[Tomahawk674]

Hey guys, ever since I finished that Spiller & Burr I've been wanting to expand and try new projects.

I've gotten myself a nickel plating kit and want to try it out on a revolver. Well, there seems to be a large quantity of old cheap revolver from the post civil war period (smaller S&W top breaks in 32, 38, Iver Johnsons, and many more). But every time I mention doing that someone says I'll ruin the gun.

Yeah, I get it, if you find an original Colt Walker, don't reblue the thing. But these guns I'm looking at are worth $50 to $150 on the market. If I'm going to have one of those around, I want it to look good, and I want to use it.
Why would you not restore them?

Compare that mentality to classic car collectors. How many collectors will show you a 57 chevy that's rusted through and doesn't run? none! The world's most expensive car was a Ferrari 250 Testarossa that was FULLY RESTORED, and sold for 8 or 9 million euros; albeit it was restored by the factory.

I'm going to try to refinish one of these old antique revolvers, and I've already done some research about how much to polish, etc. Maybe some of you will like the result.

*end of rant*

[Das Jaeger]

that's very valid points anyway , even if you think it's ranting , which I didn't think . :)
Who do you live for , us or YOU anyway ? Hysterically correct folks crack me up sometimes , especailly when TELLING me what I should and shouldn't do to my guns without even asking them . :banghead:
I would much prefer to have nice lookin Old guns than a run down beat to heck Old gun . I gots no problem fixin um up to my likin , I aint never sellin any of um anyway :D
If'n I had a 1940's 50's or 60's Smith and Wesson that needed blueing , I wouldn't hesitate blueing it , or nickel plating it .
If guns are never to be sold off by the owner they are only worth what the owner thinks they are anyway . Sometimes restoring finish on a gun is to preserve the gun anyhow . More blueing , less rust potential is my point .
Character is nice on some guns , old ones esepecailly , but that shouldn't always preclude them from upgrades or mods if you so choose to use them , or even just want to look at or shoot prettier guns . You owne them , do what you please .

Das Jaeger

[BCRider]

With stuff that is common as rocks and goes for such a low price because of that I'd agree with just don't tell them and go ahead and do your thing.

A buddy restored an old motorcycle fender that needed chroming. On the recomendation of the plater he lightly ground out the pits and filled them with the new style non-lead plumbing solder. Being a little harder than the tin-lead stuff it was far easier to blend the shape without under cutting it. This may work with filling any pits you have on your project pistol as well. They also used a flash copper layer before laying on the nickel and then the flash of chrome to promote a better bond between the steel, solder and nickel. The copper also tended to show up any minor spots that were missed during the polishing process. Then each time back the plater stripped off the copper and flashed on a new layer which they studied again for any issues. I think all in all my buddy coppered and corrected about 3 times before he and the plater smiled at each other and nodded together. You may want to look at this as well. I believe the copper was a self layering chemical only process. The nickel was definetly an electro plate deal.

Good luck with your plating and of course we expect pics of the results.

[Tomahawk674]

Thank you for the tips, I have already ordered something called plum loy that is meant to me used as a pit filler but I haven't tried it yet. I definatly will share the project with you guys.

[madcratebuilder]

Let me know how the plum loy works. I have the electroless nickle plating kit and an old lemon squeezer Smith to try it on.

[Ratdog68]

Go for it... it's your gun. And... no, we don't JUST want "after" pix... we want "before, during, and after pix". :evil: Lookin' forward to this one !!

[Hawkeye748]

I look at it this way:

Certain guns that are really "collectibles" you leave as is and protect them.

An ordinary every day piece that is one of a million out there, if it is in need of restoration, go for it.

I know many folks with the N-SSA that shoot originals. I do myself. Most Collectors frown on this. Many actually are originals that have had new or re-lined barrels put on them for shooting. They re-oil the stocks, clean them up, etc. This is restoration and use of an old collectible.

But LEAVE the REAL COLLECTABLES ALONE.

:):) That being said, why not find a beat up re-enactor revolver for $75-100 and practice on that and leave the originals alone until you've perfected your technique.

[bigbadgun]

Toma
Let us know how it turns out I am very interested in getting a kit myself but want to know how they come out first.

