[Ukraine Train]

I'm looking for one of these but for a BMG:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/images/Wound%20Profiles/223%20Remington%2050gr%20JSP.jpg

I can't find one probably because that round isn't intended to be used on people so maybe no one's done the testing.

[MaterDei]

The .50 BMG would look similar, only BIGGER. :)

Your diagram has me confused. I always thought that 5.56mm=.223, now it seems that it is really .224. Major paradigm shift. :scrutiny:

[Ukraine Train]

Probably a rounding error hehe.

[Brian Williams]

.223 commercial cartridge name for the 5.56x45
.224 actual bullet diameter
A, Cartridge Case
B, Bullet Dia.
C, Case Length
D, Rim Dia.
E, Neck Dia.
F, Shldr. Dia.
G, Base Dia.
H, Cart. OAL
I, Primer




A B C D E F G H I
223 Remington .224" 1.760" .375" .249" .349" .373" 2.100" SR

5.56 x 45mm NATO .224" 1.760" .375" .249" .349" .373" 2.260" Bx

[larryw]

Unless you're talking about shooting a cow-sized target lengthwise, I think you'll have a hard time finding one like that as the cavities will still be expanding by the time the bullet exits. In at 1/2", out about the size of a grapefrut.

[Daniel Watters]

"International Efforts to Restrict or Prohibit Military Small Arms: Annual Report" by W. Hays Parks (http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2001smallarms/parks2.pdf)

There is an interesting photo under the heading "Ballistic Glycerin Soap Penetration Test: Raufoss 12.7mm Multipurpose Ammunition".

An additional pair of black and white photos from the Raufoss testing are seen in the briefing from the previous year:

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/smallarms/Parks.pdf

(Look for the pages titled: "Raufoss Re-test".)

[Jim K]

Wound characteristics are a factor of the bullet, its diameter, mass, velocity and construction, not of the type of gun.

In other words, a .30-'06 FMJ bullet will have the same characteristics whether it is fired from a rifle or a machinegun. Of course, if the victim were hit several times, a more likely situation with a machinegun, the multiple wounds would be more severe than a single wound.

If the .50 BMG is meant, MaterDei (interesting name!) is correct; the same only bigger.

As for the ".224" all those numbers are a bit meaningless, intended only to distinguish cartridges. Remington developed a cartridge called the .222 that used a bullet of .224/225. Then they developed the .222 Magnum, with the same bullet diameter. Then they called the civilian version of the military 5.56 round the .223, while Winchester called a different cartridge with the same bullet diameter a .225. Weatherby used the same bullet diameter but split the difference in name by calling their round the .224 Weatherby.

In any case, the use of 5.56mm and .223 is a bit of apples and oranges. 5.56mm is .219, which is the bore diameter of the rifle barrel; .223 is sort of the diameter of the bullet and the groove diameter of the rifle barrel. (American bullets for reloading are stated to be .224 but mike at .2245-225; pulled bullets from some European makers go .225-227. Pick a number, anyone?)

Jim

[Gordon]

I spent the weekend packing in with a big time hunting guide. He told me of a customers use of a 50bmg on a 200 pound hog at a lazered 800yds. Hog was hit in the middle on first hit and ran until 3rd or 4th (Barrett Light Fifty) shot hit it again and broke spine. The Hornady A-Max bullet passed right thru first shot without much energy deposit, said this man who has see THOUSANDS of hits on Hogs. ;)

[7.62FullMetalJacket]

Ouch. That wound channel looks unreal for the .50 BMG. Grapefruit, indeed.

[50 Shooter]

Oooh Oooh Oooh, I wanna share.

****VERY GRAPHIC, VIEW AT OWN RISK****

[280PLUS]

but not for long,,,

:eek:

[Kobun]

The 50 BMG is not legal to use against personell in time of war. It is a anti material weapon.
"Aim for his backpack!" :D

[Art Eatman]

Kobun, you're joking, right? "The 50 BMG is not legal to use against personell in time of war."

