[retiredsgt]

I went to the Roanoke Gun Show on this past Saturday.
There seems to be a larger nos.of those "Roosian" made
shotguns there. I stopped at a booth run by the "Sons of
Confederate Veterans" and they were selling various items.
They had several fancy knives that had pictures of various
Confederate Generals on them. I picked one up, to look at
it, as it had a photo of Generals Lee and Jackson on it. I
noticed that it was made in China(The People's Republic).
At a table, two members of this group were selling chances
on a shotgun, a copy of a Winchester Model 97, which
was also made in China. I asked them if they couldn't
find an American gun to raffle off, and they said that the
Norinco shotgun was "rare" as the U.S.Government had
stopped ALL imports from China. I told them if that were
so, Wal-Mart would close its doors.
Where are we headed?? I refuse to buy anything made
in China, and shall never buy one of those "Roosian" guns.:cuss:

[Devonai]

Well, some of us do have our political objections, and that's understandible.

However, Saiga and Norinco do seem to be turning out good products, and a bargain is just as much an American tradition as xenophobia! :neener:

[4v50 Gary]

Our mfgs must find a way to be more competitive than the cheap labor from overseas. This pertains not only to the gun industry, but all industry. In those developing nation's favor is the lack of environmental protection, OSHA laws and other safeguards. Mind you, I'm not advocating that we discard any of those, return to the days of child labor and fire employees who lose a limb on the job because the stamping machine went beserk. Rather, I'd love to see some politicing (sp?) to see overseas work conditions raised. :evil: After all, we proletariat brothers are struggling together!

[Justin]

And the problem is...?

If another country can turn out a product superior to an American one at a similar or even lower price, I'm going to buy that one. I see no reason to hogtie myself both with a higher price and possibly a crappy product out of some misguided sense of jingoism.

The only thing that bothers me about the situation is that formerly communist nations seem to have a better grasp on the concepts and realities of the free market than we do! (Which I consider a very telling statement about the current condition of American business and government.)

[Justin]

Rather, I'd love to see some politicing (sp?) to see overseas work conditions raised. After all, we proletariat brothers are struggling together! It's already been shown that the people working in those overseas "sweatshops" make something on the order of 3 times as much money as similarly aged people in the same countries who opt to work in farming or other positions.

Whaddya wanna give these people? Gold-plated tools and girls with fans?

[son of a gun]

About 7 years ago I recall Norinco getting busted for importing a couple thousand Full-Auto AK's and several hundred Silencers for 1911 style pistols.

[Mike Irwin]

Welcome to the world economy.

I think Lee and Jackson look particuarly fine with Asian facial characteristics...

[4v50 Gary]

Justin - if they got gold plated tools with pretty girls to fan them while on the job, I may move there myself to work.

[Ian]

While funding Norinco (a giant government-owned conglomerate) is distasteful, I see no reason not to support fledgling capitalism among "Roosian" arms maufacturers. If only we could import more of their innovative products (like those quad-stack 60-round AK mags, Bizons, AN-94s, and so on)...

[lee n. field]

Gotta wonder about the China ban. Semi-local gun store sold off a buttload of "Zheng Zhou Machine Works" (Norinco) singleshot shotguns a couple weeks ago, as a sales comeone.

[hd1.]

Whenever I hear fellow Americans welcoming products from overseas, I can't help but wondering what goods or service they themselves are contributing here in America. There are most likely foreign sources that would be willing to provide the same goods or services for cheaper. What is it that these people make or do that is so unique that they can welcome foreign competion?

[Number 6]

It's already been shown that the people working in those overseas "sweatshops" make something on the order of 3 times as much money as similarly aged people in the same countries who opt to work in farming or other positions.

Its not a question of the amount one makes but more about the conditions in which that money is made. If someone is working in sweatshop for 16-18 hours a day, of course they have a greater chance of making more money than someone working 8-10 hours on a farm. That does not address the conditions in which they work however. Such a fact as you have stated is far too vague for any real comparison to be made. For a valid comparison to be made one needs a lot more detail.