[messerist]

Sounds like this could be the start of something "big" on THR Blackpowder Shooting Forum. Please post some photos if you get any of you project, and good luck!:)

[arcticap]

I've seen some older .22 rifles that needed to be reblued that would really benefit from a nickel finish. They're often available at a cheap price and a new finish could make one look like a unique higher priced stainless model. You wouldn't need to worry much about pitting either, usually just some exterior rust and maybe some stock refinishing
And .22's seem to always be in demand especially due to today's high ammo costs. Don't forget that .22 rimfire was originally a black powder round. :)

[jimmyraythomason]

If they belong to you,who cares what other people think about it? Even if it is a "real collectable". Don't let ANYONE who will never own or even see your guns(or anything else) tell you what you can or can't do with them. You will have to develop a tough skin though as many don't mind giving unsolicited opinions. Be warned though,if you ASK for opinions just be prepared.

[Old Fuff]

I have the electroless nickle plating kit and an old lemon squeezer Smith to try it on.

If that S&W Safety Hammerless was originally plated, go ahead and plate it again, after first stripping off all of the old plating. If it was blued be careful. They polished off more metal on parts that were intended to be plated. I have seen blued guns that were later nickeled, and some of the parts wouldn't move - and you couldn't get the barrel to tip down even though the latch wasn't assembled to it. :eek:

[Tomahawk674]

How did they fix that Old Fluff? did they have to remove the nickel plate?

[Old Fuff]

The usual procedure is to reverse the current in a plating bath so that the plating on the gun part is removed until the part is back to an all-steel condition. Then it was lightly or not polished at certain critical fit points. The surfaces that could be seen and weren't fitted to anything were polished as necessery to remove pits, dings, etc. After this was done the revolver was plated again. Remember they were using a process where a layer of copper and then nickel were applied. If you look at an older gun where the plating has pealed you may notice how thick the coating is.

S&W did offer a "change of finish" option where a blued gun could be plated. But they didn't simply take the parts and plate them. Few people know it, but the tolerances and dimensions on screw threads were slightly different between blued and plated screws.

Another gun you don't want to plate is a German Luger.

[Das Jaeger]

I had my 15-2 plated years ago , some parts left blued , some nickel . Hammer, trigger , cylinder catch button and barrel shroud were all in Nickel . I put a staineless cylinder in her at high pollish to match everything .
I sent the gun to the Dan Wessons boys to put together and time for me with the new cylinder . They filed and smoothed up the sear areas on hammer and trigger , AFTER it was plated .
Same can be done with the old guns on parts you don't see .

Das Jaeger

[pohill]

This question might need a thread of its own but I'll try...
Can you tell the age of a nickel plating job?

[Das Jaeger]

don't do a Luger !
If'n ya think a Dan Wesson is tight and rightly machined , the Luger is exceptionally machined even closer:what:

My buddy Mick Stevens bought one off a gunshop guy that sold it to him as an Officers Model , hee hee he , no such thing as a Nickel Luger Officers Model . :neener:
Needless to say it jammed every shot , ha ha ha , buyer beware :D

The older guns that were plated were plated much heavier and thicker as you mentioned . As long as you get the old plateing off the gun in question I think you'd be golden . A mild pollishing maybe to frame areas where they join on break open model could be advisable . But I sure would rather take it off after on a blued gun not before than risk a sloppy gun . It should be pretty obvious on whatever gun he plans on doing where metal may need to come off or not come off . Not many of those guns were built that well or tight anyways and certainly nothing liek todays guns are in tollerences .
Possibly retapping new holes and or better screws would be in order also . I have never had a problem putting a screw back in a plated hole though regardless , in any of my modern guns . :D

Das Jaeger

[Old Fuff]

The problem with polishing a nickeled gun is that you can't reach all of the internal surfaces, and those are the ones that can give you grief. Reverse plating will remove all of the coper/nickel/ and sometimes chrome, on the parts, and get you back to bare steel.

Screws generally don't give you a problem, but it's interesting that these older Smith & Wesson's were so closely toleranced that they had two standards.

Interestingly, one of our leading Luger authorities actually stated that older Smith & Wesson's were more closely fitted then Luger pistols.

