Question: Selling guns on THR


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NC-Mike
August 13, 2009, 09:08 PM
A short story and background first.

I got caught in a credit crunch and a lot of things need to be sold. Long story short, I consolidated most of my bills and put them a Chase credit card, which at the time was offering 3.99 percent for the life of the loan. Great deal but Chase just decided to increase the payment from 2 percent of the balance to 5 percent of the balance. That's a 150 percent increase in monthly payment. I struggle to pay all the dang credit card bills now so this is not a good thing. Instead of whining about it and blaming Chase, I've accepted that I have been far less than responsible managing my credit and need to get all these bills paid off in the next two years. I'm very fortunate I still have a job and assets to sell. When I get the bills paid off, then I'll buy another gun and not before. I'm sure I'm not the only one in this situation and now I need to get squared up. (I'm pretty sure this subject can be a thread in itself)

That said, I've never sold a gun on this forum or any other forum. I did sell an EOTech and magnifier on the AR site and that went fine. To date, all the guns I have sold, I sold to a local dealer and have been pretty satisfied but thought maybe I should take a crack at selling some here.

Some questions I have are do I need to have my FFL ship to the sellers FFL and even if that is not required, isn't it a very good idea to do anyway?

How do you deal with folks that have very recently joined the site and have very few posts? How do you feel comfortable giving out your address to someone you don't know and who really likes the gun you want to sell.

I am fast talking myself out of this already. I can see forged postal money orders, people demanding a refund and returning a gun damaged. All kinds of non-sense is possible.

Am I alone in that thinking? Are there folks here that would never sell a gun on a internet forum? I would love to hear thoughts or comments from both sides and thanks.

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3pairs12
August 13, 2009, 09:17 PM
Take lots of pictures so quality of the firearm isn't in question. Make sure that you cover your !@# when it comes to the clearing of money orders. I know that post offices used to cash their own money orders don't know if that is still true. If you don't want to ship from FFL make buyer aware that they need to check that their ffl will accept delivery from a non ffl. I have seen in the past where both shipping from ffl to other ffl is buyers responsibilty price wise. Remeber that they are your firearms and payment needs to be met on your terms. As far as low post count goes make sure you have money in your hand before shipping firearm. That should keep you safe if they have 1 or 1000 posts. Remember some people only frequent trading post and this will not add to post count. BTW I hate Chase they raised the interest on my card as soon as they bought my mortgage I will never do business with them again, well when the house isn't owned by them.

markallen
August 13, 2009, 09:35 PM
I have sold quite e few guns on the THR. Six to be exact.
I have only had trouble once.
I always check post count, and check feedback, in the retail section.
Just be upfront. Take plenty of pictures when you ship, and also of photos of step by step as you pack up gun for shipping. ( that's what I learned from the trouble one).
I have shipped all but one to an FFL. Make sure the receiving FFL will accept shipment from an non-licensed, unless you plan to ship from your FFL.
UPS, and USPS will not ship handguns from non-licensed, you'll have to use Fedex, which will send it Priority Overnight, wether it's hand gun, or long gun, which can be expensive.
If it's long gun, Fedex, or USPS will ship.
UPS will not ship hand gun, or long gun from non-licensed.
You'll need a copy of the FFL you are sending to, and you can check that number on the BATFA website, with you when you ship, shipper will keep the copy, so make one for your own records.
I also have them e-mail, a scanned copy of their drivers license, and print and keep that also.
I always expect payment with Postal Money Order, and I won't ship until I have it, and the other copies mentioned above.
Check out the other for sale posts to see how they are worded.
I hope this helps.
It's not as complicated as it sounds, once you sell your first one online, but it's always going to be a little nerve wracking till it's over.

Tully M. Pick
August 13, 2009, 09:47 PM
I am fast talking myself out of this already. I can see forged postal money orders, people demanding a refund and returning a gun damaged. All kinds of non-sense is possible.

Then sell it face-to-face. Of course, that way someone might kill you and take your gun.

mnrivrat
August 13, 2009, 09:47 PM
UPS will not ship hand gun, or long gun from non-licensed.

