Man sentenced after arsenal found in Bellevue storage locker


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Skykomish
August 15, 2009, 03:49 AM
This is an update to this thread.....

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=421900

A former Kirkland man was sentenced Friday to four years in prison after federal agents found a huge weapons cache in storage lockers in Bellevue and Spokane.

By Ian Ith

Seattle Times staff reporter

To everyone who knew him, Ronald Struve was not the kind of man who would one day be arrested by federal agents and, at age 67, be sent off to prison for four years on weapons charges.

He was the jovial bachelor uncle, the eccentric, introverted pack rat who loved his pet birds and fed the wild critters that came to his back porch. For four decades, he went to work every day as a court stenographer, and he even shared a Kirkland rental house with a King County sheriff's deputy for a while.

But during the decades of the Cold War, Struve also believed it was only a matter of time before the Soviets or the Red Chinese came storming onto U.S. soil. So, quietly, Struve collected an arsenal and stuck it away in rented storage lockers in Bellevue and Spokane: grenade launchers, dozens of grenades and machine guns, plastic explosives, silencers, blasting caps and detonator cord.

The Cold War ended, of course, and Struve quit worrying so much. But he just couldn't bear to part with his collection.

Then one day he failed to pay the bill on the Bellevue locker. Someone bought the contents at auction. Struve's secret was out.

On Friday, U.S. District Judge Marsha Pechman sentenced Struve to 48 months in prison, three years of probation and mental-health counseling, saying, "The bottom line is, people simply should not have these things and that's why we have laws against them. Your collections have put other people at risk for decades."

Struve pleaded guilty in March to one count of possessing plastic explosives and four counts of possessing unregistered firearms. In return, the government dropped more than 100 other counts against him.

When agents of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives searched the Bellevue locker in November 2008, one veteran agent said, "In all my years, I've never seen this sort of firepower in one place."

They tallied two grenade launchers, 54 grenades, six big blocks of C4 plastic explosive, 37 machine guns from the Vietnam War era, among other weapons. One of the grenades had been "dud-fired," meaning the pin had been pulled and it potentially still could go off with a mere jiggle. Many of the items turned out to be stolen from the military long ago.

The agents also found more weapons in a locker Struve rented in Spokane. When they arrested Struve at his Spokane home, they said he told them he might use the weapons "some day," against "the enemy."

Prosecutors on Friday asked for a 63-month sentence. Assistant U.S. Attorney Thomas Woods said in court papers that Struve's arsenal "to say the least, was capable of inflicting deadly force on a devastating scale."

"The scope of the arsenal in this case was simply breathtaking," Woods said. "Quite simply, this was one of the largest arsenals for one person in this region's history."

But Struve said he never meant to hurt anyone.

In a letter to the judge, Struve said he started collecting weapons on the black market in the 1960s as the Vietnam War raged. "As a young man, I became an anti-communist and that influenced my thoughts and beliefs," he wrote. "I thought there was a strong possibility we (the U.S.) would be attacked by the Russians/Red Chinese."

But as the years went by, Struve wrote, he had been "modifying and tempering my beliefs and thoughts about world events and politics in general."

Even so, he was devoted to his collection and figured it might be worth something, he wrote. He tried to keep the weapons safe, he said. And he emphasized that he never fired any of them.

"I am not a violent person and have never knowingly hurt another person," he wrote.

His family and friends eagerly backed that up.

His former roommate, retired sheriff's Capt. James O'Brien, recounted that when the two shared a house in Kirkland many years ago, the raccoons and squirrels made a nightly pilgrimage to their backdoor for Struve's handouts.

"Ron has always been a quiet, friendly and caring person, close to his family in California," O'Brien wrote. "Ron is a good person who had made some bad choices."

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2009665618_struve15m.html

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Impureclient
August 15, 2009, 04:15 AM
Thank God somebody came in and took this menace away. :banghead:

Putting him prison will fix what? If he's such a threat then why not give him consecutive life sentences?
I can't understand why if somebody is considered such a domestic threat that any sane person would
think a few years in jail will somehow rehabilitate them.

THE DARK KNIGHT
August 15, 2009, 04:28 AM
*In before two dozen people chime in with how a guy possessing illegal machine guns and explosives did nothing wrong.*

Maelstrom
August 15, 2009, 04:47 AM
"Your collections have put other people at risk for decades."

Easily my favorite line. Who was at risk? And if it was such a great risk for so many decades then surely someone must have gotten hurt.

After all, if it didn't hurt anyone for 50 years it couldn't possibly have been a risk, right?