Napalm and 105mm howitzers are okay, but a .50 isn't? And my silly halftrack had four of those illegal critters!

:D, Art

[280PLUS]

you're shooting at material, its not YOUR fault theyre getting in the way,,,

:D

[Al Thompson]

:rolleyes:

What an old chestnut. The use of a .50 on personnel is fine. Jeezaree!

[geekWithA.45]

The 50 BMG is not legal to use against personelle in time of war...

Well, then, so much for "Ma Deuce"

[Black Snowman]

If they can use the 30mm HEDP from an Apache I don't see why a .50 BMG would be out of the question. I had heard something about 20mm from a land vehicle being "naughty" but I've never heard of any war crime trials or even court marials over it. Of course I haven't researched it either.

We don't entirely follow all the "international laws" anyway (i.e. we use land mines) because we're the good guys :uhoh: Oh and who's going to punish us? :eek: We are the biggest gorilla on the block.

[Daniel Watters]

The US military's legal reviews of the .50 BMG Raufoss Multipurpose round (Mk 211 Mod 0) have issued the opinion that it may be used legally against personnel, as well as material targets. (DAJA-IO Memorandum (14 January 2000), Subject: Mk211, MOD 0, Cal. .50 Multipurpose Projectile; Legal Review.)

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2001smallarms/parks1.pdf

[Al Thompson]

Just to repeat, there is no problem with shooting people with a .50 or anything else. As for the land mines, we didn't sign the treaty as we wanted to retain our Claymore mines.

[Kobun]

Well, you can't use the 12,7x99 (.50BMG) against personell by Norwegian military ROE.
However, if you aim at the backpack...

Norwegians have a special connection to backpacks.
There is a saying (I think from WWII) that the Krag-Joergensen rifles in 6,5x55 could go straight through "Five men with backpacks".
In the german field manuals about Norway, it said that the (German) soldiers should be courteous to the people they meet, as Norwegians are not easily affected, and yelling only increases their stubborness.
The manual also said that the average Norwegian man could hit a human target at over 600 meters with his Krag-Joergensen.
This for sure affected the way German privates saw the Norwegians.

Not long ago, Norway purchased 150 Barret M82A1, and the issued round is the (Norwegian) Raufoss multi purpose .50BMG round.
I bet a lot of "material" targets (backpacks) would be in these sights if someone was to come here with not so nice intentions... ;)

[gun-fucious]

considering that this round blows chunks right thru manhole covers

i would think it would tend to over penetrate a HS target, fail to expand or shatter,
and do the 1/2 inch in, 1/2 inch out, right on thru to the otherside, routine

The temporary wound channel might exceed the dimensions of the target
making it blow up right good:
http://www.rbcd.net/_borders/gelati13.jpg

maybe a SLAP round would also set his mess kit in his backpack on fire
:evil:

there is a 50bmg hunting round:
http://www.rbcd.net/50%20BMG.html

[444]

"i would think it would tend to over penetrate a HS target, fail to expand or shatter,
and do the 1/2 inch in, 1/2 inch out, right on thru to the otherside, routine"

And this is bad ?

[Gordon]

I do want to say that head shot pic looks very similar to the numerous VC I saw hit in cranium with 5.56 or 7.62. I think any rifle above 2600fps and at least 1000 fpe produces this result to human heads! Not to disparage the wonderful .50BMG round , just reality!

[444]

"I do want to say that head shot pic looks very similar to the numerous VC I saw hit in cranium with 5.56 or 7.62."

I saw a guy that shot himself in the head with a 10mm handgun that look pretty much just like that. The missing pieces were hanging from the ceiling.

[Houndawg]

.223 commercial cartridge name for the 5.56x45.
.224 actual bullet diameter




That's weird, because 5.56mm converts to .219" and .224" converts to 5.69mm.

[Joe Demko]

The way the skull is blown apart in the headshot phot it looks to me typical of a wound inflicted from such close range that high-pressure gas blows the skull apart. Not saying it wasn't inflicted by a .50 bmg, but I'd like some documentation.

