[SleazyRider]

I've been curious about this for quite some time: How close do modern replica firearms come to the genuine article? I have a modern Colt .45 SAA and find the fit and finish excellent, but wonder if it would pass for an original if I could take it back 140 or so years, and lay it on the bar in the Longbranch saloon. Did sixguns really look that good? I've seen plenty of old firearms in museums that are tarnished and pitted to varying degrees; are there any perfectly preserved originals out there from which one could draw a comparison? Thank you in advance for your indulgence!

[Jim Watson]

I have seen some NIB 19th century guns.
They look at least as good and usually better than a new gun. One thing, you don't have any of the cratering around roll marks and stamps that is so common on new production Colts. Another, the old rust blue, heat blue, and Carbona blue finishes were labor intensive but are better looking than hot tank blues. And an unworn old nickel plated gun is bright as a jewel.

[SleazyRider]

Jim,

That surprises me, considering the march of technology, especially with regard to machinery and chemistry. Thanks for the reply!

[2RCO]

Sleazy --Jim has it spot on... I can do nothing but concur... With modern technology we often lose artistry and the skilled labor and time involved in crafting a beautiful specimen.

If you look at most Pre WWII guns in 99% plus condition you'll see they are much more finely finished than brand new firearms.

Raleigh

[Jim K]

The old finishes were so good that very few restorers even try to duplicate them, and then they can't duplicate the polishing that was done with hard wheels shaped to the part. Someone once called the old timers "gold dollar economy" guns.

Today's guns are good, but the skilled workmanship isn't there and if it were it would cost so much that the guns would be priced out of the market. We sometimes scorn guns like the S&W breaktops, but one of those in 100% condition is a jewel, as is a Colt SAA with the color casehardened frame and that hard black finish on the rest of the gun.

Of course, those guns were not cheap. Today, we look at old catalogs and see SAA's for $17 and think how lucky folks were to be able to buy so cheaply. But a cowboy made $.50 a day, so buying an SAA would have taken over half a months pay; few ordinary cowboys owned anything so fancy. I use a 40::1 ratio of modern dollars to pre-1914 dollars, so that Colt would have cost the equivalent of $680.

Jim

[SleazyRider]

Thanks, 2RCO, because this is really interesting to me. Whenever I visit a "restored" village or historic building, I even wonder about the true color of the paint as well as firearms. Last summer, I visited the steamboat Arabia in Kansas City, which sank in the Mississippi in the mid-1800s. It was discovered about 130 years later, excavated, and the stuff is on display in KC. Amazing, really, it's like walking into a Walmart a century and a half ago. Everything was in a remarkable state of preservation, so it got me to thinkin' about the firearms and what they looked like as well.

I just assumed firearms of the 1800's were more utilitarian and, therefore, cruder than today, but I stand corrected. I'm glad I asked!

[jimmyraythomason]

I hope this comes through.

[Jim K]

Of course those guns were used, so it is hard to see them as they would have looked when new.

I suggest that SleazyRider visit a large gun show, preferably an antique gun show, if one is in his area, and just look at the old time guns. A few hours of just looking will be an education in the appearances of those guns. Sometimes, even on guns with a lot of finish gone, there will be places where the original finish remains. It is like seeing a patch of blue sky as storm clouds part - a revelation. Rarely will a 100% gun be found, and it will likely be under glass, but still the workmanship can be appreciated.

Jim

[SleazyRider]

Thanks, Mr. Keenan, and a good point you made about the economics of buying a gun 150 years ago. But I'm thinkin' my wife paid $1200.00 or so for my Colt SAA she gave me for my birthday a few years back.

In New York, especially near the Big Apple, good gun shows are few and far between. Last time I went to one (in Orange County) I was very disappointed. Maybe I'll have to travel.

[SleazyRider]

JimmyRay,

Is that the Frank James collection?