Baba Louie
August 15, 2009, 07:19 AM
What a maroon. Apparently Mr. Struve felt he was a well regulated one man militia who was totally obsessed with preparing for an enemy who would take his precious "Freedoms" away. :rolleyes:

Can you believe that some people actually believe those words... "the Right of the People to Keep and Bear arms Shall Not be Infringed"? :banghead:

(reminder to self... pay mini storage bill...) ;)

btg3
August 15, 2009, 07:40 AM
His former roommate, retired sheriff's Capt. James O'Brien, recounted that when the two shared a house in Kirkland many years ago, the raccoons and squirrels made a nightly pilgrimage to their backdoor for Struve's handouts.
The Seattle Times really knows how to get to the crux of the matter. :rolleyes:

KenWP
August 15, 2009, 07:48 AM
It's too bad he didn't think to build himself a shed out back and store them at home. Would have beat years of paying for a storage locker.

jakemccoy
August 15, 2009, 07:54 AM
One of the grenades had been "dud-fired," meaning the pin had been pulled and it potentially still could go off with a mere jiggle.

That's kind of a big deal if that's true.

Yo Mama
August 15, 2009, 08:01 AM
In before two dozen people chime in with how a guy possessing illegal machine guns and explosives did nothing wrong

Were they always illegal?

malamuteman1
August 15, 2009, 08:09 AM
(reminder to self... pay mini storage bill...) now thats funny

Old Fuff
August 15, 2009, 08:15 AM
Apparently the judge was more worried about the potential threat rather then the owner's intent. Lacking any evidence of criminal intent, and no prior record, four years in the slammer is a bit too much.

But then, weapons are evil... :banghead:

madcratebuilder
August 15, 2009, 08:22 AM
Lacking any evidence of criminal intent, and no prior record, four years in the slammer is a bit too much.

Couldn't agree more. The punishment outweighs the crime.

EricTheBarbarian
August 15, 2009, 08:25 AM
The Cold War ended, of course, and Struve quit worrying so much. But he just couldn't bear to part with his collection.

I doubt there was a legal way for him to have parted with his collection even if he wanted to.

The Russians may not be the only ones to worry about, I heard they are remaking Red Dawn sometime soon and it now has the Chinese.

3pairs12
August 15, 2009, 08:32 AM
I doubt there was a legal way for him to have parted with his collection even if he wanted to.
Kind of a darned if you do darned if you don't. Poor old man.

bdickens
August 15, 2009, 08:45 AM
A prime example of how stupid laws don't do anything but manufacture criminals out of otherwise law-abiding citizens.

61chalk
August 15, 2009, 09:39 AM
Will he did break the law, an he knew it...he's lucky he only got 4 years, on the good side, him buying an storing all those machine guns, grenades....from the blackmarket, that had been stolen, he kept them from being used in crimes, even though having them was a crime. I just can't get over the fact that he forgot about them so much that he
didn't pay the rental...probably why the judge ordered him for mental-health counseling, anyone having that much an forgeting about it has got to have mental problems!

Maelstrom
August 15, 2009, 10:01 AM
anyone having that much an forgeting about it has got to have mental problems!

I just coulda SWORE I had some grenades around here somewhere....

61chalk
August 15, 2009, 10:47 AM
^^^ Always wished grenades were legal, always wanted to chuck one down a groundhog hole...just to see.

JWF III
August 15, 2009, 10:55 AM
Quote:
"Your collections have put other people at risk for decades."

Easily my favorite line. Who was at risk? And if it was such a great risk for so many decades then surely someone must have gotten hurt.

After all, if it didn't hurt anyone for 50 years it couldn't possibly have been a risk, right?
__________________


My thoughts exactly. No one has been injured or killed in the last fifty years. So it's very probable to say that no one would be injured or killed in the next fifty years.

Yes he did break the law. But he had no ill intent. And four years, at the age of 67 (with no priors), seven years probation would have been better than the 4 & 3 they gave him.

Wyman

btg3
August 15, 2009, 10:57 AM
Always wished grenades were legal, always wanted to chuck one down a groundhog hole...just to see.
Uhh... anybody got a match, I need to see how much gas is in my tank. :D

btg3
August 15, 2009, 10:59 AM
My thoughts exactly. No one has been injured or killed in the last fifty years. So it's very probable to say that no one would be injured or killed in the next fifty years.

Would you extend that logic to nuclear arms?

Noxx
August 15, 2009, 11:06 AM
Easily my favorite line. Who was at risk? And if it was such a great risk for so many decades then surely someone must have gotten hurt.

I think his sentence is way out of line. In my mind, this is a probation deal.

