colder climates. Years ago some of the hardwood training sticks I brought back from the Phillippines started splitting just returning back to NYCs winter climate. I've had friends break cocobolo sticks here as well.

IMO, for a defesive cane, I'd stick with Hickory or Osage orange. They are tough to beat (no pun intended).

Kingfisher, I do consider Osage an exotic American wood. You're a lucky guy with the Black locust too. Don't suppose you could spare another fence post?

[Carl Levitian]

"Hey all,

New here, but been lurking for awhile. Personally, I've had bad experiences with some of the more exotic woods like Filipino hardwoods and African hardwoods. Since they are organic and tropical mostly, they will expand/shrink depending on the climate.

The exotic hardwoods WILL shatter if they are used (ie, hard contact) in a colder climates. Years ago some of the hardwood training sticks I brought back from the Phillippines started splitting just returning back to NYCs winter climate. I've had friends break cocobolo sticks here as well.

IMO, for a defesive cane, I'd stick with Hickory or Osage orange. They are tough to beat (no pun intended).

Kingfisher, I do consider Osage an exotic American wood. You're a lucky guy with the Black locust too. Don't suppose you could spare another fence post? "


I fear chugokujin is spot on in his opinion.

The tropical hardwoods are nice looking, and make very good handles because of the surface hardness of the wood. Just as they make nice furniture trim, table tops and such. But for a non firearm weapon like an impact delivery, there is a danger of brittleness. My experiance with Lignum vitae has been in the marine end, where they used to make propeler drive shaft bearing out of it. It stands up well under steady pressure, but in any lengths longer than a foot, it tends to break way more easy than a more common wood such as oak or ash.

If one wants to understand the weapons use of wood, look at history, and the people who used wood for weapons. In the far east, like Japan and China, and the Philipines, wood staves and sticks were used very effectivly as weapons. In some locals, they had some of the hardwoods available to them, either growing or by trade. Yet we see oak used more than any other wood. In japan the woden training swords were of oak I beleive. If I am wrong, please let someone correct me. I read of Miyamoto Mushashi using a wooden bokken in some of his duels, and I think they must have been a common wood such as oak. In his dual with Sasaki Kijiro in 1612, he used a bokken he carved out of a boat oar while on the way to the Island of Furajima where the dual took place. This was sufficent to defeat an opponant armed with a large two handed sword. I do not think boat oars in 1600's Japan were of exotic woods.

When Sir Robert Peel was forming the first police force, the London Metropolitan Police department, he was wondering what to arm them with. Short sword was considered, the pistols of the day were single shots. One his first recruits was an ex sailor of the British Navy. He told Sir Robert of the navy tactics of hand to hand fighting on the old sailing ships. Even with cutlasses and pistols, and boarding axes being issued out, the averidge sailor would prefer a belaying pin. This was in short, a length of good English oak about the length of a mans forarm. It wouldn't break like some sword blades would do, it wasn't limited to one shot like the pistols of the day, and was easy and instictive to use. Sir Robert made the ex sailor his advisor to training the first "Bobbies", and they were armed with oak or ash clubs for next 150 years.

I think you would be best served by making your stick out of a common wood known for toughness in impact situations. Ash, oak, hornbeam, locust, blackthorn, osage, hickory. May not be exotic, but if push comes to shove in the dark of night, you'll be better served by a wood that won't let you down when you need it the most.

Lignum vitae is pretty stuff, but it's just too hard and a bit brittle for use in long lengths for an impact weapon.

PS- Welcome chugokujin, to a interesting forum with some very nice people.

[Joe Demko]

Go to a well-stocked hardware store and get yourself a hickory replacement handle for a sledge hammer. Trim it to the length you want. They make really effective head knockers.

[Oyeboten]

Hi Good Kat,


If you supply the Wood, I can turn you anything you'd want.

I do a great deal of varied Wood Lathe Work, much of which is replicating missing Spindles for Anique Chairs or other Furniture or Stairways, but I do many sorts of small Turnings also...Antique Turn-Screw Handles,and various other specialized small Handles and so on...so, any sort of Batons or Night Sticks would be forthright for me to do.


Lignum Vitae has been used as Bearing Blocks for Propellor Boat's Shafts where grain configuraions are not critical...but, individual pieces will of course vary in their grain configurations, often having whirled or wild grain which is not straight, and hence, not well suited for longer slender shapes.

If you want a Baton made of Lignum Vitae, you'd best insist on a blank which has staright grain, no knots or whirls...


This might not be easy to find.


Cocobolo, Purpleheart, Rosewoods, Bocate, Osage Orange/Bodarc...other 'heavy/dense' Woods, are more easily found having straight grain and no structural compromise or flaws.



Phil
Las Vegas

[GoodKat]

Hmm, I suppose I could always get a hickory stick and "load" the end, I'm pretty sure that's legal here in SC.

[chugokujin]

Carl,

Thanks for the warm welcome. I've enjoyed your posts in the past, as they are very informative. Yes, you are correct. Most bokken (nunchaku too) used in Japan are made of white oak which is supposed to be a bit lighter, but just as dense as its American counterpart. White waxwood is used quite a bit in China for handles and is just as legendary in toughness, though, bugs seem to love it.

What you said about certain hardwoods taking "steady pressure" is what I generally understand (as I'm not a woodworker) about which woods make tougher impact weapons. Hickory, Osage, and others can take "suddenly applied loads" better. Meaning if I were to drop a weight on a suspended hickory board, rather than place the weight gently, it would be more forgiving.