If you are willing to go back to the late 1890's through the late 1930's you can find many places where the fitting done on revolvers was much better that that done today. Then they hand-fitted certain (but not all) parts to each individual gun. This is the reason you'll find the serial number and/or other numbers stamped on various parts to insure they got back on the right frame after being blued, plated or whatever. Today parts are simply assembled, and it is assumed that the tolerances are close enough to make the fit acceptable.

But then, it depends on how you define, "acceptable." :uhoh:

[Tomahawk674]

Well, I am the happy new owner of this:

http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=136277290

It still has a nice ammount of nickel finish left. I'm going to strip the old nickel, remove the pitting, and plate it again. I think it also needs a new mainspring, so I'll have to hunt that down.

[Ratdog68]

Congrats ! I've got an old F&W in .38 Colt. If it's anything like mine... all gunked up inside from not being torn down and cleaned. Mine was a little tricky to get back together (meaning it took a few tries to get the order of assembly right... but, I got it back together and works smoother than it did before.

Seems to be a pretty popular design by more than one maker in that era.

http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv134/Ratdog68/BlackPowder/1858/CartridgeType/FW38Colt/FW38Colt001.jpg

http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv134/Ratdog68/BlackPowder/1858/CartridgeType/FW38Colt/FW38Colt002.jpg

http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv134/Ratdog68/BlackPowder/1858/CartridgeType/FW38Colt/FW38Colt003.jpg

[Tomahawk674]

Beautiful gun you have there!

Yeah I'm also nervous because I've never dissassembled a double action...

[Ratdog68]

Thanks... it was given to me... it was a pair that was owned by an old family friend. I've had it for years, kinda apprehensive of shooting it.

Just pay close attention to the order of how it comes apart and just reverse it. No real "tricks" to it... just an order of assembly (on mine) to pay attention to.

Lookin' forward to seein' your re-do of yours !!

[Old Fuff]

I don't know where the term "Rookie" comes from. It's not a name Iver Johnson ever assigned to any of their revolvers. You will most likely find the serial number stamped on the bottom/side of the frame behind the stocks.

You will obviously need to fully disassemble the gun. To do so you will need a set of pin punches with cup points to fit the rounded heads of the pins. These punches can be purchased from Brownells (www.brownells.com) and are listed under Smith & Wesson tools.

You will also find out that they can be a ##&!! to get put back together (which is the reason many gunsmiths won't touch them) but since you aren't paying for the work I don't see where you will suffer any serious losses. Be sure to not get the pins mixed up as to which goes where.

A mainspring should be obtainable at (www.e-gunparts.com) Be sure to specify that you need a flat, not coil mainspring for a large frame.38 Iver Johnson. The only reason it's a large frame is because they didn't make a bigger one... ;)

[Old Fuff]

Ratdog68:

All of these various top-break pocket revolvers were inexpensive copies of a very popular Smith & Wesson design, and came about after the S&W patents ran out. Because they were a copy of Smith & Wesson's products, those made in .38 caliber were chambered to use the .38 S&W or .38 Colt New Police cartridges - not the .38 Short Colt, which would probably work but be undersized for the chambers. You need to get your F&W checked out to see what it is really chambered for.

Also it is unquestionably intended to be used with black powder.

To Add: Now I see the cartridges you have are .38 Colt New Police (New Police is in small print) and not .38 Short Colt. Be aware that Remington dropped the .38 Colt New Police during the 1950's because the demand was small, and they were identical to the .38 S&W. That's some very old stuff you have there.

[Das Jaeger]

I am refering to hand tuned guns, not stadnard production stuff as far as tollerences go . But your right too , some , not many of the older nicer guns were built real well too . :D
My custom Springfield Longslide doesn't get any tighter as far as tollerneces go . :D

Das Jaeger

Congrats on your new gun Tomahawk674 , awsome ! Let the games begin, should be one fun project for ya , and for us to watch you , bonus !

Nice gun Ratface68 , very cool, shoot it , shoot the hell out of it, what are you waitin for ? Do you doubt your good work ? Or just not to put wear on her ?

[madcratebuilder]

I'm using a electroless nickle kit from Crasswell. It deposits .001 of nickle per hour and you typically need a finish .001 thick for good results. Electroplating adds several thousandth to the surface and can be a problem on close fitting parts.