However in answer to your question plenty of people were at risk. six pounds of C4 can make a pretty large firecracker, and storing it in a public setting (rented locker) is irresponsible and negligent, exposing other customers of the business, and the business itself to a threat that shouldn't be present.

That's how I have to look at this, from more of a moral standpoint, and not the typical black and white "He broke the law!" "The law sucks!" argument. For me, the bottom line is when rent a storage area, you sign a contract stating that you're not going to keep explosives and volatile / illegal materials there. Mr. Struve did so regardless simply because he placed his personal interests ahead of the potential threat (both physical and legal) he was creating for others.

That's just selfish and rude, imho. I don't really care if you want to squirrel away all that stuff (although obviously the BATFE does) but do it at your own damn house. I don't want to get blown to St. Peters doormat while helping my brother-in-law retrieve a twenty year old bookcase from his storage area.

Gaffer
August 15, 2009, 11:16 AM
I believe it is legal to own machine guns but you have to pay a hefty fee to Uncle Sam. It called a Class III license, I believe.

SHOOT1SAM
August 15, 2009, 01:12 PM
Noxx:I think his sentence is way out of line. In my mind, this is a probation deal.

However in answer to your question plenty of people were at risk. six pounds of C4 can make a pretty large firecracker, and storing it in a public setting (rented locker) is irresponsible and negligent, exposing other customers of the business, and the business itself to a threat that shouldn't be present.

I agree with Noxx for the most part on this. Although it's my understanding that C-4 is not the easiest stuff to detonate, there was definitely some risk there. Not to mention that if someone broke in to the storage locker, all of those guns would be on the street, in criminal's hands.

.................. For me, the bottom line is when rent a storage area, you sign a contract stating that you're not going to keep explosives and volatile / illegal materials there. Mr. Struve did so regardless simply because he placed his personal interests ahead of the potential threat (both physical and legal) he was creating for others......................

Well, if he started renting that storage locker back in the 1960's, I'll bet that back then, the contract didn't state any such thing about explosives, volatile, or illegal materials.

But, as 61chalk stated: ..........I just can't get over the fact that he forgot about them so much that he didn't pay the rental...........anyone having that much an forgeting about it has got to have mental problems!

Yep, makes you wonder.

Sam

theotherwaldo
August 15, 2009, 01:20 PM
I think that anyone who packs that much C-4 into a closed space along with poorly stored grenades certainly deserves some punishment.

MudPuppy
August 15, 2009, 01:21 PM
Not to mention that if someone broke in to the storage locker, all of those guns would be on the street, in criminal's hands.

That's true of every single gun you currently own, yes? :neener:

The .gov did a plenty back then to create the fear that lead to this man's stockpiling. (now we have a whole different set of commies to worry about...)

jakemccoy
August 15, 2009, 01:30 PM
Yeah, I don't know, folks. The threads about Plaxico Burress went way differently. Every other post in those threads pointed out how Plaxico was stupid. Not one post here has literally claimed this guy was stupid.

So, I'll be the first. This guy here was stupid for storing this large amount of weapons in a rental locker. He was stupider for failing to pay the bill.

Jorg Nysgerrig
August 15, 2009, 01:36 PM
A prime example of how stupid laws don't do anything but manufacture criminals out of otherwise law-abiding citizens.

You mean "stupid laws" like those that prohibit you from buying stolen military weapons on the black market? :rolleyes:

I'm having a hard time having much sympathy for the guy. It's not like he didn't know what he was doing.

SharpsDressedMan
August 15, 2009, 01:40 PM
He was probably waiting on that amnesty from 1968 that never got used up............

KevinAbbeyTech
August 15, 2009, 01:49 PM
Perhaps he would have been better off if he had handled it like this:
http://www.thecourier.co.uk/output/2009/05/25/newsstory13192931t0.asp

ThrottleJockey72
August 15, 2009, 01:52 PM
"As a young man, I became an anti-communist and that influenced my thoughts and beliefs,"
Darn good thing he didn't use the word "socialist"! That really would have got him sent up the river. I can't help but wonder about the selective way they use the patriot act and the new guidelines for making someone a "domestic terrorist". Had he been 25 or had a shaved head.........

The threads about Plaxico Burress went way differently. Every other post in those threads pointed out how Plaxico was stupid. Not one post here has literally claimed this guy was stupid.
Remember, now things have changed and people actually realize that the potential for needing this stuff is really there.

Officers'Wife
August 15, 2009, 01:55 PM
Hi Maelstrom,

After all, if it didn't hurt anyone for 50 years it couldn't possibly have been a risk, right?