UPS will ship at least the long guns from nonlicensed people if it is shipped from the local UPS hub location , not 100% sure about handguns, but long guns they will ship, and I think handguns also, but they have to go overnight or second day air rather than ground.

NC-Mike
August 13, 2009, 10:00 PM
Then sell it face-to-face. Of course, that way someone might kill you and take your gun.


http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g312/Mike____Smith/Miscellaneous/youfunny.jpg

mm1ut1
August 13, 2009, 10:25 PM
My bank always checks USPS money orders for authenticity before they cash it. There is a number they call to verify it is good.
Ask a buyer if they have an ebay account or one on Gunbroker. You can always sell through a local dealer who advertises on the internet, but that will cost you $$$.

nalioth
August 13, 2009, 10:25 PM
UPS will not ship hand gun, or long gun from non-licensed. Why do these threads always end up with garbage?

United Parcel Service will accept any firearm from any person and ship it to any legal recipient.

This can mean that you can ship a handgun or long gun to your old buddy in the next city over (same state [local and state laws willing]), back to the manufacturer, or to any FFL holder for repair or sales.

Their internal policies require handguns be shipped overnight, but after that, they can be shipped to any legal recipient.

ThrottleJockey72
August 13, 2009, 11:14 PM
I just want to know why sellers are snobs. In the last week, I have tried to buy a .357 lever rifle FTF only to be snubbed and my PM not even read, and now am getting the brush off on another hunting rifle. What gives people? I don't need either one, but they are both rifles I have wanted and looked a long time for. If they mean that much to you, don't offer them for sale.

Tully M. Pick
August 14, 2009, 08:24 AM
I know my answer may seem flippant, but the sarcasm exists for a reason. I've very recently dealt with mm1ut1 with a face-to-face transaction here in Wisconsin. Not only was I able to purchase some interesting milsurp firearms; I was able to meet someone who was willing to share their knowledge and enthusiasm for something that I enjoy. You seem to be fixated on the bad things that might happen. Sure, something bad might happen. Something really good might happen, too.

If you look through the feedback forum, you will find page upon page of people happy in their dealings with fellow Highroaders. Some people have been around for years and have very few posts. Some people have been around for days and have hundreds of posts. The content of the posts should matter to you more than the quantity. Posts in the BST section don't count towards your total, so some people may have several transactions and positive feedback even if they have a low post count. Take payment in USPS money orders, or cash if FTF. Have your FFL ship it if you're uncomfortable, but build that price into the sale.

If you sell them FTF meet in a public place, like a mall parking lot or a gunstore. You're much less likely to be killed that way.

:neener:

nalioth
August 14, 2009, 09:44 AM
Have your FFL ship it if you're uncomfortable, but build that price into the sale. Why? "Personal comfort" is not a reason to have your FFL ship to another FFL.

chuckusaret
August 14, 2009, 10:07 AM
United Parcel Service will accept any firearm from any person and ship it to any legal recipient

Wrong!.......I have not been able to ship thru UPS in Riviera Beach, Fl. The clerk states that it is their policy to not ship firearms.

3pairs12
August 14, 2009, 10:08 AM
[QUOTE][Why? "Personal comfort" is not a reason to have your FFL ship to another FFL.
/QUOTE]
Personal comfort is different for everybody, so it can be a reason. Not one of the reasons that I would do it but doesn't mean that somebody else can't ship this way becuase of comfort. I feel more comfortable in ftf sales. The one time I shipped it was a trade deal with a member of this board that had a low post count. I have always been scared to cross ship but it could not have worked out better.

kanook
August 14, 2009, 10:20 AM
Shipping Firearms

Special Procedures for Shipping Firearms

Use These UPS Services for Your Firearm Shipment
UPS accepts packages containing firearms, as defined by Title 18, Chapter 44, and Title 26, Chapter 53 of the United States Code, for transportation from and between licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, and licensed collectors, as defined in Title 18, Chapter 44 of the United States Code, law enforcement agencies of the United States (or of any department or agency of the United States) and law enforcement agencies of any state or department agency (or political subdivision of any state), and from and between persons not otherwise prohibited from shipping firearms by federal, state or local law and when such shipment complies with all applicable federal, state and local laws applicable to the shipper, recipient and package.