[CWL]

Kinda silly to post such a message when the computer you are are using is over 80% made outside of the USA. (Mostly China)

[semf]

Has anyone here ever visited an overseas sweatshop. What makes you think that the same media that over exaggerates every thing else does not exaggerate sweatshop conditions.
A few years back ESPN did a piece on "The Great Sneawaker Controversy", where they complained that the workers made only $35/month and lived in small rooms and slept on mats on the floor of their Apartments.
These workers were young women mostly and I bet they prefer the life they live now to picking rice from dark to dark for a dollar a day, living in a grass shack with up to 10 other people. Or working in the Karaoke houses.

[Standing Wolf]

I buy as little communist Chinese junk as possible: a lot of it is manufactured by slave laborers, and nearly all of it is of second- and third-rate quality.

I've never bought anything Russian in my life, but I've recently begun thinking about a Russian .22 caliber match pistol. The owner of the only one I've ever seen swears by his.

[Dr.Rob]

here's what I think about that.

I respect your right/choiceto boycot anything made in China/Russia/France for that matter but I wonder if you realize what that means?

Does that mean you will vote down any politician granting those nations Most Favored Nation trade status?

Does that mean you won't drink french wine but still sneak a smoke with a Bic lighter?

Does that mean you won't buy a Norinco shotgun but still but CD's Video Games DVD's and zillions of other plastic good mades in China? You'd be pretty much out of luck in a variety of appliences too.

Not buying Russian products? Guess you probably still think the Tea Protest is still in place or still call it "Salisbury Steak" instead of 'Hamburger', your memory is longer than mine but hasn't history, and the Marshall Plan shown you that emerging capitalist democracies need influxes of capital from selling goods?

Reminds me of the PETA type who bemoans animal cruelty while shod in LEATHER Birkenstocks, or chides Cathy Lee's sweatshops on tip toes in Asian sweat shop produced Nikes.

Do you only "Buy American?" Hate to tell you this but Colt is owned by an Iraqi, Winchester belongs to the French and until very recently SW was a British company. And it's Daimler-Chrysler now.

Multinational corporations make nationalism via capitalism sort of a moot point.

I'm not so sure on Chinese weapons, but I'd sure as heck but one made in Russia.

[Chris Rhines]

I generally try to avoid buying American-made goods, and thereby supporting Commie labor union thugs.

We all have our priorities.

- Chris

[Abenaki]

Don't forget that some of those companies overseas , that are flooding America with cheap stuff are owned or financed by Americans.

Abenaki

[Tamara]

Hey, flipped over the keyboard you're typing that on? What's the small print say? If it says "Made in USA", I'll eat my hat.

[Illuminate]

Buying foreing made guns from gunstores does more to support said stores than it does fund communism. A little money to communism, more money to fellow 2-Amendment Americans. I think it evens out, at the very least.

[BluesBear]

I posted thison another thread a couple of days ago and I just can't help repeating myself, repeating myself.

***********************

Try to find something that isn't made in china nowadays. Most everyday stuff we use has some sort of chinese tie-in.

What some of you fail to realize is that's just the way the economy runs. When I was a kid everyone was badmouthing all of the Japanese junk being imported. So nothing has really changed.

It's very simple really.

If you don't want a chinese made widget, then don't buy it.

If you don't want a Norinco 97 Trench gun then don't buy it.

But remember even though it is made in China it was unloaded from the container ship by Americans.
An American truck driver and/or railroad engineer transported it across the country.
At the distributor, several Americans put it in inventory, catalogued it and then took it out of inventory again.
An American at the distributor took the order from the dealer.
An American freight/parcel driver (from an American company employing thousands of other Americans) delivered it to the dealer.
And last but not least an American dealer sold it to YOU.

Sure, somebody in china made a few bucks on it, but considering the near slave wages paid to them, very little of the purchase price actually went to anyone in china.
Many more Americans made more money on the same product than china did.

I would gladly pay a little more (not a lot, but a little) for a US made Win97 replica but guess what? I CAN'T!

************

Did I mention that I am repeating myself?


I recall going through this same crap 30 years ago except it was Japanese cars back then. The more things change the more they stay the same.

[Mike Irwin]

"Does that mean you won't drink french wine but still sneak a smoke with a Bic lighter?"

Zippo, dude, Zippo!

