Second most accurate military handgun ?


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mm1ut1
August 12, 2009, 06:36 PM
Since the SIG P210 has pretty much locked up first place, what mass produced, military issued handgun comes in second place for accuracey? I'm not talking about modified, just off the shelf guns. CZ 75?

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Bass Killer
August 12, 2009, 06:38 PM
Sig 226? or Beretta M9?

Jim Watson
August 12, 2009, 06:52 PM
The Luger.

For all the hype (and real quality) of the P-210, the Swiss would not accept a new sidearm until they were offered one as accurate as their beloved Lugers.

Bass Killer
August 12, 2009, 06:55 PM
Beretta 92

CWL
August 12, 2009, 07:00 PM
Jim Watson beat me to it!

I was going to put Artillery Luger because it had the 8" barrel and adjustable sights + detachable stock.

Shear_stress
August 12, 2009, 08:22 PM
My money would be on the S&W Model 15s issued to the USAF.

BCRider
August 12, 2009, 10:38 PM
You're obviously talking current issue.

From shooting some medium aged S&W revolvers I'd have to say that the new stuff would have to go some to achieve the groupings that would be possible with the old S&W Victory revolvers.

Either way though, it's more about how the gun interfaces with the shooter and the shooter's skills. ANY of the options currently available or historically available from the past 100 years will easily outshoot all but the very best top drawer shooters.

Perhaps the question should have been which gun works best in the hands of a medium level shooter? Hmm.... I'll bet the old Victory class revovlers would still be up there.

christcorp
August 12, 2009, 10:44 PM
As stupid as it might sound, my czech CZ-82 runs neck and neck with my sig P220. I noticed that I actually get bored shooting. With my other guns that have a 7 round magazine, I can shoot a mag and then go look at the target. But with 12 rounds in the CZ-82, all I get is one big a$$ hole in the paper. Granted, when I practice with handguns, it's to practice self defense. Which mean the furthest shots are 20-30 feet away. But damn if that CZ-82 isn't accurate as all hell. Must be that smooth polygonal barrel.

Quentin
August 13, 2009, 12:57 AM
Well when you talk accuracy you can't ignore a good 1911.

Blue Brick
August 13, 2009, 01:02 AM
Colt 45?

lechiffre
August 13, 2009, 01:19 AM
luger the gun the 210 replaced

sig 220 the replacement for the 210

mexico bought 3000 hk p7m13s for their military.

faizi
August 13, 2009, 03:07 AM
Cz-75b

bigfatdave
August 13, 2009, 04:51 AM
Either way though, it's more about how the gun interfaces with the shooter and the shooter's skills. ANY of the options currently available or historically available from the past 100 years will easily outshoot all but the very best top drawer shooters.That's what I came in to say.
Mechanical accuracy has reached the point that you'd have to have quite a lemon in your hands to be outshooting the gun. Ergonomics is what makes the difference now, and that is so personal that comparing various issued pistols on the basis of single-shot precision is pretty much futile. Now, the ease of follow-up shots might make a difference in combat or competition, but even that will be shooter-specific.
It isn't like there is a handgun in the world that a novice could pick up and shoot perfectly every shot ... if there was, we'd all be carrying it along with every military on the planet.

=====
1911GI Fan, you've asked the same question four times in four threads. If you're that uncomfortable or unfamiliar with the internal workings of your 1911, can you really call yourself a "fan"?

Shear_stress
August 13, 2009, 09:11 AM
You're obviously talking current issue.

From shooting some medium aged S&W revolvers I'd have to say that the new stuff would have to go some to achieve the groupings that would be possible with the old S&W Victory revolvers.

The M15s were issued starting in the 1960s. They are not current issue.

Landpimp
August 13, 2009, 11:31 AM
HK P8 or P10........german current issue HK USP 9mm

Wishoot
August 13, 2009, 12:12 PM
I'll vote for a CZ 75B because it's what I own right now and I shoot it very well.

With all due respect, this is kind of a strange question that will garner about a million different opinions.

Werewolf
August 13, 2009, 12:29 PM
CZ-75B

I've got 2. A 9mm and the other in .40S&W.

Both are more accurate than my Sigs - a P220 and a P232. Or maybe the ergonomics on the CZ are just better for me than the ergonomics on my Sigs. Who knows.

In any event I shoot the CZ way better than any of my other pistols except a S&W 1911 target and a Kimber Ultra Tac II.

Pocket Rocket
August 13, 2009, 01:09 PM
HK P8 or P10........german current issue HK USP 9mm

Are there substantial differences between the USP series pistols available in Germany versus those here in the US?

