[Black92LX]

Yeah so i was at the local gun shop admiring the Sigs. They had a nice 228 that i was checking out for a quite awhile. (man i really like that gun) so the guys says are you going to take that home today. i said i would love too. but unfortunatly rhe governement won't allow me to own one. he asked why. i then stated i wasn't 21 yet. So he said ohh i am going to need that back and unfotunatly i can't let you handle anymore handguns.

This crap is news too me. i hadn't even got to check out the Sig Pros yet.
I have never had this problem in the past is this something new i am unaware of. :cuss:

[Sunray]

Go elsewhere. That clerk is full of excrement and apparently has lost you as a customer anyway. And if he's that stupid you don't want to give him your business anyway. And you should move to a State that will treat you like the potential soldier you are. I mean, your Regular Army will take you at 18, but you can't drink, sign a contract, vote, etc where you are until 21. Move.

[Kharn]

The same thing happened to me two weeks before my 21st birthday. I had a big wad of cash in my wallet in case I needed to make a deposit on a hard-to-get pistol while comparision shopping, but the dealer asked to see ID before he'd even unlock the case. Since he'd also been an *** to me before (he's not really friendly) when I was getting CO2 for my paintball guns, I havent been back.

If he hadnt acted like I was the ATF there to pull a sting on him, I might have gone back (as his wanting to see ID first is normal in Maryland), but now I will no longer darken his doorstep.

Kharn

[client32]

I don't know what the law on that is.
I did run across a "kid" behind the counter that thought he needed to check my ID to make sure that I was 21 before we would allow me to hold a gun. He thought he needed to show off in front of the other people there. I put kid in quotes because he was probably older than me. I was 23 at the time.

[raz-0]

well check your local laws. Technically it could be valid if your state is onerous enough and you aren't there with a parent or gaurdian. IT also might just be a gray area (i.e. you can't have minors without parent or gaurdian, and you have to be 21 for handguns.. what about 21 and fondling a handgun without P or G?), and the shop is covering their butts.

[TonyB]

In NY state you can't touch a handgun unless you already have a permit....no matter how old you are....and you can't get a permit till you're 21 so you do the math........all those guys teaching your kids to shoot the old 22 revolver in the woods or backyard.......you're breaking the law.....welcome NY ,where common sence has been thrown out the window!!!I gotta move to Vermont....the ONLY free state left.:mad:
Oh yeah...if you have a permit and go into the woods and shoot your buddies gun......guess what......a criminal....at the range it's ok tho...like that makes any kind of sense........:mad:

[Black92LX]

weel in ohio as long as you are with someone over 21 you can use a handgun. or at least that's what i thought and the guy behind the counter was clearly over 21.

[CWL]

Tough one, them's the breaks when you are under an age limit.

To be honest about it, If I ran a bar, I'd kick you out. If I sold cars and you were under 16, I'd not let you test drive.

This guy may just be a jerk, or he could be fearful of the Columbine event.

Would it help if you explained that you would be turning 21 in x-months and are contemplating the purchase of a new handgun on your birtday, so you wanted to learn all about them beforehand?

[Henry Bowman]

To be honest about it, If I ran a bar, I'd kick you out. If I sold cars and you were under 16, I'd not let you test drive.
It ain't a bar. Those are completely different (although maybe just as stupid) laws. We're not talking about test driving. If a 15 year old was there with a big wad of cash in his pocket, would you at least let him sit behind the wheel (w/o keys) in the show room?

Black, we gotta find you a new gun shop.

[pale horse]

Its the law now you can either live with it or you cant. Its been a law since I can remember and if I am not mistaken its a federal law. I would have done the same thing.

[LCSNM]

I have read the comments here and other posts and forums with interest. I have purchased several firearms, mainly from two dealers. Last week, I purchased another firearm from a 3rd dealer, one I had never purchased from before.

After completion of the necessary paperwork and wrapping my firearm up for me to take home, I was handed a pamphlet, "I am required to give this to you by law". No other comment from the clerk. Note: I have never seen this pamphlet or been given it by any other dealer.

