Divorce and Guns taken away


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Burl
August 18, 2009, 08:01 AM
I am a Texas CHL holder and an NRA member. I do not have any gun, drug, alcohol or domestic abuse issues, arrests, etc. I am going through an ugly divorce and have a wife that is afraid of guns. Guns were brought up in our Temporary Orders hearing and have been included in the Temporary Orders.
The wording is as follows: "There is a mutual injunction as to persons therefore the Father is not to have in his possession or control a firearm and he is placed on notice that he is not to have in his possession any firearm until such time as the injunction is dissolved. The firearms may be delivered to a third party for storage such as paternal grand parent."

I don't believe there is justification to do this but it is too expensive to fight and not as high a priority as custody of my children. I am now not going to be able to participate in dove season and duck season because of his decision. I enjoy my outdoor activities in the Fall and now a couple of my favorite pastimes have been taken away.

In addition, I am now disarmed and my father-in-law has threatened, in the past, to "take me out" if I did anything he did not like.

What is the best course of action, that does not involve breaking the bank with attorney fees, to get my guns back?

Thanks for any input,

Mike Ives

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TexasRifleman
August 18, 2009, 08:11 AM
What is the best course of action, that does not involve breaking the bank with attorney fees, to get my guns back?

My opinion? Get the divorce over and done with then move on.

Get rid of the guns for now, let a friend keep them or whatever. Don't risk violating the court order, just get it over with as quickly as possible.

Just my 2 cents.

She decides to get nasty and accuse you of any violence and your loss of guns will last much much longer than one dove season.

You don't want anywhere near Lautenberg:

The act bans shipment, transport, ownership and use of guns or ammunition by individuals convicted of misdemeanor or felony domestic violence, or who is under a restraining (protection) order for domestic abuse. The act also makes it unlawful to knowingly sell or give a firearm or ammunition to such person.

There is some fine print in Lautenberg, but it can be a very nasty law.

Lay low and get it over with seems to be the best move.

Old Fuff
August 18, 2009, 08:25 AM
Well first of all the court does have the authority too do what it did. However, as you may not have noticed, the order is a temporary one. This means that in the near future another hearing must be held, and that's when you (or better yet, your lawyer) gets a chance to get your side of the story on record.

Your lawyer can also file a motion, asking for relief from the firearms clause. In it he can show you’re past (clean) history with no evidence of domestic violence. He can ask that your soon-to-be ex-wife be required to show proof (beyond her unsupported word) that she is endangered. He can claim that her desire to block you from having or using firearms is based on vindictiveness, and not threat, and her lawyer will have to convince the court that it is otherwise.

What should you do? Well the first thing you should do - if you haven't already - is talk to an attorney who is a specialist in divorce cases.

Mp7
August 18, 2009, 08:33 AM
i am sooo not marrying!

+1 on staying quiet and complying.

Can´t you go hunting with friends
and use theirs in the field?
Would be a shame to feel deprived of favourite pasttimes.

beatcop
August 18, 2009, 09:07 AM
How long will this process take? My advice, take up golf and be Mr. Rogers...no sense in attracting undue attention. As soon as the ex sees that you actually care about a particular issue, she may start some drama.

scottaschultz
August 18, 2009, 09:26 AM
In the words of my ex's attorney, "Fair is a weather report!"

This only goes to prove that the person who initiates the proceedings has the upper hand. Of course I do not know the circumstance, but it is possible your soon-to-be ex went to her lawyer and said that you had guns and that she did not trust you. All her lawyer has to do at that point is go to a judge and say that her client believes that her spouse might not be trusted with firearms.


Like others have said, just let it go and let it pass quietly.

Scott

(OK, I deserve the last edit by rbernie!) Me, bitter? No way!

offthepaper
August 18, 2009, 09:32 AM
I went through the same exact thing in my divorce (and then some).

Texas is giving you sound advise. let a friend or relative take control of the guns. Yes, you will be deprived of your pasttime, yes, it's a PITA. But better that than lose your freedom for violating a court order. If you choose to go that route, be prepared for the local LEO's to be holding your guns instaed of a friend/relative (good luck getting them back from them) It's just one step in a long painful process.

BTW
Be the one to show the court that you are indeed the calm cooperating one in this mess. It will be to your benefit later in the proceedings. Lawyer up, and let him do the talking.
The crazy thing about my divorce was it seemed odd to me that the judge ruled that her jewlery were "gifts" from me , but my guns were "community property" :cuss:.

But fear not, the advantage of getting this over with and still retain your right to own guns is that.................. from now on, you won't have to clear your next FA purchase through her or anyone else. You likely will end up with a much nicer collection than you presently have.
I did. :D

Good luck

Yo Mama
August 18, 2009, 09:41 AM
Man, like every other week a new post on a crazy ex. Either a restraining order, or they go nuts and ruin a good gun.

