Frustrated loading 7mm WSM.

I'm at my wits end. I've had a Savage 7mm WSM for several years and, when it's working, I love it. However, reloading for the thing has become extremely frustrating. A while back, I had regular problems with a sticky bolt. It even occurred when I was at the starting loads for a Sierra bullet I was loading. I did some reading and it was suggested that for WSMs I needed to "bump" back the shoulder to ensure sufficient headspace and, in turn, to fix the sticky bolt problems. Well, I got myself a headspace comparator, bumped the shoulders and things seemed to get better. I worked up the load to the max with no real problems with a sticky bolt. My most accurate load came in about 1.5 grains shy of the max. I loaded up a box and took it to the range to zero the scope. I put one of my reloads in and fired it and the bolt was so sticky that I couldn't get it unstuck at the range. I got it unstuck at home and there were other obvious signs of excess pressure -- flat, loose primer, marks on the face of the cartridge.

I've had enough. This will be about the third time that I will have to pull bullets, pop the primers (and they're easy to replace these days!), and try to again resize the brass. All for another chance to get a sticky bolt as I work the load up again. I've loaded for two other rifles and never had these problems. What's a shooter to do? Is this a WSM problem, is it my rifle, or am I doing something wrong when I resize? As I see it, I can (1) only shoot factory ammo [at $40+ a box]; (2) take it to a gunsmith to see if there's any issues that he/she can fix; or (3) sell the blasted thing and move on.

First off, what kind of temperatures did you work the loads up in? That could cause problems.
Next, you do not need to knock out the live primers....you just take the decapping pin out of the decapping stem! So that is easy enough.

Does the bolt have a problem loading a cartridge in the chamber prior to firing? What I'm asking is the bolt sticky at anytime before firing, or is it only after firing? If the shoulder of the case was the problem, IE headspace, it would show up when chambering a live round and would require extra effort to do it.
If there is no issue until after firing, then next we need to know the powder load, bullet and primer. We do need to determine if the problem is technique or data or both, when loading. Does the brass need trimming?
45ACPUSER brings up a valid question too.



NCsmitty

I don't have one of the short magnums. But, I have seen factory round photos with fired case heads extruding up into the ejector pin hole and up into the extractor claw relief, and primer cups starting to extrude up the firing pin hole... ergo. sticky bolts.

IMO (fireproof suit just donned, because I have no proof) the super short magnum designers did not intend for their fat, rebated cases to be reloaded. Or at best, it was the least of their worries. As long as the remnants of that fresh factory round just holds together, and the spent primer does not fall out, it is all good. If you want to recycle brass, then back way down from those magnum factory pressures and velocities.

first, let's kill that off... i load the bejeebers out of short mags. no reason why not.

the wsm's have a couple of tricky spots that seem to be unique to the wsm cases (don't load for the rsaum's, so it may be the same there, too).

resizing cases is a little more critical in the wsm's than in other cases. also, when seating bullets, you've got to be sure to not be crimping at all - get the die backed way off of the case mouth.

i'll echo smitty's questions for now, and also ask for die brand/type.

also, keep in mind it is entirely possible for this all to be a rifle problem, and not a reloading issue.

.
Here is a bejeebers load: (Look carefully at the comments)
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140 grain Sierra ProHunter
69.0 Grains of Reloader-22 (Compressed load)
3349 FPS
3488 Ft.Lbs.
22.0" Barrel
2.825 COAL

This load was developed using Sierra pointed, jacketed, soft-point, flat-based bullets (ProHunter).
In terms of power, the developer considers this a MAXIMUM load and notes this charge is COMPRESSED in the case.
The velocity measurement is by chronograph.
Winchester cases and CCI 250 primers were used in development.

COMMENTS:
Start at 66 grains. In my gun 69 grains causes borderline boltlift issues. I refuse to drop down because 69 grains shoots 0.5" groups at 100 yards. Not bad for 3500 ft/lbs. Good luck.
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Hodgdon (who has an impressive test lab, by the way) stops stuffing powder at <64,000 psi measured chamber pressure for the 7mm WSM.

IMO, to prevent "sticky bolt", and preserve brass life, I suggest trimming your wick back to < 62,000 psi chamber pressure range, use full length sizing hard overcenter on the ram, trim to less than 2.100", keep chamber and case free of lubricants, and see if you can live with that.

