How feasible is this?


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NavyGuy
August 12, 2009, 10:29 AM
I posted this in Rifle Country, but I think this is a more suitable forum.

First off, I don't know jack. This is why I'm asking you guys. I basically want a SW500 rifle, and don't want to spend $1500 to get one, or have a single shot. There's not a lot out there for this round in a rifle, but it is darn close to 300WSM specs. If I could get a shot out rifle that needs re-barreled, and get it chambered for SW500, could I have a SW500 bolt action? I think the bolt face and action length would work, but don't know much about the ejection. Tell me what you guys think. Here's some scans from my hornady manual.

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rbernie
August 12, 2009, 11:49 AM
Actually, I'd just contact one of the custom barrel makers and see if they think that this project is do-able... I would imagine that the current Savage action (the newer ring size, brought out specifically to support the WSM/SAUMs) should do this just fine. What you need to find is a barrel maker with a barrel blank of the correct bore and with a chambering reamer for 500SW.


----


ETA - I just checked, and Shilen does not list a 500SW chambering option. Neither does Douglas or Hart. Lilja and McGowen might be able to help - they list barrel blanks of the potentially correct bore diameter.

rcmodel
August 12, 2009, 11:53 AM
It "could" be done I suppose.

But the cost of a conversion would rather quickly get expensive.

The case rim on a .500 S&W is .025" large then a belted Magnum bolt face.
So, bolt and extractor mods would be necessary.

The larger diameter .500 might not feed without magazine box & feed rail mods too. The .300 WSM is about 3/4" longer loaded length, so the magazine would have to be shortened or blocked.
SO a lot of expensive gunsmith tinkering might be required to get it to feed reliably.

It might be cheaper & more satisfactory to just buy an Thompson/Center Encore rifle in .500 S&W.

http://www.tcarms.com/firearms/encoreRifleCharts.php

rc

NavyGuy
August 13, 2009, 08:25 AM
rcmodel,
Still asking questions here, not debating. What I don't understand is how cartridge length affects reliable feeding. Wouldn't it just be like using a long action to feed a short cartridge? I've read of this quite often. When that is done, are there magazine modifications there too? Also, why would the bolt need modifications? I understand the ejector work that needs to be done because of the obvious cartridge differences around the rim, but how does the bolt play into that? Ifigured since the two rounds were so close dimensionally the only work that would need to be done is a barrel and the ejectors. Like I said at the beginning of the thread, "I don't know jack".

I guess where all of this stems from is seeing people rechambering mausers for every cartridge under the sun for about the same price as buying a new rifle. I figured this would be about as expensive as buying a new rifle, $500-$600, except you can't buy THIS rifle.

rbernie
August 13, 2009, 08:33 AM
I don't understand is how cartridge length affects reliable feeding. Wouldn't it just be like using a long action to feed a short cartridge?
The magazine cannot be significantly longer than the OAL of the round, or the rounds will move round too much in the magazine. This is why LA mags are blocked when chambered for a shorter round. Blocking the magazine is done for many reasons, but certainly rounds that are not picked up by the bolt face at approximately the same place in the feed cycle will likely not feed reliably..

The second question raised by rcmodel is whether the larger rim of the 500S&W would fit into the magazine itself and feed properly. The feed lips and/or bolt raceways may be too narrow to allow the rim to pop up at the appropriate time. It's not likely a huge issue, but it needs to be checked and corrected if it's not right.

I would be concerned about rim lock.

Navy_Guns
August 13, 2009, 09:32 AM
http://www.shootingtimes.com/longgun_reviews/ST_hr500sandwmag/

Don't know if you want a single-shot, but you can get an NEF Handi Rifle in .500 S&W magnum for under $300...

(EDIT: Oh dang, I re-read your post and you already said you aren't a single-shot fan. Sorry, I love 'em!)

