Blackpowder weapons for concealed carry?


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Preacherman
December 22, 2002, 12:49 AM
I just had to start this forum out with the funniest post I ever read on The Firing Line's "Black Powder And Cowboy Action Shooting" forum (see here (http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=121451) for the original). It started with the question:Does anyone use a black powder firearm as a defensive weapon? If so what are you using and why?

Has anyone ever actually had to use a black powder firearm for defence? If so what happened?
The immediate answer, that had me rolling on the floor with laughter, was posted by Kalindras: I've "censored" some of the more robust language for this thread.Only person I know who's a lunatic enough to do it is my friend Terry.

Terry went out, just after they passed the law, here in Texas, and applied. Despite everything, he was issued a permit in the first 1000 (I'll have to check on the number). His reason?

"I've always wanted to carry an 1860 Cap-n-Ball."

And he does. He carries a reproduction 1860 Army (an Uberti) in a custom-made leather shoulder holster (did I mention that Terry is very TALL?!?). He carries (or carried, haven't asked him in a while) it with one empty chamber, two chambers loaded with nothing but powder and wadding, and three chambers loaded up with lead.

One night, we were down in Austin, walking down Guadalupe after hitting 6th, and this little punk comes around the corner of the Celtic store (there's bit of open space, there, so we'd seen him coming...but we were drunk, and didn't really think anything about it. Terry was REAL drunk. Red-in-the-face drunk.). He sticks his hand in the pocket of his jacket and thrusts it forward at me. Even drunk, I did what any little black duck would do. I slipped behind Terry. Unabashed, the kid pointed at Terry and demanded our wallets. Terry, drunk and belligerent, told him to go **** himself (actually, he described it more graphically, but let's not belabour the point). The exchange from there went something like this:

BG: Man, I'll blow your head off!
Terry: With what? *laughs*
BG: [Thrusts hand in pocket forward] I've got a gun, man! I'll put a cap in yo' fat a**!
Terry: S**t. That finger wouldn't even get THROUGH the fat on my a**! Why don't'cha get a REAL gun?!? [reaches into jacket]
BG: Man, I'm warning you! I'll blow you away!
Terry: Then do it! It's you or me... [pulls out "The Cannon"]
BG: HOLY S**T!!!! WHUT THE **** IS THAT?!?
Terry: Punk-a** insurance! [points it in the air as the kid turns to run]
BG: MOTHUH******!!!

At this point, Terry squeezed off the first "BANG-BANG" chamber, with the resultant cloud of smoke and that low roar that BP makes. When the smoke cleared, Terry was on the ground laughing hysterically. The kid was nowhere to be seen. And me? I was sober. Totally, completely, and unquestioningly sober. Total time? About twelve seconds. If I could market stark terror, I'd be rich. It cures hangovers, lethargy, curiousity, and a HOST of other ailments, in my experience.

When he sobered up, Terry was aghast. He was like, "OH, S**T!!! What if the cops had busted me drunk?!?" At no point had he even considered that the kid just MIGHT have had a real gun. It had never even entered his head--that he might have gotten shot and killed.

Haven't partied much with Terry in a few years...but I hear he's still a bit of a Heller. Kinda strange. He seems to get worse as he ages, instead of mellowing...

Kal

May we have equally hysterical posts on this forum from time to time!

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C.R.Sam
December 22, 2002, 02:33 AM
Responsible....no.
A hoot....definately.
I see nothing wrong with usin a big bore BP gun for defence if one is practiced with it. Beats the whey out of a derringer.

Firing it without cause is a bit over the line tho.
Carryin while hammered drunk is WAY over the line.

Some mellow with age.
Others of us ripen with age...and smell like it.

Sam

Steve Smith
December 23, 2002, 12:48 AM
You can't buy a handgun 'till you're 21. In CO, you can't carry concealed 'till you're 25 and get a permit.


You don't have to be 21 to buy a blackpowder gun.

How's an 18 year old going to carry a little protection?


Sometimes you follow the rules as best as you can, and then you do what it takes to get along.

Preacherman
December 23, 2002, 02:31 AM
Steve - I think you meant "blackpowder" gun... :D

Steve Smith
December 23, 2002, 02:35 AM
A wise-guy, eh?


Fixed it.

4v50 Gary
December 23, 2002, 06:17 PM
The blackpowder advantage for the 18 year old.

I bought mine (Ruger Old Army) from Gil Hebard when I was 18. Calif. wanted me to be 21 and go through a FFL. I decided not to wait so I just wrote a check and Gil sent the gun. He's happy, I'm happy and I've never fired a shot in anger (a good man's gotta know his limitations and I'm a good man).

Second advantage of close range firing with the blackpowder is that even if you miss, you set them afire. I use to shoot mine on New Year's Eve or on July 4th. No lead ball, just wadded up foil that wouldn't go beyond 8 feet before it open and float harmlessly to the ground. But the flame. At least 6 feet long and if you stood to the side during the night, you'd see it too. What a flamethrower.:D

Schuey2002
December 24, 2002, 02:44 PM
I kick this off with a ...:D :D :D :D ROTFLMAO !!

Mike Weber
December 24, 2002, 03:25 PM
Howdy Gary:
I made it over from TFL. I remember this story from over at TFL. Carry of a BP gun for self defence could work overall performance wouldn't match what we have today in bullets or ballistics. Cap and ball revolvers have proven themselves quite deadly though. I think that the new snub nosed Coltb1860 Army clone being sold by Cabelas would be a good choice of one were choosing a BP CCW weapon. Of course a full sized revolver in a skeletonized shoulder holster would work too. Tuning things up to insure reliable ignition would be top priority with a C&B revolver. I had to camfer the nipples on three out of four of my Navy Arms C&B revolvers a pair of 1860 Colt and a pair of 1851 Colts to make the caps seat and fire properly. I also shoot Remington New Model Army revolvers in CAS competition along with my other C&B revolvers. Even with a reliable C&B there is still the occaisional missfire, usually a problem with the cap ignition. Combine this with poorer ballistic performance than modern handguns and you can see that these aren't the best choice for self defense. They are fun shooters though.

Gewehr98
December 24, 2002, 03:33 PM
I followed through with my intentions for Christmas this year. Now both of my stepsons in Southern ********** have replica 1858 Remington .44 blackpowder revolvers as their ready weapons. No paperwork on file with either the Feds or Kali DOJ, and they practice for fairly cheap without having to pay an ammo tax where they live near LA. Last I heard, they were going to try those Pyrodex pellets for revolvers, with the conical lubed bullets. ;)

Jim Watson
December 24, 2002, 04:24 PM
Cap and ball revolvers served real well from 1836 til way up in the 1870s. Wild Bill Hickock stayed with them even after the SAA was on the market.

However, from watching CAS C&B shooters, the guns they are turning out these days would have got you kilt daid if you had to depend on them against the hostiles. Most of them need a good deal of tuning for reliability. They are made as toys, not weapons.

Ian
December 24, 2002, 05:04 PM
I've had very good luck with my two 1860 Army clones (Piettas) - my one serious malfunction was my fault (I seated a ball improperly and shaved a big hunk of lead off it, allowing it to slide halfway out of the cylinder and lock the gun up upon firing other cylinders). I would love to use one for an open carry weapon... I reall like the "old" look and feel of them (an SAA would be almost as good). I also found the lack of regulation very nice - I was 18 when I ordered them, and they showed up at the door two days later with nary a hassle.

BigG
December 24, 2002, 05:11 PM
I went to a defensive handgun course where we fired about 600 rounds as I recall. One feller brought (this is no bull) a long barreled Ruger single action carried Mexican style. He soon switched to an autoloader.

BTW, love the smell. PU

El Tejon
December 24, 2002, 10:32 PM
Back in my LE daze, one of the security bailiffs on our floor, a retired eastside copper, made a career of doing stuff to irk his boss, the county sheriff. The SD had an issue weapon, but one could carry whatever bug you qual'd with.

The bailiff waits until the Sheriff himself is out at the range qualifying and then proceeds to qual beside the Sheriff with a `58 Remington blackpowder. The Sheriff, coughing, stomped off the range.

Why he wasn't fired I have no idea. The bailiff still works the same post (but the Sheriff is now the US Marshal for the District).

Jim Watson
December 24, 2002, 11:53 PM
Thunder Ranch has done one or a few 19th century classes, Mike Venturino and a few other diehards have run it with black - cartridge, not C&B. You can get the job done, if you work on it.

Calamity Jane
December 25, 2002, 02:36 AM
I guess I could carry my .50 cal. percussion pistol, but I'd have a heck of a time finding a holster to fit it. The danged thing is HUMONGOUS.

Plus - I'd have to convert my purse to a "possibles bag" and never, ever leave home without my powder horn. ;)

Dave Markowitz
December 25, 2002, 10:58 AM
A black powder wouldn't be my first choice for a defensive gun -- but it wouldn't be my last, either. I'd rather be armed with my Colt Navy, Dragoon, or Ruger Old Army than with a mousegun. Naturally, these lack the portability of a mousegun but I'd take one of them over anything less than a 9mm Mak for defense.

ruger357
December 26, 2002, 03:25 PM
Why not the ultimate nasel spray from hell, the NAA cap and ball version of their mini revolvers.

Kalindras
December 27, 2002, 12:34 PM
Originally posted by Preacherman
It started with the question:The immediate answer, that had me rolling on the floor with laughter, was posted by Kalindras

May we have equally hysterical posts on this forum from time to time!

Glad I could bring you a smile, Preacherman!! :D While I certainly haven't hit "Lawdog" status, if I can occasionally score one that folks'll remember, then it's worth it.

Been trying to track Terry down for the last month or so--I try to make it a point at least once a decade or so to track down all of my friends and remind them that our lives once intersected, and may do so again!! He's a trig one, though. Apparently, he moved from Austin in '99. I tracked him to Laredo, and then he seems to have dropped off the face of the earth. I'm still on his trail, though. Heck, I may even have to make this a road trip!!!

