[lebowski]

I've been in the market for a gun safe, been researching for the last month or so and am nearing a decision. I have basically narrowed it down to the AMSEC BF or the Sturdy Safe, the latter I'm considering either with or without fire protection.


Unfortunately, the spot in my home where I'd like to place the safe is accessed through a narrow (27") doorway, so I'm somewhat limited in the safe size I can get through there. As a result, while I initially set out to purcahase a gun safe that offers fire protection, I'm starting to wonder if I would be better off getting a safe without fire protection, because the Sturdy Safe in that configuration offers more interior space.

I am NOT looking for an argument as to which of these two safe makes/models is "better" - there are a number of safe threads out there and I've used the search feature and read most of them. In reading such threads, I've noticed a number of comments along the lines of "yes such and such safe offers fire protection - but you won't want your guns after a fire anyway due to all of the moisture damage". Is this true? If so, why bother with a fire safe? Kind of makes me think it makes sense to get the non fire-lined safe and have the extra space.

FWIW, I plan to use this primarily for its intended purpose - that is, as a gun safe. I may have a few other items in there, but for the most part my important documents and such will be stored in a bank safe deposit box. I also live in a suburban environment, in a concrete block house (w/ some wood framing in the floors/crawl space and the attic), about a mile from a fire station, if that helps.

So what do you guys think, am I better off skipping the fire protection in favor of more space and just relying on my homeowners insurance in the event of a fire?

[CoRoMo]

To me, fire protection isn't as important as security.
I can always tap into my homeowner's insurance and NRA insurance to replace them after a fire, but I really just want to keep them out of the hands of the wrong people.
If they burn, okay.
If they get stolen by a burlar, or "borrowed without permission" by an unsupervised child, not at all okay.

[mgkdrgn]

I'm in line with CoRoMo. The safe I have -is- a fire safe ... but only because that is what the guy was selling (got it 2nd hand).

The other "issue" with a fire safe is that you can't bolt it to a wall, has to be bolted to the floor. That can limit where you can put it.

[skipsan]

I have the AmSec BF 30 (I think) and am very happy with it. That said, I'd have to agree that my primary concern is theft protection with the fire protection being secondary. HOWEVER, I believe that the fire protection insulation, whatever the material is, represents a large portion of the safe's weight--weight being a portion of the safe's anti-theft features. Seems to me that the AmSec weighed over 800 lbs empty. The fire protection has a secondary benefit, therefore, in making the safe heavier and bulkier and therefore harder to steal.

FWIW, these thngs we're calling "safes" are really Residential Security Containers as defined by Underwriters Laboratories. Real "safes" as defined by UL are a whole lot more money.

[lebowski]

Yes, I understand the whole RSC vs. safe definition. I looked at Graffunders and Browns - I'd love to get either, but given the value of my gun collection it's hard to justify the cost, plus I worry about the weight on my floors, plus I'd rather plow the cost savings into other security upgrades on my house.

As for the weight - it will be bolted to the floor regardless of how much it weighs. The Sturdy configured as I want is 800 lbs w/o fire protection or ~950-1000 w/ it, the AMSEC BF6030 is 976lbs.

[TheDriver]

Depending on where you live, you are possibly far more likely to undergo a fire than a burglary. Just something to think about. A security/safe expert laid this out on a great safe/firearm storage thread on Kim Du Toit's website a couple (?) years ago.

[Zundfolge]

To me, fire protection isn't as important as security.
I'm going to take the opposite stance.

A safe isn't going to protect your guns from theft by a determined thief (they'll just steal or destroy your expensive safe thus increasing your loss). A locked closet or simple gun cabinet is going to protect them just as well as a safe from a not-so-determined thief.


As far as I'm concerned a gun safe is good for keeping small hands from accessing your guns and maybe protecting them from fire. For everything else there's insurance (http://www.locktonrisk.com/nrains/armscareplus.htm).