To further add, when it comes to scabbard making, some swordsmiths will ask what the climate is like when shaping the scabbard to sword for their client. Since sword scabbards are in longer lengths than knife lenghth ones, it too will expand or shrink depending on where the sword is sent resulting in either a fit too loose or tight.

GoodKat, I'm sure hickory would serve you well and I would take Oyeboten up on his offer. As for the "loading" part, you could prob get away with more in SC than here in NYC.

[Oyeboten]

So called 'Rock Maple' ( like what they used to make 'Scrabble' Tiles out of,)would be a good choice also...


For any Wood Species, there will be a range of speific gravity found in various samples/examples.


Of course, a Wooden Night Stick which one wishes to be as heavy as possible, would require as heavy a Wood as possible...

So...among various pieces say, of Northern White Oak, Hickory, Maple, Beech, Locust, or other domestic Woods, there can be pieces of unusual density/weight.


Some Species of Palm Wood (which technically are not 'Wood', but, 'Grass',)are very dense and heavy and very strong and tough also.

[scythefwd]

cocobolo is solid. Purple heart also can take a beating and has some weight to it.

Oyeboten,
I would avoid Rock Maple. I have had several bos made from it that split when I use them (from torque, I use the purple heart or cocobolo for impact work). It isn't even the 1/4 of it that hits my hip, its the 3/4 of it (about 4-4.5ft) of it in front of my front hand. I've lost a couple that way.

I have found that purple heart will dry out and crack if you leave it sit too long. When I get my bos, tonfa, etc. that will be taking real hits, they get treated with boiled linseed oil or tong oil every couple of days for the first few weeks. I do a wipe down with the oil every few months again just to keep it loaded. Seems to work so far... I haven't had one break yet. There was this one oak? bo that wouldn't dent with a two handed swing into concrete filled steel poles. We sent it off to get it straightened in a steam box and received a cardboard tube folded in thirds back. It would have taken a break to fold that tube with the bow in it, so it looks like we got taken advantage of.

[Marlin 45 carbine]

poster#16 mentioned 'blackthorn' which if it's what I think it is grows in parts of upstate S.C. near or in wet bottoms. that stuff is incredibly tough and near as dense as 'ironwood' or 'blue beech' which grows around streams here in WNC. it's straight grained too AFAIK, I haven't worked any of it.
myself I prefer sassafras for a 'walking staff' it's light but very flexible.

[GoodKat]

poster#16 mentioned 'blackthorn' which if it's what I think it is grows in parts of upstate S.C. near or in wet bottoms. that stuff is incredibly tough and near as dense as 'ironwood' or 'blue beech' which grows around streams here in WNC.
I think that's what shillelaghs are made out of, probably a good candidate.

Does anyone know anything about "stabalization", there's very little information on the internet but what I've gleaned says that it makes it harder and heavier, I wonder it it would compromise a stick's toughness.

Some Species of Palm Wood (which technically are not 'Wood', but, 'Grass',)are very dense and heavy and very strong and tough also.
That sounds very interesting, especially considering that according to wikipedia "Coconut trees have no annual growth rings, rays, heartwood or branches, meaning that Palmwood is free from knots and other such imperfections." I see that it's being used to make hockey sticks, but a discussion I read on a woodworking forum seemed to imply that it requires some kind of chemical bath(stabalization?) to pevent it from splintering.

[Kingcreek]

I'm no expert but I think "stabilization" is usually done with dry wood (or bone) placed for a period of time in a vacuume chamber with a urathane or resin finish, so it can be drawn further into the wood than just surface applying. usually for knife handles and such.

[chugokujin]

I don't know if Black locust, which was mentioned is the same as Blackthorn? I'm sure someone here could chime in.

Kingcreek is right on about the stablization process. I've also noticed Nelsonite as a popular wood stabilizing media. As an aside, some say kiln drying can hurt the wood if not done properly or too quickly. Nothing beats natural aging but it takes a long time.

[Oyeboten]

'Stabilization' can be acheived by protracted immersion in a Polyethylene Glycol Solution usually called 'P.E.G.'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyethylene_glycol


This is essentially a liquid plastic which capilaries into the Pores and solidifes there...adding to the weight, and, for-ever prevening any exchange with Atmospheric or other Moisture.


Repeated and protracted immersion in hot solutions of so-called 'Hard Oils' (or hardening Oils, such as Linseed or Tung or others, with 'driers' added,) can offer a similar result, if probably less effectively.



Some Woods are too dense and relatively non-porous, for either method to permiate in order to make much difference.



Adding a meaningful Lead core to a Wooden Baton will substiantially weaken it oweing to then then overly thin 'walls' of the insturment...where, one - in my opinion anyway - would be better off merely using Lead to begin with, covered in stout well stitched Leather, with a non-
Leaded Leather Handle, and, having a Sap or Black-Jack, instead of a Baton or Night Stick.

[GoodKat]

Adding a meaningful Lead core to a Wooden Baton will substiantially weaken it oweing to then then overly thin 'walls' of the insturment...where, one - in my opinion anyway - would be better off merely using Lead to begin with, covered in stout well stitched Leather, with a non-Leaded Leather Handle, and, having a Sap or Black-Jack, instead of a Baton or Night Stick.
I really want something with reach and momentum(to go for the knees). I'm thinking about using a tensioning rod to strengthen the stick and anchor the lead.

I already tried loading and 18" pinata bat with 8 ounces of lead, and it held up very well to a beating I gave my punching bag.