Handguns, as defined by 18 U.S.C. § 921,will be accepted for transportation only via UPS Next Day Air® Early A.M.®, UPS Next Day Air®, or UPS Next Day Air Saver® services. (Note: UPS Express CriticalSM Service is not available for firearms).
UPS accepts firearm parts for shipment, provided the part is not a "firearm" as defined under federal law; the contents of the package cannot be assembled to form a firearm; and the package otherwise complies with federal, state, and local law. (Note: Receivers or frames of a firearm, firearm mufflers and silencers are considered "firearms" and are accepted for transportation only if shipped in accordance with UPS's requirements for shipping firearms.)
UPS does not accept automatic weapons, including machine guns, for shipment.
Firearms, including handguns, and firearm parts are not accepted for shipment internationally
Ammunition may be accepted for shipment internationally provided it is shipped in accordance with the UPS Guide for Shipping International Goods.
UPS ReturnsSM Services are not available for packages containing firearms.





Follow These Packing Requirements
Packages containing handguns must be separated from other packages being delivered to UPS.
Ammunition cannot be included in packages that contain firearms (including handguns). Ammunition must be shipped in accordance with the UPS Guide for Shipping Ground and Air Hazardous Materials, or the UPS Guide for Shipping International Dangerous Goods.
Small arms ammunition, as defined in 49 C.F.R. § 173.59, will be transported only when packaged and labeled in compliance with 49 C.F.R. § 172 regarding hazardous materials shipments.





About Documentation and Labeling
The shipper must use Delivery Confirmation Adult Signature Required service for each package containing a firearm, including a handgun, and affix a UPS label requesting an adult signature upon delivery.





Getting Your Firearm Shipment to UPS
You can only ship your package that contains a handgun from UPS daily pickup accounts or through UPS Customer Centers (counters at UPS operational facilities). Note: Handguns are not accepted for shipment through UPS Internet Shipping, UPS Drop Boxes, or UPS On-Call PickupSM, or at The UPS Store® or any third party retailer.
When you are shipping a package that contains a handgun, you must verbally notify the UPS driver or UPS Customer Center clerk.
You can ship a firearm (excluding handguns), from a UPS daily pickup account, UPS On-Call Pickup, One-Time Pickup, or a UPS Customer Center. Note: Firearms are not accepted for shipment through UPS Internet Shipping, UPS Drop Boxes, or at The UPS Store or any third party retailer.
See the terms and conditions in the UPS Tariff/Terms and Conditions of Service for information regarding firearm shipments.


Wrong!.......I have not been able to ship thru UPS in Riviera Beach, Fl. The clerk states that it is their policy to not ship firearms. I went to the ups web sight for you and copied it here. Now you can print this page and take it with you or you can still tell people that they are wrong when in reality you are misinformed.

WNC Seabee
August 14, 2009, 10:20 AM
UPS will not ship hand gun,

ETA: ^^looks like Kanook got his post in a mere second or 2 before me...

In the last 3 weeks I (non-FFL) have personally shipped 4 handguns via UPS Overnight. Fully declared to the UPS clerk. You must go to the UPS hub/service center rather than a retail store. Local offices may behave differently, but it's certainly not against any corporate policy to ship handguns.

UPS policy on shipping firearms: http://www.ups.com/content/us/en/resources/ship/packaging/guidelines/firearms.html

In the last couple years, I've conducted ~15 deals via various forums without undue hassle. The only one that made me nervous was a seller with poor communication skills.

My advice is to simply avoid a deal that "doesn't seem right". If you get a bad vibe, move on to the next guy. And get paid up front. And shipping is always more expensive than you think (remember to factor in packaging costs, especially on long guns!).

NC-Mike
August 14, 2009, 11:51 AM
tmpick

I know my answer may seem flippant, but the sarcasm exists for a reason.

I think I have a very good idea what that reason is.

Tully M. Pick
August 14, 2009, 12:19 PM
I think I have a very good idea what that reason is.
Yes, I'm opinionated and I post it. I also post under my real name. I interject humor into my responses because life's just too short to be serious about everything that comes along, especially when it's really no big deal at all. Thinly veiled insults don't do anyone good, and if you want to openly insult me you can take it to PM or email.