That's SURE to generate some tales... ;) :p

Kal

Preacherman
December 28, 2002, 12:20 AM
Glad to know you're here, Kalindras. Bring us some more of those threads! :D

Random Discharge
December 31, 2002, 10:10 AM
Ruger's latest Old Army offering comes to mind for BP concealed carry. Though chopping 2 whole inches from a revolver that starts out over a foot long probably doesn't help much in either the concealment or ballistics department. I've got my eye on one anyway for fun, not CCW.
R.D.

Poodleshooter
December 31, 2002, 09:01 PM
I wouldn't trust my Pietta '58 Remington copy with self defense, but that's just because it was a piece of junk, reliability wise.
Nothing like shooting one shot, then having all the other caps fall off (regardless of brand or #10,#11 size).

sixgun_symphony
January 1, 2003, 06:29 PM
I carried a .31 caliber vest pocket Derringer for 6 months. It was made of bronze rather than iron or steel.

It uses #11 caps and I load 10gr FFG with .31 caliber swaged roundball.

My other weapon was a blackjack kept in my coat pocket.

Jim K
January 2, 2003, 08:26 PM
I once knew a fellow who carried a Colt Pocket Model .31 caliber in Washington, D.C. I kept looking in the papers to see if there were any reports of a body with one buckshot in it, but never did, so I suspect he never used it.

A good BP revolver is just as good as a fixed ammo gun for the first 5/6 shots. And anyone who thinks a BP revolver is not dangerous can ask a fellow named "Jeb" Stuart when they run across him.

I often load with cartridges, though, and this confuses the heck out of the powder flask guys.

Jim

foghornl
January 3, 2003, 04:45 PM
I carried my 1858 Army Remington replica many years back. Was working a shift where I got off at 3:00AM
Left the building after shift, only to find hood of my car up, and some guy working under the hood....
Me: "what R U doing' ? ?
BG: "I'm gonna rip this guys battery. My car quit.
Me: "I don't think so. That's MY car."
BG: (whipping around quickly) "Yes I am"....flashes a medium size kife in my general direction.
Me: Drawing 1858 Army Remington 7 1/2" barrel .44 "Your best bet is to hit the bricks....NOW ! ! ! ! " ...thumbing back hammer.
BG: Oh [very colorful language deleted] ! ! ! ! ! ! ! throws down knife and beats feet accross parking lot.

Popped a round into the ground accross parking lot, drove home. Never saw BG again.

tex_n_cal
January 5, 2003, 03:36 AM
The funniest comment about a BP gun has to be from Sam Clemmons("Mark Twain"), writing about the "Pepperbox" (early revolver)

Apologies, I can't find the reference to it, so it goes something like:

"...and Mister Joe had one of those very new revolving type handguns, referred to by common folk as a 'pepperbox'. He was very proud of it, even though once Joe tried to fetch an ace of spades nailed to a tree, and instead fetched a mule standing about twenty paces to the left. Joe didn't want the mule, but the owner appeared with a shotgun, and obliged him to pay for it, anyway."

I want to say this is from Huckelberry Finn but I'm not sure. Anyone remember? :D

Dr.Rob
January 7, 2003, 10:17 PM
I knew a certain Scoutmaster that carried a loaded (replica) Colt Patterson under his serape at the campfires. He let me shoot it a few times.. really fun pistol. Don't know if he was expecting truble at the jamboree or?? He also had a "Blanket gun", which is a sawed off-trade musket filled with shot or buck and ball.

My Uncle had an off brand Navy "reb" in .44 cal with a short barrel he kept loaded, swore that he never ever used anything but Crisco to seal the cylinders.

There was an interesting article in gun digest YEARS ago about BP revolvers for "realistic" competition. The Colt 1862 police model got high marks, as did the bigger dragoon 44's (namely becasue they were easier to load).

The '58 Remington was said to jam less often, and scored nearly as well as the '60 Colt army, which all the writer thought had the best balance for a big revolver.

Your results may vary.

Gerald McDonald
February 18, 2003, 07:00 PM
Bring this one up to the top again, I have a friend who keeps one of the Starr D/A cap and ball replicas as a truck gun. he shoots it pretty good but has a tendancy to compress all of the powder he can in the chamber, never seal the round thats the 1st in line.

I wouldnt be too bothered with the 1851 Colt replica I have, never had a misfire in about 5 lbs of powder. This one is a 44 cal instead of 36 so trust me 5 lbs is a heck of a lot of shootin when its done about 25 grains at a time.

Gerald

BigG
February 18, 2003, 07:44 PM
According to Elmer Keith in "Sixguns," the .36 1851 Navy Colt (with Round Ball) was a far better killer on game than any 38 Special ever made. :what: He recommended round ball in any C&B gun for killing power.

Ryder
February 19, 2003, 01:52 AM
I've got a 45 caliber "deringer" I've carried concealed while hunting. Carries well, hammer is centerline, with a 4 (or 5?) inch barrel. Not much different than carrying a fixed blade knife in a sheath. No sights but it points well.

Only ever shot one living thing with it. Used it to finish off a tough old buck. Shot him in the side of the neck at a distance of 4-5 feet. Instant termination. I was very suprised with it's effectiveness.

Johnny Guest
February 20, 2003, 12:48 AM
some years before the Texas CHL law happened, I began looking for a way to legally carry a pistol when I left law enforcement. The law here doesn't count pre-1899 guns as "firearms." I shopped for an old, dogged out Colt Single Action Army. At the time, you could pick up such a thing for maybe $200. All I wanted was a frame and grip straps, so it would be clear that this was an OLD gun.

My plan was to replace all the internal parts, and the cylinder if need be. The barrel would be cut back to about 3-1/2 inches and the grip frame reworked into birds head shape. A set of decent sights, and I'd be ready to go. I thought that if the cylinder was at all usable, I'd handload black powder and 255 gr. SWCs. With a new cylinder, I would have used smokeless, of course.

This "Plan" might not be exactly in line with the point of this thread, though. I've shot up a few pounds of black powder, and would feel fairly well protected carrying a well-tuned .36 Navy with the barrel cut back to four or five inches. It would develoop much the same power as a good .380 auto. Better still would be an 1860 Army with cut back barrel and grip frame reshaped and shortened. A modern cap and ball piece, though, would still be counted a handgun, so the CHL would still be necessary.

Best,
Johnny

Warren
June 6, 2006, 03:11 AM
This thread deserve a bump.

Just a great series of posts.

RyanM
June 6, 2006, 03:59 AM
And relevant. I'm finally buying an NAA Companion tomorrow. Well, actually today. It's really looking like, with the custom stuff I'm having done, a Companion will be a much better carry piece than a cartridge mini. Better reliability, faster reloading, higher power.

Warren
June 6, 2006, 04:17 AM
Will you post a range report?

RyanM
June 6, 2006, 04:43 AM
I plan on it. :)

It probably won't be soon though, unfortunately. Depends on shipping time, and my days off.

WeedWhacker
June 6, 2006, 08:47 AM
It's really looking like, with the custom stuff I'm having done, a Companion will be a much better carry piece than a cartridge mini. Better reliability, faster reloading, higher power.

I can't argue about the power, and while the debate regarding rimfire reliability vs black powder may be open, even with the hideously complicated finger gymnastics involved with reloading a NAA cartridge mini (half-cock hammer; remove cylinder pin; remove cylinder; push pin through each chamber to eject empties; juggle frame, cylinder, pin, and five cartridges while inserting cartridges into chambers; keep rear end of cylinder pointed UP while re-inserting into frame; keep rear end of cylinder pointed UP while re-inserting cylinder pin and wiggling it and the cylinder back and forth until pin slides in and locks; cock hammer and off you go... finally. If you didn't drop anything), I can't see how BP is going to be faster than cartridges.

For my edification, what's the reload procedure on the Companion, specifically, if not most BP revolvers in general?

Zero_DgZ
June 6, 2006, 11:04 AM
My NAA Companion now goes where I go, with the included waistband holster. I leave all five loaded with the hammer locked at quarter cock like the manual says, with about a half load of smokeless stuffed in there instead of smoky black powder.

Cartridge pistol will be added to my inventory sometime in the next month or so - I haven't settled on a wheelgun or an auto yet. I like the single action because when I draw it and thumb the hammer it goes "click, click, clack" and people know what that noise means.

armoredman
June 6, 2006, 11:42 AM
I carried a Colt 1851 Navy repro once or twice, round ball 36. Nice revolver, and I will get another one in 44, steel frame, someday. Smokepoles are just fun, and useful!

RyanM
June 6, 2006, 02:32 PM
In this case, I'm having the chambers reamed, new nipples that take small pistol primers, and whatever else will improve the gun. NAA Companions should work fine with a full scoop full of whatever smokeless you want. I'm pretty sure they used to recommend Bullseye. I plan on trying IMR HiSkor 800-X, since that has very good results in .25 ACP.

If you don't have a spare cylinder, reloading is dirt slow. If you do, all you do is pop out the old cylinder and pop in the new one. Much faster. Can't do that with a cartridge mini unless you glue the cartridges into the spare cylinder or something.

Zero_DgZ
June 6, 2006, 03:48 PM
I always figured a sawn-off, black powder and cap shotgun (bonus points for a double barrel) would be a decent car gun. If my understanding is correct, black powder arms cannot be NFA items (to wit, there's a revolver repro with a center mounted 20 ga. barrel that's about six inches long...) so that would be an interesting close-quarter sidestep of the law.

RyanM
June 6, 2006, 04:28 PM
Depends. Cap and ball guns can be machine guns or "disguised weapon" type AOWs. But they're exempt (for now) from barrel length restrictions.

