[inSight-NEO]

I started this thread because, time and time again, I have seen or heard references made to a shotguns (or handgun, rifle..whatever) longevity when comparing say, Remingtons to Mossbergs to Benellis to Brownings, to...you get the idea.

My question is, what does "longevity" actually mean? Does it refer to accuracy? Reliability? Finish? Functionality? All of the above?

Does any quality weapon reach a point to where it is simply unuseable, particularly if it has been properly cared for and maintained?

What I really mean to say is this - Lets say one shotgun remains accurate or experiences fewer (if any) malfunctions over a given timeframe...say decades vs. another, due to stronger parts or whatnot, is this really a valid issue given that replacement parts for the likes of Remington or Mossberg are plentiful and once implemented, could essentially allow the weapon to start from "zero"?

In cases such as this, does "longevity" really matter, particularly when many weapons (in this case, shotguns) can typically have a "lifespan" of one, two or more lifetimes (unless, of course, they have had an unusual amount of ammo put through them on an annual basis)?

Keep in mind, this topic is for "information/opinion gathering" only and is not meant to be combative in any way, shape or form.

[WardenWolf]

It depends. Many shotguns use a cast receiver and cannot be disassembled fully for cleaning. The area behind the bolt eventually becomes gummed up and if you can't clean it, you'll have a useless gun. This is one reason why I chose a Saiga 12, because the AK platform can be fully disassembled for cleaning without tools.

[rcmodel]

I don't think it really matters anymore.

At one time, a dedicated trap-shooter could wear out a Model 12 Winchester receiver after about a gazillion rounds.

But newer designs like the 870 & Mossy no longer lock into a recess in the receiver.

They lock into a barrel extension, and the receiver is really just a shell to hold the parts together.

There is really nothing on an 870 you could wear out that couldn't be replaced by the village idiot in 30 minutes or less if you did manage to wear something out.
But very few people will shoot one that much in a lifetime.

Many shotguns use a cast receiver that can't be cleaned
Hmmmmm? I don't think so!

rc

[Rshooter]

Well, you can wear one out with hard use and misuse. I have seen guns rusted beyond saving. :banghead: Then the question would be which gun is the most idiot proof?

Personally I like old Police guns, the oldest I have found is a gun from the fifties, that beat a gun from the sixties. I believe that sometimes the oldest guns are a matter of owners and how they care for them. :)

[Tijeras_Slim]

100 years or 100,000 rounds... whichever comes first.

[ArmedBear]

There is really nothing on an 870 you could wear out that couldn't be replaced by the village idiot in 30 minutes or less if you did manage to wear something out.
But very few people will shoot one that much in a lifetime.

870 receivers most certainly can be rendered unserviceable by use. They crack behind the ejection port. Trap shooters still do it, but not with light-recoil loads meant for Singles... Sometimes, it doesn't take al that many rounds to do it. That's why these guys have 870s -- so they don't trash their Perazzi, Ljutic, or Krieghoff with hot stuff.

[Virginian]

I have seen 870s (and 1100s) where the receiver was literally worn out by the action bars making who knows how many passes back and forth, but cracked receivers being common ?! I don't think so. I have seen guns that went over 400,000 rounds. Some of those guys were probably shooting 870s before those high dollar O/Us listed even existed. I remember when the traplines were 870 territory as they took over from the Model 12 crowd, before O/Us got really popular.
Most decent quality guns can last until they are either worn out from use, or abuse. Target guns see much heavier use than anything else. I don't know that anyone has ever attempted a head to head between brands, or that the results would be meaningful. The expensive O/U target guns can be rebuilt in all the wear areas.

[MCgunner]

I'm a hunter. A Mossberg or Remington would last me 3 lifetimes. Avid trap and skeet fanatics might wear a gun out, but not me.

[ArmedBear]

cracked receivers being common ?! I don't think so.

They're somewhat common among Friday Night Game trap shooters, at least the guys who shoot heavy loads.

You can call that abuse, and maybe it is. If someone shoots 3 dram-equivalent birdshot loads, or lighter, cracked receivers are essentially nonexistent, even at several hundred thousand rounds as you said.

However, it sure helps to know that this DOES happen, and that guns that these guns are available for sale here and there.