Landpimp
August 13, 2009, 02:37 PM
backwards saftey

rcmodel
August 13, 2009, 02:55 PM
I never considered the Luger to be all that great in the accuracy depertment.

You have to get past the atrocious 10 pound mushy trigger and tiny V sights to get any accuracy at all.

Many folks just can't.

rc

Deanimator
August 13, 2009, 04:00 PM
M1917 S&W .45acp revolver.

I had one that for all the world, looked like it had been hit in the barrel by a rifle bullet. It was still one of the most accurate handguns I've ever owned. The D/A pull was incredibly smooth. I was a fool to trade it for something else.

outerlimit
August 13, 2009, 04:54 PM
My guess it would be between a S&W 15, a 1911 or the world's most widely used military pistol the FN Hi-Power.

Dr_2_B
August 15, 2009, 11:51 PM
Sig P210 - There's nothing like being a far & away winner, is there?

Oro
August 16, 2009, 01:04 AM
The thread seem to be talking about all types of military issued handguns. In that case, the OP has it wrong thinking the SIG 210 is the most accurate of all time.

From shooting some medium aged S&W revolvers I'd have to say that the new stuff would have to go some to achieve the groupings that would be possible with the old S&W Victory revolvers.

The most accurate handgun I've ever laid hands on is a 1942 S&W Victory. One hole groups at most shooting sessions. I haven't seen a SIG that can touch it.

The 1917 and other N frame S&W military guns are good, but inherently the K frame has an advantage in size and caliber that the N variants and Colts can't beat. And no autos can touch the WWII S&Ws. So pretty much these are the most accurate, mass-produced military handguns of all time:

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd275/kamerer/S-W/1942%20Navy/IMGP4343-1.jpg

G.A.Pster
August 16, 2009, 02:12 AM
Probably the Luger.

loop
August 16, 2009, 05:33 AM
I find it odd that anyone would think a gun that fires a cartridge that is not known for its accuracy to be the world's most accurate...

There isn't a 9 on earth that can beat out the war horse revolvers. They can scarcely hold their own against 1911s.

Popularity does not equate to accuracy.

And, while there is a considerable knock against .45 ACP as being old and outdated, how is it that the OLDER 9mm is not in the same category?

And, if it is so accurate, why aren't they dominating the firing line at bull's eye competitions?

Those guys are out to win and a tenth of an inch on one shot can be the difference between winning and losing. What do you see at bull's eye? A slew of 1911s, a smattering of CZs in .45 and an occasional oddball.

The 9s are making strides and may someday be as accurate as the bigger bore, but it is a fallacy to assume any 9 is as accurate as a quality .45. The case and bullet design prohibit it.

Shoot with your local bull's eye bunch. I'd be shocked if anyone shooting a 9 can score in the top 10 percent.

You are operating from a false assumption.

bigfatdave
August 16, 2009, 06:30 AM
Shoot with your local bull's eye bunch. I'd be shocked if anyone shooting a 9 can score in the top 10 percent. And those top 10% are among the very few that might actually notice a difference. The handgun operator who is being limited by the inherent mechanical accuracy of his/her gun is pretty rare, unless we're talking about a junk gun or a poorly-maintained gun.

We can go back and forth on which issue pistol is the most accurate, if shot from a ransom rest with perfectly loaded ammo ... but the fact remains, modern guns are pretty damn accurate. Shooting freehand (for the vast majority of shooters) is what is introducing inaccuracy to the equation, far more than the gun. Add in that most military-issue sidearms are carried frequently and shot rarely ... and that they are designed with reliability more in mind than accuracy, and the whole debate becomes a bit silly.

Oro
August 16, 2009, 09:19 AM
and that they are designed with reliability more in mind than accuracy, and the whole debate becomes a bit silly.

Yep, silly. Just flat silly this accuracy vs. reliability debate. Just silly. Who wants to actually decide - because if revolvers win we'll just be embarassed... - no reason to actually judge it... ;)

Rinspeed
August 16, 2009, 10:43 AM
Sig 226.

Blakenzy
August 16, 2009, 11:04 AM
it is a fallacy to assume any 9 is as accurate as a quality .45. The case and bullet design prohibit it.

Anyone care to elaborate on this? What design characteristics do make one cartridge inherently more accurate than another?

Shear_stress
August 16, 2009, 01:51 PM
And, if it is so accurate, why aren't they dominating the firing line at bull's eye competitions?