I ordered that Companion kit today, from capandballreplicas.com. Jennifer, the owner, seems like a nice person. Was more than willing to swap in the standard holster instead of the flap type holster, and then throw in a set of slightly more expensive free grips at my request, to make up for a little of the cost difference. Also got a small discount for asking if they match prices. I'd say I got a pretty good deal. The website said the gun'll take 5-10 business days to arrive. Poo. I don't like waiting for things.

Zero_DgZ
June 7, 2006, 11:14 AM
The Companion's real nice.

Next thing you know you'll be sitting on the firing line with a back of #4 buckshot in your lap, a buncha holes in the target, and you'll be fresh out of those 100 caps you just bought and figured would last a lifetime.

Boom-stick
June 8, 2006, 10:49 AM
How do you carry the NAA?

I've got the Freedom Arms CnB and have been looking for a decent holster.

Dan

RyanM
June 8, 2006, 02:42 PM
I'm going to carry mine in the clip-on IWB holster that comes with it some of the time, and in a pocket otherwise. I plan on making a kydex pocket holster.

I don't know if I'll have enough kydex left after to make another one though. Will have to wait and see. Although, shipping the gun from and to England for fitting would cost like a million pounds sterling. You could try seeing if the holsters NAA makes will fit?

Manyirons
June 8, 2006, 03:07 PM
Tha BOSS carries one /NAA/ in a wrist band tha opposite side of a wristwatch. LONG sleeves of course. Or that little watch pocket in yer bluejeans.

Thought about just havin tha BOSS put a lanyard ring on one and carry it like a necklace.

Carl N. Brown
June 8, 2006, 03:39 PM
The smoke from BP is also good for concealment AFTER shooting.

tmackay3302
June 8, 2006, 08:39 PM
Kind of jumping back to the original topic real quick (everyone else, at ease :neener: ). I read a little while back about an older couple that were waking down the road by their house when a man claiming that he had a gun told them to hand over their possesions. The gentleman who was being held up whipped out a snubnose .44 cal bp revolver and shot the guy, who crumpled to the ground and died right there on the spot. I don't know if I got the story 100% right, but you get the gist of it. If someone wants to correct me feel free! I just thought this was kind of a cool story. Gentlemen, as you where!:p

MCgunner
June 8, 2006, 09:13 PM
The guy may be a complete idiot and probably shouldn't be allowed a carry permit, but the story is hillarious! Thanks for that. :D

gopguy
June 9, 2006, 10:06 AM
Cap and ball revolvers served real well from 1836 til way up in the 1870s. Wild Bill Hickock stayed with them even after the SAA was on the market.

Wild Bill reportedly also unloaded and reloaded the gun every day out of concern of the powder condensing and grease contamination. Somehow I think the guys carrying those old smokers today are not going through all that trouble...

Really now folks CCW is for protecting your life. I understand the argument about being between the ages of 18 and 21, but unless you are prohibited from having a modern handgun I am afraid you are taking a terrible chance by relying on obsolete technology. Heck, if you have to draw that thing and the bad guy knows much about guns and sees you pull a Colt 1862 pocket Navy or a huge Ruger old Army he may not take you serious......

I have had so many bad batches of caps I would not trust these for self defense and I have a fairly large collection of black powder handguns. Purely for paper punching fun. Do yourself a favor and carry a modern revolver or pistol of reputable make that is reliable.

Tearlachblair
June 9, 2006, 11:51 AM
In the 18-21 range (I just turnd 18, YAY!), can we carry them actually on our person or just in our vehicle?

Now, I just got a Traditions 1860 Army (I'll post pics soon!) and I already loaded it. How long should you keep a BP revolver loaded safely? And how on earth did Wild Bill unload his?

gopguy
June 9, 2006, 12:23 PM
In the 18-21 range (I just turnd 18, YAY!), can we carry them actually on our person or just in our vehicle?

Don't get too excited just yet. Depends on your state laws. I am in Ohio and carrying black powder is handled like carrying any other handgun if it is capped. Another poster earlier was talking about Texas....

You need to check out the laws of Missouri. Look here.

http://www.packing.org/state/missouri/

pohill
June 9, 2006, 12:28 PM
"And how on earth did Wild Bill unload his?"
Simple - he fired them off. Practice does make better...
Self defense is a tricky issue. I have a Class A Permit to Carry in MA, and I rarely carry (got a nice little Ruger Speed Six). The thought of carrying an 1862 .36, or an 1860 .44 etc makes me chuckle. As a former cop, I gotta tell ya, always look ahead to court, with you as a Defendant. "You pulled and fired WHAT kind of weapon? You actually carry a 150 year old weapon for self defense?" As a former self defense instructror, I'd hesitate kicking someone, even in self defense, due to the "shod foot" concept - kick someone with a bare foot, you're OK, kick someone with a shoe on that foot and you're in trouble. Self defense is more than the weapon in your coat - it's a state of mind. Also, it's a last resort. You do what you gotta do so you won't have to pull that hogleg, even if it means running like a scared rabbit. Not a popular concept, but either is jailtime or losing your house in a civil action. You can be right and still be in the wrong.

mainmech48
June 9, 2006, 12:47 PM
Mostly agree with gopguy. As for the "18-to-21" argument: just because you can buy one through the mail since it isn't subject to the same Federal restrictions as more modern firearms doesn't mean that your state or municipality doesn't classify it as a "deadly weapon". If you're thinking that you could carry one on your person or in a vehicle with even a little impunity-think again.

As for home or personal defense, I'd refer you to Clint Smith's work. Handguns are seldom the "best" choice for those purposes, though they are likely to be the most convenient (or even the only) option in many circumstances. As even the 'best' modern cartridges and handguns often fail at the task of putting an immediate end to an assault, do you really want to handicap yourself even further by betting the well-being of your Personal Favorite Behind on something with much less in the way of reliability and energy?

In most jurisdictions you can legally buy and own a longarm, rifle or shotgun, at 18. For anything other than concealed carry, you'll be much better served by either in defense of your life and home. Buy a C&B revolver for fun and recreation; don't bet your life on one.

Carl N. Brown
June 9, 2006, 12:49 PM
how on earth did Wild Bill unload his?

the version I have heard is that he would shoot each gun
in target practice, clean it, and reload it fresh. (Never
being without one gun fully loaded at any time).

now, whether he did that every day or once a week or
whenever he felt like it needed be done, depends on who
tells the story. but he fired his weapons regularly and
was always carrying fresh, reliable loads.

RyanM
June 9, 2006, 03:47 PM
I think Missouri is the state that accepts all other states' permits, and has an age requirement on their own of 23 years? Just get a Maine or North Dakota permit, and buy a regular handgun from someone in state.

gopguy
June 9, 2006, 04:13 PM
I think Missouri is the state that accepts all other states' permits


Actually there are lots of states Missouri does not recognize. Here is the reciprocity map for Missouri.

http://www.packing.org/state/missouri/image.php?stateimage=136

RyanM
June 9, 2006, 04:58 PM
Uhhhh. Those are the states which recognize MO's permit, not the states whose permit MO honors.

http://www.packing.org/state/missouri/

I count 44 states there, which MO honors.

Cosmoline
June 9, 2006, 05:16 PM
The thought of carrying an 1862 .36, or an 1860 .44 etc makes me chuckle. As a former cop, I gotta tell ya, always look ahead to court, with you as a Defendant. "You pulled and fired WHAT kind of weapon? You actually carry a 150 year old weapon for self defense?"

They've been working well for 150 years, so why not carry one? There are no legal implications different from carrying a modern semi. None whatsoever. I can see reliability as an issue, but if you've got a hog leg that works all the time and you want to use it, use it.

pohill
June 9, 2006, 06:09 PM
"There are no legal implications different from carrying a modern semi. None whatsoever..."
Unless you do not have a permit/license to carry.

My reply was mostly directed at the 18 -21 yr olds who suddenly want to carry a BP revolver for self defense because they can't get a permit for a modern firearm, with the thinking that a concealed BP revolver doesn't fit into the concealed weapon category. Well, it does. Want to carry a BP revolver for self defense? Knock yourself out. Ask an opinion, you'll get it. I have an 18 yr old son with more sense than to go running around with a BP revolver for "defense."

Cosmoline
June 9, 2006, 06:15 PM
I see your point. That's certainly true--it's may be a WEAPON under state law even if it it isn't a firearm under the NFA.

pohill
June 9, 2006, 06:23 PM
This whole permit thing drives me crazy, mostly because I live in MA. My son has a Henry .22 and a .50 caliber Hawkins (he has to shoot with me), but he couldnt buy a rubber band for a sling shot at Walmart until he turned 18. I worry more about teens in car accidents than shooting accidents. I just would hate to see someone buy a BP revolver thinking that it didnt fall into a firearms category when it actually does. I remember 18...

Steve499
June 9, 2006, 06:29 PM
Missouri recognizes all concealed carry permits issued by other states. The only problem is that a Vermont resident, who needs none while at home, will have no permit to allow concealed carry in Missouri.

No permit is needed to carry concealed in a vehicle.

My daughter carries a 1960s vintage, brass framed Italian replica of an 1851 navy, except in .44, in her car. The old gun isn't worth much if it gets stolen but still is capable of being used effectively for self defense.

Steve

RyanM
June 9, 2006, 07:31 PM
If you live in Vermont, you have the option of having your county sheriff write a letter saying you're of good character, which will allow you to get a non-resident New Hampshire permit for $20. That'll let you carry in MO, and many other states, very easily.

pohill
June 9, 2006, 09:00 PM
I live in MA, have a MA permit and a NH permit. MA doesn't recognize the NH permit, and I'm not sure if NH recognizes the MA permit. But I buy all my BP guns and supplies in ME without a permit, but ME won't sell me any modern firearms. Then you got the mayor of Boston blaming all of Boston's gun problems on NH. Is Alaska still wild and wooly and free?