YOUTH HANDGUN SAFETY ACT NOTICE ATF I 5300.2 (7-98)

FEDERAL LAW

The Gun Control Act of 1968, 18 U.S>C. Chapter 44, provides in pertinent part as follows.

18U.S.C.922(X)

****I don't want to type the whole pamphlet, but some short excerpts*****

It shall be unlawful for a person to sell, DELIVER, or therwise transfer to a person who the transferor knows or has rasonable cause to believe is a juvenile.
handgun or ammunition that is suitable for use only in a handgun

it shall be unlawful for any person who is a juvenile to possess
handgun
ammunition that is suitable for use only in a hangun


DOES NOT APPLY TO

JUVENILE IF THE HANDGUN AND AMMO ARE POSSESSED AND USED BY THE JUVENILE

course of employment, in the course of ranching or farming related to activities at the residence of the juvenile
with the prior written consent of the juveniles parent or guardian


ETC ETC ETC

Alot of do's and don't and gotcha's. I wasn't aware of this law until last week. Have I been out to pasture that long?

You might ask your dealers if they have this pamphlet.

Sorry about some misspelled/mistyped words, trying to read and type at the same time.

Iit appears that the store clerk was correct in refusing to allow the handling of the gun, in the original post. It also appears that questions by Walmart for juveniles is dictated by law. Sorry, not shouting, just forget to hit the capslock button. Hope this helps some understanding, although frustrating.

[Old Fuff]

The clerk in question may indeed be a jerk. But do keep in mind that these days anti-gun advovates, the media, and even the ATF&E are going around trying to set dealers and gun stores up.

If I was running a store I would be very careful about letting someone who was underage handle a handgun unless they were with a parent or other adult.

Unfortunately people in the trade have to take precautions that wouldn't have been thought of a few years ago.

[Stevie-Ray]

In Michigan you must be 21 also. Though in Wayne County, they'd prefer you to be 95 and infirm, so you could no longer lift it.

[Jeff OTMG]

You don't state how old you are, just that you are under 21. Ohio may have a state law that pertains to you, but if you are over 18 then it is fine for you to handle a handgun in a gun shop. No, you can't buy one there, but you can handle it.

The YOUTH HANDGUN SAFETY ACT NOTICE states:
(5) For purposes of this subsection, the term“juvenile” means a person who is less than 18years of age.

It is found in 18 U.S.C. 924(a)(6) and as stated there are numerous exceptions, but under federal law you are fine. Sounds like another case of an FFL holder not knowing the laws that govern his business.

[Don Gwinn]

Bear in mind as well that he may really know what is "permitted" better than you do, regardless of what the law says. It's not unusual for police to lean on gun shops and ranges, including arresting people for perfectly legal behavior and trusting the court system to "sort it out" (which appears to be a euphemism for "bankrupt the uppity civil rights nut.")

Illinois law requires that a gun be transported inside a "case, box, shipping box, bag, or other container" and unloaded. It does not mention ammunition and specifically states that any container is acceptable, and Illinois courts have found over the years that anything that completely encloses the gun is a "container."

However, most police are trained to believe that guns must be kept in the trunk of a vehicle with ammunition in a separate compartment and must be in gun-specific cases. Many also believe that the cases must be lockable (and must be locked up.) Though this is nonsense, lots of people go along with it rather than fight the tide. Hell, two shooters were once arrested in Springfield, IL for carrying a rifle in a case that also had several loaded magazines in pockets on its outside. They were--and this is not disputed--walking across the private parking lot owned by the indoor range they'd just visited at the time. In other words, as long as the owner approved, they could have been carrying those rifles loaded at the ready as long as they had FOID cards. That stopped a conviction, but it didn't stop an arrest.

I know that's not right, but it's understandable.

[Black92LX]

Bear in mind as well that he may really know what is "permitted" better than you do, regardless of what the law says.

i am not stating that he is wrong. just that this has never been mentioned in the past. nor have i heard of it.

