What gun suitable for defensive use?


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Younggunner
August 13, 2009, 01:14 AM
good day everybody
i'm looking for a good all around gun for ranch use and defense if needed. i'm fourteen and left at the house a lot so just in case. i'd like to be ready.
I currently own a remington 870 in 20 gauge and i have a remington 270 700 adl bolt rifle. i would like a nice semi auto to use. the fact that i am left handed seems to be the biggest problem but with my 270 i have learned to shoot right handed. i'm currently looking into an m1 carbine and that seems like a good gun and since i'm paying out of my own pocket, the price won't kill me. i can't afford an ar 15 but are there any other good semi's that would fit the bill??
Thanks
Daniel

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ScareyH22A
August 13, 2009, 01:17 AM
Wow, I wish I owned firearms when I was 14. Good for you! Maybe a Mini-14?

Younggunner
August 13, 2009, 01:20 AM
i've fired the mini 14 once or twice. i don't like the fact that after a few magazines my accuracy diminishes. at 50 yards i'll take my 20 gauge with deer slugs before i take a mini. but thats just my opinion.

AKElroy
August 13, 2009, 01:28 AM
Daniel--What do your parents suggest? At 14, this needs to be a family decision. A lot goes in to a defensive plan, and the gun is only a part of that. A dangerous part if not worked into an overall protection plan. I commend you for considering how you should protect yourself & I hope you work with your family to design a plan that keeps you safe.

Without a proper plan, you run a risk of leaving yourself vulnerable to things you may not have considered, and just as bad, the risk of hurting those you love. This is just my .02, but I would suggest no gun for SD without a plan & plenty of practice. Even then, this is a heavy load for a 14 year old to carry, one I would never impose on my kids until they were much older.

fireman 9731
August 13, 2009, 01:32 AM
+1 to what AKElroy says.

Get a WASR-10(Romanian AK-47) for 300 bucks and a case of cheap ammo.

But make sure you can effectively fire it left handed first.

Younggunner
August 13, 2009, 01:37 AM
my parents say that if it got "bad" we would be with one of my friends families and my neighbor who is in the FBI. so i would be with a gun. just in case i needed it. strictly for defense. not the kids dumb dream. of rambo with the ak and bullets across his chest. i would be worried about the carrying things though. i'm currently 5'8 and 200 pounds so i think i could do well with maybe 80 pound pack? at least that what happened with football practice.

Younggunner
August 13, 2009, 01:40 AM
forgot to mention. my dad spent 20 years in the navy as a medic. and my friends dad is currently a LEO. so i would be the back up.

ByAnyMeans
August 13, 2009, 02:15 AM
Alot to influence the decision. If you dad has rifles and reloads for them you may want something in a common caliber such as .308 or 30-30. A 30-30 is a great rifle and low key compared to an AK. That said I have an AK so I'm in no way knocking it as a SHTF gun.

Birdmang
August 13, 2009, 02:28 AM
I'm having a hard time believing your age!

Idk if its because forums are full of adults who type like kids or what?!

I would get a marlin lever action 30-30 or an sks.

Younggunner
August 13, 2009, 02:31 AM
My dad has only two guns. He has a 30-06 and a single shot 12 gauge. His theory is that if you can't kill somebody with a good shot of 00 buck you deserve to die. I personally like the 5 shot capacity of my shotgun and the clackity clack sound it makes. He doesn't reload so that can be a problem but my neighbor and my friends dad both reload. If I could have a true bug out rifle I would like an ak. But as it is. I trust the accuracy of the m1 carbine I'm saving for over the sights on a cheap rommy. What would you pick? If I get the m1, I will save money so that I can get an ultimak folding stock and a metal ventilated handgaurd. That would be my choice unless I could find a decent AK.

Nematocyst
August 13, 2009, 02:37 AM
Younggunner, Daniel, I commend not only your inquiry and responses, but your writing skills. You do both better with both than a lot of adults around here. :scrutiny:

I second the idea of a Marlin .30-30. (Click on "levers" in my sig line for one of the longest discussions about the Marlin 336 on the web.) It'll do great for what you have in mind (back up, defense) but also serve you extremely well as a hunting rifle. You can even "download it" with light bullets (down to 100 gr or less) for small game, if you or your dad handloads.

One can also shorten it to 16.5" if you want more of a ... well, never mind. I won't go there.

Keep up the good posts, and keep us posted about what you decide.

Nem

conw
August 13, 2009, 02:37 AM
The M1 carbine is not considered accurate over long distances. I'm not experienced with either type of gun, but I doubt it's going to be more accurate than most AKs that are functioning properly.

The s almost definitely won't hit the fan in the way you're describing, and you'd be better off using your 270 if it did and you were somehow justified in picking people off at long distances. Otherwise, you still shouldn't ever need to engage people defensively past say 30 yards, and that's a huge stretch.

I am partial to the Hi-point 9mm 995 carbine, and it's way cheaper than anything you listed. $200 or so. Nicely accurate for practical purposes out to 75 yards for most shooters, definitely more if you get the .40 version. Ammo is cheaper.

I think your needs are covered by your current two guns, but if you want a fun gun that does something your current two don't do that well (engagement at moderate distances...fast follow-up shots), look into the HP carbine.

Younggunner
August 13, 2009, 02:48 AM
Nematocyst-thankyou and my main problem with the lever gun as much as I love shooting my friends marlin, is the fact that ammo is very expensive for 30-30. I pay the same price for my 270. And the m1 costs $20 for 50 rounds. Which is better than $20 for 20 of the previous 2 big rounds listed.
Conwict- I handled the highpoint at the last gunshow I went to. I didn't like the fact that it looked like my little brothers air soft gun, if I had to have a weapon and expect to intimidate my attacker, I wouldn't want him to think it was fake which could cause a fire fight which would mist likely end up with one of us dead. And if I wanted a 9mm carbine, I would go with a kel tec sub 2000 that took glock magazines. I could then use my neighbors extra magazines for his glock, whereas the high point only takes highpoint mags, that is my understanding. And I'm afraid that if I get an ak. Obama can take away imported 7.62x39 with a stroke of a pen. This leaves me with the m1 carbine or a 357 mag levergun.

jakemccoy
August 13, 2009, 03:19 AM
Regarding a SHTF gun, I'd suggest a Saiga 308 or a Remington 870. These are proven, rugged guns that will work dirty. You're big enough to handle these guns without a problem. Also, I have these guns and really like them.

It's a good discussion, even though I don't believe you're 14. By the way, I noticed that you suddenly learned perfectly how to use the Shift key in Post #10...good job. ;)

General Geoff
August 13, 2009, 03:21 AM
Younggunner, which Mini-14s did you shoot before? The new ones (last year or so) are considerably more accurate than their predecessors for a variety of reasons.


As for the folks who are chiding this young man, it is not really our place to tell him not to worry about this. Assuming he is telling the truth, his parents obviously feel that he is old enough and, more importantly, responsible enough to handle firearms safely, and use them effectively should the need arise. That's enough reason for me dismiss the notion that he's "too young" or "too immature" for a SHTF gun or inclusion in an emergency family plan.



However, I'm also in disbelief you're 14.

Maturity level and English skills weigh far more heavily into a poster's perceived age than actual age. :)

jakemccoy
August 13, 2009, 03:40 AM
If your intruder has a gun and it's a rural environment, there could easily be a situation where engaging that intruder at 100+ yards may be justified easily. We are talking SHTF here, not normal civility.

ThrottleJockey72
August 13, 2009, 03:48 AM
i'm currently looking into an m1 carbine and that seems like a good gun and since i'm paying out of my own pocket, the price won't kill me. i can't afford an ar 15 but are there any other good semi's that would fit the bill??
Somethings fishy, I call BS. How is a $1000 M1 more affordable than a $1000 AR? And where does a 14yo that can't even legally have a job yet get that kind of money?

razorback2003
August 13, 2009, 03:55 AM
If your parents are ok with you owning firearms, buy plenty of ammunition and practice. I also suggest a quality 22LR rifle for fun. Nothing beats a good 22LR rifle for practice. Centerfire ammo gets pretty expensive for someone who can't drive alone yet. A brick of 22 and a good bolt action or semi auto rifle will go a long way to teaching you marksmanship. If you don't hunt, I suggest that you get into small game hunting with a 22. Take up squirrel and rabbit hunting. It will teach you how to slip through the woods and take game. All the guns in the world don't do you a lot of good if you can't slip out in the woods to eat in the event you get hungry or you don't have a job and need a meal. You can hunt economically with a 22. In a pinch (not legal in most states) you can kill small deer with head shots with a 22 rifle. Hunting teaches a lot of things...from butchering animals...to the cooking of game....to how to outsmart wild animals.

