223-08?

i was just playing around last night. i had a semi- crushed 223 shell, and the .30 caliber neck sizer die was in the press. i dabbed a little stp into the neck of the 223 shell, and viola, a 223-08. anybody ever do anything in the real world with this concept? i figure it has to be close to a 30 carbine, and i have no intention of trying to make it into a real caliber. i am just curious.

It would be very similar to the .300 Whisper. And that's a GOOD thing! :-)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.300_Whisper

-Sam

I thought I had seen it with another name, but here is one version (http://ammoguide.com/?catid=473). It's about as far as you can go and retain a shoulder on the 223 case.

You have your terminology a bit off. It would be more like a .30-.223. Don't worry, it's been done--many times!

It would be more like a .30-.223.

That's what I was thinking.

Aww, heck. Why not call it a .30-5.56? Then you can really mix things up!

-Sam

The guys over on ar15.com are doing a 7.62x40mm IIRC

It would be close to a 7mm TCU. It would have a little more punch than a 300 whisper since you cut down the brass to make a whisper. It would probably be pretty close to the old factory 30-30 loads.

As far as your original naming order goes you have a overkill varmint round. A 308 necked down to 223. That has been done too.

As far as your original naming order goes you have a overkill varmint round. A 308 necked down to 223. That has been done too.

NAW, OVERKILL is a 50 BMG necked down to a 22 caliber bullet! and i do believe that has also been done. but i wonder how long of a barrel you would need to burn all that powder?!?!? 8 feet, maybe 10 feet?!? no matter what, it would just be rediculous.

NAW, OVERKILL is a 50 BMG necked down to a 22 caliber bullet! and i do believe that has also been done. but i wonder how long of a barrel you would need to burn all that powder?!?!? 8 feet, maybe 10 feet?!? no matter what, it would just be rediculous.

Awww, you're just trying to steal my thunder with my soon to be infamous ".17-20mm Ackley Improved!" I would have just necked the 20mm case down to .17, but I figured, why not do Mr. Ackley proud and blow the shoulder forward, too? But I did him one better, the shoulder is pushed PAST perpendicular to the neck. Case volume is measured in gallons...Muzzle velocity is so high as to be practically unmeasureable. Especailly as the bullet vaporizes into superheated plasma before it even leaves the barrel!

:evil:

-Sam

Awww, you're just trying to steal my thunder with my soon to be infamous ".17-20mm Ackley Improved!" I would have just necked the 20mm case down to .17, but I figured, why not do Mr. Ackley proud and blow the shoulder forward, too? But I did him one better, the shoulder is pushed PAST perpendicular to the neck. Case volume is measured in gallons...Muzzle velocity is so high as to be practically unmeasureable. Especailly as the bullet vaporizes into superheated plasma before it even leaves the barrel!

I'm working on a 17-20mm too. My plan is to fire a small gun barrel out of the 20 mm case, then fire the 17 cal once the little gun clears the gun barrel. So the velocity should be double what is possible with normal powders. But I'm not sure if the 17 cal barrel needs to be rifled since the little gun will already be stable once it is fired. Any suggestions?

Griz, that's GENIOUS!

We should merge this with the thread about the Finnish 20mm deringer. We could develop a gun where the bullet is so disproportionately large that you actually hold the bullet still and shoot the gun itself at your target!

:D

-Sam

As we get farther OT, consider the Booster Gun.
Have auxiliary chambers staggered up the barrel, with additional powder charges ignited as the bullet goes by to keep pressure up to the maximum.

q.v.
'If This Goes On' R. Heinlein
"High Pressure Pump" A. Hitler

308 necked to 223 is a 22-250 basically.
and a 300 whisper is a necked up 221 fireball

I read about the real deal of necking a .50 BMG to .22. As I recall, it was a 48" barrel (could be a bit off there), but he never had a bullet hit the target and never got it chronographed because the bullets were apparently desintegrating. He gave up after 20 shots because the barrel was burned out! This was in a gun mag a few years back, like in 1974 or 75.

Yes a 300 is a necked up 221 but it is cheaper to run a 223 thought a sizer and trim to length. You also dont thin out the neck so much like you do with a 221 so longer brass life.
I would say a 223-08 would be closer to a 220 swift as far as case capacity goes. You have .100 inch longer and .050 inch more diameter at the shoulder.

The usual version is a .22-243, less neckdown to do than for .308 brass.
Ballistics are at or over Swift.

There are probably more decendants of the .308 Winchester than any other round (with the possible exception of the .284 Winchester). I searched for the basic case dims for the .308 and children and got this...
http://ammoguide.com/gfx/web/cartridges/308based.gif (http://ammoguide.com/)
(Note: Some of the above are not decendants of the .308 and actually pre-date it. They show up here because they come within the tolerances I specified to the .308 in rim size and case length.)