I just got a Shilen barrel blank and a .454 Casull custom reamer (not for revolver cylinders) and am in the process of making a M44 Mosin Nagant carbine into a M454. I have already tested the action with dummy rounds and the magazine push-feeds the .454 cartridge just fine. Since the magazine was designed for rimmed cartridges, it prevents rim lock. I won't know how much tweaking it'll require until I cut the barrel and install it, but all signs look good for this being my one-of hog rifle.

It's not .50" but the deer won't know the difference. I want to use the CH4D cannelure-forming tool to load Hornady 300gr SST or Barnes Spit Fire TMZ bullets.

NavyGuy
August 13, 2009, 11:55 AM
Navy Guns,
Sounds like a cool project. Can the Mosin handle pressures like that?

I guess the main attraction to this whole idea of mine is that this is the biggest caliber that can be fired from a rifle under Indiana hunting rules. See here: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=468191

Everybody wants this caliber in a rifle, and there are only two rifles available. Wild West Guns makes a lever action for $1500 and then there's NEF and Encore single shots. There is no in-between. That's why I'm kinda fanatical about it, no one else has it and if I could get it made for the same price as a mauser conversion then why not. Seems like the expensive part would be the barrel though, it would have to be custom made. It'd be a cool rifle to have no matter what you're using it for though.

I'm just throwing this out there, and this might be the point where the thread goes ridiculous, but, what about cutting down a 300 wsm case to 1.625 and using a .500 bullet? The case rim would match the bolt face and extraction shouldn't be a problem, I'd still have to get a custom barrel though. Would this be a wildcat round as far as reloading goes? The cases are so very close to one another. I'd have to use a 300 wsm shell holder and a S&W 500 dye. The case dia for the 500 is .530 and the 300 wsm is .555. Is this a huge difference as far as reloading is concerned, doesn't seem like much more than a crimp.

Navy_Guns
August 13, 2009, 12:23 PM
Ahh, isn't it beautiful? It's not about what we NEED, it's about what we WANT and God help the SOB who tries to take that from us. I always get sick of people trying to tell us we don't need EBR's, high capacity, pistol grips, bayonets, whatever. If the highest posted speed limit in the country is 80 mph (west Texas), why do you NEED a car that will do 160? Because you WANT one. In this day and age when 2 drinks a day is good for you but 3 a day means you have a drinking problem and you can't get a super-sized fries at McDonalds, I applaud your sensibility and wish you the best of luck with your quest for a .500 S&W Magnum! :)

NavyGuy
August 13, 2009, 12:46 PM
Well thank you very much Navy Guns, I think it's very American of me! Where would we be without enterprising individuals?

But...if this mental project doesn't stop keeping me awake at night I might just find the nearest caliber of whatever and suck-start it.:what:

NavyGuy
August 13, 2009, 09:38 PM
So...I keep thinking about this, and it won't leave me alone. My only hang-up is if a .500 caliber bullet will crimp to a .555 (outside diameter) neck.

If I use a 300wsm rifle, take a 300wsm case, cut it down to 1.625, and seat a .500 bullet. I don't have any extraction issues, and all I should have to do is have the magazine shortened and blocked. Doesn't seem like a whole lot of work until you take into account the reloading process...this is where I need help...uhuh...uhuh...rcmodel...

1. Cut the case down to 1.625
2. De-prime
3. Full size die using a 300 wsm die (straighten the lower body to spec)
4. expand the case mouth using a S&W500 die (don't know how useful this would be)
5. seat the bullet (S&W500 die)

Then I have a bullet that is a lower 300wsm at .555, and a seated bullet at .530 around the neck. How would this work with a getting a barrel made?

If I can figure this out, I can sleep peacefully tonight. I'm basically wild-catting a cartridge to factory dimensions.:uhoh:
Is .025 that big of a difference to worry about all this? Could I use a cut-down lower 300wsm, then use S&W500 dies from there?

rcmodel
August 14, 2009, 11:39 AM
This is giving me a head hurt!

I don't know if that would work or not.
I don't have either a .300 Whizzem or a .500 S&W case I could section lengthwise to look at.

I would suspect a cut-off .300 rifle case would have a thicker taper in the case wall down where the bullet shank would need to be to seat a .500 bullet in it. That would bulge the case wall when the bullet was seated and prevent chambering.