JohnnyOrygun
August 13, 2009, 04:38 AM
When I was his age, I thought along the same lines. I only had my 10/22 at the time, but I knew how to use my Dad's guns. So I think it would be better to answer his questions then try to belittle him or think he is a troll. He comes across articulate and his answers and thoughts seem accurate, his point about ammo being $20 for 20 rounds for most larger centerfire rounds is pretty accurate. Although 30-30 seems more like $10-$12 for 20 rounds.

As to my answer to your question Younggunner, I chose a 580 series Mini 14. I just got it this last week so I haven't had a chance to shoot it yet, but from everything I hear, they are more accurate. Another thought might be one of Remington's Pump action rifles in 223 or 308, they can use AR mags (at least the 223's) and since you are already familiar with pump action shotguns, the manual of arms would be basically the same.

Anyhow good luck and don't let some of theses old fogies get you down.

JohnnyOrygun

BTW for some of you naysayers, my Dad was in Japan getting ready to be deployed to Korea at 15. Yes he was large for his age and managed to trick the Army when he enlisted. If I remember the story right he went down and signed up for the draft and they didn't really check him out very carefully, after all who in their right mind would sign up for the draft if they weren't draft age?! Then went to the Army "recruiters" office and said "...I might as well volunteer now, rather then wait to get drafted..." he had his draft registration paperwork and they took him in, he was 14 at the time. Now his reason for joining up wasn't because he was blood thirsty, but Grandma was a widow and he wanted to help her financially, so he joined up. It was only after Grandma found out what he had done that she got him out of the Army before he got sent to Korea. My Dad lived a very interesting life... very and I don't know all the stories, he never told me everything before he passed away... He was sort of embarrassed about some of his adventures.

So not all 14 year old's are immature, some are mature beyond their age and can think for themselves.

Sorry for the thread drift and the rather long (for me anyhow) post. Now back to your regular thread.

JohnnyOrygun

MarineOne
August 13, 2009, 10:34 AM
He's 14, and as he's stated, 5 foot 8 and 200 pounds. For comparison, my son is 13 (14 in December) and is 5 foot 6 and 135.


I think someone jumped into a box of Honey Buns and is suffering from a terminal sugar rush.

While I've talked to both my kids about shooting, firearm safety, and what to do if an intruder enters the home, I have yet to discuss a SHTF scenario with him because he's got a few years before he needs to know.

And if the neighbors are a LEO and an FBI agent, why is he going to be backup? Are there no other adults (even young adults) that can fill this role?


Sorry, I'm calling BS.



Kris

RiverwinoIA
August 13, 2009, 10:40 AM
"If the SHTF happens, one untrained teen carrying a semi-auto gun isn't going to save anybody from an group of people who mean business."

Say he hears a firefight start while away from home/camp, sneaks in for a look, and happens to be on the flank of 'the group of people who mean business'. Assuming he can shoot his semiauto rifle well and keep a cool head, he will certianly have an effect on the outcome of the fight, regardless of any formal combat training he has had.

TheProf
August 13, 2009, 10:49 AM
You're 14...and thinkng about guns? Now I'm sure that many a fourteen year olds have been saved with a handgun.....but........ consider the possibility that you may not have the experience/maturity to have a firearm at this age (for self-defense). This is different from going out hunting or target practice. You will be making life and death situation.

Those of us here that are over 40 can look back at our 20s and say, "what was I thinking then?" Now compare this to age 14. Don't take this as an insult. It was not meant to be. The point is... you may end up doing something with your gun that you may regret later.

There are many other things that you can work on (in terms of self-defense) at this young age: evasion, de-escalation techniques, escape, etc.

Duelist
August 13, 2009, 10:55 AM
Well, if your parents allow, I would say a left-handed Stag Arms AR-15.

I would stop worrying so much about tshtf and looking a little more at the girls though. Enjoy high school. You only get to go through it once, so have as much fun as you can.

CoRoMo
August 13, 2009, 11:21 AM
If the internet and THR had existed when I was 14, I'd probably have made a thread just like this.

The only right answer is... "Go talk to your dad and mom about this".

Norinco982lover
August 13, 2009, 11:28 AM
Saiga in .223 (convert it). It's cheaper than an AR and will last forever.

THE DARK KNIGHT
August 13, 2009, 11:55 AM
Four words for you buddy

Avtomat Kalashnikov-Type Semiautomatic

Lots of different kinds of semi auto AKs of all types, for cheap. You would need at least 2000 rounds for SHTF. But why stop there buddy? You will also need a gas mask, chemical suit, some sort of armor, bandoliers to carry all that ammo, boots, lots of canned food, MREs, flint sticks, a good flashlight, ballistic plates, a sidearm, a backup gun, and if you can scrounge up the cash a helicopter would be a good idea.

Also make sure your gun is chambered for .223, thats the NATO round so it will help when you are fighting alongside the National Guard so you guys can share ammo and stuff.

Also invest in some quality tin foil to line your gas mask/helmet with. You know, to prevent the government mind control rays that theyve been using since the Roswell incident. Also make sure to play lots of Call of Duty 4 as it is a very good, realistic war-time simulation.

TexasRifleman
August 13, 2009, 11:55 AM
You're 14...and thinkng about guns? Now I'm sure that many a fourteen year olds have been saved with a handgun.....but........ consider the possibility that you may not have the experience/maturity to have a firearm at this age (for self-defense). This is different from going out hunting or target practice. You will be making life and death situation.

That's a broad brush to paint with.

I had a Mini14, kept loaded with a 30 round mag, in my bedroom, for defensive purposes, from the age of about 13 onward with no parental supervision at all as far as access to the firearm or anything like that.

Living in the country is a whole other world in some ways. OP said he lives on a farm.

In fact, for Texas anyway, there are exemptions in the firearm law to allow persons as young as 14 to have access to firearms in agricultural/farm living situations.

Younggunner
August 13, 2009, 12:06 PM
Ok for everyone that says I'm not fourteen. I don't care what you think. I'm sorry that I'm able to be articulate and express my thoughts well. I apologize for not being the stereotypical teenager that is constantly getting high at school or watching porn at home. I'm sorry I want to learn.
Back to my topic. Are there ways to convert a saiga for a collapsable buttstock without moving the trigger configuration? Someone please answer my question. You're gonna say I'm to little to be thinking about this. Don't bother commenting.

Daniel

Younggunner
August 13, 2009, 12:08 PM
And the ranch rifle I shot was from the 90's.

THE DARK KNIGHT
August 13, 2009, 12:09 PM
Are there ways to convert a saiga for a collapsable buttstock without moving the trigger configuration? Someone please answer my question. You're gonna say I'm to little to be thinking about this. Don't bother commenting.


Theres a bolt on stock/grip with collapsible or folding stock. These are awful. The gun is arguably worse than stock with these. Just convert the Saiga. You can do it for as little as $75. If you live on a farm you've got the tools.

Norinco982lover
August 13, 2009, 12:10 PM
Ok for everyone that says I'm not fourteen. I don't care what you think. I'm sorry that I'm able to be articulate and express my thoughts well. I apologize for not being the stereotypical teenager that is constantly getting high at school or watching porn at home. I'm sorry I want to learn.
Back to my topic. Are there ways to convert a saiga for a collapsable buttstock without moving the trigger configuration? Someone please answer my question. You're gonna say I'm to little to be thinking about this. Don't bother commenting.

yes, very easily. Very very easily. It's actually all 1 part. However...you will be out of compliance if you use more than 10 round magazines. So I highly recommend converting it. I'm sure you and your dad can do it together. It's really really easy. forum.saiga-12.com has great info that will help you. I haven't gotten mine yet (selling my sks with tapco t6 stock this month) but I can't wait to get started in the Saiga world.

~Norinco

Younggunner
August 13, 2009, 12:12 PM
Just saying now. I don't live on a farm. If I wrote that I made a mistake. BUT if we had to leave today the place we would go would be my neighbors very large ranch. As of now I live in northwest Austin. And what is this upgrade for the saiga? My friends dad builds guns all the time, he adjusted the trigger on my 270 a while back. So I'm sure I could just pay him to do it.