[Tamara]

If he hadnt acted like I was the ATF there to pull a sting on him,

How did he know you weren't? :scrutiny:

I'd recommend working for a while in a business where every innocent paperwork error is a federal felony; a business where the agency that's supposed to regulate and oversee you maintains an adversarial relationship with you, and actively tries to run dealers out of business. See if it makes you just a leetle paranoid... :uhoh:

[Moparmike]

Yep. I posted on this back in September, when I bought my shotgun. Weird thing is that my shotgun came stock with a pistol grip (!) in the box (separate from gun). Moronic laws these days.:cuss:

Tamara, I genuinely feel for you, and those in your business. I had my last gun shop treat me the same way as 92lx (as I was purchasing and had checkbook in hand!). Unfortunately for me, I keep getting the crazy guy at the best gunshop around.:scrutiny: :uhoh:

I genuinely feel for you too 92LX, as I dont turn 21 until july. However, I circumvented that stupid-a$$ law by doing a private party. (tee hee) See if its kosher in your state to do that. See if you can talk your parents into private party one for you.

Best of luck,

[CWL]

Moparmike, what you are describing sounds like a straw sale .

[Wildalaska]

I'd recommend working for a while in a business where every innocent paperwork error is a federal felony; a business where the agency that's supposed to regulate and oversee you maintains an adversarial relationship with you, and actively tries to run dealers out of business. See if it makes you just a leetle paranoid...

What she said........!

And, when a million dollar plus business can be shut down throwing numerous people out of work simply becasue of a "technical" violation of the law, well guess what, the rules aint gettin bent at all...

And I for one am tired of all the whining about it (not necessarily here I may add)...

WilddotheisandcrossthetsAlaska

[Geech]

Moparmike, what you are describing sounds like a straw sale .

Nope. According to federal law, parents can buy their under 21 children handguns.

[twoblink]

Don't get me wrong, there are always serious jerks in some of the gun shops, but overall, I usually think they are trying to CYA and so I cut them some slack.

I do recall a "which is the dumbest law in the PRK?" Competition the local gun shop had before, and some of the laws they dug up was enough to swoon the average man.. (One of them said he was almost positive that whaling with a rifle is listed as illegal..was this a problem they've run into?? I see a 5000 ton whale, and I have the urge to pull out my 308??)

You gotta stick it where the real problem is, the gov'ment. It's THEIR stupid laws.. so if you aren't happy, write write write your wormweas'ling congress critter...

BTW... Can I just add, most gun laws suck? :cuss:

[Sven]

Got my NEW and IMPROVED :scrutiny: California Handgun Safety Certificate today... (after my 'lifetime' certificate from last year was replaced by the wonderful legislature here, another $25).

The two questions I got wrong:

Minimum age to buy a gun in CA? (i said 18, answer is 21)
How long your guns are taken if you have a felony (I said 10 years, answer is LIFE)

[Kevlarman]

Well, it is called the handgun safety certificate, so I assumed all the drivel contained in the test pertained to handguns. :P

[Tamara]

Nope. According to federal law, parents can buy their under 21 children handguns.

Scenario A: "Bobby, here is the handgun I bought you for Christmas."
Scenario B: "Here's $500, Mom; remember, it's the Model 21C I'm wanting. Bob's Sporting Goods has them."


One of those scenarios is a straw purchase, the other isn't. Like question one on a 4473 says: "Are you the actual buyer of this firearm?"

[Double Naught Spy]

At our store, we never allowed folks under 21 to handle handguns unless it was via their parent and then we handed the gun to the parent and if the parent chose to allow a child to handle it, assuming it was handled safely, we had no problem. Basically, there was no reason to put an item into the hands of a person who legally could not own it and we ran the risk of getting into trouble if the kid decided to try to make a break for the front door with a gun in pistol in hand.

Along the same lines, we did not show rifles or shotguns to kids under 18 for the same reasons. If they brought in their folks, then it wasn't an issue.

