[ny32182]

So far my pistol loading career has consisted of about 250 9mm loads. (That is 250 individual cartridges, not 250 unique component combinations. ;))

When I was first setting up my dies, I set the belling die up per the instructions, and set the seater to give a slight crimp. However, I started looking at the case mouths of the "belled" cartridges vs those straight out of the sizer; didn't really see a difference visually. I tried loading a couple without the "bell", it worked the same as with the "bell". So I basically said "screw it, I've never belled a rifle case in my life... I don't see the point of the bell here". I've loaded my last 200 rounds with no belling die anywhere on the press... They all chamber and fire just fine. So what is the point? It seems to be lost on me.


Second question: I think I might be sizing my brass just a little more than I have to: I've got the ram touching the sizing die for sure, and then I can see a "ridge" at the bottom of the bullet on a loaded cartridge where the brass has expanded over the base of the seated bullet. On factory ammo, I don't see much of this on plinking ammo, but definitely do see it on factory Gold Dot loads... so does this represent a potential problem one way or the other? Once again, all of my loads have functioned just fine to date. I am still gradually bringing the charge up some on each new batch. My most recent batch was run at an IDPA match and I still think the pressure is a little low based on the recoil and primer mark.

[lykoris]

hmmm yeah, but you always chamfer and deburr a rifle case to assist the seating of the bullet.

as you don't do this with a straight walled pistol case you need bell it very slightly (for me it's anywhere between 8-20thousandths of an inch) to assist the seating of the bullet.

crimp is just to remove the bell/flare, it's not really a crimp per say.

I think it is extremely abnormal you can fit a .355 bullet on a case that has just been through the resizing die :confused:

in any case, I suggest you pull one of these bullets and when you do you will see striations which negatively effect accuracy.

what kills me on a progressive is as cases grow smaller you need to increase the belling

[ny32182]

The jacket on the bullets I'm using rolls in slightly right at the base... nothing even close to the taper present on a boat tail rifle bullet, but evidently it is enough to let me get a bullet in the case. I can see how a problem could exist if the bullet base was cut off and a very sharp/perfect right angle, but I can hardly imagine that is ever going to be?

[lykoris]

and to answer your 2nd question

best answer is to follow the instructions that came with your die, steel dies they run it up until it just touches the ram, carbide they back it off 1/8th-1/4 of a turn, on redding dies its carbide tungsten so the sizing die can touch the ram.

as long as it isn't causing undue stress on the press, when you lower the handle to the full travel it should be just snug/touching - assuming instructions state it can touch the shell holder.

I think you're talking about the bottleneck outline of your loaded cartridge. That's perfectly normal.

[lykoris]

I have difficulty putting it into words - forgive me.

when there is little to no bell on the case mouth what happens is you get slight shavings off the side of the bullet as it is seated.

it's tricky - too much belling and you work the brass case mouth for no reason getting less firings per case, too little and you shave the bullet and accuracy goes out the window.

The jacket on the bullets I'm using rolls in slightly right at the base

I'm not sure what you mean by that. In any event rcmodel, the resident expert will give you a 2nd opinion (and a more accurate account of what is wrong/why the need to bell the case).

[ny32182]

Thanks... I have not seen any shavings so far, but will look closer.

[lykoris]

I think I know what you mean vis-à-vis the bullet base, what brand is the bullet? What is the diameter of a resized case and the bullet when you check with your calipers ?

in any event, even if I had a bullet with a slightly tapered base I would still bell the case as otherwise it will be straight and sharp...which will shave the side of the bullet as it is seated deeper into the case.

I think I would pull 5 of the cartridges and inspect the bullet for damage, if there is none then all is well with your set-up and you can get away with no belling.(would be the 1st I have heard of it although I've only been reloading for 1 year.)

I only reload for 9/45/357 but as I said, I have never been able to seat a bullet after a case has been through the resizing die regardless of the base of the bullet as you appear to be able to do with your set-up.