[earlthegoat2]

The standard safe such as a Liberty will not stand up to a full scale fire even though they have it advertised to stand up to this and that (insert random heat and time) because I have seen safes taken out of burned buildings that are totally FUBAR. The safe companies will replace the safe sometimes under warranty but I think there is a provision about the items inside.

Go for security. The fire protection is just a sales pitch.

[lebowski]

A locked closet or simple gun cabinet is going to protect them just as well as a safe from a not-so-determined thief.



I thought about adding a solid core door with a deadbolt to the closet in my home office. Would keep kids and smash and grab criminals out ... but it can't provide as much burglary protection as a safe (or the RSCs we're discussing here).

I may add the door/lock to the closet anyway, just for additional locked up space. Would be a good place to put ammo and other bulky stuff that I don't want taking up all the room in my safe/RSC.

[winston smith]

More likely to have a fire. BUT...how much protection will a safe give your guns? They keep the interior at 350 degrees for 1-2 hours. How will your gun be if baked in an oven for 2 hours? The wood will be ruined at a minimum. If you can put it lower in the house, but not where water can submerge it, that reduces the chance of damage.

Remember, its all probibilities.

I thought puting a water tank on top of the safe- like a truck aux. tank with (steam)tubes from near the top interior of the tank to the safe's sides, would help to keep the temp. down.

How long does it take for a house fire to boil 70 gal.?

[Logos]

When's the last time your house burned down?

When's the last time your neighbor's house burned down?

When's the last time ANY house in your neighborhood burned down?

For me, the answer is never.

Now ask yourself how important fire protection in a gun safe is.

[lebowski]

When's the last time your house burned down?

When's the last time your neighbor's house burned down?

When's the last time ANY house in your neighborhood burned down?



I know - the answers are never, never, and never.

A lot of people tout this statistic that supposedly a fire is more likely than burglary - I wonder where that stat comes from and I highly suspect it's an internet myth. I can't remember a house in my neighborhood burning down. On the other hand, I can go on my local PD website and do "crime mapping" and a number of houses (even in the "nice areas" of town) are broken into every month. Granted, many of these break-ins are crimes of opportunity (homeowner left door unlocked, bike stolen out of open garage etc.) but many are not, and it does lead me to suspect that burglary is far more likely than fire. This is especially the case if you have high value items (such as guns) lying around. Fires are random, they don't target homes with gun or jewelry collections, burglars do.

[Logos]

Fires are random, they don't target homes with gun or jewelry collections, burglars do.

Exactly.

Which is why other levels of security can be incredibly important.....starting with looking and acting like someone with nothing much to steal......especially guns.

No NRA signs, no 2nd Amendment bumper stickers, no "Don't worry about the dog, beware the owner" signs with big gun muzzles on your door.

The word quickly gets around if a crew unloads a huge safe at your house.

That can't be good.

[Sheepdog1968]

To me, fire protection isn't as important as security.
I can always tap into my homeowner's insurance and NRA insurance to replace them after a fire, but I really just want to keep them out of the hands of the wrong people.
If they burn, okay.
If they get stolen by a burlar, or "borrowed without permission" by an unsupervised child, not at all okay.
+1

I have enough insure to cover fire damage. Mostly have a safe so others (family, friends, burglers) don't have unauthroized access and don't shoot themselves, others, of me.

[Z-Michigan]

Given that you're so close to the fire station, I think you're OK without fire protection, as long as nothing in your collection is irreplaceable.

A safe isn't going to protect your guns from theft by a determined thief (they'll just steal or destroy your expensive safe thus increasing your loss). A locked closet or simple gun cabinet is going to protect them just as well as a safe from a not-so-determined thief.

The "Safes" he is looking at are well above the common chain-store RSCs. I completely disagree that a locked closet or cheap metal cabinet is comparable. I have a Sturdy and wanted to drill my own mounting holes to bolt it down - destroyed two quality TiN bits in the process, despite using cutting fluid and taking breaks to let the bit cool down. An amateur won't be getting in. If a true professional has targeted you and brings appropriate tools, you're out of luck even with a TL-15.