Younggunner
August 13, 2009, 12:14 PM
So I can convert it. And stay in compliance with high cap magazines? Sounds like a deal. Unless I can get my hands on a newer ranch rifle.

Norinco982lover
August 13, 2009, 12:15 PM
Just saying now. I don't live on a farm. If I wrote that I made a mistake. BUT if we had to leave today the place we would go would be my neighbors very large ranch. As of now I live in northwest Austin. And what is this upgrade for the saiga? My friends dad builds guns all the time, he adjusted the trigger on my 270 a while back. So I'm sure I could just pay him to do it.

The upgrade just moves the trigger forward (a new trigger group is about $40). It is a much much better trigger and very simple to do. Also, the Saiga's are built in Russia (they are actually AK's) and they were changed from AK's to the Saiga build so they could be imported into the US. Once converted they are a top of the line AK build. They can also use AK magazines.

~Norinco

TexasRifleman
August 13, 2009, 12:17 PM
st saying now. I don't live on a farm. If I wrote that I made a mistake. BUT if we had to leave today the place we would go would be my neighbors very large ranch.

Probably my mistake. You said ranch use and I assumed you lived on one.

Norinco982lover
August 13, 2009, 12:20 PM
good day everybody
i'm looking for a good all around gun for ranch use and defense if needed.

I can understand how we could assume he lived on a ranch:)

Younggunner, you could also get a Saiga in .308 and leave it stock and use it with the 8 or 10 round magazines as a main battle rifle. Not cheap ammo but it is Nato.

~Norinco

hardluk1
August 13, 2009, 12:21 PM
Several good ideas here. A good 22lr rifle can hit out to 200 yards, not allways a 2" or less but groups can easily shoot 4" at that distance. And like was said, cheap to shoot. Don't know about gun laws where your at on your property but for protection on all your property if you can carry a hand gun then a basic 9 shot 22 revolver with a 4 to 6 inch barrel. Or up grade to a 357 and practice with 38's. If a rifle with a higher capaciity then maybe a lever rifle in 357 would fit the bill. Pick up a used winchester or marlin to a puma. Should be good for some 150 yard + shoots. You know that shotgun with a slug barrel and scope is good out to 150yards and even beyound that a ways for minute of body shots. But so would a 357 lever gun. Hard to carry a rifle around sometimes when out on the property work'n. Maybe the revolver or a pistol like a 9mm? See what the fbi guy says about a pistol on your property. Don't even ask which one!! You allready have a shotgun that can be made to reach out at bit farther than you think,and a 270 for out to where they would want to stick around.

DMK
August 13, 2009, 12:25 PM
I don't think you can go wrong with an M1 carbine, a 20ga shotgun and a Rem 700. A good handgun would be a good addition, but that might be difficult for a teenager.

You need to consider what SHTF is or is likely to be. This could be a very different situation to different people depending on your geography. Take for example the Rodney King riots in LA, vs Hurricane Katrina in New Orleans, vs. Hurricane Katrina in rural Mississippi. Then there is the most likely scenario of someone just trying to break into your house and getting surprised because you are home sick or something.

Regardless, the shotgun and carbine should handle any situation. Contrary to some folks opinion, the M1 is very accurate and deadly out to at least 100 yards. You shoot someone anywhere past that and you'll have great difficulty justifying self defense.

Younggunner
August 13, 2009, 12:29 PM
This issue keeps coming up. I do have a 22 it's a marlin model 60, this was my first gun.
I'm still confused about the conversion. I've heard a bunch of answers. You buy the new trigger group, and then this let's you put all sorts of goodies on it, but how does the trigger conversion let you take ak mags? An if I got one in 223 would it take ak 74 mags?
Thanks
Daniel

Gunfighter123
August 13, 2009, 12:30 PM
As for the folks who are chiding this young man, it is not really our place to tell him not to worry about this. Assuming he is telling the truth, his parents obviously feel that he is old enough and, more importantly, responsible enough to handle firearms safely, and use them effectively should the need arise. That's enough reason for me dismiss the notion that he's "too young" or "too immature" for a SHTF gun or inclusion in an emergency family plan.


And I TOTALLY AGREE with Gen. Geoff's comment above.

It always amazes me some of the things a "adult" will say to a young person who comes here to ask a legit question and perhaps LEARN SOMETHING.

Norinco982lover
August 13, 2009, 12:34 PM
This issue keeps coming up. I do have a 22 it's a marlin model 60, this was my first gun.
I'm still confused about the conversion. I've heard a bunch of answers. You buy the new trigger group, and then this let's you put all sorts of goodies on it, but how does the trigger conversion let you take ak mags? An if I got one in 223 would it take ak 74 mags?
Thanks
Daniel

Check out forum.saiga-12.com for answers to these questions. The Saiga + some parts = affordable top of the line AK for under $600.

jakemccoy
August 13, 2009, 12:35 PM
Are there ways to convert a saiga for a collapsable buttstock without moving the trigger configuration? Someone please answer my question. You're gonna say I'm to little to be thinking about this. Don't bother commenting.

If you're interested in a Saiga, then you should waltz on over to http://forum.saiga-12.com, where they talk about all things Saiga.

By the way, I've come across kids like you when I was 14. Actually, I was kind of like you. I was a bit nerdy and into other things, like RC cars, pool plumbing, musical instruments, sports and other crap like that. I suppose if I lived out in the boondocks, I'd be into guns in the same way you are.

Heck, even if you're not really 14, I still knew kids like you growing up. These guys eventually grew and ended up going to schools like MIT and Cal Tech. That includes me. ;)

jackstinson
August 13, 2009, 12:38 PM
He's 14, and as he's stated, 5 foot 8 and 200 pounds.
Yet folks suggest that he sit around and play video games? ;)
Better to strap on that hypothetical 80 pound pack and go hiking on that hypothetical ranch. Not to be rude or anything; but at that young age and high BMI ratio, I'd be more concerned with diabetes or heart disease taking me out long before I would any shtf scenario.

BTW: I don't buy this thread as genuine either.

Coyote3855
August 13, 2009, 12:40 PM
When I was 14 (yeah, I can still remember even though it was 50 years ago), I owned a Remington 870 20 gauge, a Model 70 .30-06, and Remington pump .22. We did duck and cover atom bomb drills in junior high, but SHTF scenarios were not in the public consciousness to the degree the they are today. Still, I had a strong interest in "survival" scenarios and I spent hours assembling "kits" and reading adventure stories. So IMHO, the OP could be legit, although the medic/LEO/last gunshow post and other subsequent posts have me wondering.

Gunfighter123
August 13, 2009, 12:40 PM
Just my 2 cents --- I would not be getting a M1 carbine - it is a little underpowered , not very accurate over 50 yards or so , and finding ammo for it could be hard.

I'd stay with .223 , .308 , or 7.62X39 ----- in a Hell in a Handbasket senerio , these three caliburs , along with .22rf , will be what is mostly found/scrounged as well as a good tradeing item , if need be.

BushyGuy
August 13, 2009, 12:45 PM
My SHTF gun is my trusted Bushmaster Rifle and my SR9mm

travellingJeff
August 13, 2009, 12:45 PM
M1 Garand, I'd say.


Also, ignore the nay sayers, 14 year olds have fought in wars before. You're never too "young" to defend your family!

Younggunner
August 13, 2009, 01:04 PM
For whoever said they were "wondering"
my friends dad is a LEO and has his credentials to prove it:
my dad was in the navy for 20 years, he was on the USS truxton for 3 of those years, it is now out of commission. Look it up if you'd like. He was stationed in San Diego, lamore, (northern California) and Italy and then traveled everywhere else. He met my mom becaus of the navy in Korea.
As for the gunshow. The last time I went to a gunshow with my dad was the SAXET gunshow in Austin. It was before Christmas. I decided I didn't like any ofthe guns in my price range so I went to a pawn shop a week after Christmas with the money from Christmas and decided to buy a guitar. Everything I said is true. I'm pretty sure I spelled truxton wrong though. Other than that, that's what I know.

ccsniper
August 13, 2009, 01:12 PM
Get a WASR-10(Romanian AK-47) for 300 bucks and a case of cheap ammo

sorry those days are gone for now.

get a saiga ak in .223/5.56 and either convert it, or buy the extra expensive mags that they make for it. They also make promags for it.

for those who thinks this is BS, I was preparing for the russian invasion since I was 8 (thank you Red Dawn). It is the ONLY reason I started buying so many guns. Of course that probably won't happen, maybe... :evil:

ccsniper
August 13, 2009, 01:14 PM
And we should not overlook the legality of his inquiry. He says that HE wants to own a firearm, which is, strictly speaking, illegal.