Cosmoline
August 14, 2009, 12:25 PM
I've sold a bunch here and FTF, as well as on other sites.

For very particular sorts of firearms, such as C&R rarities or antiques, it's sometimes better to sell on a specialized forum or GB.

Make sure you get US POSTAL money order payment. I had a fellow pay with a 7-11 "money order" once that was even less useful than a personal check and took ages to clear. With a PMO you can go turn it to cash as soon as you have it.

Paypal is a bad joke and they ban us anyway. They take real cash and turn it into monopoly money.

For shipping long arms I've really come to like USPS Priority Mail. It's pretty reasonable and I've had nothing busted up. UPS is another story, as is USPS ground.

Do not ship short guns in the mail, ever. They would need to go by common carrier which means overnight express. Make sure you know your shipping costs before finalizing the deal.

Written agreements are fine with me as long as they're short and to the point. I would be careful about guarantees and promises about condition and the like. Read Art 2 of the UCC for some general ideas about how these can come back to bite you. OTOH it isn't customary to sell working firearms "as is" with no warranty or promise of any kind. The only time I've seen that is with truly non-functional firearms or antiques. In such a case it is customary for the buyer to sign off on a written understanding of this condition, so no kabooms. But selling non-functional guns is not common for most of us.

Be wary of guys who add conditions and try to get you to do strange things. Stay on the customary and legal routes. They send money, you send firearm to FFL.

FTF is great and very simple. There is an element of danger to it, but that can be greatly reduced if you advertise in forums with people you trust. I don't put out ads on "tradeio," or the broad access local bul. boards, but rather post them on a swap forum that's frequented by real hunters and good people. Never had any sort of trouble. Pretty much what Lone Gunman is referencing below. You'll know a place like that when you find it, and it really really helps to weed out the nogoodnicks from your pool of buyers.

It's OK to ask to check ID before doing a FTF. You are checking to make sure this person is a resident and not going to jump over the state line to their true state. This is a bigger deal back east I suspect.

For bigger dollar transactions esp. remember you have obligations to safeguard the firearm after you receive the funds and before you get it to the shipper. There is a contract at work even if it's not written, and you absolutely cannot screw around and delay. That's what will get you a bad rep really fast. Be prepared to ship when you receive funds. The shorter the turnaround the better for all involved. And do use the shipper's insurance. It's really cheap.

Lone_Gunman
August 14, 2009, 12:27 PM
My advice to you is to try to sell locally, within your state. See if you can find an outdoor forum for your state with a buy and sell forum. List your items there, and you will probably be able to sell them within your state, through face to face transactions. That way you don't have to ship, or pay any FFL fees. You will end up getting more money for you guns.

In Georgia, we have an excellent outdoor magazine called Georgia Outdoor News. They have a website with a very active buy and sell forum. I have bought and sold several things through that forum. Try to find something similar in your state. It is much better than listing on a national forum and then trying to figure out how to comply with federal and state regulations.

Floppy_D
August 14, 2009, 12:31 PM
I buy and sell on here all the time. As a result, I've met several forum members, who have all been nice guys, and made several deals that ended up with everyone happy. No one made me feel "uncomfortable." Take lots of pictures or make a Youtube video of the items for sale, and be honest about the condition. Conduct business in a big-box store parking lot, no worries.

If you feel uncertain, asking for buy/sell references is a very reasonable request. Good luck with the finances. :)

Turbobuddha
August 14, 2009, 12:44 PM
For local selling, there is also Armslist. They only seem to have a few states that have any real actvivty. Here in KS, it's seems to be catching on quite well. I have bought a revolver and an AR lower through the site and both transactions went very well. Also use a local KS CCW forum. Locals markets do limit your customer base a bit and may take longer to sell.

Chase tried to raise my card rate due to "changing market conditions and to maintain profitablity" on my account. Told them to do bad things to themselves and canceled the card to maintian my low rate on the remaining balance. I'm done with the loan sharks. I think you might get treated better by the mob. Unless you default. Best of luck to you.

kingpin008
August 14, 2009, 12:48 PM
Wrong!.......I have not been able to ship thru UPS in Riviera Beach, Fl. The clerk states that it is their policy to not ship firearms.