It does nobody a lick of good to claim that this doesn't happen. The buyer DOES need to beware.

I've bought a shot-out gun (not an 870) because I didn't know what to look for.

[orphanedcowboy]

I don't know when an A5 would be considered worn out, I have yet to see one that would not function with out a good cleaning.

I have several that have seen 80+ years of service and still function just like the day left the factory.

Y'all keep the others, I will keep shooting an A5.

[Virginian]

I swear I have never even heard of a cracked receiver on an 870 before in my life. Sportsman 58s, yes - that's why they changed the receiver on the 1100. 1100LW 20 gauges, yep that's why they supposedly went to the LT receiver design, even though I have never seen a bad LW. But why would an 870 receiver crack? The main stresses are in the barrel and bolt, there is no handle slot to create stress risers, and the cycling is all manual. The receivers are all exactly the same for 2-3/4" and 3" guns, except the ejector and ejector spring dimensions, and who knows how many thousands of very heavy 3" loads have been shot out of them. That is about all mine has ever seen. Out of ten million I can imagine a very few with manufaturing defects popping up somewhere along the line, but cracked receivers are not common.

[Dave McCracken]

870 receivers CAN crack. Supposedly, it occurs after about 250K rounds. Never seen one happen.

The oddball 870 Competition that was a single shot did crack behind the slot in the receiver. Some of those were "Fixed" with a small hole drilled at the terminus of the crack.

Some 870s develop headspace probs after LOTS of heavy loads. Remington makes an oversized locking block to fix that. I've had only up to 20K rounds through aby 870 and no headspace or cracking issues. I doubt I'll live long enough to have any issues.

As for other common guns.....

Beretta O/Us may need a bit of tightening someplace north of 75K rounds. Newer models have drop in parts.

Superposeds seem to trundle on forever, needing only cleaning and forearm latch work.

Parkers need occasional tuneups. The Del Gregos are the leaders there.

A-5s, and the Remington and Savage sibs of same need new springs and friction pieces every so often. I'd change them out every 10-20K rounds.

1100s will glitch up after maybe 40K rounds,according to sources better informed than I. Swapping small parts and springs will extend their working life indefinitely.

Similar sources tell me that Model 12s can be shot loose. Headspace here is a gunsmith only fix. New steel is added by welding and filed to fit.

Even 500s can last a long time. My best guess there is someplace between 35-50K rounds.

HTH....

[oneounceload]

100 years or 100,000 rounds... whichever comes first.

At 100,000 rounds, a Kreighoff is starting to get broken in. Dan Orlich has easily put over 1,000,000 rounds through his Ljutic, serial number 1 - A good gun, properly maintained and subjected to abuse, should last for a looooooooooooong time

[MCgunner]

How many Mossbergs or 870 expresses can you buy for one Kreighoff? If my 500 ever did "wear out" in my use, a new one's as close as Academy. :rolleyes: No, I don't go around trying to impress my friends with it, they're impressed enough by ME when I'm shooting it. It's just a tool with which I shoot waterfowl, basically. I shoot lots of heavy loads in it, steel high velocity loads. It's been going 20 years now. I probably only have 20 years left, if that, duck hunting. 20 years I'll be 76 years old. Even if I buy another Mossberg, I've only spend 600 bucks on shotguns for waterfowl in 40 years. :rolleyes: I expect my 500 will last that long and then some, though.

I never got that into clay bird shooting, though. I tried, but I just can't find a decent recipe for 'em.

[ArmedBear]

Waterfowl hunters are far more likely to rust, lose or otherwise trash their shotguns than "wear them out" by shooting them, though I know someone who wore out a Mossberg -- well, he and his son, in harsh conditions. Maybe his father shot it, too.:)

As MC says, who cares if you wear it out? That's what a Mossberg is for. If you've had enough fun to wear it out, the last thing to complain about it having to replace it.

I don't think anyone takes a Krieghoff into a salt marsh regularly. But they're hard to beat for shooting clays on a competitive level.

[Two Cold Soakers]

100 years or 100,000 rounds...

That's only 1000 round per year!!!