In Arkansas it is not. As long as his legal guardians say it is okay.

Norinco982lover
August 13, 2009, 01:16 PM
What are the chances that this thread will appear in a future segment of 60 Minutes, Dateline, or some other anti show stating "Our producer posed as a 14 year old male and was able to get recommendations on which assault rifle to buy, AND instructions on how to convert a standard rifle into an AK-47 assault weapon." Just sayin...

And we should not overlook the legality of his inquiry. He says that HE wants to own a firearm, which is, strictly speaking, illegal.

There is too much here that smells...tread carefully, fellow gunowners.


He has said that he wants to do this with the supervision of his dad and this rancher. I am unaware of Texas state laws making it illegal to possess a rifle at the age of 14 (only buy from dealers is prohibited). He has not even mentioned if he is talking about getting one right now or if he is talking about when he turns 18.

~Norinco

Younggunner
August 13, 2009, 01:17 PM
Mountainpharm- none of the guns I "own" are mine. I saved the money for them a d gave my dad the money and he bought the gun. The gunstores in this area have saiga's in stock and my dad almost bought one, the man at the counter said as long as the gun is under a parents name it's fine. Are you expecting me to go crazy and shoot my friends?! Seriously the chances that I actually have to use a gun for defense are very small. So I'm mostly likely gonna be shooting at hogs, and other critters at my neighbors ranch. So you can just calm down. I already have enough people not beleiving me. Why don't u say something constructive like "why don't you buy a lever gun? Then at least you can't be questioned for purposes of buying an assault rifle" instead of your response.

Norinco982lover
August 13, 2009, 01:22 PM
Mountainpharm- none of the guns I "own" are mine. I saved the money for them a d gave my dad the money and he bought the gun. The gunstores in this area have saiga's in stock and my dad almost bought one, the man at the counter said as long as the gun is under a parents name it's fine. Are you expecting me to go crazy and shoot my friends?! Seriously the chances that I actually have to use a gun for defense are very small. So I'm mostly likely gonna be shooting at hogs, and other critters at my neighbors ranch. So you can just calm down. I already have enough people not beleiving me. Why don't u say something constructive like "why don't you buy a lever gun? Then at least you can't be questioned for purposes of buying an assault rifle" instead of your response.


That would be illegal:)

Coyote3855
August 13, 2009, 01:26 PM
Younggun, in addition to all the other nitpicking you've been subjected to, I suggest you fix your signature line. While I know Marines who have been rehabilitated, reenlisted, relieved of duty, retarded, or retired, I don't know of one who's been retreaded.

TexasRifleman
August 13, 2009, 01:31 PM
And we should not overlook the legality of his inquiry. He says that HE wants to own a firearm, which is, strictly speaking, illegal.

Certainly, but the parent may very well say "I'll buy a gun for you to use but I don't know anything about them, let me know what to get".

That's what mine did. I'm not sure my father knows which end of a firearm is the dangerous end, but that didn't stop him from buying guns for me to use, making sure I was instructed in their use, and allowing me to use them both supervised and unsupervised without breaking any laws at all.

There's an awful lot of jumping to conclusions going on here about the motives of the poster.

Sure it's always possible someone will come on an Internet forum and talk about guns, then go on a rampage.

If we are going to worry about that possible outcome every time we discuss firearms we might as well close the place down and delete our accounts.

That's always a possibility.

Let us not also forget that this "14 year old" is posting on the internet in THE MIDDLE OF THE DAY. Many school systems across the country started back earlier this week, though admittedly there are some that won't go back until as late as Sept.


Good Lord. Texas schools all start on the same day, August 24th.

Some of you are acting more like 14 year olds than the 14 year old.

Quoheleth
August 13, 2009, 01:35 PM
Mosin. Seriously.

A) Rate of fire is slow, but if the flying fertilizer gets DEEP, you have range & knockdown power on your side.
B) Cost: $80 for the rifle; Spam can of 400 rounds ammo $80. Cheap to own, practice and squirrel away for bad days.
B1) While ammo may not be as common as .270, that might be on your side. While the common calibers are being sought out, less common stuff may be available. C.f., folks haven't had a problem finding 9mm Makarov or .357 Sig during the ammo crisis.
B2) Should you decide to reload, .30 cal bullets are relatively easy to find.
C) I suspect Mosins will be below the radar in any future gun ban.
D) Bayonet will be useful for shishkebabs, spear fishing, a tent spike, or a remote control if your batteries die

My thoughts...in fact, these reasons are why I am considering picking one up sooner than later.
Q

fireman 9731
August 13, 2009, 01:39 PM
There is nothing illegal about telling someone how to convert a Saiga- especially when you can buy a normal configuration AK at almost any gun store across the country.

The kid wants to learn, there are plenty of other worse things he could be doing instead.

I wondered about the same things when I was 14.

TexasRifleman
August 13, 2009, 01:39 PM
don't understand what you mean norinco....

It is illegal to give money to your dad for him to buy you a gun.

He can buy you one as a gift, he can buy it for himself and let you use it. He could even sell it to you when you are 17 (long gun) but strictly speaking giving someone else the money to buy you a gun is illegal. It's called a "straw purchase".

It's silly to think that it applies to a parent/child relationship, but it does.

Yes, it's probably done all the time, a kid mows the lawn and saves his money to buy a .22, but it's still technically illegal, so be careful.

jakemccoy
August 13, 2009, 01:44 PM
And we should not overlook the legality of his inquiry. He says that HE wants to own a firearm, which is, strictly speaking, illegal.


Please cite the law that says it would be illegal in his state to possess a rifle.

Threads would be way more useful if each poster would do research before posting something about the law.

The kid seems logical enough to do everything within the law.

TexasRifleman
August 13, 2009, 01:48 PM
Please cite the law that says it would be illegal in his state to own a rifle.

I was gonna post all those, just for reference here.

Texas 46.13. "Child" for purposes of this is anyone under 17.

(b) A person commits an offense if a child gains access to a readily dischargeable firearm and the person with criminal negligence:
(1) failed to secure the firearm; or
(2) left the firearm in a place to which the person knew or should have known the child would gain access.
(c) It is an affirmative defense to prosecution under this section that the child's access to the firearm:
(1) was supervised by a person older than 18 years of age and was for hunting, sporting, or other lawful purposes;
(2) consisted of lawful defense by the child of people or property;
(3) was gained by entering property in violation of this code; or
(4) occurred during a time when the actor was engaged in an agricultural enterprise.

travellingJeff
August 13, 2009, 01:48 PM
I'm seriously embarrassed at the behavior of some people in this thread.


Gun ownership isn't some magical privilege that the guy on the Internet who knows the most rules and can preach the longest gets to have, it's an inalienable right. The kid should get a nice firearm and learn to use it. Ignore all the Pontiff's of the Art on here, unless they somehow decide to leave and proselytize elsewhere.



OP, talk with your parents about purchasing a firearm as a "gift". All of these idiotic damned laws are completely illegal, it's an inalienable right for you to own a firearm, despite what the "Patriot Light" types on here say. Follow whatever idiotic, un-Constitutional and illegal laws exists in your state and pick up a nice semi-automatic battle rifle. You're a big boy so you'll be able to handle it well. Learn the four rules of gun safety before ya ever touch the trigger and you'll be doing yourself a big favor. And remember, with awesome power comes awesome responsibility. Letting one of your immature friends talk you into taking the firearm out and doing something infantile with it could end you up in jail, in the wood shed with your father and the board of education, crying over a friends dead body or dead yourself. Owning a large caliber firearm is part of being a man. Don't let the "specific individuals" on here talk you out of it. Feel free to shoot me a PM if you'd like something other than unwarranted attacks on your integrity.


Those that are attacking his integrity should, in my humble opinion, hop on over to 4chan or something where it'd much more appropriate. A growing boy is turning into a man and deserves to be treated as such. If it comes out that he's a liar, thats on him, but to call him that with no proof is about as ignoble and trashy as I can imagine. It's actions like that that makes me wish dueling were still legal, those that like to bandy about insults and harassment would quickly find out that words have consequences.


Moderators, do you feel that insulting the integrity of a young man coming to age and wanting to help his family is "high road" etiquette? I got a warning for stating "in before the lock" on a thread, that seems to pale in comparison to questioning the integrity of a young man.





