[bigbadgun]

I just got a CVA hawkens .50 It has a 209 primer system. But for the life of me I cant figure how it works does the primer go inside the little cover where the Hammer strikes? I have never seen a priming system like this before. Just want to make sure I buy the right pieces to go with it.

[alemonkey]

Looks like maybe the outside cone unscrews, then you place the primer over the nipple and screw the cone back on?

[Dave Markowitz]

I don't think that take 209 primers. As alemonkey said, the outside cover unscrews. You then use a regular rifle or pistol primer. Don't know if you'd use small or large.

[mykeal]

That's not a 209 conversion. It's for pistol primers, which are even more rare than hen's teeth. Take it off and use regular caps.

[Chawbaccer]

Pain in butt to use, especially on a cold day. Take it off and install a No. 11 nipple.

[bigbadgun]

ok so is it a matter of just taking off the cap and installing a regular nipple?

[mykeal]

Nope. Need to remove the entire adapter. It screws out like a nipple.

[bigbadgun]

thanks mykeal got the new nipple installed. This is the one i have been wanting for a long time.

[billnpatti]

Now that you have removed the 209 device, my advice to you is to take it to the nearest swamp and throw it as far as you can. That thing is the most worthless thing ever foisted on the unsuspecting muzzleloader owners. Just my humble opinion.

[mykeal]

I would vote for some of the nipple wrenches and cappers I've had the misfortune to encounter over the years, but that 'conversion unit' thing would certainly be well up in the running.

[bigbadgun]

What ever that ignition system was is now off the rifle and should be sitting in the bottom of a lake. Unless it floats. Thanks for all the help guys.

[arcticap]

If the unit uses a 209 primer, it's a Mag Spark primer adaptor. These have been redesigned since October, 2008:

http://www.warrencustomoutdoor.com/images/mag-spark.jpg

NOTE: The newest versions of the spare caps are not interchangeable with Mag Sparks purchased prior to October 2008.

http://www.warrencustomoutdoor.com/pl-spark-start.html

If it uses small rifle [magnum] primers, it's a discontinued Accra-Shot primer adaptor:

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=88729&d=1228470309

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=88728&d=1228470287

These produce more certain ignition and are mostly used for hunting purposes. MCgunner indicated that using the Accra-Shot eliminated hang fires with his Cabela's Hawken Hunter Carbine and made it more water resistant.
If a person spends hundreds of dollars to go on a hunt including travel, guide & permit fees and then had a chance to harvest a trophy animal after trying for days, then anyone can understand why they would want to have more certain ignition.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=4058022&postcount=9

[Das Jaeger]

Arcticap is that some Hunting Regulations and seasons do not allow the use of Modern Primers as a means of ignition on BP guns , Pennsylvania rings a bell as one of them thar states . Although I think they go one step farther and Flint Lock only ?
I would assume , and correct me if I am wrong , but could one not use a Musket Cap nipple on any of these rifles if they so wanted ? May take changing over the drum of course too , but at least it wouldn't be a LEAR JET black powder rifle .
They way I see it , its like spark plugs in a car , a spark is a spark , and only one spark lights this thing off anyway . The 209 system is overkill huh ? Maybe ? Can't be good on the drum , must wear that out pretty quick I am thinkin too . :D

Das Jaeger

[bigbadgun]

Thanks for that bit of information. But I have installed a #11 nipple and it works fine. It just seems like it would be a pain in the neck to take that thing off everytime you want to take a shot. This is my first sidelock rifle. And I got it for a great deal. So if there is a little something that I need to purchase to make this as smooth as possible then so be it lol.
I have a CVA Blazer That I have taken hogs out as far as 100 yards. But I have always liked the look of the Hawkens So now I got one lol.

[Dave Markowitz]

Arcticap is that some Hunting Regulations and seasons do not allow the use of Modern Primers as a means of ignition on BP guns , Pennsylvania rings a bell as one of them thar states . Although I think they go one step farther and Flint Lock only ?

Correct, PA's black powder season is flintlock only.

[mykeal]

I would disagree with the characterization of 209 and rifle/pistol primer adapters as producing more certain ignition. That presumes that there are inherent ignition problems with percussion caps (either musket or No.10/11's) or flint.

I would be embarrassed to have such a device on my gun as it would openly announce my inability to properly tune or load my gun to obtain reliable ignition with a more traditional system. Ignition reliability problems are the fault of the gun's owner, not the gun.