I have a Sturdy Safe and am very happy with it. Of course the Amsec should also be a top quality safe/RSC as well.

[lebowski]

Exactly.

Which is why other levels of security can be incredibly important.....starting with looking and acting like someone with nothing much to steal......especially guns.

No NRA signs, no 2nd Amendment bumper stickers, no "Don't worry about the dog, beware the owner" signs with big gun muzzles on your door.

The word quickly gets around if a crew unloads a huge safe at your house.

That can't be good.
I don't do any of that stuff to blatantly advertise I am a gun owner, but still, you never know word can get around.

I agree unloading a safe at my house in draws attention, but it's something I'll only have to do once and I'll be as discreet as possible. Beats the alternative of not having the guns locked up, IMO.

[lebowski]

Given that you're so close to the fire station, I think you're OK without fire protection, as long as nothing in your collection is irreplaceable.



The "Safes" he is looking at are well above the common chain-store RSCs. I completely disagree that a locked closet or cheap metal cabinet is comparable. I have a Sturdy and wanted to drill my own mounting holes to bolt it down - destroyed two quality TiN bits in the process, despite using cutting fluid and taking breaks to let the bit cool down. An amateur won't be getting in. If a true professional has targeted you and brings appropriate tools, you're out of luck even with a TL-15.

I have a Sturdy Safe and am very happy with it. Of course the Amsec should also be a top quality safe/RSC as well.


I agree with you. I briefly considered the locked closet idea, but gave up on it pretty quickly as it would be totally unrealistic to fortify that closet so that it's anything close to the AMSEC or the Sturdy.

Good to hear you had a hard time drilling through it. I really wish there was some site that actually tested these things, breaking into them and reporting how difficult it is.

[BMF500]

When's the last time your house burned down?

When's the last time your neighbor's house burned down?

When's the last time ANY house in your neighborhood burned down?

For me, the answer is never.

Now ask yourself how important fire protection in a gun safe is.
Now ask yourself, "If my house does burn down, do I want to be able to salvage what was in the safe or collect the insurance check?"

[a1abdj]

There are a few aspects that tend to get glossed over a bit with the AMSECs when being compared with other safes. These aspects should be considered, as they are not the same between the AMSECs and most of their competition.

First, the AMSEC is using a fill material between two steel walls for insulation. This fill material is not similar to the gypsum board that most other manufacturers use, and is not similar to the fiberglass or other odd insulation that a few other manufacturers use. The material is engineered to be used in safes as a fire insulation, and is used in smaller versions of the BF series which do carry a UL fire rating. If fire protection is important to you, the AMSEC and Graffunders are going to be best options. There is no UL rated fire safe on the market using gypsum board or fiberglass insulation as their primary insulator.

Second, this fill material goes beyond offering fire protection. This fill material also adds burglary resistance to the safe by making the walls of the safe stiff. The weakest part of most safes are its walls, and the biggest weakness of most gun safe walls are the fact that they will flex. None of the other insulations that other manufacturers use would be useful in the event of a brute force burglary.

[twofifty]

Lebowski, you could hire a carpenter or mason to widen the 27" door opening, then get a wider safe in there.

This would also be a good time to strengthen the door frame, & install a solid core door with heavy hinges & lock. This will add another layer to defeat the thieves.

[lebowski]

Lebowski, you could hire a carpenter or mason to widen the 27" door opening, then get a wider safe in there.

This would also be a good time to strengthen the door frame, & install a solid core door with heavy hinges & lock. This will add another layer to defeat the thieves.
Thanks for the suggestion ... due to the layout of the house, it's probably not an option. But I will think about upgrading the door and lock to the office at some point.

[Flyboy73]

Unfortunately, the spot in my home where I'd like to place the safe is accessed through a narrow (27") doorway, so I'm somewhat limited in the safe size I can get through there.