Group picture of some of the 'fam' (including the .224 bore variant, the original poster's query)...
http://ammoguide.com/gfx/web/cartridges/308family.gif (http://ammoguide.com/)

Compare ballistics for the above here:
http://ammoguide.com/?tool=bcompare&it=197%7c122%7c109%7c331%7c15%7c92%7c485%7c65

The cases based on the .250 Savage and the .300 savage are not decendants of the .308 they precede it by quite a bit of time

If you want to get right down too it, they are all based on the 7mm Mauser case of 1892.

rc

While AmmoGuide doesn't list the .17-20mm :-) it does host these bigguns...
http://ammoguide.com/gfx/web/cartridges/bigguns.gif (http://ammoguide.com/)

Those rounds are:
.50 Fat Mac (http://ammoguide.com/?catid=445) (Actually based on the .20mm!)

.375-50 BMG (http://ammoguide.com/?catid=392)

12 Gauge From Hell (http://ammoguide.com/?catid=613)

S&H 2-Bore BP Express (http://ammoguide.com/?catid=489)

Compare ballistics for the above here: (Sorry, limited info available for .375-50)
http://ammoguide.com/?tool=bcompare&it=445%7c392%7c613%7c489

If you want to get right down too it, they are all based on the 7mm Mauser case of 1892.

rc

not quite because 7x57 is predated by 8x57 and 7.65x53mm 1888-9

The cases based on the .250 Savage and the .300 savage are not decendants of the .308 they precede it by quite a bit of time
Yup, same with the 7.65 Mauser and a few others. That's why I added:
(Note: Some of the above are not decendants of the .308 and actually pre-date it. They show up here because they come within the tolerances I specified to the .308 in rim size and case length.)
The "Cartridge Identification and Search Tool" is a very unique resource - it matches case dimensions. I assume you've heard of those and simply don't read posts very closely before you respond to them.

Please note the "Searched for..." description above the table.

If you want to get right down too it, they are all based on the 7mm Mauser case of 1892.
Dimensionally, yes, insofar as rim and head profile and as noted, the 7x57 borrowed from older rounds there. When ther US developed the Springfield, they paid Mauser for the rights to borrow from his design and then went to "improve" on it (in the US's opinion anyway :-)

But that's where the geneology ends. Ballistically, the .308-series of rounds have higher working pressures and correspondingly higher performance as we came to better understand internal ballistics in the intervening half-century. Compare the .308 and the round it replaced, the .30-06. The new kid was MUCH shorter (at the expense of powder capacity) but the difference in velocity was less than 100 fps. The Springield's designers would have been amazed.

Remember, in the 1890's, we still hadn't quite gotten the hang of smokeless powder. Witness the difference between the .30-40 Krag and the .30-06 (which actually began life in 1903). The '06 benefitted a lot from what was learned in the decade between their introductions. And in the 20's the industry would again advance the art when we learned how to properly utilize slow burning smokeless powders. Rounds like the .257 Roberts suddenly became super performers and paved the way for true hyper velocity cartridges like the .220 Swift (4000+ fps).

And yes, the rim/head was dimensionally virtually the same as those early Mauser rounds, save being Boxer primed. Still is, in brand new rounds like the .338 Federal.

The .30-.223 has been around a while, at least since the late 60s or early 70s. It was used in handgun metallic silhouette back in the day.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

Mike
I was just ruminating on the sad fact that you have not created a cartridge and weapon, named in your honor of course, that will shoot 5 shot strings through the same hole.

Think of it!!! Shooters across the country would be able to duplicate the 5 shot/one-hole. They could stand there and scream "I've shot my first Haas hole"!

And if a disgrunteled shooter can't control himself and tears up the other guys target. People could say that he ripped a new Haas hole.

...NAW, OVERKILL is a 50 BMG necked down to a 22 caliber bullet!...
Some people talk about it, others...
http://ammoguide.com/gfx/web/joinme/22-50bmg.gif http://ammoguide.com/gfx/web/joinme/22-50bmg-top80p.gif

...Think of it!!! Shooters across the country would be able to duplicate the 5 shot/one-hole. They could stand there and scream "I've shot my first Haas hole"!...
Uhh... thanks???

Man, when I first saw the .223-08 I was thinking, you are out of your freakin' mind....then yeah, agree...30-223 or .300 Whisper....:D Would make a fun little round though.
How about necking up a .243 to .30 :) J/K
Also learned something that I never knew. I always thought a .22-250 was a necked down .284 or something....not a .308 :) Weird but cool. Not sure if it was listed, but what is a -06 necked to .243? 6mm-08?

I don't know if it's been mentioned but over on ar15.com in the variants section there's a very extensive thread on a 7.62x40mm wildcat

The 50 fat mac is one heck of a round. I can't imagine hanging on to a gun capable of shoving a 750 grain bullet at 3400FPS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The 22-250 is a necked doen 250 savage, not a 308.