I sure wish I'd been alive about a hundred years ago, I think I'd have fit in much better.


Regards,

CoRoMo
August 13, 2009, 01:49 PM
Posted by the OP
none of the guns I "own" are mine. I saved the money for them a d gave my dad the money and he bought the gun.
Posted by Norinco
That would be illegal
Response by the OP
don't understand what you mean norinco....

You just admitted that a number of straw purchases have been conducted by you and your father. That's illegal. With the ATF sniffing around Texas, and other border states, on the hunt for straw purchases, this isn't something you want to be posting on the internet.

TexasRifleman
August 13, 2009, 01:51 PM
You just admitted that a number of straw purchases have been conducted by you and your father. It's illegal. With the ATF sniffing around Texas and other border states, this isn't something you want to be posting on the internet.

Unfortunately that's about right. Never understood why that straw purchase mess should apply to a minor child/parent relationship.

I'm not even sure it would hold up in court or be of any interest to LE, never seen it applied to a minor child/parent, but still illegal by statute.

jakemccoy
August 13, 2009, 01:53 PM
TexasRifleman,

I believe there is no law in Texas that makes it illegal for a 14 year old to possess a rifle.

All the chest pounding about the law is out of place here. Sure there are some laws to consider, but maybe provide a link in one post and then just leave it there.

Regards,
-Jake

CoRoMo
August 13, 2009, 01:53 PM
TR...

I know, it's absurd.

TexasRifleman
August 13, 2009, 01:56 PM
I believe there is no law in Texas that makes it illegal for a 14 year old to possess a rifle.

I think there is some crap in the family code about it, I'm trying to find it.

Not in the penal code though, just the parent is in trouble in the penal code.

I read about this a while back, I'm trying to find the exact law. It only applied to having the firearm without parental permission though if I remember, so doesn't really apply to this case.

All the chest pounding about the law is out of place here. Sure there are some laws to consider, but maybe provide a link in one post and then just leave it there.

Well, the father could be in violation of the law so it is certainly applicable to the discussion. But you are right, there is no specific law saying a 14 year old can't be in possession of a rifle. None at all.

Owen
August 13, 2009, 02:15 PM
When I was 14, I kept an AR-15 by my bed, and was closing fast on NRA Master Classification in High Power and smallbore. If you think the OP sounds too mature and eloquent to be a 14 year old, maybe you should consider why the 14 year-olds you know don't sound like this...

Younggunner, the guns you have are already quite potent with some training. I suggest you learn how to run that 20 gauge and Bolt Gun. Neither one is anything to sneeze at. Spend some money on ammo, some targets, and a few DVDs.

Higher speed weapons are nice to have, but without experience and training, they are probably even less effective than the basic weapons you already have. With the money you could spend on a more "tactical" gun, you could put quite a few rounds downrange, and develop quite a bit of skill.

I think Clint Smith from Thunder Ranch has at least one video out about running the gun you have.

rbernie
August 13, 2009, 02:20 PM
My 14yr old is six foot tall and 240lbs large. He just started to learn to shoot, and is very keenly interested in selecting and owning his own firearms. I do not see how this is inappropriate in the least. Anyone who wants to chime in and make demeaning comments about the viability of this thread can expect a beating with the Mod BanStick - I'll not tolerate any more rudeness either from those who would goad Younggunner or from Younggunner in response.

Y'all need to stay on track and stay civil.

Please.

This is a reasonable question, despite the dramatic 'SHTF' language initially used. I have edited the title of the thread to make a bit more palatable to THR.

Younggunner
August 13, 2009, 02:23 PM
Thanks Bernie.
Any suggestions then how to avoid this happening again? Like how to post without getting crucified?

LeverGunJunkie
August 13, 2009, 02:26 PM
TravellingJeff and a few others have sounded the right tone on this one, and kudos to you on that gents.

Frankly the way some of you guys are jumping on this kid and questioning his integrity is pretty despicable. You are probably the same type of jerks that live in the local gun stores and look down your noses at newbies who are in there in search of information; instead of welcoming them into the gun owning community with open arms. Probably scared the kid off; or at a minimum gave him a bad taste in his mouth after he politely (and intelligently) solicited info from the "experts" :scrutiny: on THR.

As to his credibility, his whole story is plausible. Is he a the victim of an active imagination? Maybe. But I was 14 or 15 when I first saw Red Dawn and had similar, if not more imaginative thoughts than this. I also "owned" 4 guns when I was 14; including a Mini-14.

As to the poster who said something to the effect that a 14 yr old should be more into girls than guns....let him make that judgement. He'll probably get into less trouble turning his interest to a productive hobby than chicks. No need to rush that.

Threads like this point out the gross over-estimation I made into the level of class posters exhibit on this forum.:barf:

rbernie
August 13, 2009, 02:33 PM
Any suggestions then how to avoid this happening again? Like how to post without getting crucified? The 'shtf' drama in the original post was simply a trigger for lots of subsequent guffawing and scoffing. THR has a very low tolerance for EndOfTheWorld fantasies, because they are just that - fantasies. While some folk did not react as well as I would have liked to your queries, I can understand why they did so.

If you have questions, phrase them in terms that are common and understandable. For example, my kid has asked me - "what firearm would I want to have if somebody tried to hurt my mom while we're home alone?". That is a question that he and I can discuss, both from a mindset and approach as well as from an equipment perspective.

Had he asked me about zombies or SHTF scenarios, I likely woulda just smacked him upside the back of the head. :)

Younggunner
August 13, 2009, 02:38 PM
Thanks levergun, that shows me now that not everyone on this site is a jerk. That helps a lot. Anyway. What did you think of that mini 14? Maybe the one I shot was a dud. But who knows. And apparently I should go see red dawn for the first time...

Younggunner
August 13, 2009, 02:39 PM
Hahaha ok Bernie. I like my shotgun for protecting my mom and sister though. :-)

Norinco982lover
August 13, 2009, 02:45 PM
Have you looked into SKS's at all? Those are the "affordable" battle rifle... I do like mine...but since I want to try my hand at Saiga's and can't afford to keep both I am selling mine.

~Norinco

LeverGunJunkie
August 13, 2009, 02:48 PM
Red Dawn defined the thoughts of a generation... well, may be over-stating that, but all my peers in the Army were most definitely influenced by that flick.

When I was 14, the Mini-14 was the coolest thing out there. I was probably around your height then (maybe a tad taller), and it fit me pretty well. The Mini-14 is a short rifle with (IMO) a shorter comb. As I grew taller, my arms grew too long for the length of pull the rifle offered. I could not get a consistant cheek weld, or proper sight picture. This led to a discouraging level of inaccuracy. Getting used to 'peep' sights took some time as well.

I think the rifle itself is a solid piece. Reliable, digests anything I put in it, and was reasonably accurate for most applications (until I grew out of it). I sold it off about 10 years ago. Mainly b/c I wanted to scope it, but I didn't have the Ranch Rifle variant, and none of the scope mounts were reliable at the time.

As to your original question, a Marlin 1894C .357 would be a good choice for you; but I don't think your M1 Carbine choice is a bad one. My Dad carried one in Korea and beyond, and spoke glowingly of it.

Geno
August 13, 2009, 02:51 PM
YG said:

I currently own a remington 870 in 20 gauge and i have a remington 270 700 adl bolt rifle. i would like a nice semi auto to use.

My suggestion, invest your money in ammo and simply practice with what you own. You already possess two excellent and practical firearms. IMHO, there is no other weapon that is so effective and so efficient as a shotgun for home defense...none. The Remington 700 ADL in .270 Win, what more needs to be said?! Sakes alive! That is (IMHO) an extraordinary rifle/chambering! You have your bases covered for hunting, target shooting and defense if ever needed.

Geno

Younggunner
August 13, 2009, 02:53 PM
Yes I've looked at the sks, but if I'm going to get a semi auto rifle, I want a rifle that isn't longer than my deer rifle. The ranch rifle looks good but it's really expensive, the saiga looks great but all the upgrades will take a long time for me to get the money, so it's either the m1 carbine or an ak 47 (Romanian)

DMK
August 13, 2009, 02:55 PM
The M1 carbine is not considered accurate over long distances. I'm not experienced with either type of gun, but I doubt it's going to be more accurate than most AKs that are functioning properly.
Just my 2 cents --- I would not be getting a M1 carbine - it is a little underpowered , not very accurate over 50 yards or so , and finding ammo for it could be hard.Where are you guys getting this from? Or maybe I should ask, what do you consider accurate? An M1 carbine should be just as accurate, if not better than an SKS, Saiga AK or Mini-14. Mine shoots very well.