Get a Zanotti Safe. They ship them in pieces and you assemble them in the spot you want the safe.

I had a problem with a big safe not being able to make a 90 degree turn in my basement. You can get up to a 52 gun safe. They are not cheap and there is a 3 months wait, since they build them for each order. They are rated 20 min for 1200 deg.

http://www.zanottiarmor.com/

Brion

[suemarkp]

Instead of thinking of the closet as the "safe", think of it as the fire protection. Solid core door perhaps with high temp weather stripping, two layers of sheet rock on the inside, and perhaps some fire resistant insulation in the stud cavity.

Build it like a 1 Hr fire wall between adjoining condos. Also think about above and below as fire walls.

But if the fire is bad enough, the closet will burn down and the safe will be cooked, fire resistant or not. If you have a fire and the fire department puts it out, what is all the water going to do to the safe?

[leadcounsel]

When's the last time your house burned down?

When's the last time your neighbor's house burned down?

When's the last time ANY house in your neighborhood burned down?

For me, the answer is never.

Now ask yourself how important fire protection in a gun safe is.

Sorry, flawed logic.

You could also ask how many times you were in a serious car accident or saw one? Why wear a seatbelt?

How many times have you been threatened with deadly force? Why take precautions like carrying a gun?

How many times have you gotten bitten by ticks? Why wear long socks and use spray?

And on and on and on...

Safes are generally once-in-a-lifetime purchases for most people, and they are a PITA to ship, move, etc. You really want to do it as few times as necessary. Averaged out over 30 years, the cost difference between fire resistance and non is less than a nickel a day.

You can keep more than firearms in there - jewelry, documents, photos, etc.
And considering that you keep irreplacable and replacable valuables in your safe, why not add fire resistance?

[hpluseleven]

I've been lurking on this site for a while, just registered so I can post.

I have had a house fire. Fortunately I didn't have any family heirloom type guns at that time (my grandfather has since passed away and I have a few of his guns) and that has played into my attitude on this as well:

The safe aspect - the idea is to make things hard enough for the burglar that they pass your safe over. Given enough time and motivation they'll get into any safe. Along those lines - some fire protection is better than none.

I strongly suspect that had my guns been in the safe I have now (Liberty) when my house burned, I could have pulled them out and gone shooting the next day. As it was, they weren't damaged beyong repair (stored in a closet on the other side of the house from the christmas tree that burned - yes, it really happens) I was fortunate that the house didn't burn to the ground. Just like there are burglars with varying levels of time and motivation, there are fires with varying levels of time and heat.

Now that I have some guns that hold some family value, I'd rather they be in a safe so there's a much better chance that the guns can at least be repaired after a fire vs tossing out some charred remains.

Bottom line - I don't want my buddies getting into my guns when we're having a BBQ and getting drunk and I don't want them to burn when my drunk buddies knock over the smoker and light the house on fire. (ok, that's a contrived scenario, but you get the point) There's value to both the limiting access and fire protection aspects of having a safe.

PS: My house that burned was less a mile from the fire station as well.

FWIW, now that I have it, I store my passport/birth certificate/etc/etc/etc in my safe. Sure, there are fires that can burn hot enough and long enough to defeat the safe, but the safe isn't supposed to be perfect, just better than nothing.

[scythefwd]

When's the last time your house burned down?

When's the last time your neighbor's house burned down?

When's the last time ANY house in your neighborhood burned down?

For me, the answer is never.

Now ask yourself how important fire protection in a gun safe is.

Now that you ask... about 5 years ago it burnt to the ground. Second fire in 20 years in that house. It burnt down after I left "home". Had a house "fire" a couple of years ago due to lightning strike killing a transformer on one of my phones, which heated up and was starting to smoke (imagine if I hadn't been home and anal retentive about locating the smell of ozone, the smell of fried electronics). I got to that one before any real damage could start. So that would be 3 fires, all could have take the house down in less than 25 years.
I have seen lightning strike my house from the inside (saw a huge flash right at ceiling level while I was in the house) during a lightning storm.