My advise: run like hell

However: You can be happy in the future, and will. You sound like a great guy, and I'm sure you'll find a sane pro-gun gal.

jmorris
August 18, 2009, 09:48 AM
As soon as the ex sees that you actually care about a particular issue, she may start some drama.

I agree with this one.

I’d keep my mouth shut or she might want the half of them she is entitled to, out of spite.

I’m not sure what’s legal now that this has already started but I’d have “sold” them all to a friend already, $1 sounds fair to me.

HoosierQ
August 18, 2009, 09:50 AM
Yeah...don't be hiding a gun or something like that. That'll be playing right into you "opponent's" hands.

I have aquantainces that have had similar episodes. One, from the wife perspective where the ex-hubby was "crazy". His brother-in-law took possession of the guns for him and after all the smoke cleared, he got them back.

In another, a fella had some sort of bitter divorce. Not real sure if the guy was perceived as a threat to himself or somebody else. His brother took his guns and he also got them back.

The consistent factor...both complied with the orders, neither put up much of a fuss, and both got their guns back.

I am sure others have episodes to recount that ended differently but these are my two.

Grey54956
August 18, 2009, 10:07 AM
Give your guns to a friend for safe keeping until this whole thing is straightened out.

If possible, see if you can crash at another buddy's place for the duration of the divorce. Make sure that this buddy can vouch for your whereabouts much of the time, just in case she decides to play the Lautenberg Shuffle on you. "No, your honor, I did not beat or threaten my wife. My buddy and I were at the local bowling alley at the time as he will attest to. That woman is a liar."

If her father threatens you, bring this up in court. If he is doing it on her behalf, it will be difficult for her to play the Lautenberg card.

Walk the straight and narrow until this thing is done.

rbernie
August 18, 2009, 10:08 AM
As a reminder to all - the issue is what to do with the guns and not about what to do with the soon-to-be-ex. I've already had to address several instances of bad behavior in this thread.

If you wanna really help address the OP - keep it on topic and keep it civil. If you can't do that - don't post.

Fryerpower
August 18, 2009, 10:13 AM
Is there a more formal place you can store them? Do local gun ranges have storage that you can rent? Maybe giving the key to your lawyer for safe keeping?

(I am personally interested in the answer for off-topic reasons. I was considering a job in ********** and I have several guns that are not legal there...like my .22 semi-automatic rifle with the under the barrel non-detachable tube magazine. It holds something like 17 Long Rifle bullets. It must be so much more dangerous with those 7 extra bullets in there! :rolleyes:)

-Jim

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
August 18, 2009, 10:13 AM
What TexasRifleman said.

Ghost Walker
August 18, 2009, 10:49 AM
Now, I can't tell you what to do; and, of course, IANAL. However if I had my own divorce to go through again, I'd use some of the same dirty tricks on her that my first wife used on me.

Most of the time divorce is an ugly business. As good old Winston Churchill once remarked; (And, I paraphrase.) 'If you want to be guaranteed to win, you must be even MORE ruthless than your opponent.'

Your FIL slipped up when he made that threatening remark. IMO, you would do well to make a public issue out of that threat. (Besides, how do you know it wasn't entirely sincere?)

Old Fuff
August 18, 2009, 10:52 AM
Readers should note the exact language in the court's order:

The wording is as follows: "There is a mutual injunction as to persons therefore the Father is not to have in his possession or control a firearm and he is placed on notice that he is not to have in his possession any firearm until such time as the injunction is dissolved. The firearms may be delivered to a third party for storage such as paternal grand parent."

Therefor the O.P. cannot have a firearm, his own, one borrowed, one rented, nothing.

This may be seen as right or wrong, but it doesn't change the circumstances:

No guns whatsoever, until the order is lifted.

peyton
August 18, 2009, 11:15 AM
Take a breath, follow the court order, finish divorce proceedings. There will be other hunting seasons and time to go to the range. I would also suggest a formal document listing guns and serial numbers, have your trusted friend who is storing them for you to sign document in front of a Notary Public. This way you have proof no firearms are in your possession.

Cool is the word, to the ex and the ex's family. FOCUS on your kids and my mother in law told me "You might get rid of the wife, but you do not get rid of the family". Try to focus on the positive for the kid's sake.
You want the judge to have no doubt you can follow instructions and this will help when discussing what is best for the kids future.

eatont9999
August 18, 2009, 11:16 AM
And have your friend pay you with a certified check. Also, provide him with a receipt with all the items and serial numbers listed. Keep a copy too. Hopefully he will later sell them back to you.

stchman
August 18, 2009, 11:16 AM
Yes, just divorce the woman and get it over with.

