Lethal ammo that won't penetrate airplane skin?


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Ukraine Train
October 26, 2003, 10:09 PM
Just wondering if something like this exists. Maybe a lead bullet with a rubber tip or something?

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Hypnogator
October 26, 2003, 10:38 PM
Once upon a time, when the original air marshals were first assigned, they developed a .38 or .44 Special round that fired a metal "beanbag" filled with, IIRC, lead powder. The projectile would spin and flatten, flying like a pancake, flat side forward. Wasn't accurate past a few yards, but it wouldn't penetrate a hard surface, such as airliner skin, but would penetrate about halfway through a human body.

Haven't heard about those rounds for years.

ChickenHawk
October 26, 2003, 10:56 PM
How about the MagSafe fragmenting stuff?

ChickenHawk

JohnKSa
October 26, 2003, 11:05 PM
When the idea of arming pilots after 9/11 was being batted around, numerous people with backgrounds in aircraft maintenance/design, etc. responded that even a goodly number of bullet holes in the skin of an airliner would have virtually zero effect on safety.

Jim Watson
October 26, 2003, 11:12 PM
Doesn't matter.
Any pressurized aircraft leaks like a sieve anyhow; plus what is vented for air conditioning. The engine compressor bleed to cabin pressurization and air conditioning has a lot of reserve capacity. A few bullet holes will make no difference. Do a search, this has been discussed at great length before, sometimes by pilots and A.E.s.

In the present climate, I figure the guard should have a gun/ammo powerful enough to shoot through a stewardess to get the terr.
Cold?
Consider the alternative; they scramble an ANG F-16 (flown by an airline pilot doing his active duty stint) and it puts a Sidewinder up the liner's tailpipe.

Stealthfixr
October 26, 2003, 11:19 PM
As a USAF aircraft maintainer, you'd be amazed how 'leaky' your typical pressurized aircraft can be, and still hold 'pressure altitude' at cruising altitude. The whole 'being sucked out through the tiny hole' thing is just a myth at those relative pressures. I might not want a window shot out, but small holes will not change things as significantly as Hollywood would have you believe (other than the noise level--might get a tad loud). I hope the air marshalls carry the good HP stuff, and practice often.

C.R.Sam
October 27, 2003, 01:28 AM
Jim Watson nailed it.
Air available for pressurization far exceeds demand.

And, if somebody did knock a whole window out; it would be an inconvience and not a disaster.

Sam....ATP

BluesBear
October 27, 2003, 01:31 AM
AIUI Skymarshalls used to carry Glaser Safety Slugs. I know I got my first ones from a SM (at a really GOOD price). I think Glasers would be a good choice unless the hijackers are wearing body armor.

There is a new company (http://www.extremeshockusa.com/cgistore/store.cgi?page=/new/product.html&setup=1&ida=8&idp=0&his=0&cart_id=2258911.1176) advertising what they refer to as the perfect round for the job. I don't know about the validity of their claims but their ads make me laugh out loud.
:neener:

I'm gonna buy some in .45 just for testing purposes but I think it's all smoke and mirrors. :scrutiny:

sm
October 27, 2003, 02:30 AM
Agree with Jim Watson.
Everything I've asked of pilots, read and learned here,agrees too. Jim's comment is a reality. I also prefer using enough gun, firearm use is to stop immediate threat. Go for the BG, not the airframe...shot placement.
Reality is I'd rather have someone shoot through me to stop that threat, and save many, vs lose all.
If one draws a first breath, one will draw a final one. This is an absolute. Reality and acceptance... about all one can do about it.

Moparmike
October 27, 2003, 03:02 AM
I'm gonna buy some in .45 just for testing purposes but I think it's all smoke and mirrors. :scrutiny:At $3 a round?:what:

unless the hijackers are wearing body armor.Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement. Remember to aim for the eyes.:D Its for the children you know....:evil: :neener:

c_yeager
October 27, 2003, 03:10 AM
I always thought taht the airmarshals used low penetrating rounds because of the confined quarters of the aircraft and the risk that even a COM shot on a bad guy would work its way down the aisle into the citizens behind the badguy. Punching small holes in the aircraft is really no big deal. But killing people with overpenetrating rounds is.