I guess fire is a worry to me :)

Leadcousel,
About the burglery, had that one happen once.
About the ticks issue brought up later... more times than I can count.
The serious car wreck... have lost 4 relatives to car wrecks, see flipped cars a couple times a year, see cars totaled almost everyday going to work (had two totaled myself... one was dodging debris and failing.. the other I was Tboned). Aunt was hit by a semi that didn't touch the brakes while in a traffic jam.
Threatened with deadly force... do the threats to my father about driveby's count since I was living in the house? We had some real pieces of work "visit" us when he crossed the union lines. Bought more than one windshield and every car had new tires by the end.

Heck folks, yall just made me realize something... I should never leave my house again the way my life is working out :) Nah... gotta pay for diapers somehow :))

[Dragracer_Art]

There is no such thing as a fireproof safe.

I had a customer give me about 10 guns that were in his very expensive "Fireproof" safe when his home burned to the ground. I'm pretty sure he said it was a Liberty safe.

I was able to salvage only the receiver of a 10/22 and that's it. Every gun was a scorched, burnt pile of melted junk or charred wood. The 870, the Charles Daly shotgun, the Browning .308 levergun, etc... they were all BARELY recognizable as firearms. Anything made of steel was a rusty and seized mess due to the huge amount of water and wet ash that was leftover when the fire was out.

I cut the rest of them up and scrapped them.

The only thing a safe will do is keep out crooks.

[ElToro]

my next door neighbors garage caught fire 2 weeks after i moved in. a safe in teh garage wold have been

im out of room in the current "RSC" (i like that term !) but for my next safe, my wife has signed off on one of those safes that lays down and has cushions on it and looks like afurniture. i will put it in the front room by the door and it will fit right in. the safe door opens like a coffin. i think i can get many long guns in there.

mostly concerned about my 15 month getting into unaithorized areas. residential theft less so. my neighborhood is very safe and quiet and wife stays home during the day with the kid, but were not here 24/7.

[divemedic]

As a firefighter:

The overwhelming majority of house fires do not "burn your house down" but instead just burn portions of it. A fire safe helps protect what is inside from the fire for a period of time. Just like there are no "bullet proof" vests or "water proof" watches in our litigious society, there are no "fire proof" safes. That is where the ratings come from.

This isn't a choice between fire and thief protection, this is a choice of whether or not you want fire protection. I make my living from the disasters that others go through, and my advice to you is take the fire protection.

When you install the guts, just be sure that the guns are not right on the floor of the safe. 6 inches or so, and they should stay dry from any firefighting water that will pool on the floor.

[lebowski]

There are a few aspects that tend to get glossed over a bit with the AMSECs when being compared with other safes. These aspects should be considered, as they are not the same between the AMSECs and most of their competition.

First, the AMSEC is using a fill material between two steel walls for insulation. This fill material is not similar to the gypsum board that most other manufacturers use, and is not similar to the fiberglass or other odd insulation that a few other manufacturers use. The material is engineered to be used in safes as a fire insulation, and is used in smaller versions of the BF series which do carry a UL fire rating. If fire protection is important to you, the AMSEC and Graffunders are going to be best options. There is no UL rated fire safe on the market using gypsum board or fiberglass insulation as their primary insulator.

Second, this fill material goes beyond offering fire protection. This fill material also adds burglary resistance to the safe by making the walls of the safe stiff. The weakest part of most safes are its walls, and the biggest weakness of most gun safe walls are the fact that they will flex. None of the other insulations that other manufacturers use would be useful in the event of a brute force burglary.
Thanks Frank, helpful as always.

I do realize the drylight in the AMSEC adds a rigid backing to the steel. For this thread, I'm really just focused on the protection from an actual fire.