Take your firearms over to a good friend's house for storage.

I would report the father-in-law to the same judge and get a restraining order put against him.

Since you are an NRA member call the NRA. They have lawyers to fight for the rights of gun owners.

PTK
August 18, 2009, 11:26 AM
The crazy thing about my divorce was it seemed odd to me that the judge ruled that her jewlery were "gifts" from me , but my guns were "community property"

Unfortunate perhaps, but common. Similarly, my truck was a "gift" from my ex, while all of her expensive cooking equipment was "community". :D


Anyway, having gone through just about the same thing (sudden divorce, loss of right to bear arms), I'd say comply with the order, get a good lawyer, and get a divorce ASAP. It may get worse if you don't just get it over with, friend. :)

KenWP
August 18, 2009, 11:31 AM
All it says is the guns have to be out of his possesion not not own them. Possesion and owning are two different things. My brother had to hold my guns for a year for the same reasons untill my ex moved out of the country and she had a 10 year restriction of firearms placed on her.
I have heard a 100 and 10 husbands say they are not violent if I have heard one and you never know which one will go off the deep end so everybody has to be treated the same. Just do what you have to do and play the waiting game untill things settle down. There is nothing like a woman scorned as the saying goes and it also applies to men being scorned also. A year with out hunting beats a lifetime with out guns period.

ijosef
August 18, 2009, 11:38 AM
Yeah, the judge is dead wrong to deprive you of your 2nd Amendment rights, but he has the legal authority to do so. Not all law is good law, especially when it's an affront to natural law, but this is not a battle worth fighting.

As has been said numerous times, get through the divorce, get your guns back, and try to move on.

Noxx
August 18, 2009, 11:57 AM
In the words of my ex's attorney, "Fair is a weather report!"

Reminded me of a favorite Wambaugh quote from The Choirboys, "Hey, the Marquis of Queensbury is just some queer over on eighth street". Unfortunately, in divorce, as in a gunfight, "fair" is whatever you can get away with. Sorry to hear about the mess, hang in there.

ConstitutionCowboy
August 18, 2009, 12:01 PM
I'm with Tex and Dr. Tad.

Don't go hunting and use someone else's gun as MP7 thought to ask about. You'd be in violation of the court order and in some really deep do-do. Getting your guns back would be much more difficult.

You are now in a position to challenge the Lautenburg Amendment if you so choose. All it'll take is a few million dollars and a gaggle of lawyers.

Woody

There is a current wave of freedom being expressed in this great country of ours. We can join that wave in the political arena now or be forced to join it on the battlefield later.

ojibweindian
August 18, 2009, 12:07 PM
I was in the exact same boat back in 2000. First thing my lawyer did was to get a hearing on the order of protection and injunction against my possession of my guns. He was able to get the order of protection and injunction thrown out because my ex and her attorney were unable to show that I was a threat.

Other advice to you; if legal in your area, record every phone call between your ex and yourself, take copious and detailed notes on EVERY dealing that you have with your estranged wife, and NEVER EVER put yourself in a position to be alone with her; have a friend come with you, as a witness, every time you must see your estranged wife in person.

If you receive any threats from any member of her family, capture VERBATIM who said it, what was said, how it was said, when it was said, etc, then report it to the authorities. Never take any threat lightly. Start with your father in law.

You're going to need a ton of emotional/spiritual support. Divorce is bad enough, but a divorce AND custody fight is absolutely hellish on fathers. Don't become a recluse. Family and friends are extremely important in maintaining an emotional center. If you go to church, keep going! God will see you through this as he saw me through my divorce.

Finally, every chance you get, do stuff with your kids. Go to the park, go fish, or just watch tv. Provide for them the best "normalcy" you can.

I shall pray for your children and you; may God's peace see you through this trying time.

rondog
August 18, 2009, 12:08 PM
I think I'd definitely get a restraining order against the f.i.l., just to c.y.a. Also puts a negative onus on her side of the battle. As for your guns, find a trusted relative or friend to place them with, and get an itemized receipt to prove that they're not in your possession anymore.

A digital pocket voice recorder might not be a bad investment either, if the f.i.l. is prone to making stupid statements.

Max C.
August 18, 2009, 12:08 PM
He probably doesn't need to sell the guns. He just can't have them in his place of residence or on his person. Possession and ownership are not the same in the law. For example, in stolen property cases, if someone purchases stolen goods they most certainly possessed the object but they never never owned it.

"The firearms may be delivered to a third party for storage such as paternal grand parent."

Basically he just needs to give them to someone else who doesn't live within walking distance.