Note case wall taper in this photo:
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j219/rcmodel/KTOG/Caseweb.jpg


Have you considered that a 45-70 in a Marlin or .458 Mag bolt-gun will drive a 400 grain bullet faster then the .500 S&W?
And the .45 caliber bullets will have a higher sectional density and ballistic coefficient for better long range trajectory and penetration?
And there are already plenty of rifles made for them.

rc

ants
August 15, 2009, 11:21 AM
NavyGuy, I know you didn't exactly ask about other cartridges, but have you seen the 50 Beowulf, LWR 499, and 458 SOCOM? Those are short but big-bore commercial rifle cartridges that fit standard bolt faces. And obviously someone is making barrel blanks. Maybe not your exact S&W500 but they appeal to the mini-50 desire.

NavyGuy
August 16, 2009, 09:06 PM
I wouldn't be putting myself through any of this if we could just use rifles in Indiana. I'm know there are WAY better existing cartridges. But here are rules I have to stick by:

Rifles with pistol cartridges
Rifles must fire a cartridge with a bullet of .357-inch diameter or larger; have a minimum case length of 1.16 inches; and have a maximum case length of 1.625 inches.

These rifle cartridges can be used only during the deer firearms season.
Some cartridges that are legal include the following:
.357 Magnum
.38-40 Winchester
.41 Magnum
.41 Special
.44 Magnum
.44 Special
.44-40 Winchester
.45 Colt
.454 Casull
.458 SOCOM
.480 Ruger
.475 Linebaugh
.50 Action Express
.500 S&W
Some illegal rifle cartridges for deer hunting are the .30-30 Winchester, .444 Marlin and .45-70 Govt.

Being that nobody makes an affordable rifle for the S&W 500, other than a single shot, I thought I could do it fairly cheap considering the only thing out there is a lever action for $1500 that doesn't get great feedback.

rcmodel,
I never even thought about a thicker case wall, but it might just help out being that the case diameter is a little bigger on the 300wsm.
300wsm case diameter = .555
S&W500 case diameter = .530
If the rifle case has a thicker case wall, it might help take up some of the slack.
What do you think?

Does anybody out there currently reload these two cartridges that could help out? You would just need to cut a 300wsm case to 1.625, then reload it like a regular S&W500 with the exception of the shell-holder. You'd be pretty awesome in my book if anyone could come through on this.

rcmodel
August 17, 2009, 12:40 PM
Since this is a handloading proposition from the getgo, what is wrong with a lever-action in .44 Mag or .45 Colt? Either one will kill a deer just as dead, if not deader then a 30-30 at normal deer hunting ranges. Either one will expand the bullet and shoot clear through a deer.
More power then that is wasted anyway.

Some folks even consider the .44 Mag carbine superior to the 30-30 for deer.

rc

NavyGuy
August 17, 2009, 12:58 PM
rcmodel,
I know, I know...my brother says the same thing. I guess it just bugs me that there is a niche that isn't filled. Plus, I've put so much thought into this thing now, it'd drive me nuts to drop it and move on. Just as well I guess, I don't have time or money right now to follow through on it this season anyway.

But...if anyone out there is reloading both cartridges, I wouldn't mind seeing how a bullet might seat...

lefteyedom
August 18, 2009, 01:38 AM
RCMODEL, Don't rain on the man's parade. If one person wants it as bad a NavyGuy does I would bet there are others that would like a 500 SW repeating rifle.

Here is a differant way to get what you want. Rebarrel a S&W pistol with a 16 1/2 barrel and have a shoulder stock fitted. Colt did this about 150 years ago.

rcmodel
August 18, 2009, 01:06 PM
Can't put a shoulder stock on a pistol without the ATF Pope's blessing.
Even if it has a long barrel on it.

Once a pistol, always a pistol in the eyes of the law.

rc

HoosierQ
August 18, 2009, 01:20 PM
Plus...even if you do get legal "blessing" to convert the revolver to a revolving rifle, heaven help you if you get your arm too close to the cylinder gap when that .500 goes off!!! You'll have to switch back to pistols 'cause you'll probably only have one arm...or one good one.