You forget, such weapons have a habit of suddenly going berserk without human intervention. I especially liked the 'dud' fired grenade could go off with a 'jiggle.' Logically the problem would be a bad detonator, a substandard primer or a break in the fuse column. If the primer was bad fulminate of mercury does not magically reform, if the fuse trail was gapped, once the fire went out it would not magically re-ignite with a bit of friction. As for the detonator... Even EOD stops worrying after two hours. I can't help but wonder if that remark is court allowed 'reasonable deception' designed to frighten the potential jury pool or if this is a true idiot that really believes it.

Zoogster
August 15, 2009, 01:57 PM
The truth is he was storing weapons on par with the small arms of the standing army's infantry. Which was the intent of the 2nd, that all the citizens would forever be a more powerful force than any force that could be raised against them. Both foreign and domestic. That would insure the will of the people prevailed. That was the intent of the founders. Not to hunt or defend against the common thug. To preserve liberty through the capability and threat of resistance.
Yet today that is illegal.

He was not even capable of taking out an APC or tank, nevermind aircraft. Though the C4 would have been good for crafting some shaped charges for armor.
Just barely enough to support a minor role in the insurgency he pictured when the Communists invaded. Certainly no major role.
He didn't even have anything for indirect fire. No mortars or artillery. Yet he planned to do damage to a powerful military that would outgun him in direct engagements?


However it was clearly illegal, the guy knew what he was doing was illegal and he was caught. He acquired those weapons from the only source he could, which means they were stolen from the military.
So he had illegal stolen weapons.
In fact considering the weapon charges carry around a 10 year sentence for violating the NFA, he got much less than possible. Had they called him a "terrorist" it would have likely been life.

He seems to have been a decent guy, just prepared for his own version of a SHTF scenario. Preparations that made him a criminal.


That doesn't mean I want people with high explosives and grenades everywhere. In fact I would much rather all the standing armies of the world that are used to crush the people or enforce the will of tyrants still only used muskets and cannon. Then the people would still only need muskets and cannon to remain free.
Like when the founders wrote the Bill of Rights.

B yond
August 15, 2009, 02:01 PM
Can you take grenades and c4 to those no-questions-asked gun buybacks?

:what:

Truthseeker
August 15, 2009, 02:08 PM
C4 is difficult to detonate. Blasting caps, however, are very easy to detonate. In the Air Force we stored them in separate storage buildings.

Officers'Wife
August 15, 2009, 02:08 PM
A prime example of how stupid laws don't do anything but manufacture criminals out of otherwise law-abiding citizens.

Law-abiding citizens receive stolen goods? The guy was in violation of the law in many respects. Long term storage of even 'safe' explosives such as C-4 is highly regulated and a storage locker doesn't qualify. Storing primary explosives in the same building high explosives is covered in four different regs alone. Such regulations may be a redundancy for those involved in the industry, but they are far from stupid.

Note, when I speak of primary with high, I'm referring to the grenades which combine detonator with the explosive grenite. While I have no training with C-4 I've been told from one who does it would be nearly impossible to detonate C-4 with a grenade unless the explosive was molded around the device.

KevinAbbeyTech
August 15, 2009, 02:11 PM
Can you take grenades and c4 to those no-questions-asked gun buybacks?

It has been done:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2009/04/26/2009-04-26_gun_buyback_bombs_in_bx.html

KevinAbbeyTech
August 15, 2009, 02:12 PM
Most explosives like c4 are highly stable and can even be burned like firewood.
You would be hard pressed to set it off without a blasting cap.

Officers'Wife
August 15, 2009, 02:14 PM
Hi Truthseeker,

C4 is difficult to detonate. Blasting caps, however, are very easy to detonate. In the Air Force we stored them in separate storage buildings.

Industry does as well, in fact, blasters transport detonators in separate vehicles to the job site. The vehicles that carry the detonators generally will not have two way radios to prevent induced current even though the static shunts are installed and the devices are stored in a Faraday cage arrangement.

2RCO
August 15, 2009, 02:17 PM
I'm a huge fan of the 2A and would like to see it fully restored. However the guy bought property that was obviously stolen and illegal. I have no sympathy for the guy especially considering the sentence. He in all likelihood he won't actually serve a year. I'm pretty sure that putting C4 in mini storage isn't a wonderful idea.

ConstitutionCowboy
August 15, 2009, 02:18 PM
On Friday, U.S. District Judge Marsha Pechman sentenced Struve to 48 months in prison, three years of probation and mental-health counseling, saying, "The bottom line is, people simply should not have these things and that's why we have laws against them. Your collections have put other people at risk for decades."