There is nothing rude about the policy. At the time, I had thought it was law and maybe it was or wasn't. I don't know now. Either way, it wasn't rude. It was just what we felt was the appropriate way of doing business in a responsible manner.

[Jonesy9]

you can't fault him for not risking his business by breaking the law to serve you. sure, he could be more tactful but you have the choice whether or not to patronize his store when you are of legal age.

[anapex]

Scenario A: "Bobby, here is the handgun I bought you for Christmas."
Scenario B: "Here's $500, Mom; remember, it's the Model 21C I'm wanting. Bob's Sporting Goods has them."

Man I think I use both of those lines on my wife.

[Black92LX]

you can't fault him for not risking his business by breaking the law to serve you

In no way did i say he was wrong. i was simply stating that this had never happened to me in the past at the same store. even when they knew i wasn't 21.

[Kevlarman]

So what's the difference between a straw purchase and buying it as a gift?

Me: "Mom, I wouldn't be opposed if you bought me an SKS for my birthday"
Mom: "Sure honey!"
Me: "Coincidentally, here's the $200 I owed you for my car insurance."

*coughcough*

[Kharn]

Tamara:
You are correct that he had no idea knowing if I was a sting or not, but he went about expressing himself the wrong way, including a few four-letter words and name calling, rather than a simple 'No, come back after your birthday.'

Kharn

[Gus Dddysgrl]

hmmm I have no idea. I've never tried to hold one without my dad there. However if dad was there, but on the other side of the store they would still let me handle them. Now that I'm 21 I can go one myself and all that.

I don't see what's wrong with letting younger people look at them and handle them. That is if they didn't look too young and as long as someone was watching closely, making sure they don't break the gun rules. If they are future buyers why not treat them well now?

I don't know why it would be illegal, but if it is against the law then it's against the law.

Gus

[sm]

Besides the various FFL, local, state, and other reg's mentioned, there is the insurance company.

Times have changed. Yep, as a brat I was allowed to handle guns at Sears, pswn shops and hardware stores. Granted I'd been in with and adult and they new me, and showed safety, but heck we were taught gun/archery in school. During hunting seasons, oh yeah, guns in vehicles becase we haunted before and after school.

Sometimes it is NOT Age. Go to a Fine Jewlery Store, the sign says" due to insurance regulations, only one item may be removed from showcase at a time".

Profiling is a reality. A fellow in a suit that has no money but owes multple credit cards may get to look at a $ 10k ring, or a fine shotgun. Take a fellow ( as I actually did) a OK oil man with $50K cash in his pocket and the sales people wouldn't give him the time of day. He still had mud on his boots, wearing Tuff Nutts, and flew in on his private LearJet. Profiled tho'.

I halted that because I had made the appointment with the owner before hand. $48K cash for a Pink diamond ring. His wife went through the same deal buying him two fine double rifles, for cash. Just an anniversary gift(s).

The employees were shocked to say the least, well, umm Insurance companies said and made the rules.

Its sucks to be young at times, as aging progresses its easier sometimes to understand. It really sucks to wake up one day and you hear yourself say the very things you resented as a youth.

One my buddies( owned a gun store)whom passed away stopped himself with a kid with green hair and earrings about the 21 y/o age dealie,one day he knew this kids parents, we just went to the backroom and let him see the gun he wanted -put-on L/A had another 4 months to go, but he was making deposits with his own money toward an "in store acct". We just didn't need anyone we didn't know making a fuss, all legal. The kid didn't like the law , was respectful and we respected him. At 21 his parents surprised him with the balance needed, and ammo. He survived being shunned.

[355sigfan]

Your wasting his time. You can't buy it so I don't blame him one bit.
Pat

[Moparmike]

Your wasting his time.Using one's time on a potential customer isnt wasting time, its a good business practice. Every first year business student and business man knows this, or will learn it the hard way by bad word-of-mouth recomendations.

At the very least, a nice explanation of the law in a cordial manner with an apology is in order.