That said, one way to protect the guns (though it seems unlikely they'd be awarded to her) would be to sell them and then the court would only award a portion or their whole value but there can be other sticky things that come from that. Depending on your state's law, that could be illegal... soooo

Talk to your lawyer, not the forum haha.

copper4262
August 18, 2009, 12:14 PM
Sad situation - your getting good advice here-
Best thing to do is follow the order- talk with your lawyer about your states civil laws regarding property in a marrige- you need to find out if you can "sell" the guns to a friend- becareful cause you might need proof of the sale and the amounts- be prepared to give something up in order to keep your guns- if you can get away with it "sell" them - if not cut your losses and be prepaired to give her half-
As far as not losing the permenant right to own guns- you need toi stay away from her as much as possible - you don't want any sort of confrontation with her- it will get twisted around against you- move out- don't give her a reason to scream domestic violence- all it takes is an accusatuon- she doesn't actually need to be hurt or in danger for the courts to find you guilty - If you are even accused of violence u can kiss your guns and more importantly your kids good-bye

A few months ago I had a man bring in his rather large collection of guns in to the dept. I currently work for- I had to log in and secure 20years worth of family heirlooms and prized possessions- this man turned in ancient rifles from his grandfathers, band new AR's, and everything else in between- there had been some threats made and the judge ordered he turn them in - within a few days the couple was breaking the restraining order and seeing each other again- of course it wasn't long before another accusation was made - I don't know if he hurt her or not- or even if he would- But I do know that now he will never legally own a gun - and the mans not even 40yrs old

So be very very careful- don't give her a reason to want your guns- -dont give her a reason to take them-

As far as her father goes- if he's made any recent threats etc you need to report him and get a restraining order- if nothing recent then tread lightly until the courts have run their course and the dust settles - you can always deal with that issue later

Most important - GET A LAWYER!

Cosmoline
August 18, 2009, 12:14 PM
Break the bank and get a lawyer

This area of law in particular has many, many local variations in custom and practice. What works well in one jurisdiction before one set of judges will fail in another. If this is a contested matter, and it sure sounds like it is, you are much better off getting a local lawyer who has experience in domestic disputes.

627PCFan
August 18, 2009, 12:23 PM
How can the judge legally remove his second amendment rights without a conviction in a court of law?

rbernie
August 18, 2009, 12:34 PM
How can the judge legally remove his second amendment rights without a conviction in a court of law?The answer is posted in post #2 - the Restraining order (RO) acts as the lever by which the RKBA is suspended.

Break the bank and get a lawyer

This area of law in particular has many, many local variations in custom and practice. What works well in one jurisdiction before one set of judges will fail in another. If this is a contested matter, and it sure sounds like it is, you are much better off getting a local lawyer who has experience in domestic disputes.And this is the answer. You cannot rely upon Internet advice in this matter.

You just can't.

lipadj46
August 18, 2009, 12:36 PM
Divorces are a bitch. My ex took my dog away, yes my effin' dog I raised from a puppy. I bought another though and got a new better not crazy wife. My ex was Jewish and Peurto Rican and a lawyer and let me tell you that can be a nasty combination (no offense to any jewish puerto rican lawyers out there).

Best advice from someone who has been there is get a good lawyer, pay the money and get the eff out. Don't dwell on the money figure it as being a fee to get your life back.

offthepaper
August 18, 2009, 12:48 PM
Good Advice:

Like others have said, just let it go and let it pass quietly.
Yeah...don't be hiding a gun or something like that. That'll be playing right into you "opponent's" hands.

Walk the straight and narrow until this thing is done.
Therefor the O.P. cannot have a firearm, his own, one borrowed, one rented, nothing.

This may be seen as right or wrong, but it doesn't change the circumstances:

No guns whatsoever, until the order is lifted.
You want the judge to have no doubt you can follow instructions and this will help when discussing what is best for the kids future.
Take a breath, follow the court order, finish divorce proceedings
I'd say comply with the order, get a good lawyer, and get a divorce ASAP. It may get worse if you don't just get it over with, friend.
Don't go hunting and use someone else's gun as MP7 thought to ask about. You'd be in violation of the court order and in some really deep do-do. Getting your guns back would be much more difficult.

I think I'd definitely get a restraining order against the f.i.l., just to c.y.a.
Most important - GET A LAWYER!


Bad Advice:

I’m not sure what’s legal now that this has already started but I’d have “sold” them all to a friend already, $1 sounds fair to me.
However if I had my own divorce to go through again, I'd use some of the same dirty tricks on her that my first wife used on me.
How can the judge legally remove his second amendment rights without a conviction in a court of law?
maybe not right, but this happens many, many times every day in court rooms across the country. Obey the court orders. Remember cooler heads will come out on top in the end.