It was actually some of your quotes that got me wondering about the usefulness, from another thread you commented:



Secondly, don't count on your gun safe to protect its contents from a fire, regardless of what type of fire barrier it uses.





I'm the first person to admit that gun safes won't protect their contents in a fire




Here's the problem with gun safes being fireproof. The best insulations on fireproof safes are moisture bearing. The moisture in these insulations will cause above average humidity issues within the safe. In order to protect the guns, you have to use insulations that do not contain as much moisture. As such, it reduces the ability to protect against fire.




Of course, most gun safes get steam inside of them in a fire, and it's not coming from the insulation. It's coming from the water being sprayed on the fire. The fire has to get pretty close to the safe before the seals swell, and the steam and other chemicals typically enter the safe before that happens.





Some history and opinion:

Gun safes originally had no fireproofing. They were simply steel boxes with gun racks on the inside.

At some point, manufacturers realized that although the male wanted the safe, a purchase of that size had to be approved by a female. In order to make the sale of the safe more appealing to the female, the figured they had to convince her it was useful for her as well.

Voila! Your multipurpose residential vault was born. Look at your catalogs, and pay close attention to the photos of what is being stored in the safes. A few guns...and a lot of wedding albums, silverware, and women's jewelry.



For a gun safe, it's [fire proofing] a waste of money, unless you're buying a high end unit. The Graffunders are built quite a bit nicer than your average gun safe, but they also have a price tag that goes along with that quality.

I've always said that gun safes are for guns. Anything else you're looking to protect needs to go into something specifically designed for that task.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=284466&highlight=sturdy+safe


Sorry for the long list of quotes, but there was a lot there. Those last two quotes from you really get to the gist of my question - it sounds like fireproofing was added as a gimmick to convince wives to approve of the safe/RSC purchase. In my case, there's no wife to approve the purchase, and it'll mostly be just guns in the safe (maybe a few other items like my passport and a watch or two, but high importance or irreplaceable documents will be at the bank safe deposit box). Your quotes make me think, the fireproofing seems to be a low concern for a gun safe if the moisture will ruin the guns anyway.

[a1abdj]

Sorry for the long list of quotes, but there was a lot there. Those last two quotes from you really get to the gist of my question - it sounds like fireproofing was added as a gimmick to convince wives to approve of the safe/RSC purchase. In my case, there's no wife to approve the purchase, and it'll mostly be just guns in the safe (maybe a few other items like my passport and a watch or two, but high importance or irreplaceable documents will be at the bank safe deposit box). Your quotes make me think, the fireproofing seems to be a low concern for a gun safe if the moisture will ruin the guns anyway.

It's not a problem at all. Most of those quotes are speaking in general terms. Keep in mind that the vast majority of gun safes on the market are using gypsum board for insulation. These quotes are mostly geared towards them.

When it comes to fire rated safes, you'll encounter four classifications of insulation:

The first is the gypsum/ceramic/pixie dust crowd. This is mostly limited to gun safe manufacturers, and although it will provide some protection, is going to be pretty limited when exposed to a real fire. There is a reason that you will never see these materials used on safes (not gun safes) that carry real fire ratings.

The second is a moisture bearing/encapsulating fill. This is mostly used on lower end fire safes. This is the least expensive material that you will find in safes that do carry an actual fire rating. Most of the safes you will find at your big box stores use this type of material. Sentry, Brinks, Fire Fyter, etc.. I don't know of any gun safe manufacturers that have ever used this type of insulation for obvious reasons. Most of the manufactures that do build smaller safes using this method do specifically mention not storing guns within the safe in their owners manuals.

The third is a low moisture bearing (dry) fill material. This type of insulation is used in some of the higher end fire rated safes, as well as the AMSEC and Graffunder gun safes. These safes are not nearly as bad when it comes to moisture, yet the material is proven. I do not know why AMSEC did not submit their gun safe line to UL for testing, but they did submit the smaller version, which did pass.