Four things wrong with this. One, the US does not have the power granted to it to punish anyone for this. Two, her personal opinion doesn't belong in any such decisions. Three, the laws he "violated" are all unconstitutional. Fourth, there is no evidence that his arms put anyone at risk.

If he stole all this stuff, or received it knowing it was stolen, he should have been tried in state court.

Oh, and there is a fifth thing wrong with the judge's statement: The laws are not against those things, the laws - aside from being unconstitutional - are against possession or against failure to register, pay a tax, etc.

Woody

There is a current wave of freedom being expressed in this great country of ours. We can join that wave in the political arena now or be forced to join it on the battlefield later.

21bubba
August 15, 2009, 03:27 PM
You know i think that i believe in gun rights as much as the next guy. So i'm sorry to say that this guy is a border line wack job and needed to be caught.

meytind
August 15, 2009, 03:35 PM
The man bought weapons on the black market. Anyone with a shred of common sense could have guessed that the weapons were stolen. That's a serious crime right there.
He also improperly stored explosives including a grenade that did not have a pin inserted. That put other people at risk.

ConstitutionCowboy
August 15, 2009, 04:16 PM
Please splain how you pull the pin on a grenade and it not explode...

Woody

There is a current wave of freedom being expressed in this great country of ours. We can join that wave in the political arena now or be forced to join it on the battlefield later.

61chalk
August 15, 2009, 04:36 PM
Its called a dud, or in this case it said the lever had not sprung away, but
had stayed in place for some reason. The lever has to spring away to set
the fuse to go off in about 5 sec.....sometimes its less, thats why the Army
taught us to hold down on the spoon while throwing down.....threw a bunch of
them an had to do it that way...but in combat I always figured I'd let it cook
at least a second before throwing...remember all those war movies where they
through it back at you.....never saw combat, but have heard stories of the spoon
flipping out of the way an before they could throw it, it went off early.

ScareyH22A
August 15, 2009, 04:48 PM
4 years? Come on...

shibby
August 15, 2009, 05:53 PM
He broke the law. TS.

Also, that article looks like it was written for a high school news paper.

753X0
August 15, 2009, 05:59 PM
61, that's 3-5 sec. Letting an M-67 cook for a sec. doesn't give you much time if you get a quick one.

cchris
August 15, 2009, 06:25 PM
"four counts of possessing unregistered firearms."

Being a resident of SC always makes me laugh at this one.

Also, his collection was pretty sweet:

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/ABPub/2009/08/14/2009665289.jpg

You can't even find MP40's for sale.

daorhgih
August 15, 2009, 06:35 PM
What's the BATFE number (is there a local?) for turning in "BAaaaaad" weapons ?? I have found a case of claymores that "fell off a truck" some 40 years ago.

Erik M
August 15, 2009, 06:39 PM
If it was a locker full of m44's and a can of 7.62x54r I would side with the gentelman, but c4 and gernade launchers? The guys family is from Cali he should have known better.

Deltaboy
August 15, 2009, 07:31 PM
Poor Fellow He really believed that the 2nd Amendment meant Shall not be Infringed meant just that.

ConstitutionCowboy
August 15, 2009, 07:42 PM
61chalk

Ah, I missed that "dud-fired" bit. But, doesn't that mean the fuse burned down but failed to ignite the powder charge in the grenade? Or, that maybe there was no powder charge in it to begin with?

My comment was based on the previous posters comment that there was a grenade without a pin in it.

Woody

2RCO
August 15, 2009, 07:54 PM
What's the BATFE number (is there a local?) for turning in "BAaaaaad" weapons ?? I have found a case of claymores that "fell off a truck" some 40 years ago.

Let us know how that call goes!

jeff-10
August 15, 2009, 07:59 PM
4 years in jail for buying weapons, including explosives, stolen from the military? Blah, he will be out in 6 months.

That is a nice MP40 though.

Clearly the guy is irrational and watched Red Dawn too many times but it makes me wonder how easy is it to buy used military grade weaponry on the black market. Since a court reporter in Washington state doesn't really fit the profile of someone with major underworld connections.

AKElroy
August 15, 2009, 08:01 PM
They tallied two grenade launchers, 54 grenades, six big blocks of C4 plastic explosive,

These items can be owned legally by those buying the proper stamps and complying with applicable storage requirements, or they can be owned illegally and stored irresponsibly. This gentleman chose the latter, and he is going to prison. From a public safety standpoint, a 64 year old crackpot possessing six blocks of 40 year old, potentially degrading C-4 is not the kind of cat I would be thrilled to have on my block.