Divorces are at very least difficult. It's sometimes hard to picture your life ever being the same, but it will be or better down the road. Unless........you make a total mess by not keeping your cool and following court orders. The failure to follow those orders can have negetive effects on yourself that could follow you for the rest of your life. Guns and divorces are a tricky mix. If the ex decides she wants to burn you, you may be amazed at how easy it is for her to do it. A simple accusation, trumped up charges supported by false witness (I know this one first hand).
Keep it cool, keep it legal.
Again, good luck.

Quoheleth
August 18, 2009, 12:54 PM
Whether you sell, "sell," or put the guns into temporary possession of a friend or family member I might suggest:
- recording each & every serial number
- photographing each gun, left side & right side along with distinguishing marks/features
- call your insurance agent and take out a rider on those guns that are not under your roof (best be all of 'em!), just in case the unthinkable happens
- especially if it's a temporary possession thing, have your friend sign a receipt for holding the guns so that if something happens, you have a document that they were in his possession.

All usual caveats (IINAL, etc....) apply here. But this advice was given to me anytime I loan personal items to friends/neighbors for extended length of time (i.e., more than a day or two).

Q

mljdeckard
August 18, 2009, 01:03 PM
You want justice? go to a brothel. You want to get sc*****? Go to court.

As the othes have said it's temporary. You may not like it, but the end truth is, judges have immunity from all actions they impose in the course of their duties. Bite your tongue, nod your head, wait for the edict. It will fade in significance in a few years.

Phatty
August 18, 2009, 01:39 PM
Unless the judge is a complete jerk (possible) it should be fairly easy and routine, if represented by an attorney, to carve out an exception in the judge's order to allow you to participate in the hunting season. You would simply file a motion requesting that the judge modify his previous order to allow you to possess firearms for the purpose of hunting when not in the presence of your children.

scottaschultz
August 18, 2009, 02:01 PM
A little off topic, but...

How can the judge legally remove his second amendment rights without a conviction in a court of law?

While The Constitution grants you many personal freedoms, the laws are written to (theoretically) safeguard society as a whole. I am sure you will agree that not every citizen of these United States should be able to carry a lethal weapon. When people go to prison for certain crimes or are committed to mental institutions, they give up some of their freedoms.

This is just like that 1st Amendment argument that says you can't yell, "MOVIE!!!" in a crowded firehouse... or something like that.

No, the OP hasn't been convicted of a crime, but the judge is responsible for safeguarding society and sometimes this trumps The Constitution. But that is also why there are cases in courts every day questioning the constitutionality of certain actions by courts.

Scott

RobNDenver
August 18, 2009, 02:39 PM
Burl, I am sorry that you are going through this, and reiterate what nearly every one on this board has said.

It's a temporary problem, unless you somehow get tagged for Domestic Violence. So keep yourself out of situations where you can be attacked and defend yourself, since you know that your unhinged wife and family will be looking to provoke a response from you and use it against you. You need to be sure that your divorce attorney is giving you the very best advice. That means that if you don't have a lawyer, you find a specialist in domestic relations and listen carefully to his counsel. Keep a bound book or other journal that describes any misconduct, threats, or misrepresentation made by your spouse, her friends or family in chronological order.

If your lawyer says report the threat by the FIL, then do so in as matter of fact a way that you can. Show local law enforcement that you are a calm and reasonable person, and if your wife or FIL is volatile and reacts when contacted by the police even better for you. Show up at the station in a pair of slacks and an sport shirt, make sure that the police view you as a good guy. Enough of them have been through this, that they will empathize with you if you show that you are more like them and the wife is not a sympathetic figure.

Expect that the kids will report everything that happens at your house, from second hand smoke to an occasional beer you might drink. Expect that your ex will attempt to magnify your conduct, and trivialize her shortcomings. So don't give her anything to hang her hat on or mischaracterize to the court.

Good luck man. This will pass.

RP88
August 18, 2009, 03:54 PM
you might as well break the bank with a lawyer now in order to get your guns back and your ex-wife out of your face than to have to break the bank with a lawyer later after you have already been abused by the system and don't have your guns or any of your other stuff, for that matter.

Honestly, either way you look at it: you're gonna have to break the bank. Might as well do it now before the real damage is done. At least, that is how I look at it.