As far as stopping power, it will do quite well out to at least 100 yards with SP ammo.

Younggunner
August 13, 2009, 02:57 PM
One of my other neighbors is a Korea vet. His right hand has the thumb and index finger gone. He was issued a carbine, but he was a machine gunner so he didn't use It much. He said it had good killing power when his partner was relaoding the browning, I think it was.

Fred Fuller
August 13, 2009, 03:12 PM
Daniel,

So far you've come across as a lot more mature than some of your detractors here. Please don't lose the high ground... or The High Road. Even if sometimes the place might fall short of its name, we're trying. Hang in there.

As for Mini-14s, I personally don't care for 'em. I'd rather have an AR for a 5.56 carbine. Good magazines are a hassle for Minis, and they tend to develop wandering zeros as they heat up. I understand there have been some changes in newer models, but I haven't used a Mini since the 182 series, so I don't know if they have fixed that major issue or not.

AKs are useful, but I like ARs better. Maybe because I have more experience with them, as much as anything else. I just find ARs easier to hit with. True, AKs are less expensive. But price isn't everything.

Anyone who can afford a Mini (or a good M-1 carbine), can IMHO pretty much afford a decent AR with only a little more effort. The frenzy provoked by the recent election seems to be slowing down some.

Stag makes a mirror image left handed AR- see the company website at http://www.stagarms.com/ for more information. They make good ARs. And magazines and accessories are a lot more available for AR platforms as well. If you have your heart set on a carbine, that's as good a choice as any.

And I mean carbine, whether you get a 16" or a 20" barrel- it's a carbine caliber IMO no matter what barrel length it comes out of. Even so, I think it has enough advantages to make it a worthwhile consideration. If I didn't think so, I wouldn't have sent my wife to Louis Awerbuck's carbine class as a birthday present a couple of years ago, and given her a new AR carbine to go with it. The nice thing about the AR platform is that it is pretty easily managed by broad range of shooters, from 14-year-olds to 60-something university professor types like my wife.

Around here in rural SE NC, what lots of folks generally depend on for defensive long guns are pump shotguns. But there is always one AR carbine outside the safe in this house as well, when we are at home. We live way out in the country, and the only deputy on duty might well be on the far side of the county if we needed help. People around here are as a rule prepared to take care of themselves, the way rural folks are most anywhere in the country. It isn't the way things would be in a perfect world, but it will be a while before we achieve perfection here on the third rock.

It's for your parents to decide what responsibilities you're ready to assume and when- not mine. I hope they have instilled in you a full appreciation for the level of responsibility that goes with handling any firearm. If not, it's pretty much up to you to seek out your own education yourself, and to find and develop mentors to help you along your way. Have you had your state's hunter safety class yet, for example? It's a good start, and I encourage anyone at any stage of their shooting career to take it if they haven't had it at least once already.

I wish you the best of luck,

lpl

SwordRapier
August 13, 2009, 03:15 PM
I don't own a M1 Carbine. I would like to own a M1 carbine. Because, I do not own a M1 carbine please take what I have to say with a grain of salt.

I have done some research on the M1 carbine. I am a writer and a game designer so I have to do a bit of research. There were some Marines in the south Pacific during WW II that complained that the M1 Carbine was underpowered but, consider the other weapon option. They were comparing it to the M1 Garand which is a 30.06. In comparison the 30.06 is going has more stopping power.

That being said, it penetrated helmets and light body armor just fine. Is the .30 carbine as potent as the 30.06 or the .308. No, but it really doesn't need to be. Lets face it, there are some folks out there that would complain that a Barrett light 50 is underpowered.

Inevitably if someone post on this forum asking about a gun they want to purchase someone chimes in and says that that gun is underpowered and inaccurate. It's as constant as the northern star.

Younggunner
August 13, 2009, 03:40 PM
Mr. Lee- thankyou for the input, yes I've taken the safety course. And with stag arms if I got an ar-15 I would get a stag, it was the first type of assault rifle I held at cabelas when I started shooting... But hopefully the stag will come along when I have a car and get a job. For right now though. I would rather get the m1 carbine just because of the sights over the ak, and better barrel than the mini 14. But if I had the money, or my dad was willing to spend 1k on an ar-15 I would own one right now. I love my shotgun, and I'm quite lethal with it at 25-50 yards... At least that's what the hogs tell me. Thankyou for that though. I never though of the ar-15. But when the m1 carbine at the pawn shop is 430 with a nice sling in two 15 shot clips, out the door. And the ar-15 is about $1100 out the door. The m1 looks real attractive.

Art Eatman
August 13, 2009, 04:08 PM
I've owned four Mini-14s. I'm on my fifth AR, now. I've owned a couple of GI M1 Carbines in the past and now am content with the one my father carried on D-Day and on through France.

I always stuck a Weaver K4 on my Minis, and they're plenty good for jack rabbits and coyotes to 150 or 200 yards. No problem. Of course, one shot doesn't heat up a barrel. Once a fella has figured out what brand of magazine works, testing a few then creates reliability. And a Mini will give minute-of-torso accuracy all day long. Same basic deal for most any AR, SFAIK. It's one of those deals about which it's difficult for me to get excited.

The GI Carbine is certainly adequately accurate for defensive use. It's no bench rest beauty, but so what? The bullet from GI ammo isn't the world's most effective, but the Good Lord invented handloading as a cure for that. There are several good options, but I'm not gonna give a short course in lethality. :D

Personal opinion, but I'd rather have a 20-gauge 870 than a single-shot 12. (Note to self: Quit procrastinating and install the 20" cylinder-bore barrel on the Model 12 12-gauge. Practice playing the slide trombone.)

But discussion with parents is a Good Thing. Bad stuff can happen when they're home, and it's nice for the backup folks to be coordinated for The Plan If...

Quoheleth
August 13, 2009, 04:43 PM
If you can get that M1 Carbine for five bills (TT&L, so to speak) out the door, that's a pretty good deal.

If you want to go AR, a lower-cost but still high-quality AR is made by Doublestar. Centerfire Systems is selling them in different variations for $800, shipped. (FYI, that's even cheaper than Budsgunshop.com who is famous for low prices.) Too, I'll give Centerfire an attaboy - even with all of the hype of the gun rush the past 8 months, they kept their AR prices low. When I bought mine last November (2 weeks after O-day), sticker was $699. I called a month later to see how high their prices had climbed, fearing I was going ot have to hock body parts, and was pleased to hear it had gone up only a little - and that was passing on their cost increase from DS. The AR I was eventually shipped was @ $780 and that included 2 xtra mags and some "extras" I didn't want, but it was a "take it or leave it" package deal.

As to the quality of the weapon, it shoots great for me. Fifty yard kills of clay pigeons are no problem. One of these days, when it cools off a little, I'll do some shooting at longer ranges to see how it works. I might even throw an inexpensive scope on it for precision.

My point is that the Doublestar is in the same ballpark as a new Mini-14. It's all spec, so it can be upgraded or changed as you want.

Just an option...
Q

PS. FWIW, I "owned" a .22 by the time I was in 8th grade and added a Mossberg 500 20 ga. and Savage 110 in .270 before I graduated HS. My best friend and I subscribed to the gun rags, read 'em, and swapped 'em. We collected empty brass and argued over ballistic tables and charts. This was pre-16. Now that I'm 35, I still do all the same, except with adults. And I don't have to get Dad to buy the guns and ammo for me. I just gotta ask my wife. :o

Gunfighter123
August 13, 2009, 05:30 PM
Hello YoungGunner,
If you can get a M1 Carbine for $430 and the barrel is not "shot out" , that is a very good deal !!!
Price ammo for it and check to see that it is easy to get. Sooner or later YOU WILL START to reload your own ammo ---- I started to reload when I was around your age and I have reloaded close to a MILLION rounds of handgun/shotgun and rifle ammo by now.
Again , my old 2 cents --- if it were ME , I would get a WASR/Saiga AK type firearm for almost the same money as the M1 Carbine you are looking at. The sights CAN BE upgraded for around $50 anytime you choose to and the 7.62X39 is more powerfull then the .30Carb. but has about the same amount of recoil.