Brian Dale
October 27, 2003, 07:27 AM
c_yeager, "consider the alternative," in Jim Watson's post above.

jar
October 27, 2003, 07:59 AM
I just don't want to be one or two rows infront of the Marshall when he cooks off a couple 40S&Ws or 357SiGs. Imagine for a second what the sound will be in that small enclosed area. :D

TheFederalistWeasel
October 27, 2003, 08:56 AM
Current crop of Air Marshals carry 124 grain Gold Dot, .357SIG, they are taught, if able, to close distance and shoot center mass. They are also taught to shoot from sitting positions and not just from isle seats either.

Before an airliner can pass FAA certification it must demonstrate the complete loss of four consecutive windows and be able to maintain a cabin atmosphere while initiating an emergency decent from cruise altitude, also it must demonstrate the loss of one windscreen pane as well. The Boeing 747 was able to loose a complete door and still decent to 10,000 feet safely.

The total loss of a cabin would only come about from catastrophic failure of the pressure vessel such as what happened on that Aloha Airlines 737 a while back, but even then only one person died and she was a cabin attendant who was lost overboard.

A United Airlines 747 also lost a complete cargo door climbing out of Hawaii one night many years back, but several people were lost when the door ripped from its hinges and took a section of seats with it, I think about 10 people? Plane landed safely no one else lost.

Hollywood has twisted the truth and obscured the facts in the name of ticket sales.

SDC
October 27, 2003, 10:24 AM
Here's a hot of a couple of the rounds that have been tried in this application; left, a .38 Special "Short-Stop" sky marshall round, that fires a shot-filled "bean bag" (unfolded projectile below), and a .45 Auto Glaser Safety Slug. As other posters have pointed out, airplanes are "leaky" to begin with, so even a .45 calibre hole isn't going to cause the plane to come apart in mid-air (like that Hawaiian/Oahu (?) air flight several years ago). If they WERE air-tight, you wouldn't feel the pressure change in your ears when you take-off and land.

sch40
October 27, 2003, 10:40 AM
FedWeasel,
I never knew airliners were so safe when it comes to depressurization/hull integrity. I knew that you are more likely to die on the way to the airport than actually in the plane, but this will make better arguments to my (flight-fearful) girlfriend.

Lennyjoe
October 27, 2003, 05:36 PM
Not so much worried about holes in the skin.

Its the damage a bullet might do to a fuel cell, hydraulic lines or wire bundles that worries me.

Loose hydraulics and your in a world of hurt.

Shred a bundle of wires and who knows what you disabled.

Loose fuel over the ocean and aircraft quickly becomes a glider for a short time. :what:

Alot of variables when it comes to aircraft. But I would take my chances if it came down to it. Let the bullets fly to kill the badguy.

444
October 27, 2003, 05:44 PM
http://www.pmcgreen.com/ ????

We used this ammo at Gunsite Advanced Carbine so we wouldn't damage the simulators or the steel targets.

Serpico
October 27, 2003, 07:31 PM
Just get them to eat the airline food...that should take them down quick...

C.R.Sam
October 27, 2003, 10:05 PM
Lennyjoe ...
Airliners are built with double and sometimes triple redundancy of critical items. Hydraulics, electrical, attitude instruments etc.

Very difficult to disable one with smallarms fire.

And considering that fuel requirement is enough to destination plus to alternate plus 45 minutes....even a hole in a fuel cell isn't going to cause enough fuel loss to be of concern unless the weather at both destination and alternate is really stinky. Those engines gobble fuel much faster than a few .45 holes would leak.

Sam....ATP

Jeff OTMG
October 27, 2003, 10:15 PM
Joe Zambone did a MagSafe that was nothing more than a copper jacket filled with epoxy driven to high velocity.