[Ginormous]

Send it to me bigbadgun, I have a project that could benefit from this type of ignition system. :)

Here, hold ma beer, and watch this!

Seriously, send it on, if you're just going to throw it away.

[bigbadgun]

Let me see if its still floating in the lake I tossed it in.lol

[Ginormous]

Darn. Then gimme my beer back. :)

[Ratdog68]

Aye laddie... but do ya mind if it passes through me kidneys first? :neener:

[Ginormous]

:what: Upon further reflection, I've decided to donate the beer.

[Ratdog68]

Got another one? :D

[Ginormous]

Last time I let someone hold my beer whilst I performed a watch this!, it didn't work out so good. Can I trust you?

[Ratdog68]

Absofrigginlutely !!! Trust me, I tells yaz. :D

[bigbadgun]

Roflmfao

[arcticap]

Pennsylvania has 2 muzzle loader seasons, one allows "muzzleloading long gun of any type or caliber" and the other is the "flintlock muzzleloader season" where no percussion guns are allowed. The primer adaptor is not illegal to use in Pennsylvania, but maybe elsewhere.

http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/view.asp?a=465&q=151336

I would disagree with the characterization of 209 and rifle/pistol primer adapters as producing more certain ignition. That presumes that there are inherent ignition problems with percussion caps (either musket or No.10/11's) or flint.

I would be embarrassed to have such a device on my gun as it would openly announce my inability to properly tune or load my gun to obtain reliable ignition with a more traditional system. Ignition reliability problems are the fault of the gun's owner, not the gun.

I heard enough complaints about ignition problems with some Lyman factory nipples and CVA Bobcats and how their incidence can be reduced by installing a better performing after market nipple.
That indicates to me that it's not always the fault of the owner that a gun misfires.
More potent primers can enhance performance by burning powder quicker and increasing velocity and apparently can also help reduce the potential incidence of misfires just like after market nipples can.
A small rifle primer is not even as hot as a musket cap, and using a musket cap isn't anything to be embarrassed about because it's just like buying insurance.


On page 83 of DaveEhrig's book "Muzzleloading for Deer & Turkey", he lists some information on percussion caps and primers.
#11 standard cap - 6.53 cc of gas at 3,024 degrees F when fired.
#11 magnum cap - 7.59 cc of gas at 3,717 degrees F when fired.
U.S. #2 musket cap - 14.36 cc of gas at 3,717 degrees F when fired.
#209 shotgun primer - 21.98 cc of gas at 3,024 degrees F when fired.
#200 rifle primer - 11.68 cc of gas at 3,024 degrees F when fired.

[mykeal]

You are certainly correct about the Lyman OEM nipples. I've replaced mine with Tresos. In hindsight I wasn't very clear about my opinion above. To me, using a 209/rifle/pistol primer adapter to replace a nipple is a statement that there are no nipples that will give acceptable performance; in other words, the design itself is flawed. I certainly don't accept that premise. I've never encountered a percussion or flintlock gun with ignition reliability problems that couldn't be fixed with a good cleaning followed by a new (sometimes premium) nipple or flint and perhaps some lock adjusting.

I am aware of Ehrig's numbers. Interesting, certainly (I'm curious about the temperatures - they seem unusually repetitive). However, I'm not necessarily inclined to simply accept that if 6.53 cc of gas is good, 21.98 must of necessity be better, or that if 6.53 cc of gas is somehow inadequate, 21.98 is the solution. It may be that the problem is just getting that 6.53 cc to the right place at the right time.

I do not dispute that a 209/rifle/pistol conversion can improve a faulty ignition. situation. I just don't feel that it's a more certain solution than applying some elbow grease and attention to the original design hardware.

I guess it comes down to this: if you're having problems with a traditional design (defined as sidelock for this discussion) percussion ignition system, my sensibilities would tend to stay with the traditional design equipment. I've never seen that fail to work. Slapping on a hot dog ignitor may bring results, but it's covering up the real problem.

And yes, I'd be embarrassed about a musket cap on a Lyman Great Plains. The Treso doesn't embarrass me, however. Maybe it should but I look at it as a better implementation of the original design, whereas a musket cap would be a design change, one that's unnecessary.

I'd still shoot with anyone who had a 209 primer conversion. I just wouldn't use one myself.