Jim K
August 18, 2009, 01:26 PM
There are a couple of issues/problems involved regarding both rim/case size and length. One is that the bolt face of most rifles has a support area for the case head. That is so the extractor has something to push the case against so it doesn't fall off the bolt face when it is pulled out of the chamber. So the bolt has to be big enough to allow it to be milled out for the .500 S&W rim. Note that the Short Magnum round has what is called a rebated rim, meaning that the rim is smaller than the case head; that was done to avoid altering the bolt. So the bolt will have to be altered; whether it can be altered is a matter of the bolt size.

The other potential problem is in the cartridge guides, whether these are part of the magazine or part of the receiver. If you look at the underside of a bolt action rifle receiver (say a Mauser), you will see that the receiver rails are undercut in a peculiar pattern. That pattern varies with the cartridge family used to insure that the cartridge is properly presented to the bolt face for feeding. When a receiver is altered for a different cartridge family, the feed guides have to be altered also. The magazine follower also might have to be altered. Unless a gunsmith has done many such alterations, those changes will be made on a trial-and-error basis, at high cost in time and money.

If the rifle has a detachable magazine, the magazine may require alteration, especially of the feed lips which serve the same purpose as the receiver rail guides. If the magazine is a single column and the cartridge is larger than the original, it may be simply impossible to alter it and a new magazine may have to be made, at considerable expense.

Note I am NOT saying not to do it. I am just trying to keep you from being disappointed or from giving the job to a gunsmith and then having sticker shock when you get the bill.

Jim

NavyGuy
August 18, 2009, 08:24 PM
Jim,
First and foremost, thanks for the input. Would all of this apply if I an using a rifle already chambered for a 300wsm? I am not talking about using a factory S&W500 here. Using a 300wsm case shortened to 1.625" and seating a .500 caliber bullet there. rcmodel already pointed out the headache of rechambering a rifle to another cartridge. But, the 300wsm and S&W500 have multiple similarities within the two cases at 1.625 and below. In other words, I'd use a 300wsm rifle, take a 300wsm case and shorten it to 1.625", and seat a .500 caliber bullet. I hope that makes sense, sorry to rattle on if you already understood that.

Seafarer12
August 18, 2009, 08:44 PM
Just pick up a cheap short action Savage and call ER Shaw. They don't have a 50 caliber listed but it doesn't hurt to ask. They do have 45 caliber. They also have more chambers then they have listed. I would first see if you could find a bolt head that would work with the round. They are pretty cheap. I personally would rather have 460 S&W just beacuse it is a more commom caliber. Better selection of bullets. A fifty is going to be high anyway you look at it.

Jim Watson
August 18, 2009, 08:55 PM
This would produce a cartridge with little or no shoulder.
A .45 ACP can headspace on the case mouth, but I wonder about a rifle with three times the chamber pressure and recoil holding headspace and holding bullets with only a taper crimp.

lefteyedom
August 19, 2009, 12:39 AM
Just pay the Tax it is not that big of a deal. "Send Lawyers, Guns and Money" (thank s Warren Z.) anything can be done.

264killer
August 26, 2009, 10:04 PM
get a 50 cal savage muzzle loader. have a machinest grind a chamber re amer. modifie a blot face to lock up. tie it to a tree & pull the
trigger. if it works then worry about feeding & eject. 110 bolt heads are only about twenty bucks . a clip feed receiver would save moddifing rails u need a cartridge receiver to stay out of fed troble, ps atf agent at tulsa gun show told me i put a stock on a masterpiece arms pistol if i put a 16 inch barrel on it

Wadson
September 6, 2010, 01:01 PM
Now im going to blow all your minds!! Why not take the 500 S&W and neck it down to 375?! Sorry to bring this thread back up but I definitely like where it's going and it's getting to that time of the year for people to try to find their magic Indiana Deer gun!! I have been thinking about necking down the 500 for a long time, it Never says that you can't neck the cartridge it just says "pistol rounds" and then goes into case dimensions. I have a couple buddy's that swear it says straightwall somewhere but I have yet to find it!