[Clermont]

I remember, years ago, reading an article on collecting pre-war Colt Single Action Army revolvers. Most pristine Colt SAA revolvers found in today's collector market were originally sold in the east, where they saw little or no use, and condition begins to worsen on Colt SAAs as you begin to travel west, as usage starts to increase, where the most worn specimens of the Colt SAA were found.

[jimmyraythomason]

sleazyrider, that is the collection on display at the Kansas City Library and does include guns owned by Frank James. Here is a close-up of the upper picture.

[Jim K]

Hi, SleazyRider,

They are selling those Colt SAA's at well above what would be the market value if it were just another gun and not a COLT (all bow down!). A better comparison would be with today's using guns, like Glocks, S&W M&P autos, S&W Model 686, etc.

As to NY gun shows, there are a fair number, in spite of Madman Bloomberg's best efforts. I don't know what your driving range is, but my calendar lists shows at Middletown and Rochester on Sept 12-13, at the Syracuse State Fairground on the 19-20 (NY Arms Collectors), and at Freeport on the 26-27 (antique).

There are several shows coming up in PA and the Chantilly show at the Dulles Expo Center in VA, Oct 2-4, is pretty good. Some folks combine it with a chance to see the DC area.

Jim

[natman]

Fit and finish on good quality firearms from the late 19th century was generally excellent.

Case in point: I have a 1899 Swedish Mauser model 96. It has sharp checkered metal, crisp bluing, sharp clean polishing. To recreate a gun at that level of workmanship now would cost a solid 4 figure price today. Yet this gun was designed to meet the demands of a military contract, so that Swedish farm boys could drag it around in the mud and snow. Labor was a LOT cheaper then than it is now and they could afford to put in the extra hours of hand work. the top makers simply refused to make a gun below a certain standard of finish, military contract or no.

I also have a WW2 Remington Model 11 Sportsman that was used as a skeet gun to train aerial gunners. Due to wartime demand it has a matte finish, better than what you would find on a 700 SPS today. Remington was so embarrassed by the finish they stamped in capital letters "MILITARY FINISH" lest anyone think it represented Remington's normal standard.

[rondog]

You wanna see old guns in great condition, and lots of them? Go visit the J.M. Davis Gun Museum in Claremore, OK. World's largest privately owned gun collection. No two are alike. http://www.thegunmuseum.com/

[Speedo66]

If you want to see old guns in their original pristine condition in NY, go to the Metropolitan Museum of Art in NYC.

They have an arms and armor section on the first floor that is nothing less than incredible.

Most of their late 19th century arms are Colt pistols and Winchester rifles that were given as presentation pieces, and as such, probably never used. Many are highly decorated pieces by Tiffany & Co., but you'll get a good idea of what the manufacturers were capable of at the time.

As far as gun shows, hopefully a future change in county gov't will return gun shows to the Westchester County Center.

The amount of money being made at Yonkers Raceway with slot machine gambling probably precludes shows there ever again.

There are minor shows in CT near Danbury to satisfy the itch, though I agree the shows at the Orange Co. fair grounds, Middletown, NY, are poor.

[SleazyRider]

Dang, Speedo66, I'm embarrassed; The Metropolitan Museum of Art is right in my own backyard and I didn't even think of it. I haven't been there in ages, so it's on my list of things to do this fall. Thanks for the wake-up!

The show at the Orange County Fairgrounds is the only one I've ever been to and, quite frankly, I was wondering why folks got all "wee-wee'd up," in the parlance of President Obama, about gun shows. It was pathetic; an over-inflated flea market of junk that that wasn't moving in retail stores.

[Avenger]

People also tend to underestimate the machining capabilities from the Civil War era. Most everyday items didn't require any real degree of precision, why manufacture with tolerances in the thousandths when hundredths or even tenths will do fine? But things like watches and clocks, target rifle trigger mechanisms, rifle bores, screw breech blocks, steam engine valving.....those require a high degree of precision that was well within the capabilities of the day. I'm not saying that just ANY machine shop could turn out those results, that was high-dollar high-end work...the rocket engineering of the day.