More than Double Taps


PDA






riverdog
August 25, 2009, 12:37 PM
I did a quick search on Double Taps and found a good thread discussing them in a thread on Double Tap Questions (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=256963&highlight=hammer+double+tap). The “Dedicated Pair” is an aimed sight picture – shot #1 – recover from recoil – flash sight picture – shot #2But that's just two rounds downrange. What is it called when you fire the entire magazine (say a dozen) with a flash picture before each successive round? TIA

If you enjoyed reading about "More than Double Taps" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Eric F
August 25, 2009, 12:54 PM
What is it called when you fire the entire magazine (say a dozen) with a flash picture before each successive round? TIA supressive fire!

I dont think it is called anything really. I do not know any one who would in a real situation unless it is for supressive fire.

rcmodel
August 25, 2009, 01:02 PM
It's called Spray & Pray.

rc

riverdog
August 25, 2009, 01:22 PM
There's no flash picture acquired for Spray & Pray.

Drail
August 25, 2009, 01:29 PM
In IPSC/USPSA shooting it's called a "Bill Drill" named after Bill Wilson, founder of Wilson Combat. The goal is to place an entire magazine into the A zone of an IPSC target as quickly as possible. Any hits not in the A zone don't count. The object is to watch the front sight cycle up and down and learn to hold the gun so that the front sight tracks up and down consistently. If done properly the sight will return to the same point it started from for the next shot. It is more difficult than it sounds and is a valuable tool to learn fast combat shooting. It's also a whole bunch of fun.

scythefwd
August 25, 2009, 01:34 PM
drail,
How large is the A zone and at what distance are we talking here?

Drail
August 25, 2009, 01:39 PM
I don't remember the actual numbers (it's been a few years) Approximate distance is 10 yards. A zone is about 3 X 5 in. This performed from a position of hands above shoulders-react to a buzzer and draw a cocked and locked pistol from a holster. Go to the USPSA website and they should have actual dimensions of the targets. Also read Brian Enos' book "Practical Shooting-Beyond Fundamentals" He goes into to great detail on speed combat shooting.

Drail
August 25, 2009, 01:43 PM
Fastest reaction draw time I achieved was .7 seconds on the first shot. From a competition holster starting with hands above shoulders. I went downhill from there. I could shoot fast times but not with great accuracy. Go to Youtube and search for Rob Leatham if you want to see how it should be done.

Drail
August 25, 2009, 01:45 PM
The pros can pull a .2 second draw and hit. Consistently.

CoRoMo
August 25, 2009, 03:05 PM
I like this guy's videos. This is his "Bill Drill" revisited.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzuRXy_Kij8&feature=fvw

Here is his explanation of the double tap.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wbg2s2bfjhw&feature=channel

riverdog
August 25, 2009, 07:08 PM
"Bill Drill" isn't the term I remember it being called, but since that seems to be a recognized term, it will do. The term I don't recall sounded like more of a description of the rhythm. Whatever -- "Bill Drill" works. Thanks.

z3ro
August 25, 2009, 08:33 PM
nice vid for the double tap! i wanna go out and try that with my 45 now

Drail
August 26, 2009, 08:31 AM
When practicing double taps go slow at first and don't let yourself fall into the trap of just firing two shots rapidly. You want to remember to see a sight picture on each shot. Then speed up gradually. Watch the sight lift and return. If your grip is neutral it will return to the correct place all by itself. If the sights are moving side to side or diagonally you are torquing the gun. Good luck. (although luck really doesn't have much to do with combat shooting)

9mmepiphany
August 26, 2009, 02:43 PM
...just to add that your goal should be to break the shot as the sights settle on the target. resetting the trigger and taking up the slack should occur while the gun is in recoil.

you easily double the time needed if you wait for the sights to return before resetting the trigger...or you'll just jerk/flinch the shot off, which is what causes dropped shots

Hk Dan
August 26, 2009, 03:25 PM
The Bill Drill can be at any distance, but it was originally done at 7 yards. The "A" zone on a USPSA Metric target is 6" x 12", and you're trying to place 6 shots in it for that drill. Edit--The draw and those six "A" zone hits should be completed in 2.0 seconds (ideally)

A great time for a first shot is .7. The cowboy fast draw guys can do it in .2 (World record), but most run .7 to .8 on the first shot.

Dan

9MMare
August 26, 2009, 03:42 PM
This is a very educational thread. Is there a way to save this or list it associated with my profile?

9mmepiphany
August 26, 2009, 05:07 PM
The Bill Drill can be at any distance, but it was originally done at 7 yards. The "A" zone on a USPSA Metric target is 6" x 12", and you're trying to place 6 shots in it for that drill. Edit--The draw and those six "A" zone hits should be completed in 2.0 seconds (ideally)

what we do in classes is start at the 7 yard line and start moving back after each string of fire

akodo
August 28, 2009, 12:44 AM
This is a very educational thread. Is there a way to save this or list it associated with my profile?

easiest way is to go to the very top, and look for 'Thread Tools', open that up by left clicking on it, and select 'subscribe' (you are then given options such as having emails sent to you when people post something new...put no for that option)

Now, from any thread on THR you can go up to the 'User CP' also at the top. This will open your profile. There you have a List Subscriptions option. Left click that to open a list of al the subscribed threads. Click on one of those and you will be taken to it.

It is less complicated than it sounds

9MMare
August 28, 2009, 04:34 AM
Thanks very much akodo!

It's done.

David E
August 29, 2009, 12:27 AM
The "Bill Drill" consists of SIX shots, not the entire magazine.

Further, the IPSC guys do not have a .2 draw. Comparing a cowboy fast draw where they are allowed to be millimeters away from the gun to an IPSC 'wrists above shoulders' draw is meaningless.

Few shooters break one second for their draw in matches, but it's target dependent. I had a .57 at a match, once, (hands naturally at sides) but the target allowed it.

The Lone Haranguer
August 29, 2009, 06:41 AM
You should not train yourself, IMO, to only shoot "double-taps." Fire triples, quadruples, or even entire magazine- or cylinder-fuls - always being sure to acquire a "flash sight picture" for each shot - whatever it takes to get the job done.

If you enjoyed reading about "More than Double Taps" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!