Low Key
June 10, 2006, 08:39 AM
I've been watching this thread for a couple of days and I see some interesting thoughts from both sides of the question. A big point to remember for anyone who does not have a CCW permit to remember is that these are weapons and though laws vary from state to state, if you get stopped by a LEO for whatever reason and you have one of these concealed on you--it will be considered a firearm at the time and you'll have more trouble than you know what to do with. If you do have a permit and want to carry a bp revolver, I don't see any reason why not--just make sure that the one you carry is reliable and that you are intimately familiar with its operation so that under stress you won't have to think about the mechanics.

I've seen a lot of opinions about the power of a bp revolver to stop an attacker and I've done some reading about "stopping power" of various firearms. There's endless debate about which caliber is better and one shot stoppers, kinetic energy dumping, velocity and all manner of such. My opinion is that each situation is unique and some people will stop and fall down if you yell "BANG!!" loud enough and others won't stop if you entirely remove their head with the first shot. I read an account of a BG who had fired shots at officers and was on the run trying to escape. He was shot with a shotgun slug that passed through the seat of the vehicle he was in, then through his chest leaving a 1 inch diameter hole all the way through showing daylight and he continued to run and shoot at officers for several seconds before he layed down and died from blood loss.

I see a lot of stories in American Rifleman about people who have stopped intruders in their homes with .22 caliber weapons, (rifles and pistols), sometimes it kills the intruder and sometimes not. I'm of the opinion that you should carry what you are most confident with that still fits your situation. If you are confident with your weapon, you'll be more likely to hit your target where it counts. Just my 2 cents, carry what you are comfortable with for your situation.

Low Key
June 10, 2006, 08:48 AM
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=182435

Here's a thread where some ballistic info is dicussed in more detail. Unfortunately the link to the article I mentioned about the bg with the shotgun slug hole through his chest no longer works. :( That article had some really good info about ballistics in general where one could make useful inferences to bp weapons.

gopguy
June 10, 2006, 11:47 AM
RyanI think Missouri is the state that accepts all other states' permits and then Uhhhh. Those are the states which recognize MO's permit, not the states whose permit MO honors.

http://www.packing.org/state/missouri/

I count 44 states there, which MO honors.There are more than 44 states.....;) In fact 50 last time I looked.

RyanM
June 10, 2006, 01:48 PM
Yes, but a few states don't issue permits for MO to recognize. Vermont. Kansas. Nebraska. Wisconsin. Illinois. Hm. What's the 6th then?

gopguy
June 10, 2006, 02:24 PM
Yes, but a few states don't issue permits for MO to recognize. Vermont. Kansas. Nebraska. Wisconsin. Illinois. Hm. What's the 6th then?

Here is a hint....you have to swim to it. lol:evil:

MCgunner
June 10, 2006, 02:57 PM
Really now folks CCW is for protecting your life. I understand the argument about being between the ages of 18 and 21, but unless you are prohibited from having a modern handgun I am afraid you are taking a terrible chance by relying on obsolete technology. Heck, if you have to draw that thing and the bad guy knows much about guns and sees you pull a Colt 1862 pocket Navy or a huge Ruger old Army he may not take you serious......

I doubt there's a crack head in da hood that's ever seen an 1862 Colt OR a Ruger old army. He stares down that .45 caliber barrel and sees the balls in the cylinder, I think he'll know what's going on. ROFL! However, I quite agree about not relying on antique technology, one reason I don't carry a 1911...:neener: ...but I wouldn't mess with a man with a .44 caliber cap-n-ball cause I'd figure he might just know how to use it if he's THAT into it. :D

I don't think the gun and the mods RyanM is talking about qualifies, exactly, either. Heck, I can see advantages there and might try that sometime myself if I can get to where I can afford to try it. You're talkin' about a TINY gun for which there's no comparison in concealability that will produce probably at LEAST the power of a .32 with a simple conical or round ball in .22 caliber. Call it a "watch pocket gun", whatever. I carry my little NAA .22 everywhere just because it's so danged convenient and it does have uses, like a good jack knife, around the place. I've sent feral animals to their grave with it, filled the frying pan with rabbit meat with it, and shot a few snakes with it when it was the only suitable firearm at hand and the ranges weren't too excessive. I even shot a possum with it that had invaded my kitchen once. That one was worth the price of admission just to watch the wife going nutso. ROFL! "AAAAAAAAAH, IT'S A HUGE RAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" I didn't have the nerve to grab it by the tail and chase her with it, really prefer keeping my marriage. :D RyanM's idea would give you in excess of .22 mag effectiveness in a similar size gun that has one quick reload. That's a pretty good idea I think, cartridge or not.

I've got a .31 Remmie. I'd hate to have to carry that for self defense. It's not exactly a Gold Cup National Match for accuracy. :rolleyes: I plan to get a 5 1/2 inch Remmie that might be applicable. It's a lot lighter and probably more compact than that same barrel length Ruger and plenty for defense. I won't likely carry it, of course, got far better cartridge options for that. If I got that little NAA, though, it WOULD replace my current NAA .22. I'm interested in hearing the range reports on THAT one, very practical idea, there and makes for a danged sight better back up than a .22 long rifle mini if it pans out.

Naphtali
June 13, 2006, 01:43 PM
Perhaps 15 years ago in the American Rifleman's "Armed Citizen" section, there was a report of an elderly man who was walking his dog. He had a reproduction Colt M1851 in his belt -- dunno why. He was accosted by a knife-wielding would-be robber.

Local prosecuting attorney filed no charges against the elderly man. Robber lived.

RyanM
June 13, 2006, 03:48 PM
Hawaii issues a permit, and is listed on the Packing.org list. I guess I could swim to Michigan since I'm in PA, but they're listed too.

--------------

I even shot a possum with it that had invaded my kitchen once. That one was worth the price of admission just to watch the wife going nutso. ROFL! "AAAAAAAAAH, IT'S A HUGE RAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" I didn't have the nerve to grab it by the tail and chase her with it, really prefer keeping my marriage.

Bwa ha ha ha ha haaa! I woulda paid money to have seen that.

Burt Blade
June 13, 2006, 09:44 PM
The typical "big bore" cap and ball revolver delivers a ~148gr pure lead .454 caliber round ball at ~850fps.

Not exactly "major", but nothing at which to sneer.

DutchmanDick
September 3, 2006, 04:43 AM
The quote in post #25 is from "Roughing It".

DutchmanDick
September 3, 2006, 05:10 AM
Some things of interest to note in Michigan. First, the firearms laws were recently changed so that blackpowder handguns are no longer considered "firearms", and therefore no purchase permit or "safety inspection" (read: registration) is required.

Also, the governor recently signed into law a package of bills known collectively as the "castle doctrine". In a nutshell, the Michigan castle doctrine says that:

1) If you are anywhere you have any legal business being, you are under no duty to retreat if you are threatened. Doesn't matter if it's your own home, a friend's house, or in the Wal-Mart parking lot.

2) If you DO have to use lethal (or less-than-lethal) force in a justifiable defensive situation, you are immune from civil liability, and...

3) If some whiny, liberal scumbag tries to sue you because you plugged him (or his precious crack-addicted little boy who only wanted to kill you for your wallet to feed his harmless little habit) in self-defense, the court will automatically award all court and lawyers fees to you, the defendant.

BTW, I have an old cheap mule-eared sidelever Belgian double-barrel shotgun from 1892 or earlier (according to the proofs). Not a "damascus" gun (it says "steel barrels" on the top rib), so I'm not too worried about the barrel bursting as long as I don't use smokeless. Anybody have any recommendations for defensive loads in 12-gauge 2-3/4" brass shotshells? I have a .312 roundball mold that would cast decent "buckshot" (or even a .375 mold that would cast shot slightly larger than 000 buck). Loading data for "punkin balls" would also be appreciated (the gun is a cylinder bore so I'm not too concerned about shooting solid balls in it). A roundball, due to its ballistic inefficiency, tends to dump all of its energy inside the target NOW, and has stopping power all out of proportion to its paper ballistics. Could I use Triple Se7en safely or is that just a bit TOO hot for an antique gun? Also, the barrels are 30" long. The gun has little if any collector value. Should I have the barrels professionally cut down to a more manageable 20", or retain the length for better power (blackpowder relies on barrel length for power more than smokeless does)? Keep in mind I'd like this to be a multipurpose gun, possibly using it for hunting feathered and furred game as well as managing 2-legged predators.

mec
September 3, 2006, 11:11 AM
Twains references to the pepper box which he called an Allen's revolver were in "Roughing It." He called it a cheerful weapon because it would either fail to fire altoghther or set of all of the barrels witha "rattling crash." Whoever developed the character " Monk" (pre-festus Ken Curtis) for Have Gun Will Travel, lifted twain's pepperbox discussion whenever monk used his pepperbox.

Here is the definition of a fire arm in Texas Penal Code 46.01

made, or adapted for delivery or shooting an explosive weapon.
(3) "Firearm" means any device designed, made, or adapted to
expel a projectile through a barrel by using the energy generated by an
explosion or burning substance or any device readily convertible to
that use. Firearm does not include a firearm that may have, as an integral
part, a folding knife blade or other characteristics of weapons
made illegal by this chapter and that is:
(A) an antique or curio firearm manufactured before 1899; or
(B) a replica of an antique or curio firearm manufactured before
1899, but only if the replica does not use rim fire or center fire ammunition.

Non cartridge pre 1898 guns are not considered firearms> neither are replicas of those guns. Cartridge arms are considered firearms regardless of vintage.

The definition of Handgun under texas law starts out (sic)" A Firearm that..."

So, techinically the percussion revolvers and replicas fall outside texas law. A lawyer might be able to make that point for you at some point in the process.

parmamoon
September 3, 2006, 08:33 PM
First, the firearms laws were recently changed so that blackpowder handguns are no longer considered "firearms", and therefore no purchase permit or "safety inspection" (read: registration) is required.