You really shouldn't believe everything some minimum-wage cashier monkey tells you. :banghead:

Maelstrom
August 14, 2009, 12:59 PM
Post roughly where in your state you live and then start selling locally. If you can't move your guns that way first then branch out and deal with shipping.

NC-Mike
August 14, 2009, 03:32 PM
Chase tried to raise my card rate due to "changing market conditions and to maintain profitablity" on my account. Told them to do bad things to themselves and canceled the card to maintian my low rate on the remaining balance. I'm done with the loan sharks. I think you might get treated better by the mob. Unless you default. Best of luck to you.

What Chase did was raise the minimum payment from 2 percent of the balance to 5 percent of the balance, so if your minimum payment was say 400 a month, it will now be 1,000 a month, which is where I fall in. :eek:

There is a class-action law-suit over it if people want to go that route.

Raising the minimum payment was actually something the government encouraged the credit card companies to do. :eek: Uncle Sam says people will pay off their balances faster. :neener:

So rather than whine about it, I need to do what I have to do. I got the low 3.99 rate because my credit was good. Its still good. I don't have any late payments and my score is excellent but my management practices suck. I have way too much debt and need to get out. I just quit smoking 4 months ago and could easily compare my addiction to spending money I don't have to smoking cigarettes. Both are addictions that require serious attention and interdictions in order to overcome.

And there was no getting around the increase in minimum payment. Even if you closed the account, the increase would still go in effect. I'm looking at this as a clarion wake-up call and I think I finally got the message.


BTW, to anyone else who made it this far into this post, thanks for your very good advice on selling guns here and elsewhere. I have at least ten firearms I want to sell and appreciate all the good advice. If I had one or two to sell, I wouldn't sweat it that much but as I say, I have never sold a firearm privately and had some questions and concerns. I think those are settled now. Thanks again.

DRYHUMOR
August 14, 2009, 03:37 PM
My question, and probably everyone else's. What are you going to sell?

trimore
August 14, 2009, 03:49 PM
I thought I posted previously or maybe my post got deleted.

On the financial stuff.... I just finished a 3 year process to get out of over 40k in debt (except house). I used the plan laid out by DaveRamsey.com. No gimick. Just a doable plan, hard work and worth it all. 1st time being debt free in my adult life. Great feeling.

NC-Mike
August 14, 2009, 03:57 PM
My question, and probably everyone else's. What are you going to sell?

Still deciding on what I will sell but have narrowed it down to this:

Romak 1 AK
Bushmaster XM15 E2S M4-type A2 14.5"
SIG 556
Norinco SKS-M
Century AES-10B
Bushmaster XM15 E2S 20" A3 Heavy Barrel
CZ 75 B
Taurus PT1911
CZ-82
Taurus Tracker 627

1500 rounds Black Box Wolf 5.56
1000 rounds Black Box Wolf 7.62 x 39




I have one more AR. A DPMS A3 M-forgery with a Millet DMS scope on it. I'm thing of keeping it but I'm in love with the BM 14.5 carbine. Its such a sweet little honey of a carbine, I don't know if I can actually sell it. :(


What I have to sell is pretty much in common demand.

NC-Mike
August 14, 2009, 03:58 PM
I thought I posted previously or maybe my post got deleted.

On the financial stuff.... I just finished a 3 year process to get out of over 40k in debt (except house). I used the plan laid out by DaveRamsey.com. No gimick. Just a doable plan, hard work and worth it all. 1st time being debt free in my adult life. Great feeling.

Good work. That's where I need to be.

thorazine
August 14, 2009, 05:18 PM
I am fast talking myself out of this already. I can see forged postal money orders, people demanding a refund and returning a gun damaged. All kinds of non-sense is possible.

First,

I avoid out of state transactions.

Face to face only -- in state.


Second,

Cash.


Third,

Product is sold as is.

State it in your advertisement.



Provide many pictures of every possible angle.

