[conwict]

Hey guys,

I am having a sort of Fred Perrin inspired (can't pay his $60) leather wallet/coin purse/sap made and thought others might be interested. I am having a cobbler do the work, the same guy who wraps my blackjacks in leather.

I have full scale plans drawn and I'm not sure the cost yet (going by the cobbler today to get my first one started), but thought others might be interested. Google to get an idea what I'm talking about, but the dimensions will be about 2.5"x10", two thick pieces of leather plus a strap with a snap to secure it folded over a belt.

I'm not trying to make money off this, but thought I'd pass savings onto other THR members. I'm guessing it will be $25-30, plus shipping of course. USPS $3 first class mail or whatever should work fine.

Will post pics when I get it later this week.

[glistam]

I'm a little curious, does this one look like a blackjack? I've seen a few that don't look any different from purpose-built bludgeons apart from a zipper on the side. Something tells me LEOs and TSA will not buy it.

[conwict]

http://www.donrearic.com/images/perrinthreeitems.jpg

Not very different from that one, except likely not in black. It's basically your average coin pouch, except longer. See that strap with a snap? That snaps around the pouch, doubled-over, to give you a carry method.

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g126/trekon86/sapcarry.jpg

I don't think it looks like much of anything besides a coin purse. It's all about presentation. There are plenty of reasons to carry quarters in a pouch. Heck, I'd love to keep change from jangling in my pocket; in the course of shopping at a few stores I always seem to have too much or not enough.

[Vonderek]

It's basically your average coin pouch
It's an interesting concept but to be honest I have never in my life seen anyone in public wearing anything like that. It reminds me of something I would see at a Renaissance festival. Doesn't it attract unwanted attention from other people?

[glistam]

That design doesn't look so bad. That's much more passable that other designs I've seen. Personally, I have a long leather drawstring bag I keep in a pocket. It originally was for a condenser microphone.

For those who are interested, way back when I did the math on American and British coins in a similar thread. It's about density rather than mass. Contrary to what you might think, the nickle is densest coin in the US, while the 20p in the densest UK coin.

[CWL]

I think it is extremely uncool for you to not only rip-off Fred Perrin's design, but you are using his pictures to sell these knock-offs.

Whether or not you plan on making a profit, you are ripping somebody off.

[kingpin008]

I kinda have to agree with Vonderek - I've never seen anyone actually wearing something like that outside of a Renn Faire - that doesn't mean that it's a bad idea, just...unconventional.

Also, I wonder how useful it'd be in a real life scenario - The way it's secured to one's belt doesn't exactly look like it'd be easy to deploy if needed.

[Larry Ashcraft]

After some clarification from the OP, I've come to the conclusion I was wrong to close this thread, so I reopened it.

[nalioth]

I think it is extremely uncool for you to not only rip-off Fred Perrin's designI don't think ol' Fred has exclusive rights to the concept.

Leather money pouches have been used as blunt instruments for hundreds of years . . .

I also think ol' Fred is REALLY proud of his stuff, and if conwict wants to give us the opportunity to employ his cobbler, I think that's great.

[Carl Levitian]

I don't know.

Does this thing have enough of an impact to really do some damage in a confrontation, vs the butt end of a AA minimag in a hammer fist?

It looks a little like one poster said, somethng from a ren fair. I'm leary of things that look too out of place, and can't be identified in a glance as some everyday object. Unusual means a second look from security people, and I don't like getting a second look.

I guess I'm a little leary.

[auschip]

I think it is extremely uncool for you to not only rip-off Fred Perrin's design, but you are using his pictures to sell these knock-offs.

Whether or not you plan on making a profit, you are ripping somebody off.

Agreed. I could maybe almost understand doing one for yourself, but offering to sell them?

[conwict]

Guys,

I don't really know Fred Perrin or that much about him. I do know that he has a good, if not proprietary, design for a very simple coin purse. Thing is, his coin purse is actually a beefed up version of countless other coin purses. The strength is, literally, in the strength of the design. From what I've read about Mr. Perrin I really respect him, and I'm not trying to undercut his earnings or anything like that. In fact, if he personally asked me to, I would delete this thread.