Technically, MI law was amended to classify certain firearms as "antique firearms", but they are still very much considered firearms under current MI law.

I'm not trying to nit-pick but we wouldn't want any unsuspecting Michiganians or our guests to mistakenly think that they can stuff one of these things in their pocket and be immune to persecution.

One further note: MI law does not consider an antique handgun to be unloaded simple by removing the caps as it does with M.L. longarms.
So travelers beware! Handguns must be " unloaded in both barrel and magazine" and transported in the trunk of your vehicle, or enclosed in a case designed for the storage of a firearm and inaccessable to the occupants of the vehicle.

DutchmanDick
September 3, 2006, 09:21 PM
I stand corrected. You still do not need a purchase permit to buy one anymore, though, nor do you have to register it.

I'm curious about the "unloaded" definition, though. When I took hunter's safety (some time in the previous century:rolleyes: ), they told us that a muzzle-loader was considered unloaded for transportation purposes if the priming was removed (from a flintlock) or the cap was removed (from a percussion gun), even if there was a charge in the barrel. This was in the days before 209 primer-ignited blackpowder guns. Has this changed, then? (They never differentiated between handguns & longarms.)

BTW, the first gun I carried after getting my CCW was an antique - a circa 1892-1896 Hopkins & Allen XL double-action in ".32 Calibre Center Fire" (it was loaded with .32 S&W shorts). Didn't have anything better at the time, though that changed as soon as I could afford something more modern.

Timthinker
September 3, 2006, 09:57 PM
Guys,


Caplock revolvers are great fun to shoot, but they have serious drawbacks as a primary self-defense weapons as gopguy discussed. Sure, large caliber caplock revolvers can drop an attacker as quickly as many modern handguns, but they are handicapped by their ignition systems as well as their single- action firing modes. That said, they are a hoot to shoot.

Since this is my first posting on this forum, I would like to say how much I enjoy this section on blackpowder firearms. Why? It brings back pleasant memories of shooting blackpowder firearms with some of my family members who have now passed on. So, thanks for stirring up some good memories.


Timthinker

parmamoon
September 4, 2006, 12:33 AM
DutchmanDick,

I don't know when they changed the law, seems like every ten minutes or so, but here's the link http://www.mi.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10366_37141_37706-31579--,00.html

Tom Bri
September 4, 2006, 02:23 AM
Fun discussion. The original post talked about blackpowder, but didn't specify what kind of gun you were using. I have shot .45 auto with no ill effects out of my m1911, using pyrodex. Worked great and made a very satisfying cone of fire and cloud of smoke. I fired about 50 rounds with no failures or problems. I suppose eventually it would have clogged up to the point of failing to operate, but I doubt many self defense shootings go beyond a mag or two at most.

I have seen pics of modern revolvers, .38 specials and .44 mags fired using black powder loads. Fun stuff. No real reason to carry that way, but it works. And if the bad guy is close enough you have the added fun of lighting his shirt on fire.

The only drawback with the m1911 was clean-up afterwards. I had to take it all to bits and really CLEAN it! Black crud everywhere.

If Illinois had some exceptin for BP guns I would probably try it. But I doubt we do. Anyone know about BP and the law in IL?

DutchmanDick
September 4, 2006, 05:01 AM
I was just checking that out last night, in fact, since I haven't lived in Illinois since 1993 (my dad was stationed at NTC Great Lakes and retired that year), and would like to take my wife to see the museums in Chicago some time in the next few years. They've changed the laws since then, for sure. 13 years ago, I didn't need an FOID to buy a blackpowder gun, though you did need one for caps, balls, and powder (classified as "reloading components"). Now, you DO need an FOID for blackpowder guns. The only exception seems to be for genuine, bona-fide antiques. Here's a website: www.isp.state.il.us/foid/firearmsfaq.cfm

Thank goodness I live in a gun-and-ccw-friendly state now!

lwrnc1963
September 7, 2006, 02:00 AM
Human beings haven't changed any in the last 100 years so a gun that was deadly a 100 years ago should be just as deadly today. Yes cap and ball is less reliable when it comes to ignition but a blackpowder cartridge gun is as reliable as one loaded with smokeless. I occasionally carry my MKII Webley on my ccw loaded with mild modern 45 auto-rim loads but I wouldn't feel less armed with some loaded with FFFG or Pyrodex. In fact I've been thinking about loading some with Pyrodex P and some Hornady 255gr. lead cowboy bullets so as to have a load closer to the original .455 rounds to plink with. It seems to me they'd be just as reliable for defense as any modern ammo-gun combo.

1911 guy
September 7, 2006, 04:58 PM
When I was a kid, about 14 or so, we were having a little trouble around so my Grandpa gave me an old Colt 44-40 to carry. BP loads only, he insisted. That's all I shoot in it even today, when I do shoot it. Not very often anymore. It's about the only revolver I've found that fits my hand. Nice shaped bird's head grips. Barel is about four inches.

scrat
September 28, 2008, 02:44 AM
OMG read the first post. this has got to be the funniest post i have ever read

Tomahawk674
September 28, 2008, 03:37 AM
I don't know about CCW or home defense, but at the range I'm more accurate with my BP revolver than with any semi auto I've tried. I'm assuming it's a combination of a long barrel and lack of recoil.

So if I ever needed to defend myself from some cans and water bottles, I know what I'd be shooting... ;)

wulf
September 28, 2008, 04:32 AM
It is .41 rimfire and not very powerful but it is the only thing I will risk carrying in my coat pocket. I actually had to pull it once when some begger kept trying to separate me from my kids 2 and 6.

Diamondback6
September 28, 2008, 05:10 AM
Y'know, I just had an idea... there any way to safely run blackpowder (or any other kind of "non-smokeless" powder) in an autoloader without gumming it up? I'm thinking it'd be helpful if my 1911 could lay down a smokescreen as it's fired...

Voodoochile
September 28, 2008, 07:26 AM
I've posted before that I sometimes will open carry one of my replica '58's on the hunt club or my back yard checking traps, scouting, or what not instead of my M1911A1 & I still keep one or two ready for action here at the home for H.D. purposes.

Out in the Field I may switch to a cylinder loaded with conicals for that extra punch on the 4 legged creatures but for H.D. I like the .457 Ball.
As many here know, a Ball can inflict a very deadly wound but it also looses it's energy very quickly when it strikes a target & my thinking is this:

Say 02:00 B.G. enters home & I did by chance grab one of my C&B Revolvers & did have to use it, if I missed a shot or if it did penetrate completely that ball would likely strike a wall that my child is behind in their bed & being that a ball looses it's energy quickly the likely hood of my child sharing that projectile is diminished "mind you not completely but better odds than my 230gr. JHP or Ball load from my .45ACP."

I've learned from years of experience that I can load these weapons to be just as weather resistent as any other cartridge firearm out there to where while out in the field if by chance I did get caught in rain or what not the cylinder that is in revolver will reliably fire it's 5 chambers.

To the question of loading a .45ACP up with Black Powder or Pyrodex:
You can do it but I would only do that as a joke at the range for a friend because it can gum up the works quite quickly & if not loaded with sufficient ammount of powder may not reliably work the action with enough force to eject the spent round & reload a fresh one depending on how stiff the recoil spring is on the paticular piece.

PRM
September 28, 2008, 08:35 AM
I've been carrying Second Generation Colt Pocket Models since the early 80s. I have a Pocket Police and a Pocket Navy. They go to the range on a regular basis and rarely give problems. A good percentage of the time when I leave home, one of them goes with me. I've got modern firearms and modern single actions also - it just depends on what I am doing and what I feel like that day. A few years ago I sent them to Colt Black Powder Arms when they were up and running and had them refinished. Today they are both tricked out in pre-ban ivory. Just a personal choice - not for everyone. Happy shooting:)

FSCJedi
September 28, 2008, 08:48 AM
Can we get a pic of those, PRM? I'm particularly interested in your Pocket Navy.

PRM
September 28, 2008, 04:32 PM
The 1862 Pocket Police was shortened, and had a smaller Army style front sight added. My wife also had my name engraved on the back strap as a Christmas present the year I had the work done.

The 1862 Pocket Navy is still in its original configuration.

Both have had pre-ban elephant ivory grips made for them by Jerry Meacham.

scrat
September 29, 2008, 04:50 AM
oh wow prm that is so nice

FSCJedi
September 29, 2008, 05:33 AM
Wow! Actual ivory on actual Colts, complete with silver grip straps... beautiful! Thanks for the pics!

PRM
September 29, 2008, 08:51 AM
Nothing like Ivory - several years ago I pretty much quit buying new guns (already had what I wanted). In fact I sold some of my guns that had become safe queens. Kept the ones I use and shoot. That freed up some cash and I started slowly tricking a few out with pre-ban ivory. Jerry Meacham has done several guns for me (all single actions) and in my opinion he is one of the best at his craft. Very reasonable too.

The 1851 was my first BP Colt (2nd Gen)/grips by Jerry Meacham
The Bisley was custom built (parts gun) by Dave Chicoine www.oldwestgunsmith.com /grips by Jerry Meacham
The Cimarron Lightning had some custom work by Dave Chicoine/grips by Jerry Meacham

Jerry can be reached at: (704) 485-3374
or
(704) 578-3585 cell

mike6975
September 29, 2008, 09:36 AM
no one likes this idea?,a 2-3" pistol w/a converesion cylinder for there ccw gun.if one is used to carrying a bp weapon this would be perfect with no need for changing mindset for a modern handgun.my 2cents worth.