-and-

State that additional pictures are available on request.

mongo4567
August 14, 2009, 10:42 PM
Wrong!.......I have not been able to ship thru UPS in Riviera Beach, Fl. The clerk states that it is their policy to not ship firearms.

chuckusaret - I assume that you were shipping from a main hub, the Mailboxes Etc places don't take firearms; unless you have an account and drop them off ready to go. I have had many of the clerks (UPS, FedEx, USPS) tell me that they do not ship firearms. I politely tell them that they are wrong and ask them to call their own customer service or get their manager. Sometimes I need to escalate within the customer service department.

To the OP - I've sold quite a few as my collecting focus changed. Take good pictures and highlight any faults so everyone is happy. Just insist on USPS MO and cash it at the post office, it is really no problem. Also make sure to state in the ad that the receiving FFL must accept from a non-FFL. It also works really well to print out the company's shipping rules before going. You can read their own rules to them to resolve any misinformation.

WNC Seabee
August 14, 2009, 11:19 PM
Bushmaster XM15 E2S 20" A3 Heavy Barrel

MC-Mike.....if the NC stands for North Carolina....I'm in the same state and would be interested in this rifle. Shoot me a PM with a price and our location.

If you're going to the Charlotte show tomorrow, I could meet up!

Tim

NC-Mike
August 15, 2009, 01:05 AM
Yes, I'm opinionated and I post it. I also post under my real name. I interject humor into my responses because life's just too short to be serious about everything that comes along, especially when it's really no big deal at all. Thinly veiled insults don't do anyone good, and if you want to openly insult me you can take it to PM or email.

I don't want to exchange nasty-grams with anyone. :p



Peace brother, we're all here to talk about the things we love. Guns and shooting. :)

NC-Mike
September 13, 2009, 12:59 PM
I thought I would post an update on what I'm doing.

I sold 2 rifles, a shotgun and a handgun to my local dealer why gave me a very decent price. Roughly 70 percent of what I paid for the guns and that was enough.

The way I'm going now that wasn't discussed or mentioned is consignment. I have a really good local FFL who is consigning 2 rifles and a handgun for me on the auction sites and if that goes well, I'll sell the rest of them
through him.

My cost is 3.5 percent of the final price and the buyer will pay for the shipping and transfer. He charges 15.00 for a transfer and whatever the cost for shipping is. The FFL has excellent feedback on Gunbroker and I think this is really the best way to go for me.

I don't have to deal with the hassle or any potential problem selling the gun myself and I should get very close to market value. I think having great feedback on the auction sites is pretty important as it should bring out more bidders. I have all of two feedback on Gunbroker while this gentlemen has close to 400.

I've also resigned myself to this downsizing and actually feeling pretty OK with it. Its a natural correction. I still have more than enough guns to amuse myself with during the next few years while I pay these bills off.

searcher451
September 13, 2009, 05:49 PM
I recently conducted a sale with a "new" member of THR. Like you, I was a bit concerned about his lack or posts and mentioned this in a PM. He quickly had a friend of his who also is a member here send along a note with assurances that the guy was on the up-and-up. But the more I spoke with the seller via email, the more convinced I became that he was a good guy -- and darned if he wasn't. We completed a successful transaction without incident or issue; it was quick and painless, and I got a nice firearm in the bargain at a good price, which is all you can ever hope for.

Sometimes the best thing you have going for you is your gut. All I can say is trust it. In all the time that I've been buying online, I've had one experience that wasn't as advertised. The bulk of folks who are here, at least, are rock-solid, IMO. Good luck.

NC-Mike
September 13, 2009, 07:44 PM
In all the time that I've been buying online, I've had one experience that wasn't as advertised. The bulk of folks who are here, at least, are rock-solid, IMO. Good luck.

I'm selling/sold more than a dozen guns and I'm not wanting the risk or time investment that comes with that.

The consignment seems to be a real good option. I drop off the gun, he sells it, does all the required paperwork, packs it, ships it and I go pick up my check. Can't beat it with a stick.

FROGO207
September 13, 2009, 10:17 PM
I have sold a few and bought many on line. No problems other than one slow to deliver.:( Everyone seems to be on the up and up as a rule. Stating the rules and following them yourself will help when making a transaction. I have also on occasion paid someone to do the leg work for me and it was well worth it at the time as i needed time more than the small fee charged.:D

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