[The Bushmaster]

You need to put a slight bell on handgun cases. Just enough to allow the bullet to just start to enter the case. This is particularly important with lead bullets. With jacketed bullets it just makes sure you don't damage the base of the bullet or crush the case. Damage to the nose of the bullet has shown little or no loss in accuracy, but damage to the base of the bullet has shown much deteriation of accuracy. And you DO need to chamfer and debur handgun cases.

Rifle cases...No I don't or have found little need to bell the cases as most of my bullets are boat tailed and the flat base bullets I do use seen to have a very slight bevel at the base anyway.

Revolver cases will need to be crimped. Pistol cases only need to insure the bell has been removed. And yes it does seem that when seating pistol bullets the bell self removes...

[lykoris]

And you DO need to chamfer and debur handgun cases.

I don't believe it is a necessity to chamfer and debur handgun cases.

In the same way I don't think you need to trim pistol brass. Revolver for a nice roll crimp perhaps.

[lykoris]

or maybe you shoot competition Bushmaster and trim, chamfer and deburr all your handgun brass ?

[Sam1911]

You probably want to leave your resizing die alone. In an autopistol cartridge (9mm, .45ACP, .40 S&W, etc.) the bullet is held in place by the friction of the bullet being an "interference fit" between the inner walls of the case mouth and the exterior of the bullet. In other words, the bullet exterior is at least as large as the interior of the resized case...maybe a few thou. bigger. When you press the bullet home it should ever so slightly size the case mouth back up. On a lot of cartridges, especially those loaded with cast lead unjacketed bullets which run larger than jacketed slugs, you can look at the exterior of the case and see how far down into the case the base of the bullet has been seated. There will be a visible line around the case at the base of the bullet where the outside diameter changes. Your resizing die squeezed the whole case down to a smaller diameter, and then the bullet you forced into it stretched it back out. This is, I think, what you've noticed on the Gold Dots.

(On revolver cartridges, especially firing heavy loads, a heavy roll crimp is preferred to really grip the bullet. Those loads are often hot enough, and the bullets heavy enough, that firing one round will yank the other cartridges back off their bullets by a bit. The OAL of the other rounds grows and the noses of the bullets may start to project from the front of the cylinder locking up the gun. The roll crimp gives extra grip so that doesn't happen.)

Most bullets have some small bit of radius to the bottom edge. Like you said, not as much as a boat-tail rifle bullet, but a bit. In jacketed bullets it is usually simply a product of how the inner lead core is pressed into the jacket cup. In cast lead bullets, it is cast that way intentionally and usually denoted as "bevel-base" or some such wording.

This rounding or beveling is often enough chamfer to seat a bullet in an un-belled case, if you're careful to get the bullet seated straight before it enters the seating die. The belling step makes that a little easier. You don't want to bell the case any more than you have to to get the bullets started without fuss. Any more than that is working the brass unneccessarily. If you aren't cutting any metal off your bullets when you seat them (and with jacketed slugs I really doubt you are), then you're a-o.k.

The standard "taper crimp" that's applied by carefully setting the seating die, or with a separate crimp die, closes the mouth belling and can provide just a hair more bite, if you want to turn it in another fraction of a turn, though the case tension will still be doing most of the work.

To check your case tension, measure the COAL of a few rounds, load them into a magazine first and then top off with a bunch more. Fire those top rounds and then top off that magazine again. Do that a few times, then remove the handfull of test rounds from the magazine. Now they should have ridden through 20-30 recoil cycles. Measure them all again. If your tension is appropriate for the bullet diameter, they won't have changed length. If you find that they're measuring shorter or longer than they were when you measured them the first time, stop. There are things you can do to increase that tension (undersized sizing die, mostly) which will prevent dangerous bullet setback.

Now, regarding your loads and IDPA, going by "feel" and primer marks is pretty useless. Ask around and run some of your loads over a chronograph. If you aren't making 125,000 power floor, then you need to work up your load a bit. If you're making adequate velocity for your bullet, then the load is fine. Without the chrono, there's no way to know.