RBCD developed one under contract. Here is a link to the article at Armed Forces Journal International:
http://www.afji.com/AFJI/Mags/2001/August/MeteorRound.htm

"Imagine a small-arms bullet powerful enough to punch through armor plate and "bulletproof" glass at typical pistol- and rifle-shot distances, yet smart enough to release its energy the instant it encounters soft tissue. Yes, a bullet that makes light work of armor plate but won't exit a human body.

Now imagine a variant of the same bullet: this one will deliver a devastating strike against an adversary standing 25 feet away, yet it would generally be non-lethal to an innocent bystander 50 feet from the weapon's muzzle."

BluesBear
October 27, 2003, 11:23 PM
Moparmike,
At $3 a round?
I already have 100 rounds of .45ACP Glaser in reserve.
Have you priced that stuff lately?

22luvr
October 28, 2003, 01:31 PM
About the only way to get an explosive decompression is to have a major failure of a service or cargo door, much like happened to a United 747 enroute to Hawaii which sucked a couple of passengers out but landed safely. That is morbid but a pressurized cabin could have many holes shot through it with minimal effect. The sky marshalls normally tote SIGs loaded with .357 Sig Speer gold-dot hollow points.....something you can purchase at your own gun shop. I believe RBCD is a round that would disintegrate against hard objects but does major damage to soft tissue.

Archer
October 28, 2003, 03:11 PM
I wonder how many of us saw Goldfinger as kids and filed the climactic scene away as fact ?:D

ChickenHawk
October 28, 2003, 08:27 PM
I wonder how many of us saw Goldfinger as kids and filed the climactic scene away as fact

Which has been repeated in many other movies including the last of (at least we hope it's the last) the Alien movies with Sigourny Weaver.

ChickenHawk :p

Waitone
October 29, 2003, 01:00 PM
Airlines drag their feed on armed pilots, etc. because of the high probability of liability suits should something untoward happen. I doubt seriously pressure hull failure is a major concern.

Modern aircraft have back up systems out the ying-yang; electrical, pneumatic, hydraulic, mechanical, and transparent aluminum. My brudder in law years ago flew C-9's (mil version of a DC-9) for the air farce. One time on vacation I got to thumb through the pilots manuals. I was surprised to see the backup systems that backed up back up systems. The one I remember is the nose gear had 9 separate means from lowering the landing gear. . . .the last system was a hand crank at the base of pilot's seat.

I have heard that sintered rounds like Glaser Safety Slugs (IIRC) will not penetrate a pressure hull but will do a number on the human body.

BluesBear
October 29, 2003, 04:17 PM
I wonder if Sigourny Weaver can make a good meatloaf? :evil:

Moparmike
October 29, 2003, 06:21 PM
transparent aluminumUmm, waitone, have you been watching too much Star Trek 4? It doesnt exist yet.

Edited: I stand corrected: Google Search for Transparent Aluminum (http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=Transparent+Aluminum). Its still not in aircraft yet though, as it was just invented this year.

Has Scotty truely come back in time?:eek: :confused: :uhoh: :scrutiny:


:D

Rogelio
November 1, 2003, 03:30 PM
Log to:

http://www.a-merc.com/

there you will find a link "SEE VIDEO" to a video showing thier new bullets...they shoot at actual airplanes and the bullet does not even penetrate a window!!

Ok, I know that that maker does not have abgreat rep over there, but it is worth a look

Treylis
December 28, 2003, 04:02 PM
ChickenHawk:

I don't remember precisely, but wasn't that sucked-out-through window scene in space?

I imagine the pressure differential would be slightly higher in that case than an airliner cruising at a few tens of thousands of feet. ;-)

Zundfolge
December 28, 2003, 04:13 PM
Most pressurized cabins have a valve (usualy at the back of the airplaine) that opens and closes to equialize pressure. Plus, a rapid loss of pressure isn't going to bring the plane down or rip it apart.

My father in law was an engeneering supervisor with Boeing from the '60s to the late '80s. He always said it would take more then a handgun or even SMG to bring down one of those planes ... just look at the DHL cargo plane that was shot by a rocket and still landed fine.