Bradford, Pennsylvania's, finest!

[retiredsgt]

Hey: Looks like I hit a Nerve. I was a little miffed when I saw all of the "Made in China" markings on the items that the "Sons of Confederate Veterans" were selling. along with the Norinco shotgun they were raffling off.
No! I did not buy any of the items so marked, but it do make you think.
Some of those EEA guns are starting to look pretty good. They obviously have someone on staff who understands what a gun should look like, i.e, one that will appeal to the U.S. public. I saw some info, recently that the new Stevens Model 411 is made by the "Roosians" for Stevens.
My computer and keyboard are both IBM, but state,"Made in China".
I do not use Bics but have several well used and great working "Zippo" lighters. I DO NOT drink French Wine, but wines made right here in the Shenandoah Valley. Of course, I am partial to Irish Stout, German Lager, and did someone mention "Cuban Cigars"?

[Mike Irwin]

Hey, I flipped my Dell keyboard over...

Made in Thailand!

[cracked butt]

If all of your goods were made in USA, from the mundane to the complex, you wouldn't have enough money left over to buy one of those $800 American made handguns.:neener:

As far as buying firearms from communist or former communist nations, I'm all for it as long as the qulaity is reasonable for the price. I rarely hear any negatives about Norinco or EAA and the prices are nice. The other reason I support them is for the fact that firearm ownership is not allowed in many of these foreign countries. Like it or not, the rest of the world looks up to us, even the French and if thousands of people are working in factories making rifles and shotguns to export to America by the boatload, you have to wonder what goes through the heads of the workers. My feeling is that its something like this
"America is a great country with great people. I wish I were an American. Americans buy all of these nice guns I make. Why is it that I'm not allowed to own one?"

[Penforhire]

Hmm, I think we should all buy American even if there is a little price differential. Notice I did not say quality or style. If something is made "better" elsewhere or has a "better" style then I have no gripes about buying it.

I put my money where my mouth is and I hope to support our domestic economy as much as I can. Anyone who actually prefers to buy imports just BECAUSE they are not made in the U.S.A. should just pack up and move. That's how I feel.

[Mike Irwin]

Well, should we buy American even if the product we want is no longer even made in America?

I can't think of a single VCR or DVD player that's made in the United States...

How about autos?

Do we buy a Ford that's partially made in Canada, Mexico, and Brazil, or a Toyota that's made in the United States?

[Daniel T]

If you have a gripe with communism, I can certainly understand not buying Norincos. Not a choice I'm going to make with that model 97 looking at me though. However, what exactly is the problem with buying "Roosian" guns? Last time I checked, Russian was a democracy.

[Penforhire]

Mike, consumer electronics was a great failure of American manufacturing. Once upon a time multiple American companies made good TV's and VCR's. Then a combination of poor management and buyer cooperation dismantled that industry in about a decade. Hell, we (an American) invented the VCR and sold the rights to the Japanese.

Foreign autos, and again mismanaged American car companies, are a pet peeve of mine. I know Honda offered their CVCC head technology to GM (what, around 1970?) and they laughed at Soichiro, rejecting his offer and saying he could never produce enough cars to be a threat. Fine visionaries there!

I drive a Corvette Z06 and a Jeep Grand Cherokee. Two of the finest automobiles I've ever owned (and I've owned cars from Honda, Acura, Porsche, BMW, and Volvo in my misguided youth). Plenty of people buy foreign in those price ranges for emotional reasons. I know my old Jeep YJ was built in Canada but the bulk of its content was still North American. I also know an American built Camry has a lot of American labor in it. But there are plenty of cars out there with 90% or more Japanese content too.

I'll agree if the style doesn't grab you then buy what does. But I have a lot of fun with the performance car crowd debating the vette. I tell them , you spend up to 50% more on a stock vehicle and meet me on a race track, 1/4 mile or road race since I do both, and let's see what happens. Then try to tell me what a POS American cars are or how they can't handle well :) . Then I get 28 MPG on the highway home, more better than most competing vehicles. Build quality and initial defects are on par with the imports (M3 engine blow-ups anyone?). I feel good that the only other cheaper car to come close in the 1/4 is a '03 Ford Mustang Cobra.