One thing I have noticed about the Whizzem cartridges is they have very thick case-necks when compared to other normal belted mags of the same caliber.

7mm Whizzem = .0185" wall thickness.
7mm Remington = .0155" wall thickness.


I'd suggest you try fitting a new bullet in the case necks of some fired but not re-sized cases, and see if they will slip in & out easily.

Could be a combination of a tight chamber + thick case necks not having enough room to expand & release the bullet.

rc

A good friend of mine shoots a lot of 7mm WSM. Absolutely no problems and he just loads the same way he does (and I do) for .260 .308 .338LM, etc.

Things to check:

* Are you full sizing cases, or neck sizing? If you are F.S., can you confirm the die is resizing it back to original dimensions?

* Do you ever have the problem with new factory cases, or just your fired/processed cases? If the latter, then it's something you're doing to the case.

* Like rcmodel said, check neck thickness. You can seat a bullet and then measure the O.D. of the neck.

* Overall length - if you are full sizing the case may be growing in length.

.
I think the thicker material in the neck and shoulder (SAAMI / SAE dwg. says .0185") is, in part, to assure ample neck tension due to the short neck (.243"). Older bottle neck case designs tried to offer at least one caliber length of neck, some even more.

Also, the shoulder angle is up to 35 degrees to allow stuffing more powder in the case. The extra thickness helps prevent shoulder collapse or bulging when inserting the bullet.

Okay. Thanks for all the input. I full-length size with an RCBS sizing die. I used the Stoney Point comparator to compare: #1 factory fresh brass; #2 fire-formed brass; and #3 my resized brass. Using the standard directions on the RCBS dies, value #3 was not much different than #2. Then, using the recommendations on the comparator directions, I bumped the shoulders back .001-.002 by turning the die in 1/4 to 1/3 turn past the point where it touches the shellholder. Although I bumped the shoulder, the newly sized brass with this bump was still longer at the shoulder than the factory fresh stuff. I thought this fixed the problem when I worked up the load -- i.e. no sticky bolt.

To answer some other questions:

It was cool when I worked up the loads, but it was only in the mid-70s when I shot this weekend.

All loads loaded into the chamber just fine without any noticeable issues.

I trim all of my rifle brass as part of my reloading ritual.
Tonight I'll check on the bullet seating question.

Factory Winchester 150 grain Powerpoints do make the bolt a little sticky. Nothing like these reloads have, but they make it sticky nonetheless.

Coincidentally, I was also shooting Sierra 140 gr. Pro Hunters. But I was using AA3100. Unfortunately, I don't have my notes or the load manual with me here at work. I do know that it was between 1 and 2 grains below the max load listed in the Sierra manual. Winchester Magnum Large Rifle primers and the same COAL used in the Sierra data.

Although I bumped the shoulder, the newly sized brass with this bump was still longer at the shoulder than the factory fresh stuff.A couple of possibilities I can think of.

1. "Tolerance stacking", or a minimum headspace chamber, combined with a maximum cut die just isn't setting the shoulders back where they came from.
RCBS can fix that if you send them the die and a few fired cases.
Alternately, you can remove a few thousandths off the bottom of the die or top of the shell holder to increase shoulder set-back a little more.

2. Work hardened brass, combined with the thick case is "springing back" too much after sizing.
You might try annealing the case necks and shoulders on a few before sizing and see if that makes them behave better.

rc

A couple things you might try. After firing one of the handloads and factory loads check and see if you can insert a bullet easily. This will confirm the chamber neck is not to tight for your brass. I have a Remington factory 22-250 that with a certain brand of brass I have pressure problems with because the neck is to tight in the chamber a bullet won't enter a fired case out of this brand of brass.

Try some different primers such as 215M, 215, CCI 250, WLR.

WLRM have consistently given me the worst accuracy in side by side testing with other primers over the years. Further in a primer testing article I have WLRM primers generate the highest pressure of all Large rifle and large rifle magnum primers. With some of the poorest velocity to pressure ratios out there. IMO they are just to harsh.

It even occurred when I was at the starting loads for a Sierra bullet I was loading.This could be a sign the chamber needs polishing that the surface finish is to rough.