Ratdog, nice looking IJ, too nice to refinish I think, love those grips.

[Old Fuff]

It depends:

If the old nickel plate has been removed you may actually end up with some play between parts you don't want. If the new plating is on top of the old there is a possibility that somewhere it may be too tight. Wear may make everything equal, but I've learned to not depend on that. :banghead:

[Ratdog68]

Ratdog68:

All of these various top-break pocket revolvers were inexpensive copies of a very popular Smith & Wesson design, and came about after the S&W patents ran out. Because they were a copy of Smith & Wesson's products, those made in .38 caliber were chambered to use the .38 S&W or .38 Colt New Police cartridges - not the .38 Short Colt, which would probably work but be undersized for the chambers. You need to get your F&W checked out to see what it is really chambered for.

Also it is unquestionably intended to be used with black powder.

To Add: Now I see the cartridges you have are .38 Colt New Police (New Police is in small print) and not .38 Short Colt. Be aware that Remington dropped the .38 Colt New Police during the 1950's because the demand was small, and they were identical to the .38 S&W. That's some very old stuff you have there.
The shells in the pic came with the gun... I'm certain of them being black powder charged old timers. I have nearly a full box of 'em.

Yes, I am aware of the fact that this is a "copy" of the S&W (by F&W). I did a little snoopin' 'round to find the history of this maker. Inktristink tale I stumbled across somewhere... think I've already posted the link for it elsewhere.

[Ratdog68]

I am refering to hand tuned guns, not stadnard production stuff as far as tollerences go . But your right too , some , not many of the older nicer guns were built real well too . :D
My custom Springfield Longslide doesn't get any tighter as far as tollerneces go . :D

Das Jaeger

Congrats on your new gun Tomahawk674 , awsome ! Let the games begin, should be one fun project for ya , and for us to watch you , bonus !

Nice gun Ratface68 , very cool, shoot it , shoot the hell out of it, what are you waitin for ? Do you doubt your good work ? Or just not to put wear on her ?
I wanna have someone who's got a little more know's its than me to eyeball it before it gets shot... just haven't done so yet. If it's safe to shoot, then I'm ok with shooting the rounds I have for it and reloading them with black powder once again.

[Ratdog68]

I'm using a electroless nickle kit from Crasswell. It deposits .001 of nickle per hour and you typically need a finish .001 thick for good results. Electroplating adds several thousandth to the surface and can be a problem on close fitting parts.


Ratdog, nice looking IJ, too nice to refinish I think, love those grips.
Mine's actually an F&W, not an IJ. I don't have any plans to refinish mine... just interested in the thread to do so on these old type of double actions puppies.

[theotherwaldo]

The only tricky part to putting that old I-J back together (besides NOT peening the pins) is using a short slave pin to hold the sear in place until the pin is driven in. I usually use a piece of drafting pencil lead for this. Just use the right diameter lead, and rub the end on sandpaper until it's the right length.

The rest of the assembly is plain vanilla.

[Tomahawk674]

Are the pins so weak that if I use anything but a cup tip punch the pins will bend? there are plenty of gunsmith brass punches on ebay but they seem to be flat heads, are those not good?

The Smith and Wesson ones on Brownshells are quite expensive.

[theotherwaldo]

The pins aren't weak but they are a little soft compared to modern steel. The punches also tend to wander off of the pin and scar up the gun if they aren't cupped. If you flatten the ends of the pins by smacking them hard with a flat-ended tool it just makes it harder to take apart and put together.

I have made my own cup-tip punches by putting a small burr in my cheap Chinese drill press and using it on the end of a bit of rod stock. No big deal.

[kwetu]

The following extract will enable you to tell whether it's an IJ 2nd model - Black Powder ONLY, or an IJ 3rd model which was made for Smokeless Powder. The word 'Safety' refers to the fact that the IJ revolvers had a safety transfer bar (Ruger copied them), and the 'Automatic' refers to the automated extraction system.