Respectfully


mike

PRM
September 29, 2008, 09:46 AM
mike6975 that is a neat looking custom outfit. How accurate is it? I have been seeing a lot of posts the conversion cylinders, they definitely put a different perspective on C&B revolvers.

mike6975
September 29, 2008, 11:17 AM
these aren't mine PRM others post these,i'm currently finishing mine,and have put alot of time and effort into it.it's nice to be able to shoot bp all then switch over to cartridge when you go out at night with the family,and not have to worry about if it's goin to fire or not.


Respectfully,

mike

PRM
September 29, 2008, 11:32 AM
I am a little more traditional with my C&B. When I want a cartridge gun, I will pick one of my other single actions or "other" dependent on what I'm doing. But, I can really see where if you were going to own and use one gun it would have its benefits. It is a great option for the new shooter who wants the best of both.

FSCJedi
September 30, 2008, 07:13 AM
PRM, you are NOT allowed to make me start wanting to find some ivory for my Navy! I can't afford it! So stop it this instant!

weaponhead
October 1, 2008, 09:32 AM
Mike - I really like your rig! How do you load C&B w/o the rammer and retain the cylinder pin? I would like to have that done as well! :D

sundance44s
October 1, 2008, 10:18 AM
Conseal carry..... and black powder ...Don`t do it ......If your conserned enought to get a cc permit ..buy a good modern revolver , thats easy to conseal ...These black powder revolvers are a good way to keep your revolver shooting skills sharp , but when it comes to self preservation and protecting ones family ...I have to draw a line ..I don`t want any guess work when I have to produce a wepon for self defence ...I don`t carry auto loaders because of the possibility of a one shot then a stove pipe ruining my day ...what can happen will happen .

6Gun4Fun
October 1, 2008, 10:48 AM
I carry a S&W M&P 9mm that has no safety to speak of, I just don't chamber a round until it's called for. The M&P is the best shooting auto I've laid my hands on.

sundance44s
October 1, 2008, 11:16 AM
6gun4fun ...don`t blame ya a bit to carry one you feel most faith in ...like you I don`t and won`t carry a pistol with a round in the chamber ...With a revolver I can keep the hammer down on an empty chamber ..yet when the need arises I can bring it into battery with one hand ...My choice of bullet is the 45 LC ..I`ve only got five shots ...but feel if even one shot from that big slug doesn`t end a fight ...I`m not too sure 16 rounds would eaither ....it is a good feeling to know the pistol of choice inside and out ..and limitations ..for CC.
Thinking about our brothers in the UK and other places that have lost their rights to have cartridge pistols ...well ...lets not ever let that happen to us ..but if I lived there , I would feel safe useing a cap and ball revolver for self defence ...beats a bat ..every time .

Elbert P . Suggins
October 1, 2008, 01:42 PM
I've watched this thread for a long time and thought I would like to add my 2 cents. If you don't have much money and the only thing you own is a cap and ball to protect you and your family than it sure beats a baseball bat, kitchen knife or waiting for the cops to show up. But other than that I think its nuts if you have other choices. We have all had misfires, hangfires, and times when the thing wouldn't do nothing. When your life and your loved ones is on the line it is time to rethink it. I agree with the last poster about semiautos and the chance of a feed problem. I have had an Idaho CCW for 11 years now and have always carried the same weapon and at last count I own 17 handguns. And my weapon of choice of carry to be with me all the time is a 5 shot S&W 640 Stainless 357 magnum in a custom made paddle holster which keeps everything out of sight and out of mind. I shoot it all the time and I know it will fire every time and if it takes more than 5 rounds I will throw up the white flag or call the National Guard. I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

theotherwaldo
October 1, 2008, 01:51 PM
On the only occasion that I had to use lethal force to defend self and family, the only weapon that was at hand was a '58 Remington. It did the job at the time, although it certainly wouldn't be my first choice.

-And I definitely wouldn't want to try to carry it concealed!

Voodoochile
October 1, 2008, 06:41 PM
Sundance:
I understand your concern with defending oneself & family with one of these types of firearms especially when a more modern weapon like my Colt M1911A1 .45ACP is readily available & possibly more reliable but to me as a secondary weapon they do just fine for the Home Defense role or maybe taking care of a Yote out on the Club when open carry but as far as Concealed carry, I'm not sure I would want to try that.

Tomahawk674
October 1, 2008, 08:58 PM
TheotherWaldo, do you mind if I ask you to narrate your story? if you'd rather not I understand.

theotherwaldo
October 1, 2008, 10:06 PM
The story of my getting the gun is here (http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=4968932&postcount=19). I had gone from Oregon to Huntington Park (a suburb of Los Angeles), California to stay with my grandparents while I finished high school.

The house that I had found for them was perhaps not the best, but the price was right - $17,500.00. The main problem was that it had been the headquarters of a local gang. The neighborhood improved measurably when we bought the house - but I guess not everyone got the word that the place had changed hands.

Anyway, come Christmas Eve my three little girl cousins came to stay the night with grandma and grandpa. I was evicted from the spare bedroom and settled on the couch. A few hours later, their dad came rolling in, drunk as usual. He got the couch and I dossed out under the dining room table.

A few hours earlier I had presented myself with my Christmas present, a Navy Arms '58 Remington that I had actually had for over a year. To make the event official, I loaded and capped the gun and propped it up in the china cabinet as a display.

Sometime after midnight something woke me up. I figured it was my uncle, tossing his cookies, but I rolled over and looked into the kitchen.

Someone was coming in the back door! Automatically, I thought of the shotgun, but it was in the bedroom, clear across the house. Then I remembered the Remington. I rolled over to the china cabinet, popped the door open, grabbed the gun, and rolled back.

I guess he heard me, as he had stopped in the doorway. I was about to yell at him to get out of the house when he reached into the dish drain and pulled out grandpa's huge butcher knife.

That was enough for me! I thumbed back the hammer, lined up on the guy's silhouette as well as I could, and pulled the trigger.
FLASH!! I was blinded and half-deaf! I knew that I had hit him, because the flame and sparks from the muzzle hit him high on the chest - but that was all that I saw for a while. On the other hand, I could hear at least three people yelling and screaming in Spanish. Unacceptable. I lined up on what I thought was someone in the doorway and fired again. More screaming and yelling, but it was getting farther away. Much better.

I hunkered down and waited. A car peeled out in the alley and took off. I waited some more. Still no vision, just stars and stripes. I hear the cousins whispering, grandpa's gruff, "What's going on out there?" Waited some more.

Grandma turns on her bedroom light, peeks into the living room. My uncle's still passed out. The girls are still whispering.

My vision starts coming back. I ease up out of my blankets and head for the kitchen. Slip and almost fall. Stand still and look around. The floor looks odd. Shiny and blotchy. I step carefully around the dark areas and reach the back door and the light switches. Turn on the lights, close the door. There's blood everywhere! Blobs on the floor, spatters on the counters, walls, - even the ceiling. The girls peek our of the bedroom. The oldest starts throwing up. I reach for the phone, call the local police. A woman answers. I tell her that I had shot an intruder. She asks if the intruder is still there. I say, "No."
She asks if there's a body on the premises. Again, "No."
She says that she'll send a unit as soon as possible.

I never did see a police car that night.

By the way, how do you get blood out of acoustic tile?

Loomis
October 1, 2008, 10:30 PM
Did the cops even show up at all?

theotherwaldo
October 1, 2008, 10:50 PM
Not that I could tell. Then again, the area was a thin line of older, mostly-retired folks between a barrio and the projects. Not a place that a cop wants to go on Christmas Eve.

Tomahawk674
October 1, 2008, 10:58 PM
That is one hell of a story OtherWaldo, I'm glad you and your family were unharmed, but it was probably an experience you would have rather not gone through.

I'm amazed the cops didn't show even when there were shots fired...

Voodoochile
October 1, 2008, 11:06 PM
WOW theotherwaldo, Thank God for your quick reflexes & straight shots, the only thing I've shot with any of my C&B Revolvers "in my home that is" was a invading Raccoon that found a hole in the trailers floor to enter into.

Again Thank God..

theotherwaldo
October 2, 2008, 09:15 PM
-Seemed like I was moving awfully slow at the time!

Thanks for the good wishes!!

-Now back to your previously scheduled thread... .

batjka
October 3, 2008, 06:48 PM
Wow, Theotherwaldo, some story! Glad you weren't hurt. When did this happen?

As far as the police never showing up... I heard that in the 70's the cops were not as concerned about shot intruders as they are now. A guy I knew once was accosted by a black guy in the park trying to rob him at knifepoint. This happened in the 70's in Jersey City or Newark. So the guy I knew (who was a huge white dude, played professional football) wrestled the knife from the robber and stuck him right under the chin, killing him. He then dragged the dead robber to the street and flagged down a police car. The cops heard the story and told him to just throw the body into the bushes and leave, which he did. I guess the cops were different back in a days...

Anyway, the Remington performed admirably as did the owner. Would be interesting to know how that ball performed ballistically. What was the load, if you remember?

theotherwaldo
October 3, 2008, 08:00 PM
It happened around 2am, Christmas morning, 1974. Those guys certainly weren't Santa and his helpers, though.

I can't find the powder measure to check, but I'm pretty sure each spoutfull was about 25 grains of fffg, loaded under .451 store-bought round balls and topped with Crisco. Might have been a hair more powder, but the balls still had plenty of space for the Crisco.

I talked with my great-uncle, a retired LAPD officer, not long after the mess happened. He suggested that a unit probably cruised the street out front, saw nothing, and kept going. No way were they going down that alley!

pohill
October 3, 2008, 08:16 PM
I'm glad it turned out well, but there's alot wrong with that story. Did the cops ever show up? Even the next day? Was a report ever taken or given? If not, did you pursue it? I mean, you shot a guy...

theotherwaldo
October 3, 2008, 08:45 PM
The police never showed up. No report was ever given or taken. I felt that I had done my part, and I wasn't going to go looking for trouble.