Good Luck!

-Sam

[Sam1911]

And you DO need to chamfer and debur handgun cases.


Yeah, I'll call baloney on that one, too. :neener:

If you want to spend your time doing it, it probably doesn't hurt anything, but it is of extremely limited value.

maybe you shoot competition Bushmaster and trim, chamfer and deburr all your handgun brass
That would have to be a pretty special kind of pistol competition to require such case prep care. Perhaps a bullseye shooter at the top levels of competition might claim to be able to notice a difference. But I've never heard of one making that claim, so I'm just speculating. If you're shooting USPSA, IDPA, Steel Challenge, Bianchi Cup, NRA Action Pistol, SASS, or anything else where time is factored into your score as well as accuracy, spend your case trimming and chamfering time practicing! :)

-Sam

[dwave]

Very important step for me when loading lead. I shave the bullet if I don't put enough of a bell on the case. Another possibly would be that you could crush or fold the neck of the case.

[dwave]

I'll also throw in with the "I don't chamfer my pistol brass." I do however debur the brass as I don't want to get a brass sliver in my finger.

[Doug b]

ny32182 I've experienced this no expansion needed also, with thin brass.

[Sam1911]

Agreed, this is a bigger deal for soft and oversized lead bullets than for jacketed slugs.

I also forgot to point out, if you're loading on a single-stage or turret press, you may have better luck getting away without belling the case mouths beacuse you can more easily keep the bullet held "just so" until it enters the seating die. On a progressive press, though, there's so much movement and jostling and other things you should be paying attention to, that giving the cases enough bell so that the bullets will behave themselves on the way to the seating die just makes things a whole lot easier.

-Sam

[243winxb]

I've got the ram touching the sizing die for sure What make/type die set?I can see a "ridge" at the bottom of the bullet on a loaded cartridge Normal on some, don't hurt a thing. If you use the expander, it might not show as much. RCBS dies bell and expand at the same time. I measure the bell a minimum of .005" larger than the case body. The belling/expander is a must do for lead bullets and most everone bells for jacketed. Your the first not to, that i heard of. :confused: And you DO need to chamfer and debur handgun cases. Yes you do need to. Chamfer and Debur after trimming. IF cases ever get longer than maximum lenght.;)

[Sam1911]

Yes you do need to. Chamfer and Debur after trimming. IF cases ever get longer than maximum lenght.

"IF"

Now that's funny, right there! ;)

-S

[243winxb]

That why i said IF in caps lol "maybe" works well also The Quote was about "Handguns" I never have trimmed a 45acp, but alway trim revolvers.

[Historian]

I've seen that "ridge" on some of my .40 S&Ws. I've gone ahead and shot them without ill effect. Never had a FTE or a misfire in three thousand rounds.

Historian

[ny32182]

The bullets are Precision Delta 115gr jacketed RN... they look *very* similar to those found in factory WWB to me. In fact I am loading them to the same OAL since I know that works well in my guns. A "beveled" or "radiused" bottom edge of the jacket... yes, that is a better description than "tapered". "Taper" is not really accurate. It is just a slightly rounded bottom edge. Enough so that it will usually sit in the case mouth prior to seating. They are advertized as .355".. i have not measured them, nor the inside diameter of a sized case.

The dies are Hornady "custom grade new dimension" set, with a "titanium nitride" sizing die for lube-free sizing. The seater also has a floating stem coming out the bottom that centers the bullet in the case prior to seating at the top of the stroke. I don't know if this is common, or unique to this die set.

My press is a Redding Turret.

I have yet to trim/chamfer/debur, or even measure a pistol case for length... popular opinion when I was getting started seemed to be that this was not neccessary in the pistol world. If I found a case with a rough mouth, I would do it to that one.