The fourth is a burglary resistant, high PSI fill which is engineered for burglary protection, but also happens to insulate from fire. These materials are usually only found in higher end burglary rated safes similar to those you would find in a jewelry store. You can find gun safes using this construction method, but they are not very common. AMSEC builds one, and I build one under a private label. We are the only two that I'm aware of.

All in all, most gun safes use gypsum board for insulation. As a whole, these safes tend to perform poorly, especially in severe fires. From that standpoint it doesn't matter if you're looking at a Browning, Champion, Liberty, etc. They should all perform very similar under similar circumstances.

[lebowski]

Get a Zanotti Safe. They ship them in pieces and you assemble them in the spot you want the safe.

I had a problem with a big safe not being able to make a 90 degree turn in my basement. You can get up to a 52 gun safe. They are not cheap and there is a 3 months wait, since they build them for each order. They are rated 20 min for 1200 deg.

http://www.zanottiarmor.com/

Brion
Thanks ... I considered a Zanotti, only problem is 11 gauge steel on the sides, I'm looking for something a bit thicker.

[MAKster]

In a situation where the fire protection is actually needed it most likely won't protect your guns. The protection in most gun safes is just drywall. The heat of the fire releases moisture in the drywall and reduces the temperature inside of the safe. Your guns will get a nice steam bath. If you house is severely damaged it might not be safe to enter for a day or two. There you will have to wait for a locksmith to come and drill open your safe. By then your guns will likely be a pile of rust.

[lebowski]

Thanks for all the help, guys. I ended up ordering the Sturdy in 32x24x72 without the fire protection.

The BF is a great offering for the price, I think the two of these stand out as by far the best options for their price range (both about $2000-$2500 shipped to FL). Between the two, it just came down to a matter of packaging - the Sturdy is available in a 72" model that will fit through my door, while the largest BF I can fit is the 6030. Add in the absence of fire protection, and the interior space difference becomes quite large.

I will double check the limits on my homeowners insurance policy since I'm going w/o the fire protection.

Thanks for everyone's input and helpful suggestions.

[kevtop]

You don't necessarily need a fire resistent gun safe, just document your guns serial number, make and model, and get an additional rider on your insurance policy; its not that expensive. If however, you want to store money in it, buy a small sentry fire proof safe and put it in the gun safe. Both sturdy and Amsec are quality safes. However, the Amsec body is only 11 gauge while the sturdy is 7 or 8. Good Luck!

[22-rimfire]

Fire resistant safes are over rated in terms of protection. But at least they give some protection for a short period of time.

Many have their gun safes in the basement. What happens in a fire? The burning house falls down into the basement and the hot buring materials surround the safe. The fire proofing does not last long. Also, often the fire is put out but things are still "hot", and if your safe is buried in debris, more than likely your guns will be destroyed.

If you safe is stored upstairs, in a big fire, it falls through the floor to the ground level.

They work well with little fires.

The fire ratings vary and I don't believe there is an official standard for rating the fire proofing.

So, it is really just your decision if you want to deal with the extra weight.

If you have your safe in the basement, you can create your own fire proofing enviroment by building a strong closet (strong enough to support the weigh of debris falling from above) around your safe with steel door and multiple layers of sheet rock. In the basement, weight is not an issue.

There is no good answer. Fires happen and they happen very very quickly. Don't expect to be able to make multiple runs into your house to retrieve important or valuable belongings in a fire. Figure on one trip max. Sometimes you are barely able to get yourself out and your family in one piece in whatever clothing they have on at that moment in time. If you're in the shower, bath robe will likely be your clothing that you are in standing watching your house burn down. Probably the only clothing that you own at that point unless you have some in a vehicle that is not burnt up. I hate house fires and they depress me immensely.

Added: You know a fire" bob" would be much more practical than the usual SHTF scenario as it is more likely to happen.

[2nd 41]

My safe is not fire lined. Does not bother me.