TO THE MODS ------ a BIG THANK YOU for stepping in and putting a end to the silly and mean replies to this young man. I do TRUELY HOPE in the future , that some of our members will remember what it is like to be " a youngster " and have a love of firearms and a thirst for knowldge/safety.

hso
August 13, 2009, 06:19 PM
Assuming a 5'8" 200lb 14 year old is this articulate as opposed to someone pretending to be a young teen, he should seriously discuss this with his family. What he's proposed is an illegal straw purchase and has serious legal implications. OTOH, his father may give a rifle to him legally as a gift, even if it is a reward for hard work around the house (or just "because").

From a practical side, anyone should price what an M1 carbine and the mods suggested. Price the ammunition as well that is needed to expend learning to shoot it. Consider a half a case (500rnds) for calculation purposes. Compare that to an AK or AR and their ammunition. Most would probably abandon the M1 just on cost compared to the others (unless anyone knows where to find good milsurp M1 carbines for 1990's prices).

I didn't read about a .22 being in the list of firearms in the family. A good semiauto .22 is nearly essential in many people's eyes for good reason. Least of which is the inexpensive shooting it affords. Best is that it allows you to spend time learning to shoot well.

Other rifles? There's the AK camp and the AR camp and the Lever gun camp. They all have merits in their suggestions.

Younggunner
August 13, 2009, 06:36 PM
I do have a nice marlin semi auto 22. And with the ar-15 there are lefty stags on gunsamerica.com for 800 so I think that's a decent price. With a saiga I can get either a 223 or 7.62 for $400 in my area+ all modifications which will put me at 600-700. The m1 will put me at 570 for the whole deal. (new stock, metal vent handgaurd, magazines, ammo)

BullfrogKen
August 13, 2009, 08:06 PM
I have a bit of time behind the M-16/AR-15 system from my time in the Marines. And I still believe in accuracy and that every Marine is a rifleman first.

But I don't personally own an AR. Never have. I've had an M1A, and today my "battle rifle" is a Romanian AK in 7.62x39. Five or so years ago I went through an Insights Defensive Rifle class with it. There's nothing "wrong" with those sights. That rifle is good enough. Or as it's been said, "perfection is the enemy of good enough".

The others in the class had AR's. I kept up quite well in both the speed drill competitions and the long range drills. An AK will work just fine. Relatively inexpensive, both the rifle and the ammo, and it'll do just find at defensive distances.


I like the M1 carbine, too. But I'm not good enough to know how to tell if the one at a pawn shop is still in good working order or not. But if it were, I'd be hard pressed to let a good one get away at a good price.


You could always continue saving and get that left handed AR. We've had one here in Study Group built by Stag Arms, and it's a good rifle. Look at it as an investment. It'll always be special to you, and 50 years later you'll have fond memories of how you saved up to get it.

JWF III
August 13, 2009, 08:08 PM
I'm seriously embarrassed at the behavior of some people in this thread.


Ditto

Yet folks suggest that he sit around and play video games?
Better to strap on that hypothetical 80 pound pack and go hiking on that hypothetical ranch. Not to be rude or anything; but at that young age and high BMI ratio, I'd be more concerned with diabetes or heart disease taking me out long before I would any shtf scenario.


What is that old saying about making assuptions?

He said he played football. He could be in very good shape. Generally speaking, height to weight ratio has little to do with health. Body fat percentage has a great deal to do with it. When I was 15-22, I was the same hieght/ weight as the OP. For much of that time period I ran the 40 yd in 4.9 sec. in full pads. Bench pressed 350+, and squated 480+. The above qoute sounds just like someone talking out of the wrong hole. Very similar to doctors "rules" that generalize too much, and take an individual into account too little.

Referring to the whole "straw purchase" dibocle, any DA would have a very hard time getting a conviction in front of a jury. There are things called gifts, many fathers give gifts to their sons/daughters all the time. I still have quite a few gifts that my dad gave me (as young as 8) that I saved up enough money for half of the "toy".

Referring to the comments about the lack of maturity, just more assumptions. Each individual should be treated as such. I grew up shooting, by myself, after school. If the parents trust the child enough, there is a reason, you should trust that they're making the right decision.

As far as the OP question, I'm kind of partial to the Mini series of carbines. An M1 Carbine would also make a very good choice. And in todays world, the carbine is cheaper to shoot than the .223/5.56. (Sportsmans Guide prices as of 1900 hrs 08/13/09 in stock prices only, 1000 rnds .30 Carbine Rem. UMC= $427 ($.427 per round). 900 rnds .223 Fed AE=$470 ($.52 per round). 1000 rnds 5.56 Prvi (62 gr. SS109)=$560 ($.56 per round).) Any where from $.09-$.13 per round cheaper to go with the carbine. Even if you choose a Saiga in .223 and compared it to a CMP Carbine, you'd come out better with the Carbine at about 2500 rounds or one year with sufficient range time. And CMP can get the ammo price down to $310 per 1k ($.31 per round, savings of $.21-$.25 per round). At that price you'd break even at about 1.5k rounds.

Wyman

gondorian
August 13, 2009, 08:17 PM
From my experience, the M1 carbine points VERY nicely, and is plenty accurate. (shot a couple 1-1.5in. 5 shot groups at 50 yds prone) If I could get one for that price I would do it. It might also be a good idea to reconsider the SKS if you are on a budget.

LJ-MosinFreak-Buck
August 13, 2009, 08:36 PM
Younggunner, I'm sorry that many of the "Old Farts;)" are picking on you for your age, I'm 19. It's your decision. Do what you feel is right. I would suggest a cheap AK because ammo is cheap if you use surplus (around 150 bucks for 500 rounds from cheaper than dirt) and it's a nice, dependable weapon.

For you nay-sayers, give the kid a break, he wants to learn, and he wants to be able to protect his family should an event like that take place. The world is going to :cuss: and there's not too much we can do but sit back and watch. Yeah, we vote, but sometimes the outcome isn't favorable. It's his choice on what he wants to do, and it's his choice to decide whether or not he's ready for that kind of situation. But what he's doing right now is coming to us for support. He wants to be supported by others, and I believe we should give him the support.

LJ-MF-BUCK

Larry Ashcraft
August 13, 2009, 08:47 PM
Everybody should own an M1 Carbine just for the cool factor. Mine is a collectible Winchester and is worth considerably more than a cheap AR. However, there are recently made examples that aren't too expensive (Universal?).

I also have a Mini-14 and I have no trouble putting ten out of ten shots on a 10" gong at 200 yards, time after time, hot barrel or not.

Anyway, Younggunner, welcome to THR. And I applaud your ability to articulate well, be proud of it. That was once a given in this country, just a generation ago, but sadly things have changed. Nice to know there are still some articulate young ones among us (actually I already knew that, my daughter is a teacher).

Erik M
August 13, 2009, 08:49 PM
I would go large caliber automatic pistol.

Greybeard7
August 13, 2009, 09:25 PM
Younggunner:

I've only briefly perused this thread, but I would like to point something out that I don't think has been mentioned before. (Please excuse me if I'm wrong.)

I think it's pertinent to your discussion to realize that the M1 Carbine, while very comfortable to shoot, and handy in close quarters, was introduced to replace the 1911A1 pistol for cooks and clerks. The .30 caliber M1 carbine round is not that much more powerful than a pistol round.

I understand and recognize that many deer have been taken with this round, and it is a wonderful weapon, and was used very effectively in WWII.

However, if you really check the ballistics on the round you will find that there are handguns that will deliver close to the performance of the .30 carbine.

Now, whether you prefer a long gun over a pistol, or you are anticipating shots over 25 yards, that could change the equation. (Also, due to your age, the legal aspects of a handgun over a long gun need to be considered.)

Just my $0.02 worth.

GB7

travellingJeff
August 13, 2009, 09:58 PM
Young Gunner - Here's my abridged list of recommendations.


Buy Red Dawn on DVD. Watch it until the DVD melts. Buy another copy, watch it until it melts. Repeat as necessary. Make your friends watch it. Incorporate such sayings as "AVENGE ME BOYS! AVENGE ME!" into your daily vernacular. :-)

Then, buy, rent or borrow "To Hell and Back", the story of one Audie Murphy. I won't give away anything about it, but it's a FANTASTIC movie.