Sticky bolt is caused by too much thrust against the bolt face, ie. too much compression stress between case head and bolt face. The thrust needs to be transferred out of the case body to the chamber walls. That is not an easy task for the short bodied magnums. It seems to me that one would need a high coefficient of friction between case body and chamber wall, not a polished out low coefficient of friction. Maybe after years of use, the Savage chamber walls have become too slippery?

If Crashola is loathe to trim the wick back, then maybe a good scrubbing with acetone followed by alcohol in the chamber would be in order. This, followed by acetone wipe down of the finished cartridge assemblies. And, take care not to get the acetone on plastic or other organic finishes.

I have been playing with the numbers with Quickload, but the Sierra recommended max. powder load is missing. I don't have a Sierra manual, and apparently they do not have it online.

Finally, if it is suspected that the sizing die and shell holder being used are not pushing up the case far enough to bump the shoulder back another .002 or .003, Crashola could try some thin shims between the case head and shell holder to see if that fixes the sizing problem.

My vote is for the rifle being the primary issue. There are too many folk reloading the 7wsm, including me, who have no real issues outside of actions being even too short for the short. Since even factory, barrister loads can be sticky in your rifle, the rifle is even more suspect. A couple of areas that warrant examination are the throat, a rough throat or one with a "carbon ring can do strange things to your pressure curves, like popping primers with what are normally safe loads. Does your cleaning rod hesitatate before proceeding into the bore? Or does a brush drag as it leaves the chamber? Some powder, bullet, primer combos can cause a build up in the throat, especially if moly coating has been done in the past. A good scrubbing with solvent followed with a really good scrubbing with JB will usually clean this up, side benefit is usually improved accuraxcy also. [I]ll admit Savages exhibit phenominal accuracy at times, but Im underwhelmed with their QC, so I recommend a good check out of the locking lugs, the bolt and bolt head interface and the locing lug abbutment in the receiver. There could be galling, lug setback , corrosion, etc causing the binding upon firing. Post note, the 7 is one of the few cartridges that Ive seen almost no problems with pressure issues, something I cant say about some others such as the little quiet 5,56. Dont give up yet, its a fixable problem...

A troubleshooting procedure just occurred to me. I have a bag of factory brass that's never been touched. I could build up some more loads (working from starting load to what I was shooting on Saturday) with the factory brass and see if I get any problems. That should let me know pretty quickly whether the problem is in the resizing or in the rifle.

A good scrubbing with solvent followed with a really good scrubbing with JB will usually clean this up, side benefit is usually improved accuraxcy also. [I]ll admit Savages exhibit phenominal accuracy at times, but Im underwhelmed with their QC, so I recommend a good check out of the locking lugs, the bolt and bolt head interface and the locing lug abbutment in the receiver. There could be galling, lug setback , corrosion, etc causing the binding upon firing.

However, I am still pondering why Crashola cannot bump his once fired case, back to factory fresh size.

Have you measured the web area of the case? Is it expanding after firing using new brass. if so, your loads are to hot. Don't go by the book for maximum, go by what you rifle is telling you. The factory dies do not size all the way to the extractor groove. These guys know about hard bolt lift/maximum pressures here > http://www.benchrest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63787&highlight=bolt+lift+click

Although I bumped the shoulder, the newly sized brass with this bump was still longer at the shoulder than the factory fresh stuff. Factory is undersized. As long as the rounds chamber, your good to go. All loads loaded into the chamber just fine without any noticeable issues. You don't have a sizing problem. You have a to high a pressure problem. Measure the web, before and after firing. If the web expands as little as .0005" your to Hot.

Update: I tried the suggestion to fit a bullet into a fired case. It slipped in and out pretty easily, so case neck tension may not be a problem. I also loaded up some similar loads with factory-new brass and I'll be taking those to the range this weekend to see if I have the same problems.

I'm hunting an early elk season this year and do not want to be without a good rifle. I've been without a backup rifle for some time, so I went out and bought an older 700 BDL in 30-06. I'll be taking that to the range this weekend too!

I don't blame you for getting a backup. Nothing sucks worse than a stuck bolt on a hunt, trying to beat the thing open while the big bugler of a lifetime gets away.
The 700BDL 30-06 is a good choice. According to Layne Simpson, a good elk load is Hornady 180 gr. interbond with 57 gr of H4350. Good luck.