[Ala Dan]

Greeting's All-

Well, kid or NO kid you were checking out one fine
handgun my friend! I have an older (1990) West
German (with proof marks) SIG P228 and high caps
that I wouldn't take a "plug nickle" for. These guns
are amazingly accurate to be combat firearms. And
IMHO, its just the right size for a nice CCW. I stoke
mine with that infamous "Secret Service 9m/m Load"
that no one is willing to talk about. I obtained just
a handful of these from my local PD rangemaster
after the SS finished their qualification. I highly
recommend the P228; and really wish that you
could have carried it home with you that day!

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

[greyhound]

Me: "Coincidentally, here's the $200 I owed you for my car insurance

I've seen a couple types of these responses here in my 6 months at THR.

I have no problem with an 18 year old owning a handgun if their parents approve.

But, it does seem to be a straw purchase, in violation of federal law via question 1 on the 4473, yet ownership through a "gift" (in this case a sham) from a direct relative is OK by many state laws.

Not sure where i am going with this, except maybe to say a true gift, where there is no money changing hands for some bogus "car insurance"seems OK, but sneaking around the system seems like dirty pool.

I guess I wish the laws would get bumped from 21 to 18 on handguns. I can't see a difference between a handgun, rifle or shotgun - anyone who wants to conceal any of 'em is going to do it, by cutting them down, sawing them off, or whatever. And in fact, most rifles and shotguns are more dangerous than handguns, except for concealability.

[Black92LX]

Your wasting his time. You can't buy it so I don't blame him one bit. Pat

IN NO WAY AM I BLAMING HIM!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I was just stating that this had never happened before and i found it to be very strange considering. i have been to this shop numerous times and everytime they knew i wasn't 21.

:fire:

[Matt G]

Yes, the federal, state, and local laws are stupid.

The BATF has been so adament about buffaloing FFL's and gunshops into believing that if anyone makes the tiniest move that they don't approve of, they'll stomp 'em into a new mudhole, that the gunshops are genuinely a wee bit scared. Remember the power these idjits (the alphabet boys) have. They can yank a license, slow up paperwork, do audits, etc, at their pleasure. They have been known to make highly abusive raids in which they destroy property, close shops, and ruin lives, over incorrectly filled-out forms. Over lack of a $200 tax stamp.

Add to that the issues of insurance and the perceived waste of time (with regard to the concept of an immediate sale), against the increased wear to the finish and perception by the ill-informed that they're playing fast and loose with the rules/laws, and I sure can see why they'd be reluctant to let a sub-21-year-old hold one of their guns.

Yes, the laws are stupid.

[Fatcat]

My post was kind of silly, but I still don't like the law. :scrutiny:

[PrudentGT]

Condolances on the rude treatment at the store, sadly in the industry, either because of the 'regulatory climate' or just bad attitudes, it seems to be the rule rather than the exception.

Okay, Ala Dan, you've got my curiosity up, what's the 'Super Secret Secret Service load?' You can PM me if posting it would constitute clear and present danger or something. ;)

[355sigfan]

And how does "Are you the actual buyer of this firearm" actually determine between a lawful and unlawful transaction? I give my parents some money as a gift, the money is now theirs. They use their money to buy a gun and, as a gift, give it to me. Seems pretty hard to prove a straw buy. I obey the letter of the law, but not necessarily the spirit.)
END

This is called a straw purchase and it will get you and your parents in some big trouble. Would not be hard to prove now as you posted it on the net. They can give you weapons in most states. But giving them money to buy you a weapon is a straw purchase. I may not like the law but its best to try and change them not break them.
Pat

[igor]

I wonder if there are precedents available of these intra-familial straw purchases that actually have led to a conviction?

Now there you'll need LE with a true will and motivation to really interfere with a family's privacy... it was the true 70's revisionist communists' battle cry that "your children are not yours" and "the private IS political".