Before I catch a lot of grief for calling this guy a crackpot, stockpiling weapons to guard against communist takeover is not exactly mainstream. At least not takeover by the Russians. Now the Chinese?....My man cave says BRING IT ON.:D

61chalk
August 15, 2009, 08:53 PM
753X0...believe you are correct on grenade fuse being 3-5 sec. I've been out
for a long time, thats why I said "about 5 sec." A 3 second one would be quick like you said. ConstitutionCowboy, sorry, didn't mean to confuse. Yeah your right if the fuse burned down an doesn't go off, I would call that a "dud", wasn't sure if you knew how a grenade works, the article said, as others posters commented, that the pin was out, but the pin isn't what sets the charge,...you take the pin out an put in back in an its safe again, the pin keeps the spoon or lever attachment in place. You can hold the lever down all day long with the pin removed an its not going to arm. This grenade could of still been in the protective canister, the pin came out, but the case held the lever in place, keeping it from flipping away an arming the grenade fuse.

GRIZ22
August 15, 2009, 09:06 PM
4 years in jail for buying weapons, including explosives, stolen from the military? Blah, he will be out in 6 months.


Not in the Federal system. 4 years is...4 years.

I'm surprised the guy got off so easy.

THE DARK KNIGHT
August 15, 2009, 09:12 PM
OK, so let me get this straight.

Are you guys saying that it is OK to not follow a law that you don't agree with or don't like? That it's OK to own illegal machine guns and grenades because you don't like the law?

orionengnr
August 15, 2009, 09:18 PM
A prime example of how stupid laws don't do anything but manufacture criminals out of otherwise law-abiding citizens.
Are you related to Standing Wolf?
Because only he can condense an entire paragraph into one concisely-worded sentence.
(A talent I admire and wish I possessed...)
However the guy bought property that was obviously stolen and illegal.
And, Counselor, your evidence is... ? :rolleyes:

2RCO
August 15, 2009, 09:18 PM
Dark Knight--I hate the laws but still follow them and believe for the good of the cause we all should (as to not end up in jail or to be marginalized as idiots)---Along with this I am doing what I can legally to get them changed.

Are you guys saying that it is OK to not follow a law that you don't agree with or don't like? That it's OK to own illegal machine guns and grenades because you don't like the law?

Although I think others on here are saying exactly that.

THE DARK KNIGHT
August 15, 2009, 09:21 PM
Although I think others are saying exactly that.

Yes, yes they are.

So much for "The High Road"

2RCO
August 15, 2009, 09:28 PM
I personally believe there is nothing wrong with a law abiding citizen owning a full auto MP40. Unfortunately without proper paperwork that equals jailtime and will likely render you unable to possess any firearms for the rest of your life after prison. To get the 2A restored we need gun owners walking around and able to vote so lets pass on the Civil Disobedience for now.

The really craptastic part of this is that I was talking to a family member that owns more guns than 99% of the population (all sporting and handguns) that really doesn't believe anyone needs an AK(semi auto or otherwise) or AR15 and that they should be banned. I almost fell on the floor. I respect this guy and he has mucho gun knowledge but the viewpoint floors me.

rbernie
August 15, 2009, 09:29 PM
I've read this thread twice, and I haven't seen that yet.

I did see a bunch of comments complaining about the 'victimless' nature of the crime, but I didn't see anyone actively advocating breaking the law.

753X0
August 15, 2009, 09:58 PM
753X0...believe you are correct on grenade fuse being 3-5 sec. I've been out
for a long time, thats why I said "about 5 sec." A 3 second one would be quick like you said.

61, didn't mean to nitpik, but hollywood has shown actors allowing them to cook for a couple seconds for dramatic effect. Just don't want some young recruit who watched too many movies blowing himself up. Although when they train with M-67's they learn real quick that those suckers are something you just want to pull the pin and throw. They pack a hell of a wallup.

JWF III
August 15, 2009, 09:58 PM
Are you guys saying that it is OK to not follow a law that you don't agree with or don't like? That it's OK to own illegal machine guns and grenades because you don't like the law?

No. What I'm saying is that the 4 years in jail accomplishes nothing that just probation would accomplish. All the 4 years will do is add extra burden to the corrections system. He will be taking the place of someone that truly would be a danger to society.

Blah, he will be out in 6 months.


This isn't some gang banger that might actually hurt someone. He will do 4 years. The previously mentioned would be out in 6 months, and back at his "occupation".

Wyman

ConstitutionCowboy
August 15, 2009, 10:09 PM
Are you guys saying that it is OK to not follow a law that you don't agree with or don't like? That it's OK to own illegal machine guns and grenades because you don't like the law?