At this point I had just lost almost everything I owned except for my ancient Shasta 14' ham-can trailer, I was still recovering from pneumonia after getting snowed in in the Siskiyou mountains during spring vacation, and I was living away from my parents to let some family problems settle down.

Anyway, I was always taught to say as little as possible to the authorities.

stevereno1
October 3, 2008, 09:46 PM
Black powder guns have killed more game, indians, and criminals in this country than any smokeless, centerfire weapons ever will. That being said, Why trust your life to a primative weapon that is about as reliable for serious concealed carry as a rock tied to a stick with fishing line?

PRM
October 3, 2008, 10:10 PM
That being said, Why trust your life to a primative weapon that is about as reliable for serious concealed carry as a rock tied to a stick with fishing line?

Couldn't agree more, I used to own a S&W semi-auto that jammed about every other shot. Traded it real quick. Guess you can get lemons with all makes and models.

Voodoochile
October 3, 2008, 10:41 PM
Black powder guns have killed more game, indians, and criminals in this country than any smokeless, centerfire weapons ever will. That being said, Why trust your life to a primative weapon that is about as reliable for serious concealed carry as a rock tied to a stick with fishing line?

For a every day Concealed Carry Weapon your thoughts have merrit & I agree but my thoughts are this that contradicts your point.

When properly loaded with the right bullet be it a Conical or a Ball & some understanding of how to make the weapon weather resistent "like I do to the ones that I take out open carry to the club & what not" & that the person is proficient with the weapon, the C&B Revolver is quite a reliable firearm & quite potent within a resonable distance.

I've also carried a Knife that was more reliable & potent than some of the firearms that I've seen come accross as a defense weapons.

My point is, I agree that if you have the ability to have a modern firearm of Semi Auto or Revolver design & am legaly able to carry a firearm concealed then your chances are better if you was to use that weapon instead of one that was designed nearly 150 years ago when the time comes to defend oneself but these antique designed revolvers in the right hands can be just as deadly as any other firearm out there & with just a little knowledge can be just as reliable.

mykeal
October 3, 2008, 10:55 PM
Black powder guns have killed more game, indians, and criminals in this country than any smokeless, centerfire weapons ever will. That being said, Why trust your life to a primative weapon that is about as reliable for serious concealed carry as a rock tied to a stick with fishing line?

Lots of hyperbole with no supporting data or references. Kind of appropriate considering the season.

PRM
October 4, 2008, 12:05 AM
I know this guy who hunts wild hogs with a spear. Has a ball doing it. He's a grown man and that's his choice. I'd be more inclined to use one of those "primitive unreliable" Walkers. But then, that's just me. Most of my C&Bs are pretty functional, might have a problem with a cap on rare occasions. Even then it is never on a first shot. I have read where some people have got bad caps. I can't really say that either. Probably had fewer bad caps than hard or high primers on my center fires. Also, never had a problem with powder. In the 30+ years I have been shooting Black Powder - its been an extremely pleasant experience. Although, I own some modern firearms - I have never felt at a disadvantage stopping at the Sonic drive in for a burger and fries with just a C&B. Guess its an individual thang.

trickshot
October 4, 2008, 12:57 AM
The only reason I don't carry a C&B revolver for self defense is because I can't see through a thick cloud of smoke. Around here there are many days with humidity and little wind, so that after the first shot I have to wait a long while for the smoke to clear before I can see anything in front of me. I have a lot of respect and admiration for those men who were expert at using black powder revolvers in gunfights.

Voodoochile
October 4, 2008, 05:37 AM
The only reason I don't carry a C&B revolver for self defense is because I can't see through a thick cloud of smoke. Around here there are many days with humidity and little wind, so that after the first shot I have to wait a long while for the smoke to clear before I can see anything in front of me. I have a lot of respect and admiration for those men who were expert at using black powder revolvers in gunfights.


That cloud of smoke can also come as an advantage to the shooter though, Say BG had a friend & you just shot BG, the smoke can be a cover screen for the shooter to either get a better advantage of securing cover or just simply getting away.

mike101
October 4, 2008, 06:22 AM
This may be good news for some of you guys. I just got the following email from R&D Gun Shop:

"Mike
We are working on them right now and hopefully they will be available
in 30-60 days. We will have you on the top of the list so send us your
phone number and address and we will call when they are up and
running. It sounds like we need a pick up truck full of them.
Thanks for asking
Ken Howell
R&D
608-676-2518"

mike6975
October 4, 2008, 03:23 PM
does anyone know that a 58'remmi and standard 45acp ammo ballistics are virtually identical?,the only advantage to a 45acp is the ease of readiness and compactness,but those that use c&b only would probably be just as prepared as the 45acp.


mike:evil:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------

colt model 1860 army 44 cal. 8" barrel)
37 grain load/138gr.=.451rb bulllet/1030fps@325ft.lbs


(magtech cowboy load) cartridge
45 lng. colt 250grn. bullet 761fps@323ft.lbs

(ultramax cowboy ammo)
45 lng. colt 250grn. bullet 750fps@300ft.lbs

(colt walker 9" barrel)
50 grain load/141gr.=.454rb bulllet/1200fps@450ft.lbs!!!!!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
modern gun ballistics


(wolf gold line ammo)
45 lng. colt 185grn. bullet 935fps@355ft.lbs


(cci blazer ammo)
45 lng. colt 230grn. bullet 830fps@352ft.lbs

(winchester pistol usa ammo)
45 lng. colt 230grn. bullet 835fps@356ft.lbs

(remington handgun ammo)
45 lng. colt 230grn. bullet 835fps@356ft.lbs

(hornady ammo)
45 lng. colt 230grn. bullet 850fps@369ft.lbsthe first.

shooting on a shoestring
January 25, 2009, 10:47 AM
In my college years I kept a .36 Remington copy as a bedside gun. It was in a less than secure room where there was a chance I'd lose the gun while I was in class or otherwise gone, so I didn't want to risk my only other good revovler, a slick M-19. The .36 pointed well for me, good for low/no light, and I'd shot it for several years w/o problems (grew up shooting black powder rifles, revolvers and shotguns). It served fine in that role.

An aquaintance of mine did have a problem with one. He raised chickens for eggs/fried chicken, took it serious due to his financial condition. He had a good .32 Blackhawk, but also had a .36 C&B. One night he heard a comotion in the chicken house. He didn't want to shoot the .32 Blackhawk b/c of the cost for the shells, so he hastily loaded one chamber of the .36 C&B, went into the chicken house and confronted a skunk which was in the back of the chicken house. He manuvered to get the shot, killed the skunk, and discovered the skunk's companion had him cornered in his own chicken house w/o a second shot. He re-thought his position on the cost of .32 H&R shells.

Voodoochile
January 25, 2009, 11:28 AM
In my college years I kept a .36 Remington copy as a bedside gun. It was in a less than secure room where there was a chance I'd lose the gun while I was in class or otherwise gone, so I didn't want to risk my only other good revovler, a slick M-19. The .36 pointed well for me, good for low/no light, and I'd shot it for several years w/o problems (grew up shooting black powder rifles, revolvers and shotguns). It served fine in that role.

An aquaintance of mine did have a problem with one. He raised chickens for eggs/fried chicken, took it serious due to his financial condition. He had a good .32 Blackhawk, but also had a .36 C&B. One night he heard a comotion in the chicken house. He didn't want to shoot the .32 Blackhawk b/c of the cost for the shells, so he hastily loaded one chamber of the .36 C&B, went into the chicken house and confronted a skunk which was in the back of the chicken house. He manuvered to get the shot, killed the skunk, and discovered the skunk's companion had him cornered in his own chicken house w/o a second shot. He re-thought his position on the cost of .32 H&R shells.

If your friend had loaded more than 1 shot in his revolver he wouldn't have had that sick feeling.

Although I have a few .45 Auto pistols & my grand fathers .44-40 Colt I still keep at least 1 C&B revolver loaded w/ 5 chambers of either a .457 142gr. Ball or a .456 220gr. Conical for one reason or another & wouldn't hessitate nor feel undergunned if it was the weapon that got to my hand first.

mike6975
January 25, 2009, 07:12 PM
you shouldn't my friend and my post above your "the modern versus bp loads" should prove that to anyone listening with there eyes and ears open.


Respectfully,

mike

Smokin_Gun
January 26, 2009, 04:16 AM
Here! Here!
Good ballistics comparison report Mike...and Shoestring i liked the story.

SG

DoubleDeuce 1
January 26, 2009, 08:39 PM
The story about shooting someone with the 1858 Remington seems a little troubling. I find it extremely hard to believe the police never showed up following a shooting, of any sort. With all of the blood on the walls etc as described, there should have been something more. I find it extremely hard to believe that two shots from a blackpowder revolver would leave that kind of trail behind and no body to account for it.
The smoke alone would obscure your sight for a quick second, well aimed follow up shot. Shooting blackpowder indoors because of the smoke presents a whole other set of difficulties. Hearing other voices and then shooting at or toward the voices is another real stretch and hard to justify. Being blinded by the muzzle flash and loosing your hearing I can understand. Generally you lose your night vision for several seconds if that is the case. Shooting nearly deaf and blind at a possible second target does not seem to be the prudent thing to do, strange voices or not.
I find the whole episode very hard to swallow. I speak from experience.

Pulp
January 26, 2009, 11:21 PM
This has been some good reading. A few years back my '60 was the most reliable firearm I had, so that was my home defense gun. I also had a .22 Colt Woodsman, but it would jam pretty regular. It's since outgrown that habit. Fortunately, neither were ever needed.

But the one question that keeps buggin' me is, how does one carry something like a '60 concealed? I have trouble with a .38Spl Smith and Wesson with a 2 inch barrel.

Considering reliablity, I shoot percussion revolvers at Cowboy Action Matches. I've noticed more folks having reliablity problems with cartridges than I do with my percussions.