Then travel to world of modified cars and tell me what vehicle an LPE 427TT vette won't beat, considering it holds several world speed records.

All this hot air about import cars... and I admire many of their designs and anything not specifically "riced" out. I just don't think we should prefer them simply because they were made elsewhere.

[Dave R]

They way I see the Geopolitical world...Russia is more our ally than France is, these days.

(And no, I don't own any French guns.)

[CWL]

There's also the flipside to this issue. For example:

Cummins tractors are made outside of the USA, while

Kubota tractors are made inside the USA.

[1badmagnum]

why should I spend my hard earned money on overpriced inferior products?
most american companies are giving the ceo's big raises while the workers are getting their modest salaries.
I buy the best value for my dollar,I dont care where its made.

[Tamara]

My BMW was imported from South Carolina.

(Don't it stand for Bubba Makes Wheels?)

Is buying a Weatherby "buying American"? What about buying a Danish re-import Garand?

[RTFM]

I don't give a flip where it's made (though I do try to avoid Frog stuff)

Boycott French Companies & Brands (http://www.metrospy.com/euronating_french_boycott_consumer.htm)

I buy what works for me, if it's made here ok, if it's made somewhere else, also ok.
I try to shy away from anything that out right displays a union label. (I even scraped the union stickers off my cars (1 American, 2 Japanese))

I don't believe in buying inferior equipment to support a misguided ideal that if I don't strictly buy American some poor schmo is gonna lose his shirt.
If that is the case, then the manufacturer needs to step up and improve the product.

[Skunkabilly]

Russian parts, American parts. All made in Taiwan. :barf:

[cracked butt]

My favorite is when people give me a hard time about having a foreign truck. My Nissan was made in Tennesee so I ask them, where was your Dodge made?:D

[trooper]

Last time I checked, Russian was a democracy.

I dare to ask, just when was that? Russia is run by a KGB thug and his band of merry old comrades, as well as by some petrol/gas millionaires, but definitely not by its people.

A country doesn't automatically become a democracy by leaving communism behind.

Regarding China, I'm amazed how many people around here label a country communist because it has a red flag :) Strictly spoken, a communist system doesn't allow private enterprise, therefore China doesn't qualify.

I think some guys need to get out of their cold war mentality (if they're with us, they're a democracy, if they're against us AND not islamists they gotta be communists).


Regards,

Trooper

[Balog]

Strictly spoken, a communist system doesn't allow private enterprise, therefore China doesn't qualify.


That's a misleading statement. It's true in only the most academic sense. Pure, theoretical Communism doesn't allow any free enterprise, sure. But following that train of thought would prevent any government from be labeled as being of a certain type, since none follow perfectly their models. Saying China isn't Communist is as ridiculous a manipulation of facts as saying that the Holocaust didn't happen.

[trooper]

But following that train of thought would prevent any government from be labeled as being of a certain type, since none follow perfectly their models. Saying China isn't Communist is as ridiculous a manipulation of facts as saying that the Holocaust didn't happen.

Well, but while China is indeed a one-party dictatorship, nowadays there is waaaay too much private business going on there to call it a communist state. It sure was at some point, I'll admit that much, but not anymore.


Trooper

[trooper]

The only countries I would still call communist today are Cuba and North Korea. Both China and Vietnam are too far down the road to privately owned economy.

[Master Blaster]

Just a thought, but doesnt trading with them, make a war much less likely?
If our economies are interdependent, that would make the prospect of war
very unattractive for them?

On the other hand I dont like the idea that my daughter's Barbie doll purchase may be helping to fund China's military buildup.

Historically though the Chinese tend to not invade their neighbors, (with a few post WWII exceptions) they tend to be the ones who are invaded,
So perhaps their buildup is because they are afraid of US as well as the Russians.

[BryanP]

Hell, we (an American) invented the VCR and sold the rights to the Japanese.

This happened after the American inventor shopped the design around to every American consumer electronics company and was rejected because there was "no market" for such a device. Then and only then he took it to the Japanese.

As for cars, if I buy a Nissan truck (I haven't yet) I can tell people that not only do I buy a car made in America, I buy one made about 10 miles from my house.