dirtyjim
September 6, 2010, 07:23 PM
the project wouldn't be all that difficult.
start out with a remington model 7 in 300SAUM to get the shortest action possible then open the bolt up for the .560 dia rim. the 700 bolts have been opened up for the .338 lapua & its .028" larger than the s&w. have a sako or an ar-15 extractor fitted at the same time the bolt is being opened up.

pac-nor or classic barrel works would be the best bet on the barrel, both of them list the correct bore size for the 500s&w.

as far as the feeding goes i would set up a inline magazine with a slight taper to keep the rims from interlocking.

i don't see anything about the project that i would consider hard or any more expensive than a standard rebarrel or magnum conversion.

moosehunt
September 8, 2010, 02:29 AM
I tend to agree with dirtyjim. I have great respect for Mr. Keenan and Mr. Model, but I think they might be over thinking the deal. A bit of bolt face modification may be in order, but that really isn't a major deal. I agree that feeding problems may be the biggest factor, but I'm betting not a game breaker. Over length magazine--I truly question if that is a real problem. While the resultant rifle doesn't appeal to me at all, personally, I say go for what flips your bick! The idea of using a .300 WSM (or SAUM) may not fit our mans needs to fit Indiana's goofy specs. If you're willing to spend a few bucks--and we're not talking fortunes here--I'd get after the project! I sincerely hope that NavyGuy gets back in here and reports his results (I hope he didn't give up on his idea). Christ all mighty, guys, this is what fun is!

dirtyjim
September 8, 2010, 08:48 PM
The idea of using a .300 WSM (or SAUM) may not fit our mans needs to fit Indiana's goofy specs.
i was recommending the remington model 7 in 300saum as a donor rifle for the project not recommending it be used as is with indiana's retarded regulations. i think it would be just about the perfect donor for the project for a couple of reasons that i'll try to explain.

I agree that feeding problems may be the biggest factor, but I'm betting not a game breaker. Over length magazine--I truly question if that is a real problem.

one of the reasons i recommended the model 7 is that its the shortest version of the remington 700. the 500s&w's overall length is approxx .560" shorter than the 300saum but when the magazine is angled to keep the rims from interlocking it will move the top round forward enough to make up the difference in overall lengths between the two cartridges.

i actually think a 500s&w rifle with a 18-20" barrel would make a very nice brush/pig gun and would be a great plinker with cast bullet loads

Jim K
September 8, 2010, 10:55 PM
Well, the original post is over a year old, so I presume the OP has either done the work or lost interest by this time.

Jim

NavyGuy
October 20, 2010, 11:23 AM
I'm still here and check on this thread every couple of months. I still want the rifle very much so. I have contacted some gunsmiths, but they won't have anything to do with it. I guess it's a little intimidating of a project. Ruger makes the 77/44, but.... I want what I want dammit! Anyone know of a good, brave, pioneer type gunsmith in the hampton roads area?

NavyGuy
December 29, 2010, 11:04 AM
I just sent the CEO of Ruger a message on this:

Mike,
Have you had many requests for a .500 S&W bolt action? The caliber REALLY cries out for a shoulder gun. The only rifles currently out are the H&R Handirifle single shot, and a $1,500 lever action by Big Horn Armory. Ruger already has most of the ground work done with the 77/44. Please do us all a favor and devote an hour or two searching for ".500 S&W bolt action". There is an overwhelming demand out there. I would love to hear your thoughts on this.

I'll post his reply when I get it.

NavyGuy
July 3, 2011, 08:45 AM
Still no reply from Ruger.

triggerman770
July 3, 2011, 12:10 PM
Layne Simpson just had a Marlin lever converted to 50 B&M Alaskan, which uses a .500 inch barrel instead of the normal 510. B&M rifles have afew bordores made on Win M-70. so you might be able to get a BBL made by SSK
to fit a M-70 or even a Mauser. or a blank in500 and use a 500 s&w reamer
then thread for what you want.