That said, I saw a design I liked that was not anything earth-shakingly new, took it to my cobbler, and found I could have it done more cheaply than it's offered online. Frankly I consider THR, especially this subforum, to be a circle of my friends. I really didn't anticipate any backlash about "stealing" the design, and I'm sorry I offended a few of you. I just don't think this design is original enough to patent or anything. And my intent was not to even turn a profit, but to do what I enjoy doing - designing something, having it made to fit my needs, and helping out friends.

[conwict]

Does this thing have enough of an impact to really do some damage in a confrontation, vs the butt end of a AA minimag in a hammer fist?

It looks a little like one poster said, somethng from a ren fair. I'm leary of things that look too out of place, and can't be identified in a glance as some everyday object. Unusual means a second look from security people, and I don't like getting a second look.

I guess I'm a little leary.

I guess it depends on how you use it. I know a nickel weighs exactly 5 grams, maybe 6-7 for a quarter? Put 50 quarters in there and you have a 3/4 lb impact weapon (as well as a great coin purse). I think the sap design is proven and tested, and this doesn't really seem that different from a "soft sap."

As for the "second glance," I hear you. But I think if you were a tourist, it might make sense to have a bunch of stuff on your belt. Hey, the fanny pack survives, despite its...ahem...utilitarian look :). If you aren't a tourist, you won't be dealing with security or TSA much, and can just keep it concealed under a shirt.

[Gordon]

I'd BUY one of Perrins proven design and construction, After all it's a Phrench purse. I think if it only had a few coins and some $ and ID TSA would pass it. Later at your destination rearrange the load! And yes, from 50 years of sap tales and personal use I think 1/2 a pound or more of silver coins are gonna give someone tweety birds to the side or back of head with a moderate blow.

[Deltaboy]

Cool, I have used a older draw string leather coin bag filled with pennies over the years. Nothing like using various applications to the things you already have or need.

[GoodKat]

I'm sorry but that thing screams "SAP!!!!" and would immediately raise my suspicion.

[LAK]

A long thin strongly stitched bag made of 'roo leather with a handful of change would work well.

[conwict]

LAK, I have an updated thread with actual pics of the one I had constructed. Turned out really nicely.

[Deltaboy]

Cool I will have to find one!

[TimboKhan]

Well, in theory, I like the concept. In practice, and for me personally, it is a no-go on several fronts.

1. No offense Conwict, but it is a little goofy looking. Opinions being what they are, don't take it personally.

2. I don't carry enough coins on me, ever, to justify even owning a coin purse. In fact, if I can avoid carrying coins at all, I do. On those occasions that I have change, I get it out of my pockets as soon as possible.

3. Being a big fat guy, carrying that thing on my belt with enough coins in it to make a difference simply means that I am going to be at constant risk of my pants falling off at any moment. Sounds funny, is funny, but it's true. Embarrassingly and humorously, my pants have headed for the deck on a number of occasions, thus I don't like to carry much more than my wallet, a knife and a can of chew.

4. How fast can that thing be yanked off your belt? If someone like me did carry it, my belt would have to be pretty tight (uncomfortably so, in fact), and it seems like it would be a pain to get it clear of the belt so I could whack someone with it. Keep in mind I am just talking from my perspective. Maybe you in shape people wouldn't have any problems.

[JohnKSa]

A homemade sap is a homemade sap. Doesn't matter if you fill it with lead shot, sand or coins, it's still a homemade sap. I guess you could hope that you only encounter really stupid or really gullible cops...

[conwict]

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=5869834

There is a link to the updated thread, with pics.

Timbo, my homemade version doesn't look too bad...actually IMO it looks like a nice menswear item you might pick up at a western wear type place. Not very common, but honestly I have shown it to at least 10 people none of whom thought it was strange. A few thought it was a knife carry case.

Also, basically the way the strap holds it to your belt doesn't require any tension in the belt itself. The snap strap clips around the doubled-over change purse, creating a loop in the change purse that goes over the belt.

John, maybe you're right, I dunno. As I read it, saps are legal in NC anyway, but I wouldn't have pegged this for an intentional weapon if I had just seen it in a store somewhere, or on someone's belt. Probably hard to prove in court unless they knew my screen name :)

[4v50 Gary]

Watch the TSA confiscate it and the money. It's for your safety and the safety of your fellow passengers.

[conwict]

Oh, one more thing: this doesn't really lend itself to conventional sap/blackjack tactics, i.e. targeted blows to the arms/chest/neck. It's more of a momentum-based flexible weapon that works best with repeated follow-up strikes. There is a good video of Perrin demonstrating on Youtube, search for it if interested.