[BrokenPaw]

I do want to say that head shot pic looks very similar to the numerous VC I saw hit in cranium with 5.56 or 7.62. I think any rifle above 2600fps and at least 1000 fpe produces this result to human heads! Not to disparage the wonderful .50BMG round , just reality! But, Gordon, that pic was of a guy that had a .50 BMG round go past his head! It didn't even have to hit him! Don't you read the internet? :D

-BP

[gun-fucious]

i read a report last year that the afghani with the "50 bmg head wound" was actually gernaded


http://lists.travellerrpg.com/pipermail/tml-guntech/2003-May.txt

Historical Note: My father was in th ROK army during the
Korean War. He distinctly remembers many Chinese
infantrymen, who, upon being hit by .50 BMG rounds, were laid
out instantly if the round struck bone. If a limb hit on
bone, there was amputation. But... he also remembers some
who were hit with single rounds as the gun tracked around.
Some of these were only hit in the abdomen, and apparently no
bone was struck. Many of these fell down, but got back up,
and managed to live long enough to proceed forward and throw
a few stick grenades. One might think that .50 BMG is more
than enough gun. In more than a few cases, he said truck-
mounted quad-50 were used against human wave assaults. There
were always Chinese here and there who had to be shot
repeatedly to get them to stop.

Shoot the target. Shoot again. And again. Even if he falls
down, one or two more times if you've got the time.

interesting:
http://www.blarg.net/~minsq/NCArchive/00000210.htm
there is nothing in the Geneva Conventions, or the Additional Protocols, regulating the use of large-calibre machinegun ammunition, at least, not that I could discern. But to play it safe, I checked my copy of Dutch army manual VS 2-1351, Handboek voor het kader ("field manual for officers and NCOs"), 1991 edition. Chapter 16 covers the maintenance and operation of the mitrailleur Browning .50 inch M2 HB. Section 4.c has the goods (translated from the Dutch):

Types of targets
- Weapons emplacements.
- Lightly armoured and unarmoured vehicles.
- Directly attacking aircraft.
- Slow, low-flying aircraft.
- Paratroopers.
- Helicopters, troops on foot, both in cover and in the open.

[Nathanael_Greene]

My father commanded an M-16 quad-fifty halftrack in the Korean War; he told stories of using them quite effectively against human-wave attacks. Apparently they'd line up a few of them (other ordnance, too, of course) and just blast away until the attackers were no more. And he'd never talk about the effect on human flesh; I don't think it was a pretty sight.

[Art Eatman]

N_G, I did occupation duty in "Cold Rear" in 1954/1955 in the 50th AAA. Wound up as a squad leader on an M16 halftrack with a Quad .50. There were qute a few stories from guys nearing the end of their tours, who'd been on the line in combat...

Art

[Stevie-Ray]

But, Gordon, that pic was of a guy that had a .50 BMG round go past his head! It didn't even have to hit him! Don't you read the internet? It's a good thing it wasn't a .45 ACP. Why, it would have lifted him clean off his feet and splattered him against the nearest tree.:D

[M67]

Well, if they can shoot down satellites...

Kobun, about the legality of the .50 against human targets, I think that is with the multipurpose ammunition only, not with FMJ. No research on my part, I'm going from memory. But isn't there something in the Hague accord about using (or rather not using) exploding ordnance/shells with a caliber of less than 100mm against personnel? That would also make those detonating rifle caliber bullets that were made for aircraft machineguns illegal against personnel. For those countries that have signed the treaty...

Houndawg:That's weird, because 5.56mm converts to .219" and .224" converts to 5.69mm. I am guessing 5.56mm is the diameter of the bore while .224 is the bullet diameter, just two ways of measuring caliber. I think your military is doing it the European way by using bore diameter (5.56mm, .30 caliber etc) while civilians use bullet diameter. That will make the 5.56mm a .224 unless they need to separate different calibers by giving them different commercial names like .222, .223 etc. The military 7.62mm/.30 caliber becomes .308 to civilians. What's in a name anyway?