Bwaaa haha

[dom1104]

what it means to me is, I can buy a 40 year old 870 and be confident.

Thats pretty much it.

[ArmedBear]

I can buy a 40 year old 870 and be confident.


I would still look it over...:)

If nothing seems awry, you can probably be confident.

[win71]

It means that the Model 12 my grandfather gave my dad who finally gave me is still killing Pheasants.

[Virginian]

Okay, I stand somewhat corrected. I did once see an 870 Competition model with a hole drilled at the end of the slot to supposedly correct a crack. But, that is such an oddball design from a real 870 I think I ought to get a full Mulligan anyway.

[ReloaderFred]

My wife's solid frame Model 1897 Winchester was built in 1899. She shoots it in matches twice a month, and it's still tight and ready for the next match. I shoot a newer Model 97, made in 1912, but mine is a take-down model. It's still tight and has lots of adjustment left in the barrel cog.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Two Cold Soakers]

I'd shoot a 1969 model 870 without blinking, assuming its mechanisms are all intact and the barrel isn't bulged or too pitted.

The OP asks about overall longevity - I'll speak my personal opinion.

I've got a Mossberg pump that I use(d) duck & pheasant hunting. Cost 250 dollars new. Let's just say that the barrel got bent and the receiver cracked from getting run over by a truck or something. I'd trash it - Strip the bolt and rails and trigger into a coffee can for spares and buy another. Not worth the 250 or so to fix.

I've also got a -no-name Italian SxS that was bought for less than 100 dollars new in the early 60's. It was my dad's. I used it to shoot my first grouse (and several more). Used it on my first 25/25 (and several more). If it got run over by a truck I'd take out a loan on my house to fix it. I know there are smiths that will custom cut wood or machine new sears if needed. I'll do it.

SO, in the spirit of the original post, what is longevity?
I'd say, in this context, owner commitment to the iron in question.

In the OPs words, reliability and functionality.

[ArmedBear]

I have a 1926-vintage 16 Gauge Lefever Nitro Special (Ithaca-made, pre-dated the NID but was very similar). I still hunt with it, too.:)

[Hagen442]

I use my 1968 Remington Model 1100 12 Gauge in a 3 Gun Tactical Configuration( PLastic) Pistol Grip with a Rifle Barrel and Rifle Sights.10 Round Tube
This Old Lady and I have Put To Rest a mess of Ducks a lot of Quail and Dove and a few Hogs on the table with different Barrels to do the Job.
I currently own 5 1100s in different Guages including a new Light 20 for Sporting Clays.
As you can see I am sold on the 1100 over the Brownings and Others over 40 Plus Years
of Shooting.

[rcmodel]

I'd still like to know the dynamics of 870 receiver cracking.

It really doesn't do anything except hold all the parts in their proper places.

So, what cracks them?
Recoil against your shoulder?
Empties dinging against the ejector when you shuck them out?
Herculean effort on the pump-action?
High freq vibration transfer from the barrel/bolt lock-up?

Help me understand.

rc

[bejay]

I would say longevity in how youve seen it used, is how long a gun will function before something breaks or wears out and when it does fail its really up to the owner to decide if its worth fixing sure parts may be availble but they may not be either, parts for the old guns can be hard to find even if it is a remington and im talking pre 1100 and 870 guns at best you can usually find a good used part and thats with a domestic, look at all the imported shotguns that was never very common that would be even more difficult to find parts for.
even if a gun needs a couple of parts replaced over 10 years it could be fixed most of the time and not really effect its life but reliability and function probably wasnt good when those parts failed.

[ArmedBear]

High freq vibration transfer from the barrel/bolt lock-up?

That could be it.

The 870 Competition is a special case, though. It's a single-shot gun. You use the foreend to open and close the action, and to eject the spent round. The magazine tube doesn't hold any rounds.

There's a port in the barrel, like an 1100, but it propels a weight back instead of the whole action, inside what would be the mag tube in a regular 870. That serves as an active recoil reduction system like a gas-operated semiauto, without the semiauto part.:)

My guess is that the weight slamming back when heavy loads are used in the gun is a contributing factor in premature cracking.