NavyGuy
July 16, 2011, 10:52 AM
Well boys and girls, after more than a year I've given up on the 500 S&W rifle. I have, however, found something I can hunt with in Indiana that shoots a heavy grain bullet fairly far and fairly accurate out to 200 yards. I think it is pretty close to what I wanted in the rifle except for the "just plain cool" factor. All I really wanted was to take an ethical shot across a field at 200 yards , be able to quickly get another round in the chamber, all in a state where only shotguns, muzzleloaders, and rifles in a handgun caliber are allowed. Here it is:

http://randywakeman.com/Savage220F.htm

Whatcha think?

roadchoad
July 18, 2011, 10:57 AM
Now im going to blow all your minds!! Why not take the 500 S&W and neck it down to 375?! Sorry to bring this thread back up but I definitely like where it's going and it's getting to that time of the year for people to try to find their magic Indiana Deer gun!! I have been thinking about necking down the 500 for a long time, it Never says that you can't neck the cartridge it just says "pistol rounds" and then goes into case dimensions. I have a couple buddy's that swear it says straightwall somewhere but I have yet to find it!

How are you going to argue that your one-off rifle, chambered in a wildcat specifically made for your rifle, is a rifle that uses a pistol round? Really , I don't know why they even mention pistol rounds, as the requirements of those rounds should be enough to differentiate between legal and illegal cartridges.

Additionally, .458 socom is not straight-walled and is specifically listed as legal.

Strykervet
July 18, 2011, 06:05 PM
If rechambering it for SW500 isn't doable, look into the .50 Beowulf. I have one of those in an AR upper, it is a LOT of fun! The ballistics between the two rounds are very similar, and they both use the same bullets. The difference is that the bolt face on the Beowulf is the same as 7.62x39.

I seem to recall there being bolt guns in this calibre.

For custom barrels, you could contact Satern, I recommend calling, not emailing though. You won't get a reply. They won't make a Beowulf barrel for you anymore (licensing) but if a SW500 barrel can be made, they would be the ones that could do it.

At any rate, both of these rounds are low pressure rounds, so finding an action to take the punishment should be no problem. The recoil is like a 12ga.

If all else fails, there is still the .50 Beowulf AR platform. Nice, light, handy, accurate, and semi auto as well. 16" bbl., 1650-1700fps. 400gr. Sierra JSP IIRC.

NavyGuy
July 18, 2012, 01:10 PM
Turns out I have a couple of friends in Indiana who might be tooling up for this project. They've been gunsmithing for quite some time. Check out their website...

http://tdmetalworks.com/

Give them some feedback if you would be interested in rifle like this. With the amount of hits this post has I'd say the demand is there.

dmckean44
March 25, 2013, 01:40 PM
I still wish this would become a reality.

Sun Tzu warrior
March 25, 2013, 10:55 PM
Navy Guy, Quote "I am not talking about using a factory S&W500 here. Using a 300wsm case shortened to 1.625" and seating a .500 caliber bullet there. rcmodel already pointed out the headache of rechambering a rifle to another cartridge. But, the 300wsm and S&W500 have multiple similarities within the two cases at 1.625 and below. In other words, I'd use a 300wsm rifle, take a 300wsm case and shorten it to 1.625", and seat a .500 caliber bullet."

If you do this, it won't be a S&W 500, it will be a 300 WSM variant wild cat rifle cartridge.
If the game warden looks at the head stamp on the cartridge, will he think it is a S&W 500, or a 300WSM?
Be sure this meets (as RC said, the Pope's criteria) the regulations, or you may be asking for trouble, they would love to get the money you saved. (and then some)

dmckean44
March 26, 2013, 05:13 PM
I don't think it would make much sense to do a 300 WSM wildcat variant. It looks to me that the dimensions would be similar enough to covert a 300 WSM to 500 S&W with a new barrel, some bolt work and maybe a little bit of magazine work.

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