It's not so much as not liking the law as it is the law being unconstitutional. The law infringes upon the Right to Keep and Bear Arms in violation of the Second Amendment. Those in government broke the supreme law of the land when this law was passed. Those in government now are just as guilty for not repealing those laws.

Woody

There is a current wave of freedom being expressed in this great country of ours. We can join that wave in the political arena now or be forced to join it on the battlefield later.

THE DARK KNIGHT
August 15, 2009, 10:36 PM
It's not so much as not liking the law as it is the law being unconstitutional. The law infringes upon the Right to Keep and Bear Arms in violation of the Second Amendment. Those in government broke the supreme law of the land when this law was passed. Those in government now are just as guilty for not repealing those laws.


So it's OK to violate the NFA/GCA/etc?

rbernie
August 15, 2009, 10:57 PM
No, it's not. Laws that are unjust are changed via legal means.

And that's enough of the thread drift into the legalities of the NFA.

THE DARK KNIGHT
August 15, 2009, 11:00 PM
No, it's not. Laws that are unjust are changed via legal means.

And that's enough of the thread drift into the legalities of the NFA.

Really not trying to be a jerk here. But how is discussing NFA a thread drift? Isn't the "weapons charges" he is facing the NFA violation for having unregistered machine guns?

Personally, I feel 4 years is too little. He broke the law and should be punished to the fullest extent. Nice guy or not, ownership of these weapons in his circumstances is a crime.

And to the guy suggesting this is "civil disobedience" all I can say is wow...

RP88
August 15, 2009, 11:10 PM
the big deal here seems to be the explosives. I can't say I disagree with that notion. That much C4 would have left a pretty nice dent in the Earth, among other things.

But, the man had a clean record and showed no intent to hurt anyone. Four years is way too much. I have a feeling that he will get out on a very strict parole/probation much sooner, though - or at least hope so.

But, he did violate the law. There is no arguing that. No matter how much we disagree with that, the fact is: the law is the law.

Erik M
August 15, 2009, 11:11 PM
If i were the judge prosiding over the case i would have ordered him to pay the court costs for the trial, possibly have levied a fine, and confiscated all the weapons. Putting a 61 year old man in prison that has no criminal history and no evil intent is absolutely ludacrist.

ConstitutionCowboy
August 15, 2009, 11:18 PM
Really not trying to be a jerk here. But how is discussing NFA a thread drift? Isn't the "weapons charges" he is facing the NFA violation for having unregistered machine guns?

Precisely. Ronald Struve is now in a position to challenge those laws. He has standing. Too bad he broke other law(theft and/or receiving stolen property). This would make his case very similar to US v. Miller, but with the proper backing, could go a long way to unfettering our RKBA. Struve will still(most likely) end up in prison for the theft and/or receiving stolen property.

Woody

THE DARK KNIGHT
August 15, 2009, 11:34 PM
theft and/or receiving stolen property

Exactly, how anyone could feel sorry for this guy, no idea.

Rshooter
August 15, 2009, 11:59 PM
My question is how was it so easy for this guy to get a hold of so much junk without coming on the radar? If he did it there's gotta be a hundred or so bad guys out there with this junk. They need to hire this guy as an informant, if he still remembers.

Officers'Wife
August 16, 2009, 12:33 AM
This would make his case very similar to US v. Miller

Miller was a bully and drunk. Unfortunately, under an adversarial system the only way laws can be examined for constitutionality is for someone to break them. Laws tend to be broken by unsavory characters. Miranda was a two bit punk but managed to help define the rights of the accused. Unfortunately, since the administrative branch is unwilling to have the firearms laws examined too closely the theft charges are likely to be the only ones the man will ever have the benefit of trial by jury.

Skykomish
August 16, 2009, 02:10 AM
Precisely. Ronald Struve is now in a position to challenge those laws. He has standing. Too bad he broke other law(theft and/or receiving stolen property). This would make his case very similar to US v. Miller, but with the proper backing, could go a long way to unfettering our RKBA. Struve will still(most likely) end up in prison for the theft and/or receiving stolen property.

"Struve pleaded guilty in March to one count of possessing plastic explosives and four counts of possessing unregistered firearms. In return, the government dropped more than 100 other counts against him."

He can't challenge anything.....

stickhauler
August 16, 2009, 02:41 AM
However in answer to your question plenty of people were at risk. six pounds of C4 can make a pretty large firecracker, and storing it in a public setting (rented locker) is irresponsible and negligent, exposing other customers of the business, and the business itself to a threat that shouldn't be present.

Huh? You have no experience with plastic explosives I take it? Unless the stuff had blasting caps in it, there was no danger to anyone. You can burn C-4 without it blowing up, just don't stomp on the flame to put it out. The grenades could become unstable, but the explosives weren't a danger.