These guns are popular among the Saturday Night Gamers, trap shooters who shoot at very long ranges behind handicap, compete in Annie Oakley shoots, chip shoots, etc. Some of them use very heavy loads to get high velocity and a dense pattern on target at 70+ yards.

My real point is about buying a gun. Examine it very closely, and if you don't know what to look for, bring someone who does.

If I buy a new 870, it may last essentially forever. My bottom-of-the-line Express has a lot of finish wear on the stock, but otherwise is as-new after I-dunno-how-many-thousand rounds.

But if I buy a used one of unknown provenance, it COULD have problems. The good news is that they should be relatively obvious, and that most of them, by far, won't have any issues.

[oneounceload]

For me personally, my longest running shotgun is my Browning Gti - over 15 years and somewhere between about 85,000 and 95,000 rounds so far - just had new springs and firing pins put in and the action tightened up a little. It's ready for another go

[Two Cold Soakers]

I'd still like to know the dynamics of 870 receiver cracking ... So, what cracks them?

Running them over with a truck!

Help me understand.

You are welcome. :neener:

[rcmodel]

Running them over with a truck just bends them!
I've seen it happen.

Thanks for your help?

rc

[Virginian]

Apparently, a Remington shape steel receiver, used in conjunction with a gas operated mechanism to either operate the action or attenuate recoil, and without the little extra long small slot that is present on 1100 and 11-87 receivers at the rear of the bigger slot, sees some kind of transient stresses that cause cracks to start, on some guns, at the rear of the existing slot.
What more can be said about it I don't know. I don't know how much work Remington even did on the issue other than add the smaller slot on the semi autos.

[ArmedBear]

I don't know how much work Remington even did on the issue...

Sometimes I think that Remington lays off their R&D staff after each project. The idea of doing little engineering tweaks over decades of production, to make those little improvements that make a real difference for pennies, seems utterly foreign to the corporate culture at Big Green.

Problems with the bolt lock on the safety? Remove it!
Cracking receivers? Cut a slot!
Triggers that cut fingers? La la la we can't hear you!

You end up with guns that are generally pretty good, but with little quirks that can make them annoying. When those annoying quirks persist for 50 or 60 years, it doesn't exactly make me want to buy a new Remington.

Remington was the company that brought us the reliable gas-operated semiauto. You'd think they would have been able to come up with another good one, with some improvements over the 1100, in 50 years of production. But no, they really haven't.

Just got a new 390 (not easy to find). Simple, reliable system. Easier to produce than an 1100 from what I can tell, but with none of the Remington's annoying quirks. Remington couldn't do that themselves, given 50 years to do it?

[swampboy]

Sometimes I think that Remington lays off their R&D staff after each project. The idea of doing little engineering tweaks over decades of production, to make those little improvements that make a real difference for pennies, seems utterly foreign to the corporate culture at Big Green.

Sounds a lot like The Big Three!

[mljdeckard]

One must remember, that for every foolproof system, there is a fool out there who wants to make a name for himself.

[swampboy]

One must remember, that for every foolproof system, there is a fool out there who wants to make a name for himself.

I'm stealin' that one!

[mljdeckard]

You may take it. It's just a question of finding a sufficiently talented fool.

[Virginian]

ArmedBear, I think you just don't like Big Green.
Problems with the bolt lock on the safety? Remove it!
Best thing they could have done. How many long time S&W fans are begging for them to lose their crummy lock, too?

Cracking receivers? Cut a slot!
What is wrong with that? It has worked for 50 years. You are the only person I have ever heard of who thinks Remington's have a cracking receiver problem since the introduction of the 1100s. I am an engineer. In machine design that is just one of the different things you do to reduce stress risers on machined parts. And whether you got there by calculation or empirical testing the result should be the same as long as you cured the problem.

Triggers that cut fingers? La la la we can't hear you!
You are right on this one. I think maybe they are ignoring you and the one other person I have ever heard of with this complaint because 2 (or even 20 maybe) out of 14 million or so isn't worth worrying about. I have shot them any way possible, including one-handed, for 51 years now, and I never heard a hint of this until the last year. I am not saying you didn't have the problem.