Those guys are out to win and a tenth of an inch on one shot can be the difference between winning and losing. What do you see at bull's eye? A slew of 1911s, a smattering of CZs in .45 and an occasional oddball.

This is kind of a bogus argument. The .45 is popular in Bullseye competition because these events were designed around the .45. For example, in order to achieve Distinguished designation, you are required to use a .45 caliber 1911-type pistol. In addition, for the centerfire portion of the matches, most people just use the same .45 pistol they were already using for the .45 Caliber semiautomatic pistol event. This has nothing to do with the supposed inaccuracy of the 9mm and everything to do with not buying and training with two different centerfire pistols.

As a round, the .45 ACP does of the advantage of being somewhat easier to reload for than the 9mm and the larger diameter makes it easier for the shooter to clip the 10-ring. But, I've never seen any evidence that the 9mm is somehow intrinsically inaccurate.

nathan
August 16, 2009, 04:54 PM
BRowning Hi Power is my pick.

13.45
August 16, 2009, 05:09 PM
interesting insight re: the WWII S&W revolvers, as i have no personal experience with them

SlamFire1
August 16, 2009, 07:32 PM
Does it matter?

I recall missing 12 inch plates at seven yards when I used to shoot IPSC. Having the most accurate handgun in the world won't make up for errors induced by stress.

Hk Dan
August 16, 2009, 08:04 PM
Come on--HK Mark 23, hands down.

m2steven
August 16, 2009, 10:14 PM
I think the argument about 9mm's not being as accurate as 45's is good, but not complete.

I have a co2 powered pellet pistol which will put the same pellet in the same little pellet hole at 20 yards. My 'bigger' 9mms' shoot pretty much exactly as does my 1911. My CZ75 and Taurus 92 both shoot with my 1911. The barrel of a 45 is longer vs bullet speed relative to your average 9mm shot. That
helps right there. Do the arithmetic, it sounds like bull*****, but it isn't. 2000 fps through 5 inches is shorter than 1000fps through 5 inches. There are all kinds of factors involved, but a good 9mm barrel flowing a good slug will give
excellent results. Plus, if fired from the same inertial plane, the faster slug will age less than the slower one. Cool but probably inconsequential.

VA27
August 17, 2009, 01:16 AM
Romainian TT33. Gun and 1200rds of ammo for about $300. It's military issue and its accuracy is on a par with the HkP7.

FMFDevildoc
August 17, 2009, 01:25 AM
Being quite recently involved with lots of Beretta M92 use; I would say personally, it is somewhere between 'not bad' and 'wish I had a 1911'....

loop
August 17, 2009, 06:30 AM
I'm still waiting for the proof the P210 is THE MOST ACCURATE MILITARY HANDGUN ISSUED ever.

Or proof the 9 can do anything as well in one shot as the .45.

Proof, not speculation.

usp9
August 17, 2009, 07:50 AM
Sig P210 - There's nothing like being a far & away winner, is there?

Not sure it is. The HK MK23 is very accurate. I'd like to see a head to head competition.

LancerMW
August 17, 2009, 08:40 AM
model 10

Mike OTDP
August 17, 2009, 11:16 AM
I hate to burst everyone's bubble, but a Remington 1863 revolver in good shape will shoot 1-inch groups at 25 yards. The real question is whether a P210 can perform to that standard...it comes close.

Landpimp
August 17, 2009, 11:47 AM
210 is more accurate than a Mk23

if were talking about special issue handguns, then the HK P9s 9mm used by the SEALS(not widely) would be my bet.

jaholder1971
August 17, 2009, 12:54 PM
Overall? Smith and Wesson Model 15 followed by the FN Hi Power.

Ala Dan
August 17, 2009, 03:37 PM
I would have to add the SIG P228, formerly used by the Army's CID units,
and by the ATF~! ;) :)

Boberama
August 20, 2009, 06:59 AM
One of those Artillery model Lugers with the long barrel and shoulder stock.
http://imperialarms.home.att.net/Images/Lugers/1920LongBarrel.jpg

Kevin77
August 21, 2009, 09:12 AM
I would say (and I think John Browning would agree) that it's the 1911 and the browning hi-power. I could be alittle predjudice since he was a local boy.

SlamFire1
August 21, 2009, 09:34 AM
Last night talked to a couple of guys from my Gun Club who shot Bullseye Pistol at Camp Perry 09.

They are converting over to M92 9mm's. Less recoil in rapids I think.

Their Bullseye pistols only look like Service pistols, internally they are not.

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