HOME DEPOT GEORGE
August 18, 2009, 03:56 PM
I'm having a similar problem with a NJ order From 12 years ago. Nj is 1 of 2 states that issues FRO's never to go away without consent or lawyer involvement. This is a link I found intreresting and disturbing at the same time http://www.fathermag.com/0901/divorce_restraining_order/

Bruno2
August 18, 2009, 05:35 PM
As a resident of the great state of Oklahoma we have similar gun laws as they do down in Tx . The advice being given from people stating to sell the guns to a friend for an undisclosed amount of money is definitely worth asking your lawyer about . This will in turn kill two birds with one stone : 1 being rid of the posession part and 2 keeping the ex from getting her half of a gun collection that doesnt mean anything to her other than trying to hurt you . In our states their are NO GUN REGISTRATION LAWS other than the initial purchase from an FFL dealer . Who I sell my guns to and what guns I buy cash and carry are nobodies business but MINE . I would hold my cards about what guns I own and make her attorney provide a list of the guns that she thinks you own (my wife couldnt begin to make a list ). A receipt would be nice , but , make individual receipts for every gun and dont show any that are not requested . We have more freedom of firearms in our states than just about any of the others and I would use it to my advantage . take a pass on the upland birds and waterfowl this season until the injunction gets removed . I would even ask my attorney if I were a lifetime combination holder if I could show the season I was forced to forfeit could be recovered in the divorce settlement . I am sure that if you are going through a divorce that you already have an attorney . Make him work for his money b/c they charge and arm and a leg and it is" because of them that we need them".

Old Fuff
August 18, 2009, 07:17 PM
Burl:

Many of the injunctions issued at the time a divorce petition is filed forbid either party from selling assets, withdrawing money from bank accounts, and that sort of thing. Before you sell anything you’d better ask an attorney exactly what you can and can’t do. Failing that, read ALL OF THE FINE PRINT in the paperwork you have been served or otherwise received.

Note that the court’s order gave you permission to let certain relatives store your firearms, but said nothing that would allow you to sell them.

At some point both parties will submit lists of property, and both can – either individually or through an attorney – challenge the other party’s list concerning what is or isn’t on them. If your accounting doesn’t include the guns, and that point is challenged you’d better to be able to produce them.

There is no faster way to turn a judge against you then to start playing games!

Art Eatman
August 18, 2009, 07:35 PM
"What is the best course of action, that does not involve breaking the bank with attorney fees, to get my guns back?"

From the other part of the OP, the guns aren't gone or lost; it's just that the use is denied until after the divorce.

Any motion to gain access for hunting will ignite furor and counter-motions to deny. Best to let sleeping dogs snore. Barking Is Bad.

I'd sit tight and keep my mouth and billfold shut to the greatest extent possible until the divorce is final. When not at work I'd either be at home or at a public library. Minimize opportunities for anybody to claim anything. Right now, that's a more important form of self defense than a CHL ever thought of being. Hey, there'll be hunting seasons in 2010; really there will.

WingRider
August 18, 2009, 07:55 PM
Burl,
Sorry to hear of your situation.+1 to the advice to stay cool and get thru the divorce. Concentrate on the kids, this will effect them more than you being temporarily without your guns.:(
Just an aside, I'm presently splitting up with my wife. Amicably;).Even gave her a S&W 4006 to keep her safe(with the stipulation I get it back if/when she doesn't want it).:cool:
Hang in there

Burl
August 18, 2009, 08:00 PM
Lots of great replies here! Rest assured I have already surrendered the guns to my mother's house and have no intention of violating the court order as my children are far too important. The frustrating thing is that I just got my CHL in the mail about a week ago, after a 6 month wait, because of the back-log. Hopefully my wife doesn't try to get an injunction against fishing hooks.
The comment from her father was about 9 years ago right before we got married. I should have known then that the family had issues. I am not sure the threat would be taken seriously now but it was made all the same.
I am trying to take The High Road ;) in relation to my wife and just do as the court instructs me so I can get this thing over with as quickly as possible.


Thanks for all the input!

Mike Ives

justice4all
August 18, 2009, 09:14 PM
I, for one, think that the judge exceeded his authority when he issued the order. Some posters above have stated that the judge is somehow not bound by the Constitution, but that is not true. The judge couldn't legally order someone to stop going to a certain church, or to stop reading certain books. This situation is analogous.

leadcounsel
August 18, 2009, 09:18 PM
Follow the order to the letter now.

Later, when it's over, work in the legal system to fight these laws that abuse gun owners. These laws include restraining orders, misdemeanor domestic violence, and divorce injunctions. These are DESIGNED by anti-gun groups as an end-run around our 2A rights and designed to strip mainly men of gun ownership, which strips families of abilities to defend themselves and lowers gun owership over generations.

Educate others. Vote. Rally.

kurtmax
August 18, 2009, 09:22 PM
This is legal in most states. Like an earlier poster said there should be a hearing very soon where you and your lawyer can oppose the firearms restrictions.

As for losing firearms in a divorce case... prenups people.. prenups. People getting married without prenups are crazy.

Or better yet, don't get married. At least in a legal sense.

ManBearPig
August 18, 2009, 09:26 PM
Everyone on here keeps saying "be prepared to give her half". Did you have a prenup? If not, then I guess they'd be right. I think it would be crazy to get married without one.