I do think they have cut back on their engineering staff. And, being an engineer, I don't tend to favor that. But, I have a bigger problem. If I was them, I don't know what I would do to "upgrade" the 1100/11-87 or 870 lines of guns. I am not talking about new designs like the 887, but real upgrades. I really don't know if it would be worth it to redesign the existing "very simple and it works plenty good enough" gas system to run maybe several hundreds of rounds longer between cleanings at the expense of that simplicity. How many potential customers need that? You are never going to touch a Vinci design with a gas gun anyway, and I don't care what they do with multi-part stocks and "fit", it's always going to kick anyone but Benelli lover's butts worse than a gas gun. Even if you do it, How many Browning, Winchester, Mossberg, or WalMart Beretta buyers are you going to win over? They are every bit as brand loyal blind as Remington lovers in reverse.
What do you do to the 870? The most popular shotgun design in history. First, there's nothing wrong with it, except it isn't plastic enough for a lot of the newer generation of shooters. The only way to sell more seems to be to make the cheapest versions even cheaper.
I am a died in the wool Remington guy, and I don't even have a good suggestion for them.

[testosterone]

100 years or 100,000 rounds... whichever comes first.
100,000 rounds for someone that even shoots trap on a moderate basis is nothing to get to...

[Marlin 45 carbine]

I don't shoot clay birds and no more than I can beat the bushes for birds and/or small game anymore I just need the shotty to stand up to really bad weather conditions while in a stand or blind and fire every time. and be reliable for H-D/SHTF situs when I get home.

[ArmedBear]

Best thing they could have done. How many long time S&W fans are begging for them to lose their crummy lock, too?

Do you know what a bolt-lock safety is?

Here's a clue. You won't find it on a shotgun.

I don't know what I would do to "upgrade" the 1100/11-87 or 870 lines of guns.

I do.

Pick up a Beretta and it's obvious. Hell, pick up a MOSSBERG and it's obvious.

Eliminate the O-ring, simplify the gas action, lighten up the gun, change the trigger reach, improve the trigger guard, lengthen the safety button, change out the trigger itself to something user-friendly, improve the stock shape, and round off the sharp edges.

Here's a picture of some 391 controls. Unlike the Remington's, the Beretta's trigger feels fine on a bare finger, and it also doesn't catch gloves. The safety is much easier to work, and easier to feel whether it's engaged or not, even through gloves. These little changes, for example, could have been made EASILY by Remington, with little cost but a significant increase in user satisfaction.

http://www.sportinggun.co.uk/imageBank/cache/b/Beretta_Al391_Lightweight_shotgun_trigger.jpg_e_3143c22d39ecab1f4f93373840bc5ec5.jpg

None of this requires a total redesign. It would fall under "continual improvement." The fact that Remington has done none of these things tells me that they're not even trying to.

Don't think users care? Why do you think so many shooters quit buying Remingtons other than the low-end models, and started buying Berettas, Benellis, et al.?

[Deer Hunter]

Over 50 inches overall.

[PJR]

I really don't know if it would be worth it to redesign the existing "very simple and it works plenty good enough" gas system to run maybe several hundreds of rounds longer between cleanings at the expense of that simplicity.
I'd say the 1100 in its current form works barely good enough and is outpaced by most gas guns on the market today. The only good thing about them IMO is that parts are available and not outrageously expensive. When you do need parts order two at the same time. You'll need them.

[ArmedBear]

I really don't know if it would be worth it to redesign the existing "very simple and it works plenty good enough" gas system to run maybe several hundreds of rounds longer between cleanings at the expense of that simplicity.

I missed that line...

Virginian, have you ever field-stripped a 390?

It's SIMPLER than an 1100, despite it shooting light 2 3/4" to heavy 3" rounds without adjustment, having no O-ring, and running longer between cleanings. Fewer parts, simpler assembly, less to clean.

Remington deserves credit for bringing the gas-operated autoloader to the mass market. 50 years ago, it was a pretty impressive feat.

This is 2009, not 1959.

[oneounceload]

Right now, Remington's claim to fame for me with their 1100 is the availability of a target-grade 28 and 410.

If I was in the market for a 12 or 20, they would not even be in consideration.

AB if you want longevity - remember the Cosmi - the original prototype from 1925 still works

http://www.cosmi.net/uk/ukstoria.htm

[ArmedBear]

the availability of a target-grade 28 and 410.