Also, to me Perrin's design is great but the main flaws are the fact that it is black and as part of the emblem has an outline of a Perrin Le Griffe on it. Kind of a dead giveaway.

It's pretty quick to deploy with a little practice. You don't really have to unsnap the snap rivet.

[conwict]

Gary, we shall see I guess...not that I'm a frequent flier.

As someoene suggested, I believe the proper strategy would be to carry a bunch of bills and ID in it when crossing security check points, then fill with coins at the first opportunity. I'm not even that concerned about using it aboard a plane, but rather having a viable weapon when I reach my destination. Being on a plane is fairly safe.

[JohnKSa]

There is a good video of Perrin demonstrating on Youtube, search for it if interested.Yup that pretty much tears it.

A sap made to look like a coin purse with one maker demonstrating what a good weapon it is on youtube. Might as well just carry a pistol--the penalty is the same.

[conwict]

John,

I disagree...respectfully.

Here's the thing. To my understanding, every checkpoint/border officer/etc is trained to look for weapons, and is quite good at it. But there are many "discretionary" items, like books, pens, metal bottles, and even coin purses, that COULD be used as weapons. If this is not the item's obvious primary intent, these officers are WAY less likely to confiscate it.

That youtube video, IIRC, has like 400 views. Even if all 400 of those views were security checkpoint officers, I still doubt I'd run into them. Even if I did run into them, I am not carrying Fred Perrin's branded product.

If I use this, there is a slim chance I might get prosecuted (outside of my home state) for using a prohibited weapon. There is an even slimmer chance that the Youtube video, or the item being sold commercially that resembles this one, might enter into evidence. While I doubt this would happen, I feel I have plausible deniability because a coin purse is basically a coin purse. ANY coin purse with a strap/securing mechanism could be used in this way.

Since I do not plan to use it in a way other than a coin purse, or perhaps justified self-defense, I do not expect to encoutner these problems.

Again, I mean this respectfully. I understand your extreme caution and invite anyone reading the thread to decide for themselves.

Have a good one.

[conwict]

Oh...now I'm just gonna give you a hard time John. As people from Texas often do, you seem to be assuming that the laws where you are apply everywhere :neener:...in fact, my state does not treat saps/blackjacks anything like unlicensed carry guns. And I do have a carry gun, and do carry it, with a license, along with a blackjack.

[JohnKSa]

If this is not the item's obvious primary intent, these officers are WAY less likely to confiscate it.First of all, who cares about confiscation? I'd be worried about prosecution, not confiscation.

Second, yes, they're less likely to key on it, but again, I care a lot less about the odds than I do about the penalty.Even if I did run into them, I am not carrying Fred Perrin's branded product.I'm not sure why you think you'd get a free ride for carrying a copy instead of the original article. Would prosecution be less likely if one were caught illegally carrying a homemade gun vs one with a noted gunmaker's name on it?you seem to be assuming that the laws where you are apply everywhereYou're right, I don't know the penalty everywhere, but it seems a fair assumption that anyone carrying one of these "coin purses" is in an area where the penalty for carrying a blackjack/sap is severe enough to prevent them from carrying a blackjack.

If not they'd just carry a blackjack/sap....and do carry it...along with a blackjack.Like you do...

Maybe I'm wrong--maybe cops and prosecutors really are dumb enough to be fooled by a leather bag full of nickels that looks and works like a sap.

[conwict]

John, the significance of the product lacking a brand that can be Googled is that if you do go to court, in which case you can request a jury trial, you do not have some prosecutor googling "Fred Perrin" and finding a dude who makes lapel daggers, etc.

Second, I think we are more or less talking about the same thing in a slightly different way. If you use a coin purse as a sap, can you be charged for using it as a sap? Yeah, I guess, but it strikes me as more likely that you will be charged with assault if applicable, or free to go. And we both seem to agree that if you aren't using it, you probably won't be bothered. Well, personally, if I use it in an unfamiliar area as a tourst I probably won't be sticking around 10-60 minutes for cops to show up anyway, if the area was unsafe to begin with (this is called "reality," and it is not legal advice for others).

Strikes me as being similar to: You could be charged with possessing/using a prohibited item (club) for hitting someone with a steel pipe off the ground, but if you were justified in doing it your chances go down.

Anyway...your contributions are appreciated. Thanks.