I guess I've just got enough radius on the bullet I'm using to not have to bell. Plus the jacket is harder than the brass, right? I can see how it might be a problem with a soft lead bullet.

[ny32182]

Also I've been meaning to get a chrono but don't currently have access to one. Most of my ammo will end up getting shot in IDPA matches, so eventually I would like to know the velocity.

[The Bushmaster]

Reloaders tend to reload in their own fashon. Some trim and some don't. I trim revolver cases to attain the consistent crimp needed to produce the most consistent cartridge. I trim .45 ACP cases to .890 +/- .002 to satisfy the Wilson barrel in my Colt which seems to function best (accuracy) with cases at that (.890) measurment. Don't know...Maybe just me.

But...I do tend to be anal about trying to produce the finest ammunition that I can with the [limited] equipment in my reloading/gun room (Man Cave)...

To critisize my procedures that have produced ammunition that has not failed for 24 years is wasting yours, and my time and not helping the OP. Can you say that? If you can...Great...But don't critisize those that do it differently unless it is an unsafe method...

[Deavis]

However, I started looking at the case mouths of the "belled" cartridges vs those straight out of the sizer; didn't really see a difference visually. I tried loading a couple without the "bell", it worked the same as with the "bell".

Get your calipers on there, your eyes are very exacting good measurement device. You can typically see the difference if you know what you are looking and have belled enough for easy loading on a progressive but calipers are the right tool.

On 9mm after seating you may see that the case mouth diameter will run anywhere from 0.380 to 0.384 depending on the belling, bullet diameter, case neck thickness, and seating die tolerance. After crimping it to at LEAST the SAAMI maximum, you'll have a round that should chamber. If the mouth diameter is larger than the maximum, you'll find that it binds about 3/4 of the way down a case gage or your chamber. As you crimp it, it will go farther until you hear the much enjoyed "clunk" of a properly sized round.

If you were to measure factory rounds, you'll find that the crimp creates a case mouth diameter below the max spec, typically 0.002-0.005", which is to permit them to function across a wide variety of chambers but not so much as to allow the case to headspace improperly. Targeting 0.003 will allow it to chamber in tight chambers that amay be slightly smalller than the nominal case mouth spec. Use your calipers to setup your dies and you won't go wrong.

[ranger335v]

" I can see how a problem could exist if the bullet base was cut off and a very sharp/perfect right angle, but I can hardly imagine that is ever going to be? "

Can you imagine a cast bullet? (Very square, and soft base.) Belling is truly important if you are loading unjacketed bullets.

Trimming handgun cases to a consistant length is only improtant if you want consistant crimps.

Champhering/deburring is only important if you want bullets to enter smoothly and for the ammo to chamber smoothly, every time.

A figure "8" cartridge case shape is the result of overly resized cases, nothing more. It's generally harmless, all it does is lead to premature body splits.

[ny32182]

Thanks Deavis... I was thinking that might be an advantage to not belling: If the case mouth is at "straight out of the sizer" (small) dimensions when a bullet is seated, the mouth should expand only to the smallest size possible with that bullet, correct? Therefore if the bullet is the correct diameter, you should automatically end up with a case mouth that is the correct diameter, regardess of how your crimp is set up. I did set my crimp ring to touch the case mouth... just in case.

I've never measured it, but now I will just to see what the result is. All of them have chambered so far.

[243winxb]

the mouth should expand only to the smallest size possible with that bullet, correct? Brass wall thickness from brand to brand is not all the same. When you get brass with thick walls, the bullet becomes the expander. Its possible for the seating stem to deform the bullet nose.This is way we use an expander and bell. Plus the brass case is 70 % copper, 30% zinc. Bullet jackets are 90% copper 10% zinc. This make the brass case harder than the bullet jacket. If you want to take a chance on scratching your bullet, fine. Us old bullseye shooters expect each bullet to go into the X.