You're not going to shoot down a jumbo jet with a handgun unless you use it to kill everyone on the plane, then jam the pistol in the controls to keep the plane headed toward the ground. :p


I'm thinking JHPs would be the best thing to use in an airplane because the point is to end the fight as fast as possible.

KonradBaumgarten
January 6, 2010, 04:29 PM
Thinking of the foiled attack on the Detroit plane last month and especially hearing everyone speaking about new invasive security measures on the ground, how come nobody ever mentions the possibility of rearming the helpless pessengers in the plane? Has everybody suddenly turned European? :D

Does anybody know a good article or any other internet source about the risks of firing a gun in a flying aircraft?

rcmodel
January 6, 2010, 04:40 PM
You're not going to shoot down a jumbo jet with a handgun+1
Remember the Olaha airlines 737 that landed safely with a large section of roof missing?
Now, that right there is decompression!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aloha_Airlines_Flight_243

rc

1911austin
January 6, 2010, 05:35 PM
AIUI Skymarshalls used to carry Glaser Safety Slugs. I know I got my first ones from a SM (at a really GOOD price). I think Glasers would be a good choice unless the hijackers are wearing body armor.

There is a new company advertising what they refer to as the perfect round for the job. I don't know about the validity of their claims but their ads make me laugh out loud.


I'm gonna buy some in .45 just for testing purposes but I think it's all smoke and mirrors.

http://www.extremeshockusa.com/gfx_splash/top_2.jpg

They are not new. They have been making folks laugh out loud for years.

jad0110
January 6, 2010, 05:56 PM
Mythbusters did this one a few years ago.

The myth that a bullet can cause explosive decompression in an airplane: busted.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fi1_1l7M8FA

KonradBaumgarten
January 6, 2010, 06:16 PM
Awesome, thanks jad0110.

WC145
January 6, 2010, 07:29 PM
When I went through the LEO "flying armed" class, the two things they emphasized were don't shoot at the floor or the cockpit door. Other than that anything goes, ammo and caliber don't matter, just make sure no one makes it onto the cockpit.

orionengnr
January 6, 2010, 08:10 PM
You are replying to a six year old post, guys... :rolleyes:

jad0110
January 6, 2010, 08:44 PM
oops :o

KonradBaumgarten
January 7, 2010, 02:29 AM
Well that doesn't necessarily mean that the subject lacks any actual interest... :neener:

WC145
January 7, 2010, 03:09 AM
You are replying to a six year old post, guys...

Not me, I was replying to the guys that posted yesterday. They were replying to a six year old thread.;)

Bliggida
January 7, 2010, 03:54 AM
A bullet through the skin worst-case-scenario is that a window-seat passenger is going to have a loud annoying flight until they plug it with a thumb or puke-bag. :D

As far as Air Marshals. I trained with, in, and around them in Artesia. (regarding academy recruits) Although fun on friday night, they left a lot to be desired in their selection, training, and P.T. They were all nice folks indeed. But boy, their shot placement and gun handling were atrocious.

I thought about joining their ranks off and on for a few years, until I worked directly with a former Air Marshal. He said it was fun at first because all you do is ride around on planes. But later hated it because all you do is ride... around... on... planes.
Bypassing airport security was pretty cool.

It'd be rough for me though, I don't like being wasteful. I hate passing up an opportunity to legally travel intoxicated. Much more enjoyable.

Guns and more
January 7, 2010, 01:42 PM
+1 on the Mythbusters.
People hear the old wives tale that a person will be sucked through a tiny hole, or the plane will explode.
The actual difference in pressure at 30,000 ft. is 8#/sq/in.

I did read an interesting study on the Aloha plane where the roof came off. A man who studies exploding air compressors coined the term "Fluid hammer". A large opening in the roof of the 727 appeared, unfortunately, pulling the flight attendant into it. When she plugged the hole, the shock wave of sudden air pressure change caused the rest of the roof to fly off.

If you enjoyed reading about "Lethal ammo that won't penetrate airplane skin?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!