My home is paid off, I make a good income, and keep my bank account padded...I'd never ever ever marry without a prenup that says what I bring into the relationship is mine (meaning my house, my income, my bank account, my portfolio) and what she brings into the relationship is hers...with bank accounts and credit cards kept seperately. Stone cold solid; no way she's taking half as well as my house with that.

But anyway, I was just curious if you had gotten a prenup so as to keep her from taking half of your stuff...like the value of your firearms.

outdoors
August 18, 2009, 09:27 PM
your lucky u can give them to someone--where i live-the guns could be siezed and destroyed--i wish u the best of luck and hope that if u have any children-i pray you are more than a paycheck and week-end visitor to them.

As far as any constitution goes-forget it-this is family court-there is none


good luck

Deltaboy
August 18, 2009, 09:33 PM
Do what Tex said and get a good lawyer and settle up fast.

I'll be praying for you.

rondog
August 18, 2009, 09:37 PM
ManBearPig - you're my kinda guy! I wish I could be like you. You're single and happy, instead of married and miserable like me.

ManBearPig
August 18, 2009, 09:43 PM
Well I wouldn't mind settling down, but I won't do it without a prenup to assure if a divorced happened that I would be in the same boat I am now, which is fine. Most women hate prenups...but that's just the way it is. Like Diane Fienstien won't budge on the "assault weapon ban", I won't marry without a prenup. It's as simple as that.

Black Knight
August 18, 2009, 10:01 PM
As far as storing your guns go, do you have a friend who is a law enforcement officer? If so show him/her the order and let them store the guns for you. Imagine the Judge hearing that your guns are being stored responsibly by a Deputy Sheriff or Police Officer at your request in accordance to the order. As far as a lawyer goes get the best you can afford. As a former Private Investigator this is one time you need a cold blooded shark of a lawyer. One that is not afraid to go on the legal attack and make the other side prove you are a threat or make them sit down and shut up. If you can get a woman attorney that enjoys the shooting sports so much the better. In addition to the law a good portion of court room activity is perception. If you show up with a woman as your lawyer the Judge sees some one who is less likely to be a threat to women. Other than that do not lose your cool at any time outside your lawyer's office (lawyer client privalege), anywhere else and it could become a matter of public record.

One-Time
August 18, 2009, 10:08 PM
Talk about laws in need of reform, thats utter BS and its sad any american has his rights violated for an absurd thing like someone else being afraid!

markfh
August 18, 2009, 10:31 PM
I feel for ya brother. I am currently in posession of 12 firearms for a friend that is in almost the same circumstances you're in. His TRO has been lifted but his lawyer says to stay away from firearms until the divorce is final.

Bad thing for him is that his wife accused him of abusing her and it got out of hand. No he didn't hit her just yelled at her. He got arrested.

Good thing for him is that she's a gready bitch and realizes that if he has to go to court all expenses come out of her pocket too so now she's working to have the charges dropped.

Do what your lawyer says. The court is not your friend.

Burl
August 18, 2009, 10:56 PM
Black Knight, that is not a bad idea, my friend is a FDO (Flight Deck Officer) so the LEO holding my guns might be a nice added benefit.

Sweden
August 18, 2009, 11:01 PM
ManBearPig - I do hope you know prenups can and have been thrown out. Mine was a usless piece of paper once the judge excluded it. A prenup is never binding.

Burl
August 18, 2009, 11:15 PM
The total BS thing here is that there is no abuse or accusation of abuse of wife or children. I am a Hunter Safety Certified (even though I am too old for it to be required), and an Eagle Scout, have a 802 credit rating, no late payments on anything currently, a CHL holder in good standing, no history of drug, alchohol, or domestic violence arrests or issues and I still have my guns taken away. That is what pisses me off the most is that I am squeaky clean and the system still treats me like a criminal. The 2nd amendment means **** if a guy like me has my guns taken away just because it costs too much money and time to fight it. The American justice system sounds good until an upstanding citizen like me has to defend some frivolous charges. Disappointing to be a good guy and having to jump through the hoops I do and still have nothing. My wife and I were amicable until our split and then a bunch of BS accusations from her disarm me? Frustrated with our legal system. I am fighting with her about the dumbest things you can imagine, which is driven by her lawyer, and if you have never been through it you have no idea. Problem is I have no choice but to fight and piss away money or give up custody. Gun owners are frowned upon even by a conservative Texas court, unbelievable. Rant over.

Burl
August 18, 2009, 11:35 PM
OK, I just joined the TSRA for those interested.

smee781
August 18, 2009, 11:36 PM
"sell" them to a good friend for $100.00 and give her half that way they are gone and not an issue at the divorce.;)

federalfarmer
August 18, 2009, 11:36 PM
I went thrue this several years ago -- so I feel bad for this time in your life.