[Sam1911]

Can you imagine a cast bullet? (Very square, and soft base.) Belling is truly important if you are loading unjacketed bullets.
Better throw a "some" in there a couple of places. I load around 10,000 cast bullets a year. All of them are beveled on the bottom and I'd wager they're even a little more so than most jacketed bullets. I still bell my cases, but I've played around with minimal belling and it works fine. It just requires more care to keep the bullet in the right position entering the seating die. Like I said, with the progressive press it makes things run a lot smoother to have a tad more bell.

Trimming handgun cases to a consistant length is only improtant if you want consistant crimps.
Trimming handgun cases to a consistant length is only important if you see some measurable difference in performance if you do so. Most handgun shooters will be happy enough with 3" groups at 25 yds or so, and the most perfect crimp possible is not going to make any difference at all at that level of precision. If you're trying to prove that your Wilson can meet the 1.5" at 50 yds challenge, you should make the most perfect ammo you can. If you're shooting for some reason other than simple small-group paper punching, the large amounts of time spent to do that do not justify themselves.

Champhering/deburring is only important if you want bullets to enter smoothly and for the ammo to chamber smoothly, every time.Odd. I've never chamfered or deburred a pistol case for any autoloader or revolver, and I've never had a failure to feed due to it. Maybe this is overstating the case a little bit?

It does make the bullet seating step a little faster and smoother though.

A figure "8" cartridge case shape is the result of overly resized cases, nothing more. It's generally harmless, all it does is lead to premature body splits. Yes, ranger is correct. You might see premature case splits if your brass is more resized than is strictly necessary. Now, there's seveal things that contribute to a case splitting, and a case splitting is nothing more than nature's way of letting you know it's time to toss that one out. Cast bullets are a little larger than jacketed bullets, and they do stretch the case walls a bit more than jacketed slugs will, so you see this effect that ranger calls the "figure 8" a lot with those loads. 99.5% of my reloads are cast bullets. Most of my cases have been reloaded at least 10 times, and many are pushing 20+. You will always get a few that split after just a few loadings. Must just be impurities in the brass or whatever. Then it seems to settle down and you might split 1/100 every three times you reload a case. If you're splitting one or two every time you reload a batch, you might want to adjust your set-up to reduce how much you're working the brass. Or not. 9mm brass is cheaper than breathing. And anyway, you'll lose most of it LONG before the brass gets worn out.

But, like Bushmaster said, all us reloaders have our own quirky little ways of doing things.

You'll be an opinionated old curmudgeon too, soon enough! :D

-Sam

[Doug b]

Possibly that "figure 8" appearance has more to do with the dimensional control of the process used in inserting that hardened ring into a die body. I still have steel pistol dies and they load a round that does not resemble a snake swallowing a pig.

[The Bushmaster]

Oh man...Now I'm being called a Curmudgeon...I just thought I was "anal"...:evil:

[ny32182]

I guess I should pull a few and see if I'm scratching them. I was shooting approximately 1" or so off a rest at around 7 yards, not really concentrating on shooting the tightest group humanly possible; just wanted to make sure they were on target and reasonably accurate. That is really all I need for IDPA. It was at a lighter charge level than I am using now however.

[Sam1911]

Oh man...Now I'm being called a Curmudgeon...I just thought I was "anal"...

Well, you'll have to pick one or the other. No man deserves to be referred to a an "anal curmudgeon!" I'm not exactly sure why, but I do know that's just not an o.k. thing to call someone! :eek:


:D

-Sam

[The Bushmaster]

L O L I've been called worse...:D

[Steve C]

As mentioned, the case is usually expanded to proper size and belled in the same operation. Ths sizing die reduces the ouside case diameter to less than maximum dimensions and the ID of the case depends upon the case wall thickness which usually makes it too small untill the expander brings the ID of the bullet holding portion of the caee back to proper dimensions.



Generally if you don't expand and bell you will crush the case at the case mouth unless you are loading a hevaily beveled bullet. Just try starting a bullet by hand in a case that's been resized and not expanded or belled and you'll figure out why its needed.