"Target-grade" 28 or .410, to me, means not having to chase my hulls. I'm too poor to afford a pissboy.:D

SKB makes some nice target-grade 28/.410 sets...

[JonB]

Interesting question. For me, a shotgun will last a lifetime and probably on into my kids lifetimes.

A different take: I park my travel trailer (aka the camper) just out of town at a retired gentleman's farm. I was talking to him last time I was out there and he says he considers shotguns to be 'throw aways' as he doesn't ever clean them. So when they 'quit working' he throws it away and buys a new one. I need to call him back and see if he really is just tossing it in the trash or if he is trading them in or what. If he goes 2-3 seasons without cleaning, heck that gun is just getting broken in. Might have to see if he'd sell it to me cheap.

[Virginian]

I am sure you will not care, but all those wonderful "improvements" on a Beretta, I don't particularly like. I can't abide a safety in front of the trigger, just for example. I have no issues with trigger reach, the trigger guard, sharp triggers, stock shape, weight, ... none of it. It's not right or wrong, it's preference.
I'm not saying Beretta doesn't build decent guns, I am saying I don't like the feel of them. The same way you don't like the feel on the Remington. I also think Beretta has done some very smart things, and I think one of those is probably targeting people who do not really like the feel of the Remingtons. Another thing is they have blown away all the competition with their marketing. No question they are the "in" brand right now, especially if you include Benelli, which they own. Absolutely the model of the industry.

[ArmedBear]

"Feel" or not, the Remington is an inferior piece of machinery to its competitors in 2009.

Curiosity: what's the newest Remington autoloader you have bought?

And have you ever field-stripped a 390 and compared it to an 1100 (or an 11-87 for a more "apples to apples" comparison)?

[Virginian]

My "newest" shotgun I own now, after a big adjustment after a bout with cancer last year, is a 1977 Remington LT-20. I have owned plenty of newer guns, I think the last was a 2005 model, but sold them off. I have broken down a 390 and a 303 I think, but it has been a while, and plenty of 11-87s. I had a couple of 11-87s and never had any problems with them. Gas systems are different for sure, but I didn't see anything revolutionary or earth shattering. Like two different automotive transmissions, or two different brands of hydraulic pumps; just different ways to accomplish the same function. If a Beretta felt better to me I would probably have a stable full of them instead of Remingtons. I didn't see any crappy machining or junk parts.
I do have two Beretta handguns (seeing as how they own Uberti now).

[PJR]

And have you ever field-stripped a 390 and compared it to an 1100 (or an 11-87 for a more "apples to apples" comparison)? Ironic timing. I was part of a group hosting an annual two-day shoot this past weekend for newbies and people who don't shoot clays regularly. Among the guns were a Beretta 390 and two of mine, a Beretta 391 and 28 gauge Remington 1100.

On the first outing the 390 starting having problems. We took it apart and it was filthy. The owner confessed he hadn't cleaned it from last year. A little time with action cleaner and a good spritz with G96 and it was 100 per cent for the rest of the trip.

Four guys shared my 391. They shot 1,200 rounds collectively. It worked perfectly.

The 1100 with its short stock and low recoil is my gun for women and small statured shooters. The woman using it shot just over 100 rounds when it went out of service. The bolt wouldn't close and the gun was difficult to open.

When I got home here's what I found when the gun came apart. A small piece had broken off from the action bars.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y148/2xmx8/ActionBar.jpg

This wasn't a problem because I had a spare set of action bars. The reason I had the spare set is because I had the same failure two years ago and always order two sets of any part that breaks.

The first time it happened the piece that broke off was larger and the gun had to be taken apart and hammered open. Since replacing the bars the first time the gun has fired less than 1,000 rounds.

The 28 gauge is the third Remington auto I've owned. One was fine, the other was very unreliable. Judging by my experience with both brands and the comments of the owners of new 1100s, compared to the serviceability and reliability of the Berettas there is no doubt the Remington isn't in the same league.

Now if we could only convince Beretta to make the 391 in 28 gauge. I'd happily off load that misbegotten Remington 1100.