However do not blow this one! Follow the order BUT make sure in the final documents it clearly states that you CAN own,posess and use with the children firearms! It MUST be worded specifically and not just implied.

Please! for your sake later down the road.

Federal farmer

Burl
August 18, 2009, 11:44 PM
Great info and added to my notes!

Burl
August 19, 2009, 12:10 AM
federalfarmer, where r u from?

bondmid003
August 19, 2009, 02:50 AM
If you're father in law has threatened you in any way you can get a restraining order put on him and then he'd lose his guns...just a thought

Out of curiousity Sweden, why was your prenup thrown out

lanternlad1
August 19, 2009, 03:58 AM
Or better yet, don't get married. At least in a legal sense.

Doesn't stop a RO from ruining your life.

sohcgt2
August 19, 2009, 08:03 AM
This may be off topic a little since no guns were involved. My sister and ex-brother-in-law got divorced in Tx and he thought he was smarter than the judge. He also thought he had rights. He attempted to exercise the rights he thought he had (freedom of speach), he got mouthy with the judge, and my sister got 2 houses, 2 cars, and 2 kids. My ex-brother-in-law got to pay all the legal fees and was granted visitation only after completion of an anger management program. He never went to the anger management program and as a result did not see his kids untill they reached 18 yo.

Follow the state slogan and "DON'T MESS WITH TEXAS".

Old Fuff
August 19, 2009, 08:32 AM
Burl:

Google a bit...

There are advocacy organizations out there that are working to support and improve the rights of divorced fathers. As you have discovered, the legal system is often skewed in favor of women over men when it comes to domestic issues. This is largely because of many real cases of male abuse of women, and a not necessarily true belief that children, especially younger ones, should remain with their mother.

As a result, this is one of the few areas of jurisprudence where men are automatically presumed to be guilty until proven innocent.

It used to be that ex-husbands/fathers suffered in silence, but that’s no longer so. As you face this traumatic situation you can get moral support from others in the same boat who share they’re experiences – and solutions, counseling, critical information from professionals in the field and even legal assistance. Go look for it.

Mainsail
August 19, 2009, 09:21 AM
Boy, your story sounds a lot like mine. The now X-wife told her lawyer she was ‘uncomfortable’ with my firearms in the house, so she had the Sheriff’s department remove them. At the first hearing, after I’d moved out, the judge ordered they be returned to me because ‘uncomfortable’ wasn’t a valid reason to take my firearms. Her lawyer tried very hard to argue that I could become violent and wanted the judge to keep them, permanently. That didn’t fly though, and she (yes, a female judge) denied their petition. This is in the very liberal state of Washington too.

The deputy was impressed at how secure I kept them; locked in a hard case with two padlocks- and trigger locks on each. They also apologized for cutting both padlocks off the case. They took good care of them for the month or so that they had them too, no bangs or scratches or other signs that they messed with them.

The problem came later when I went to buy a new handgun. At that point, we still had mutual no-contact restraining orders. If you check YES to the restraining order question on the form, the gun shop cannot sell you the gun. If you turn the form over and read the explanation for that question, you will find that there has to be a finding by a judge of domestic violence or some wording to that effect. If anyone has the form handy, please let us know how that reads exactly. But anyway, if you read the explanation of the question, you can honestly answer NO and buy your firearm.

Dr_2_B
August 19, 2009, 10:43 AM
Burl, I don't have anything substantive to add. I just want to express my solidarity with you in this. You have been assaulted by the system and you've done nothing wrong (that I know of).

We say we live in a free country. This really is not true.

Phatty
August 19, 2009, 01:33 PM
Burl, you mentioned that your wife has a lawyer. Be prepared to get the rail-roading of a lifetime if you decide to proceed without a lawyer of your own.

travellingJeff
August 19, 2009, 02:34 PM
Burl, I don't know you, you don't know me.


But, please, trust me on this one thing.

Spend every penny you can afford, then a few dollars more, to get a good lawyer


You only get one "at-bat" in this game, and if you strike out, it's out for good.

Remember, the money that's spent paying for the attorney comes out of the "pot", so you'll have less to give her.




And remember, brother, the reason that divorce costs so much... it's worth it! :-)

Best of luck, I promise you doves will exist next year.

Mainsail
August 19, 2009, 09:44 PM
As to the money question, all you need is the retainer, the rest is payments and as mentioned are well worth it.

If she's fighting dirty, you will need to fight every bit (and more) as dirty, even if it goes against your nature.

Burl
August 19, 2009, 11:22 PM
Let's start by saying I am getting them gone, but are Daisy Red Rider or Benjamin pellet guns considered "firearms?"

Art Eatman
August 20, 2009, 07:22 AM
Enough wandering. :) More socializing than advising, and not much legal.

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