Gaucho Gringo
January 27, 2009, 02:45 AM
As far as reliability of firing I have had more .22 misfires than my black powder guns through the years.

1.S.1.K
January 27, 2009, 03:28 PM
sorry i just cant read this lol

Donny
January 27, 2009, 04:42 PM
I honestly think that the reliability concerns applied to cap and ball revolvers are over stated. A black powder revolver especially of the Remington design, is every bit as reliable as a modern auto loader. A properly cared for, carefully loaded and appropriately carried cap and ball revolver is every bit as effective as a modern hand gun. If the owner is consciensious about maintaining it than its only disadvantage is reloading speed. When I've done my part my cap and ball revolvers have gone bang every time. I personally would not hesitate to carry a cap and ball revolver for personal defense.

Don

pohill
January 27, 2009, 06:58 PM
Now it's my turn to disagree. There is no way that a cap & ball revolver is as reliable as a modern handgun. Now, I have only one cartridge gun, a Ruger Speed Six in .357/.38 and it has never ever failed to fire. No...wait, I have a little Beretta .22 that is also a great gun. Anyways, I have...let me see...15 or so BP revolvers and the only one that I would trust my life on is a Ruger Old Army. I like BP revolvers much more than a modern handgun but let's be serious...

Smokin_Gun
January 27, 2009, 11:26 PM
I have 6 out of 10 Remington 58's in my safe that I would use to defend my life with the same conviction as I would my Ruger Police Service Six...which I have had since the 1970's.
2 ROA's I'd trust also...that I have recently come to terms with more than acceptance, gotta luv um.
Got 15 Colts 5 of which I'd trust to defend myself with...
Got 2 Reb guns one unfired, one not tested yet. And 1 R&S that I have not tested yet. 1 .22 C&B 5 shot derringer Rev I wouldn't.
The ones I did not say I trusted I have not gone thru to meet my QA for trust. Loaded properly(for myself) I'd trust any of them that said I would, to include my Ruger Police Service Six .357 Mag., a 12ga. Ithica D.S. Police Special, or either Russian SKS...almost forgot my Ruger 10/22 w/ 10 or 25rnd magazine. <<< I trust them too!
Just for me, any gun is only as good as you can make it. Whether you have a gunsmith make it right or do it yourself, a gun is of no use as a protection tool or life jacket if you can't trust it.

SG

Voodoochile
January 28, 2009, 12:15 AM
Well spoken SG, very well spoken.

The weapon "be it a modern cartridge firing type or even a 150 year old designed muzzle loader" is only part of the equasion, if the weapon is in reliable shape like you said the rest is the person that wields it.

theotherwaldo
January 29, 2009, 08:01 PM
The story about shooting someone with the 1858 Remington seems a little troubling.

It troubled me a bit, too, and I was there!

I find it extremely hard to believe that two shots from a blackpowder revolver would leave that kind of trail behind and no body to account for it.

The fella in question had taken two steps into the house. He was still blocking the door, and his buddies had to go over him on the way out to their car. There may have been some dragging involved, although I found very little blood outside the door.

I was upset about the second shot, after I had time to think about it. One of my buddies' girlfriends lived right across the alley! I checked the house and line of garages later, but found no bullet hole. Still, no excuse. That was irresponsible.

The police not showing up was no surprise. This was the kind of neighborhood where kids shot rats in the back yard without any concern about the police showing up. A local gang-banger got shot a block away, and the ambulances came and went long before any police cars showed up.

I found it hard to swallow, too. A mixture of dry-mouth and powder residue, I guess.

DoubleDeuce 1
January 30, 2009, 03:45 AM
This account seems fantastic. What could you have possibly been thinking of when you decided to load and cap a revolver, placing it in the cabinet to display with younger children around? And doing this at night when there is no chance to admonish the children to stay away from the weapon, but intending it to be displayed and possibly admired is insanity, and just asking for trouble.
You state there was blood everywhere including the ceiling tiles, and even describe the thick blood on the floor. That tells me that there was quite possibly a homicide that had taken place in your grandparents' kitchen. That would mean you in a manner of speaking, possibly committed a homicide, justified or not.
If there is a John Doe unsolved homicide from many years ago, say 0200 hrs, Christmas eve 1974, there is still evidence of that shooting/ homicide in your grandparents' kitchen. It will still be there unless the place has been totally gutted and remodeled. Virtually no amount of cleaning except by fire is going to totally remove the evidence.
Evidence for homicides is kept for a period of ninety-nine years from the date of it's recovery. That leaves you with only about sixty-five years to be looking over your shoulder for the boys in blue to come around for a sit down chat. There is no statute of limitation for homicide. That means the case or investigation can go on for just about ever.
Something else to consider is that even if the individual did not die that night during that incident, he has a year to die of his wounds as inflicted by you. And that, still qualifies as a homicide.
You stated you were always told or taught to say the least to authorities/ police. That is a sheer stroke of brilliance. And here you are telling the world world of your adventure. And none of the neighbors called the police... there was no retaliation directed against your grandparents' house, or any of your family members, living in such a terrible place even the police were afraid to go into. What was there to fear for the gang members if they came back and did something to you or your family? Fear of the police?
And what about your "retired uncle" from the police department, was it LAPD? What did he advise you to do, don't co-operate with the authorities? Did he do anything? What about the rest of your family, what did they do? I suppose you just went about your merry way. What ever happened to doing the right thing, and being responsible?
I could go on... It does make for entertaining reading, but I believe you do us all a disservice posting such fantasies, feeding urban myths.
In summary, you claim to have been involved in a shooting, possibly resulting in a death/ homicide. By your own admission, you still retain the weapon used in that shooting, and there is possibly still evidence at your grandparents' house to connect the dots, possibly explaining how John Doe ended up dead. You admit you don't talk to authorities, and here it is for all the world to see. Absofrigginlutely brilliant.
Anybody out there want to go back into the archives and dig out some old cases? Heeeeeere's Suspect #1 ! And the cool thing is you won't even need to have your rights read to you right away, because these are all unsolicited, spontaneous statements. Stunningly solar flare brilliance.
Well Waldo, or is it Walter Mitty, you sure can tell some interesting stories.
Don't forget to keep looking over your shoulder...

Smokin_Gun
January 30, 2009, 10:34 PM
That's a real Brilliant way to make friends and influence people you haven't met yet...
Welcome to the Forum 2x2!

SG

theotherwaldo
January 30, 2009, 11:01 PM
Sorry about feeding the troll, folks.

It won't happen again.

DoubleDeuce 1
January 30, 2009, 11:32 PM
Waldo, I wonder if you understand what you may have opened yourself up to.

SG, I am a pretty straight forward individual. I call it like it is when it comes to certain things.:cool:

ModificationVt
January 30, 2009, 11:54 PM
I don't think I would carry a cap and ball on a daily basis, but I am planing on dressing like a cowboy with my walker loaded on my hip (simply because a 1911 just wouldn't look right) (p.s. I do not drink, so despite being at Halloween parties, I will be sober as a bird)

4v50 Gary
January 31, 2009, 12:10 AM
No response by the police is not at all surprising in a large city that has a high crime rate. Shootings happen all the time. Cops don't care especially when it's a criminal who's shot. Criminals don't report that they've been shot especially when they're engaged in illegal activity like burglary.

Good citizens not saying anything isn't surprising either. We had a bicyclist who was mugged by three latinos. Victim shot one and then ran away, leaving his bicycle behind. Along with his two buddies, the mugger jumped into the car but crashed when he expired. Police apprehended the suspects and from their statements, figured it was self-defense. However, the victim never showed up to give his side of the story. They couldn't trace him by his bicycle either since that was stolen by someone else. Why should the victim come forward and face a potential lawsuit for wrongful death? Not that the survivors will win but there's a huge headache and an out-of-court settlement. Secondly, there's also a possibility of gang retaliation. They'll know exactly who did it as it removes any ambiguity it a house full of people.

Here's another real life case. I know someone who shot two of out four muggers. One died, the other is paralyzed. The shooter, the victim of the armed robbery attempt, was caught by SFPD. The DA tired the shooter for a murder and when that failed, for assault with a deadly weapon. That failed too and the victim was freed. However, he received death threats and is recognized and pointed out in the streets every now and then. Today, he still fears for his life.

pohill
January 31, 2009, 08:15 AM
I questioned that story when I first read it (go back and look), but I quickly decided that it's pure fiction, and not even good fiction (right up there with Manyirons' stories of Da Mann).
If it is a true story, then everything that DoubleDeuce 1 said is true.

Elbert P . Suggins
January 31, 2009, 12:37 PM
I've got a Deputy Sheriff that lives up the road from me that shoots BP and he wanted to read this story. After reading it he took more than just a fanciful interest in this story from South Texas so with the investigative technology they have nowadays he might learn more in a couple of weeks. There is just something not quite right with that story. Kind of like the wife that says she was out all night with the girls and you can smell Aqua Velva!

4v50 Gary
January 31, 2009, 01:10 PM
I should add that while not reporting anything isn't unusual, I wouldn't necessarily say anything if I did anything wrong. The old saying of shoot, shovel, shut-up comes to mind.

theotherwaldo
January 31, 2009, 01:25 PM
I know that I did nothing wrong in the shooting or the reporting. I gave the women on the phone my name and address and the particulars of the situation. If the police don't show up, well, maybe they have something more important to do.

Elbert P . Suggins
February 1, 2009, 04:01 PM
"I know that I did nothing wrong" is your quote TheOtherWaldo. And you said it happened 2am Dec 25, 1974. Can you say which city in south Texas this occurred? Thanks

4v50 Gary
February 1, 2009, 04:30 PM
Guys. Time to close this one and let theotherwaldo's account go to rest. It's straying far too off-topic. Please feel free to start a fresh thread on blackpowder guns for self-defense and CCW.

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