[ArmedBear]

The 20 Gauge 391 is really light, so it still has some recoil.

However, the 390 and 3901, while still in the sub-7 lb. range I want from a 20, aren't as light as the 391.

The 20 Gauge 390 I just picked up has a plastic buttplate and has essentially no felt recoil with 7/8 oz. bulk Remington Sport Loads (I ditched my 20 Gauge press a while ago because I didn't like the particular model, and never got another one when lead prices rose so high -- I will probably reload 20 again at some point).

For light recoil AND cheap commercial ammo, I think it's hard to beat that gun in 20 as a low-recoil semi for those who want one.:)

I've wavered but never bought a 28. Hell, I have a 16, but no 28. This gun has made me less interested in 28 -- though if I see a deal on the right break-action 28 at some point, I'll consider it.

[mljdeckard]

I must be a tasteless Philistine, but not only do I not have any problem with the Remington action, I don't see myself switching. I've shot Benellis, Berettas, etc, I still don't know what's so terrible about the Remington actions or why it is that they should change an action that millions of people over generations seem to enjoy just fine. One day when I'm rich, I might get a better gun like a Browning Citori, something along those lines.

[ArmedBear]

There's certainly no reason to switch from something that works for you, and that you already own.

Did someone say there was?

[Two Cold Soakers]

"Target-grade" ..., to me, means not having to chase my hulls.

Thread winner.

[inSight-NEO]

A different take: I park my travel trailer (aka the camper) just out of town at a retired gentleman's farm. I was talking to him last time I was out there and he says he considers shotguns to be 'throw aways' as he doesn't ever clean them. So when they 'quit working' he throws it away and buys a new one. I need to call him back and see if he really is just tossing it in the trash or if he is trading them in or what. If he goes 2-3 seasons without cleaning, heck that gun is just getting broken in. Might have to see if he'd sell it to me cheap.

It seems like this guy needs to begin differentiating between "not working" and "jamming due to lack of maintenance." He would save quite a bit of money Id bet. Regardless, it sounds like this guy is either extremely lazy, extremely wasteful, just plain dumb or any combination thereof.

On the positive side, maybe you will be able to grab some of these guns at a steal of a price. ;)


BTW- Thanks for the responses everybody.

[ElToro]

i have a 1928 auto 5. it has been shot A LOT i bought it for <200 OTD. i shoot it frequently. when i bought it i bought a spring rebuild kit for it when the ones in there decide to go.

we also have in my family (since new!) a 1889 Parker double damascus that can shoot in a pinch.

any quality modern gun should last many, many 10s of thousands of rounds. if you can afford to shoot enough ammo to wear it out, you can afford a new gun.

[conhntr]

i have quit shooting competitively but when i did i kept pretty decent track of my guns. i shot primarirly trap but have almost 10,000 registered skeet/sporting targets as well.

#1. 870 field, ~1500 targets, another 500 plinking/hunting. 0 problems.

#2. used beretta 302 trap. had about 20k through it when i bought it, and i ran another 15k, would malfunction (2nd shot on doubles 100% on first shot) about 1/500 targets which is "ok" for comp. but not ideal will cost you targets. would only clean about every 1000 shots

#3. 1187 premier trap. 5k rounds needed cleaned every flat -250shots but was dead reliable with that cleaning regimine.

#4. beretta 682 greystone 70k targets. literally 0 gun malfunctions. every single FTF had a primer hit. only one fail-to-etract and the rim of a gun-club shell was out of whack and thinner than it should be and the ejector "jumped" it. sold the gun for 100$ less than i paid new for it 70k rounds later! that is longevity!

#5. sold the 682 b/c i "retired" and now am looking for an 1187/1100. shoot them well and its maintnance isnt as much an issue now that i dont shoot 4 flats a week.

my opinion;
autos beretta 302,303,390,391 and remington 1100, 1187 are equals.

but a good o/u or single puts an auto to shame longevity and reliability wise.

[oneounceload]

Longevity in hunting rifles is generally about 2000 rounds.....in target/varmint rifles...more like 3-7,000 rounds.......in target shotguns, usually about 100,000 to 500,000 rounds.............

somehow, this seems to be a no-brainer