Mp7
August 16, 2009, 07:47 AM
The right to hoard arms and maintain a well regulated one man militia.

:)

JohnBT
August 16, 2009, 08:23 AM
He forgot to pay the bill? Duh. I wonder how close to the C4 he kept the blasting caps?

"plastic explosives, silencers, blasting caps and detonator cord."


15 pounds of C4 blowing up a bus in slow motion...

www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYjzIMLQYVs&feature=related

Drgong
August 16, 2009, 09:05 AM
If anything else, that was unsafe storage...

(reminder to self... pay mini storage bill...)

bdickens
August 16, 2009, 09:17 AM
Jorg wrote: Quote:
A prime example of how stupid laws don't do anything but manufacture criminals out of otherwise law-abiding citizens.

You mean "stupid laws" like those that prohibit you from buying stolen military weapons on the black market?

I'm having a hard time having much sympathy for the guy. It's not like he didn't know what he was doing.

No, I meant the stupid laws that drove that stuff into the black market in the first place.

krs
August 16, 2009, 10:30 AM
It wasn't so many years ago that you could buy inert grenades from places like The Sportsman's Guide (amongst dozens of others). Who determined that the "pin out" grenade had ever been a live grenade?

Before 1968 it was legal to buy and own all sorts of weaponry that cannot be legally possessed by most residents of this country today. The 1968 GCA changed many things, so when exactly did this fellow buy his stash during the 'Vietnam Era"? How is it that members of this forum judge this guy by their subscription to the law as it is now?

They sure did determine quickly that 50 years ago some of these weapons were stolen. Seems like the recordkeeping ability must not have needed the very expensive enhancements instituted since the bginning of the use of computers by federal and law enforcement agencies. When did they become computer literate again? 1995?

Bought on the black market? Did he say that? Considering that most any gun type could be purchased through the mails, are those things concluded from the fellow's own statements taken as factual? I thought that they were considering him to be borderline whacked.

I wish I had a dollar for every cup of coffee and can of beans and weanies I've heated up with a pinch of C4 and my zippo lighter.

Hmm, I served with a guy from Washington state named Jim O'brien. Good friend. Nah, couldn't be him - beav liked his pot too much to be a retired sheriff.

He probably should have gone to someone to ask what could be done with his goods within the current structure, but heck, he evidently forgot he had the stash.

61chalk
August 16, 2009, 11:14 AM
krs, I agree he should of got a lawyer, the lawyer probably could of worked out something with the authorities which could of included a better sentance outcome or even better. You can still buy those dis-armed grenades, they seem to be everywhere.
However remember this case probably took months to make it to trial, they had plenty
of time to look over records an see if the grenades were real or not, an so forth. We would have to read the trial papers to see all the facts, but seems what we have read so far, including the convection, comes out looking pretty guilty, remember he had months to prepare also, hopefully they went over everything, he may very well admitted alot we don't know about. He got 4 years, so that leads me to believe he co-operated, just my opinion...if it had been a younger guy, or skinhead they probably would of given him a ton more years..

ConstitutionCowboy
August 16, 2009, 12:30 PM
"Struve pleaded guilty in March to one count of possessing plastic explosives and four counts of possessing unregistered firearms. In return, the government dropped more than 100 other counts against him."

He can't challenge anything.....

That would seem to put an end to it, I guess.

Woody

Suicide*Ride
August 16, 2009, 12:47 PM
You know.... I've been thinking about getting a job as a storage unit Mgr. too! :p:D

It's really a shame. Today, he's labeled a felon who owned & stored illegal weapons & high explosives. Had the SHTF before he was found out, he'd be a hero! :banghead:

I'll bet the look on the faces of the folks who opened the storage unit were priceless!! :what:

SR :D

DRZinn
August 16, 2009, 02:49 PM
Are you guys saying that it is OK to not follow a law that you don't agree with or don't like? That it's OK to own illegal machine guns and grenades because you don't like the law?Well, I wasn't going to actually say that, but since you brought it up.... Yes.

The fact that the munitions were (as far as we know) stolen, on the other hand, makes him morally wrong and he should be punished as such.

rbernie
August 16, 2009, 03:00 PM
And that's enough of the thread drift into the legalities of the NFA. Dang - what part of this was not clear to y'all?

Like it or not - we are a society of laws, and we will not debate in this forum whether or not those laws are just or unjust. They simply are what they are, and all the bellyachin' in the world won't change them.

If you don't like the NFA - move your fanny over to Activism Planning and get crackin' to get the law changed. But so long as it's the law of the land - we will respect that law in this forum.

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