"In the standard Safety Automatic revolvers with the traditional exposed hammer, the First Model was made from 1894 through 1895 and is identified by it’s single post latch system. The Second Model was made from 1896 to 1908, and the Third Model was made from 1909 to 1941. Both Second and Third Models have the double post latch system. Quick visual clues that identify a Third Model include a longer rear sight on top of the latch and the owl head on the grips is looking directly at you , rather than towards the muzzle end of the barrel as was the case on the Second Model. The Third Model changes were intended to accommodate the higher pressure of smokeless powder loads."
kwetu

[Old Fuff]

Ratdog68:

The shells in the pic came with the gun... I'm certain of them being black powder charged old timers. I have nearly a full box of 'em.

I think you'll find they are loaded with smokeless. The box itself dates from the 1930's through the 1950' or early 60's. Look on the bottom of the box and it should say, including a warning about using them in older guns.

[Ratdog68]

Ratdog68:



I think you'll find they are loaded with smokeless. The box itself dates from the 1930's through the 1950' or early 60's. Look on the bottom of the box and it should say, including a warning about using them in older guns.
I'll give it an eyeball again. If they are smokeless... I've got a bullet puller and can reload 'em with some black powder... hmmmm... would I be able to use my .38 spl. dies for loading these up? I'd be sure to take some overall measurements before pulling the bullets. Prob'ly 10-15grs of black powder would be about right for these little puppies?

http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv134/Ratdog68/BlackPowder/1858/CartridgeType/FW38Colt/FW38Colt005.jpg

http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv134/Ratdog68/BlackPowder/1858/CartridgeType/FW38Colt/FW38Colt006.jpg

[Old Fuff]

Kleenbore primers = non-corrosive compound and therefore smokeless powder loads.

.38 Special dies won't work - or at least they shouldn't. You can get .38 S&W dies, or a Lee hand tool would be an low cost option too.

As with a cap & ball revolver, you don't want to leave an air space between the powder charge and bullet's base. Modern solid head cases have less space for powder, but I'm not sure if what you have are solid head cases. Correct bullet weight is 146 grains, and the correct diameter is .360" The case is so short I don't think you can use too much black powder.

[Ratdog68]

Kleenbore primers = non-corrosive compound and therefore smokeless powder loads.

.38 Special dies won't work - or at least they shouldn't. You can get .38 S&W dies, or a Lee hand tool would be an low cost option too.

As with a cap & ball revolver, you don't want to leave an air space between the powder charge and bullet's base. Modern solid head cases have less space for powder, but I'm not sure if what you have are solid head cases. Correct bullet weight is 146 grains, and the correct diameter is .360" The case is so short I don't think you can use too much black powder.
Thanks for that Old Fuff... I'll look into some .38 S&W dies. I've got a number of Lee loading dies already for a number of my calibers. 10-4 on the "no air 'tween powder/bullet base.

[BHP FAN]

I load my .38 S&W'S with 16 gr 3f goex.

[Ratdog68]

I load my .38 S&W'S with 16 gr 3f goex.
Smoochies Grassy-Ass Ameeeego !

[Old Fuff]

I hate to tell you this because it might upset your mental stability... :uhoh:

But there was a time when Remington loaded what they called a "Gallery Load" in several popular cartridges. In .38 S&W it consisted of a mild charge of 3f black, a lubricated felt wad, and a .360" round ball...

Loading dies aren't necessary if you lightly pinch the case at the mouth. I have seen an ordinary pair of pliers modified to do this.

I sure hope all of this doesn't give you any bad ideas... :evil:

[Ratdog68]

LOL That's kewl to know... but, I'm in no hurry to shoot this one and would be more than willing to just buy the dies for the .38 S&W.

[Tomahawk674]

Hey guys, I got the Iver in the mail today. It looks really nice, virtually no pitting or rust, mechanically sound (missing the mainspring) and overall very nice condition.

I have a question, how do I take the ejector out of the cylinder?

[Old Fuff]

1. Put two or three fired cases in the chambers. You can use loaded rounds, but fired cases are safer.

2. Wrap a piece of leather or cardboard around the ejector rod (called a "stem"), and clamp it in a vise. Be careful to not bend or scar the rod.

3. While standing behind the cylinder, turn it counter-clockwise; and the rod will unscrew.

4. Remove the extractor spring and then back out the extractor.


DON'T USE FORCE! If it doesn't want to turn, soak the whole cylinder in an anti-rust solvent for a few days and then try again.