After you watch "To Hell and Back", you'll be DROOLING over the thought that you can own a M1 Garand! Not some commie throw-back, not some peasant rifle, but a real-deal, made in the 40's (or whenever), "Grampa killed Nazi's with it!" US M1 .30 Caliber Service Rifle. Join the Garand Collectors Association and purchase a Service Grade M1 Garand from the CMP (www.odcmp.org). Son, I promise you that once you've got that Garand in your hands, you'll never think about some el cheapo commie gun again. And you'll KNOW what Audie Murphy did with his and you'll KNOW that it's the mindset, skillset and finally, tool set that makes a warrior. You'll have the weapon that Murphy used, so you'll know that the rest of it is up to you! Learn to use that Garand, learn it's sights, put a nice leather shooting sling on it. Purchase the M1 Garand video's from Fulton Armory and become a MASTER with your M1 Garand. That's about the biggest step that a young man of your age can take towards man-hood. The biggest step that doesn't involve a young female, that is, and that's probably not High Road appropriate. ;-)

Welcome aboard, son, and good job acting like a duck and letting the water run right off your back.

Nematocyst
August 13, 2009, 10:42 PM
... good job acting like a duck and letting the water run right off your back. Man, no kidding. YG, you've taken the high road through some stuff being slung in your direction. Good job.

BullfrogKen
August 13, 2009, 11:42 PM
Welcome aboard, son, and good job acting like a duck and letting the water run right off your back.

I totally agree. There's been a lot of nonsense in this thread about your youth. It seems that on the internet people forget their manners, and lose sight of the fact that there are real people behind the keyboard.

You've displayed quite a bit of maturity throughout all the condescension aimed your way. I'm proud of ya, and think both your approach and response here serves quite the good example.

Younggunner
August 13, 2009, 11:51 PM
Thankyou to everyone that helped me out on this thread and with my choice.
Greybeard- I was already aware of the fact that it was made for replacement of the 1911. And that people in Korea disliked it for bad stopping power. I'm half Korean and Ive been there in the winter. It would not surprise me that not all the gun powder went off in that cold weather.
I think that as of now, I will try for the m1 and if it gets sold from that pawn shop before I have the money, then I'll get an ak... But I'll get an American gun before the commy gun. :-)
thanks
Daniel

BullfrogKen
August 14, 2009, 12:02 AM
When you get a little older (or with your parent's permission) you can rent another movie.


Full Metal Jacket.


The "communists" are learning capitalism. I'll alter the quote a bit to make it more high road . . . but from the movie I quote:

Inside of every communist is an American trying to get out.

Romania is learning about free markets. The AK design is sound. It's really pretty brilliant. This coming from a Marine. None of us feel bad owning a Mauser design bolt rifle. Good designs are good designs. And Romanians are no longer behind the Iron Curtain.

Younggunner
August 14, 2009, 12:13 AM
Hahaha my dad says wait till I'm 18 for that one.

travellingJeff
August 14, 2009, 12:56 AM
That's the kind of "R Rated" movie that young men should see :-)


Also, a quick suggestion. In your signature, perhaps you might take the time to capitalize the "M" in "Marines". We appreciate that, no hard feelings though.

Good luck with your Romanian AK, once you've got it you'll have a wealth of information here at your fingertips, ask and yee shall receive.


Although I still vote for the M1 Garand :-) Buy one while the CMP still has 'em, compare the CMP prices, when they had the M1903, to the private sector M1903's. You'll hand your Garand down to your grandchild, for sure.


Best,

Jeff

hso
August 14, 2009, 07:29 AM
If you can purchase a good condition milsurp M1 carbine for $430 AND it has a good barrel, that is an excellent deal. I wouldn't hesitate to buy it.

OTOH, if the primary issue with an AK is the sights, those can be easily upgraded with one of the mojo peep sights.

If that carbine is one of the more desirable manufacturers (Winchester, National Postal Meter, Rockolla, etc.) it could be a good investment. It could be worth more to a collector than a good AR. That might make it a wise family investment.

Norinco982lover
August 14, 2009, 09:28 AM
I have mojo peep sights on my Mosin...they are brilliant! You can just change out the rear sights if you would like.

~Norinco

SwordRapier
August 14, 2009, 01:58 PM
Greaybeard7 You forgot to mention that for many paratroopers, forward observers, marines, officers, and artillerymen the M1 carbine was the weapon of choice.

You are correct about pistol rounds having similar ballistics. I have read that the .327 is almost identical ballisticallly to the 30 carbine.

TEDDY
August 14, 2009, 02:43 PM
remember the chinese wore very heavy coats to keep the cold out.and the russians used the 30 mauser because it penitrated the heavy coats of the germans.:rolleyes::uhoh:

ccsniper
August 17, 2009, 05:09 PM
just noticed these

http://www.centerfiresystems.com/sai-545.aspx

or
http://www.centerfiresystems.com/SAI-762.aspx

http://www.centerfiresystems.com/SAI-223.aspx

earlthegoat2
August 17, 2009, 06:01 PM
that 20 gauge seems alright to me

However you word it there are plenty of youths in this country that "own" guns or have guns that are "theirs". Technicalities aside lets just say they are all owned by his guardian then we can stop bickering semantics.

ChCx2744
August 17, 2009, 08:56 PM
I, also, do not believe you are 14 years old. Not to sound harsh, but it sounds like an attention seeking tactic...Tell me I am wrong, but you all know that is the truth. Either way, take what you read here and learn from it. It is smart of you to ask and research before you try to make any purchases, but you don't have to mask your identity...Especially in a way that will attract attention that is not positive...Just ask from an anonymous standpoint..You could have just as easily started this thread without stating your age. You could have just asked about the guns and left the age part out...Kinda like this:

good day everybody
i'm looking for a good all around gun for ranch use and defense if needed.
I currently own a remington 870 in 20 gauge and i have a remington 270 700 adl bolt rifle. i would like a nice semi auto to use. the fact that i am left handed seems to be the biggest problem but with my 270 i have learned to shoot right handed. i'm currently looking into an m1 carbine and that seems like a good gun and since i'm paying out of my own pocket, the price won't kill me. i can't afford an ar 15 but are there any other good semi's that would fit the bill??
Thanks
Daniel
^That is all you had to write and you would not have gotten questionable responses.

There is no need for that piece of information and now your credibility is being questioned.

content
August 20, 2009, 11:54 AM
http://RURALHD Hello friends and neighbors,//Youngunner, I commend your informed, non impulse buying practices.// Like you I grew up using the 870 wingmaster pump shotgun.// IMHO the match for your 870 in trigger pull, action, cleaning ... is the 760(or newer model) pump rifle, this comes in 270cal. and may match your 700 bolt ammo. You can also get 10 round metal mags ./// These are my personel choices// 870 wingmaster 12ga. 7 plus 1, 760 gamemaster 30.06 4 plus 1, S&W 586 Distinguished Combat revolver 357/38 6 shot 6 inch barrel , Stoger Luger 22.lr 4 inch barrel 10 plus 1//// The 760 has night glow fiber optic rear ramp sight (this rifle will not cycle ammo like the ak,sks,mini 14 but is the twin of the 870 you are used to. I believe the 4 inch stoger 22.lr is still legal to carry in the national forests on sunday.// The only thing I left out of pic is necessary for low cost shooting, my 795 marlin syn. 22.lr , always a great learning, teaching, small game getting tool // Hope you enjoy this site as I do, content

Younggunner
August 20, 2009, 07:30 PM
Hmm I didn't think about a pump rifle? I've heard they can be a bit on the pricier side.

content
August 20, 2009, 08:49 PM
Hi friends and neighbors, // Youngunner , I do not mean to change your thread.// I was in the same fix and decided having a rifle, with a trigger pull, action,and cleaning, exactly like the gun i was currently using suited my brain the best in quick action situations.//( beware of the man with one gun.. he probably knows how to use it theory)// As for price online they are $485.00used plus tax and transfer but I'm to cheap for that. I looked in Penn. this summer(lots of them up there) but still to high $450.00 -$550.00 used. I think Dicks sports has them (7600) new for $619.00 in N.C... // I finally found one used in a gun shop for $280.00, grumbled about the dirty barrel and got it for $250.00// after cleaning, barrel is like a miror and front sight rub from rifle bag is only ding/// Free hand, standing in woods, pull up pump and shoot, iron sights, 50 strides, say 40 yards(I don't have a 3foot stride in the woods) shot a 4 inch group// so I'd say the barrel is ok at least// I waited for the right deal for me.....I hope you find the right deal for you.// As for semi autos +1 for M1 Garand good hunting ,,content

Younggunner
August 20, 2009, 09:26 PM
Ok thankyou very much. They are building a dicks near me and it'll be done in a few months so that could give me some more variety.

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