The land of the free, indeed. :D

[Ed]

In 1995 when I was 1 month shy of being 21 I went into a gun store looking for my first 1911. Told them I was looking and didn't have the age or money yet. They had a Springfield that was used about $350 and in great shape. I wanted it.SO I put it on lay-a way. I made a down payment and drove back the 40 miles to the store every week to make a payment and look at it. On the day I turned 21 it was a sunday so Monday morning I drove over and payed it off and picked it up. I think that that was all legal. Due to the way that this store treated me. I probably spent about $5000 in there over the next 3 years in college.

[Ed N.]

Scenario C: "Happy Birthday, Mom! Here's a gift certificate for $500 at Joe Schmoe's Gun Shop."

<1 week later> "Merry Christmas, son! Here's that handgun you wanted!"



Legal, but looks fishy. Would likely only become a problem if the young man got into some sort of trouble while armed. Probably be a tough sell in court.

[dustind]

Bear in mind as well that he may really know what is "permitted" better than you do, regardless of what the law says. It's not unusual for police to lean on gun shops and ranges, including arresting people for perfectly legal behavior and trusting the court system to "sort it out" (which appears to be a euphemism for "bankrupt the uppity civil rights nut.")

:fire:

[CZ52GUY]

Your wasting his time. You can't buy it so I don't blame him one bit.

We need the next generation of shooters...we need them badly!!

We should be RECRUITING new members to our sport.

It is NEVER a waste of time to encourage a young person who is self-motivated to pursue lawful gun ownership!

With the media, and the pol's, academia, and the entertainment industry all aligning themselves in lock step to take away our rights???????

This sentiment is maddening!! :banghead:

Obey the law? Absolutely!

Insurance implications? Understood!

Waste of Time????????

NEVER!!

CZ52'

[CZ52GUY]

...I had a long absence from active participation in our sport.

I was seduced by "likeable/attractive" people who were anti'.

I always maintained my core belief in the 2nd, but like many, I figured being "pragmatic", and "compromising" was a sign of maturity.

9/11/2001 was a huge wakeup call for me, and my wife. We realized that on MANY FRONTS we had been slowly boiled like the mythical frog.

In 2002 I began a journey back into the sport, and I LOVE IT!!

My collection has grown dramatically. I've developed a bond with my brother-in-law who is ex-military/leo who's been kind enough to show me the ropes in so many ways.

I'm WELL PAST my 21st b-day, but because I am relatively new to today's world as a gun owner, I relate very strongly to young people who are trying to find their way into lawful (and safe) gun ownership, and the hobby & sport that I find so very rewarding (beyond even the practical benefits).

EVERY TIME, someone behind the counter puts on their best "crusty old fart" impression, whether its to a young person, a member of the fairer sex, or an ethnic demographic they may not be comfortable with, they risk the future of the 2nd.

We live in a time where so-called "soccer moms" are the STRONGEST ADVOCATES for pilots having the right to carry on commercial flights.

We live in a time where the shock factor of 9/11 has women headed to ranges IN DROVES.

We live in a time when (frauds like Michael Moore notwithstanding) there is a new examination in the public arena of the value proposition of lawful gun ownership by private citizens. Fox News, talk radio, conservative publications...they are all finding an audience where advocates for the 2nd have a fighting chance to get their message out.

The BIGGEST REASON my collection has grown to the size it is today, and the BIGGEST REASON I've become so passionate about our sport is that at a gun show in January 2003, instead of scowling at me (as so many dealers did), somebody yelled "HEY ISN'T THAT COOL!! Here, pick it up!! You gotta' see how this baby points!!"

This dealer hadn't forgotten the joy that our sport offers.

He hadn't forgotten the reward of sharing it with others.

He practically threw the rifle at me. I didn't buy from him that day, but I sought him out (3 hours round trip), because he didn't think time with me was a waste....

I've given him about $2500 business this year alone, and I expect to keep making that long drive because unlike dealers that are much closer, he thinks that I'm worth his time...

...and I think he has earned my business, and he'll continue to.

Best wishes, have a safe Halloween,

CZ52'