[Tomahawk674]

Thanks for the info Fluff;

I was able to take down the gun to it's last pin. I am amazed at how well it has stayed. Nothing was rust-locked, or heavily pitted. I was able to take the rust off al the parts, then I oiled it and put it somewhat back together before I decide how the plating is going to go down.

Question: In this model and plenty other iver johnson oldies the trigger guard looks darker than the rest of the frame. It doesn't quite look like it was blued, so what is it? I need to know what's done differently there as to not alter the appearance when renickeling.

---- edit---

Looking at more pics, it DOES seem like they blued their trigger guards, can anyone confirm?

[kwetu]

They were blued by the factory but seem to develop a brown patina. Looking at my IJ one can just see the remains of bluing.

[bigbadgun]

I just got my hands on and old Iver Johnson 16 gauge single shot shotgun that Im going to do a complete restore to. And the only reason I am going to restore it is because even in really good shape they are not worth a bunch so I am gonna turn it in to a nice piece.

[Old Fuff]

Smith & Wesson's standard finish on top-break/pocket model revolvers was either full blue. or nickel plate with a blued trigger guard and barrel latch. Hammers and triggers were color casehardened. Stocks were usually molded black hard rubber.

The companies that made copies (H&R, Iver Johnson, Forehand & Wadsworth, etc) did the same. Nickeled trigger guards and lockwork are a strong indicator of a later refinish.

Before you refinish a trigger guard, consider they were blued with a "charcoal blue" process that you can't duplicate.

[Tomahawk674]

Thank you guys again for the information.

Well, the trigger guard and top latch are brown, all the bluing is gone. I don't think I'll nickel them but I may try cold bluing, even if it's not authentic.

So far there's two springs I need, the mainspring (flat kind) and the firing pin spring. Both are listed at e-gun parts but both are out of stock. And the guy from Bob's gun parts seems to have plenty of IJ parts but he is away from the shop till about Sep 12th.

Let me know if you guys know of any alternative parts source, googleing yields no results.

[Tomahawk674]

Oh and... I would appreciate any tips on removing the firing pin nut (the little housing the pin is in) and the cylinder arbor (if it's not too difficult, as I'm having doubts if I should plate with the arber attached to the barrel or not).

[Old Fuff]

Removing the firing pin bushing takes what is called a spanner wrench. You can make your own substitute.

Note that there are two little holes opposite of each other in the bushing. Measure the distance between the holes from the outside to outside.

Buy a flat-bladed screwdriver with the same width.

Use a file to cut a square notch in the blade, leaving a projection on each side that will fit into the above mentioned holes.

Then use your modified screwdriver to unscrew the bushing. You must first remove the barrel from the frame before doing this. Don't turn too hard or you will bend or break the little projections.

Don't try to remove the cylinder arbor. Instead wrap it with masking tape before you plate it. Also do not plate the barrel latch.

[Tomahawk674]

Thanks! well here's whats going on so far:

I have tried using some nails and a wrench to twist out the firing pin nut to no avail. It seems to be fused there pretty well and I'm wondering if it's because of the nickel plating, so I'll try again after stripping the nickel and soaking it in oil. The local gunsmith says he'll build the screwdriver tool and get the piece out for $20...

Thanks for the tip about the arbor, I'll let it be. Oh and I won't plate the latch; that along with the trigger guard I'll try to cold blue.

I have pics! one pin is not fully reinsterted, using a nail for the other one:

[Tomahawk674]

I now have a new mainspring and firing pin return spring from Jack First parts. I have also reblued the latch and the trigger guard with birchwood blue paste, and I'm happy with the results. Only problem is I can't get the firing pin nut off with the tools that I have tried, so I'm going to a gunsmith.

I also have acquired a very rough shape Smith & Wesson 38S&W 2nd model top break single action with a spur trigger, that I want to restore. Now this one is in really crappy condition, and almost all the screws were frozen. I have been able to take them all out exept the latch screw; I've tried heating, oil, rust remover, etc. I don't quite know how I'm getting that sucker out.

More updates later...

[Tomahawk674]

The gun has been renickeled (not by me) and will be here on Friday!
I have found custom reloading service and will have them make me some 38S&W with 777 powder. Looking forward to it.