[ssteven1]

I saws this neat S&W 38 special hand ejector 1st model on auction. went out of my price range but I thought I would let you know. It supposed to have a serial # of just 865!! here the link. I sure wish I had some extra money :)

http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=12951573

[SnWnMe]

It looks like somebody used it as a doorstop!

[BluesBear]

Ya don't see many of them without the forward locking lug around any more.

Ugly yes but I bet there's a fair bit of history there. Too bad it can't talk.
I would have bought it for that price.

[C.R.Sam]

Yeah, looks like it went for a fair price.
That's one of the reasons I am not into nickel guns.
A little bit of flake = a lot of ugly.

Sam

[Mike Irwin]

Pretty damned amazing when you consider just how "modern" that design looks when you compare it with a 10-7.

Is it little wonder that the basic S&W design is the most manufactured, and one of the most copied, handgun of all time?

About 21k of them made without the locking lug under the barrel, and quite a few were made in .38 Long Colt.

There's always been a lot of discussion as to when the .38 S&W Spl. cartridge was introduced to the shooting public -- COTW says 1902, but I contend that's simply incorrect as is the entire statement in the book "...it was developed by S&W and introduced with their Military & Police Model revolver in 1902." -- the Model 1899 was the introduction of the M&P...

[BluesBear]

Weren't all of the First Model Hand Ejectors "officially" .38 Long Colt?

I am sure that they were plenty sturdy enough for the original .38 S&W Special cartidge and IF they were all .38LC then the chambers were bored straight through and the longer case of the Special would have been no problem.

Did they un-officially switch to .38 Special without making a big deal of it until the Second model came about?
It appears that many people switched to the Special ammo after it became available.



My Grandfather carried an 1895 Colt New Navy for over 20 years as a guard at North American Fertilizer in Louyisville, KY. It has full naval markings but the barrel was simply marked D.A..38.
He claimed he bought it as surplus in 1920. My mother inherited it 1966 upon his passing and even though it was a .38 Long Colt revolver along with it were 2 boxes of red & green Remington-UMC .38 Special 158gr RNL and one blue & yellow box of Peters 158gr RNL.
Also with it was a grocery bag containing over 6000 fired .38 special cases, of every headstamp imaginable, including LOTS of military, many of the others were balloonhead cases headstamped W.R.A. There were also around a thousand .38 Long Colt and .38 Short Colt. It seems that Grampa said he had kept every round he had ever fired in it.

My father used it to stop a robbery in 1974.

I know that I personally put several hundred, standard .38 Specials through it in the 1970s with nary a hitch. It still locked up tight when I finally sold it in 1996.

Those old Colt's & Smith's were built to last.


Recalling all of this has reminded me of a question.
Mike maybe you can answer this...
Why were .38 Short Colt casings made by Remington so much shorter than the ones made by Winchester?

[Mike Irwin]

Supica & Nahaus list the 1899 as being available in .38 Long Colt, .32-20, and .38 Special.

Jinks confirms that, or at least seems to...

"The introduction of the .38 Military & Police occurred in 1899 and was referred to as the Model of 1899. It was produced in two calibers, the .32 Winchester center fire (.32/20) and the .38 S&W Special."

Obviously, Jinks errs in not mentioning the .38 Long Colt, but it was definitely available in .38 Colt -- the United States Navy took 1,000, and the Army took 1,000 a year later.

I've seen two 1899s marked as being specifically for the .38 Spl. cartridge, and both well within the 1899s serial number range.

As for the .38 Short Colt casing, I don't think I've ever seen one by Remington, so I can't answer that question...

[BluesBear]

I agree with your presumption Mike,

When I first got into this hobby back in the dark ages (1960s) I recall learning that the .38 Special was one of the last (and best) cartridges of the 19th Century.

I don't have the Jinks book handy right now, as most of my library is still in storage from the last move, but the mere fact that the FMHE model was offered in .38 Special means it HAD to predate 1902.

[Old Fuff]

The barrels on those first 1899 .38 Hand Ejector models were marked:

"38 S&W SPECIAL ctg." and "38 SPECIAL & U.S. SERVICE ctg." The "service cartridge" was the .38 Long Colt. It might be said that the .38 Special was the magnum of that day, as it was more powerful then the service cartridge, while the lesser round could be chambered and fired in the S&W revolver.

While it is sometimes done, it is recommended that .38 Special cartridges not be fired in the older Colt 1889 Navy and 1892/1903 New Army revolvers chambered for the .38 Long.

[Mike Irwin]

The two I've seen in years past had, IIRC, the "38 SPECIAL & U.S. SERVICE ctg." marking.

I think why some of the confusion exists is that the .38 Spl. cartridge may not have been official announced to the public until the 1902 models came out.

When I was out of a permanent job and working at the gunshop part time back in 1994 I salivated MIGHTILY over a 6" Model of 1899 that came in. I don't recall the price, but I do remember that it was a decent price. Condition wasn't great, but hey...

The person who bought it is a collector I know, so at least it got a good home.

[Jim K]

Since the .38 Colt (long or short) has the same diameter as the .38 Special, that marking was only a bit of salesmanship to let people (especially military people) know that the new S&W could fire the "service cartridge", aka the .38 Long Colt (but S&W would not use that dirty word) as well as the new .38 Special.

Sort of like marking a revolver ".357 Magnum or .38 Special".

There are some sales of .38 LC to people who have .38 Special revolvers but who want a lighter load and don't reload.

Jim

[Standing Wolf]

I'm surprised the advertisement doesn't include the requisite "L.N.I.B."

[BluesBear]

L.N.I.B.

Lost Nickle In Blotches

[Mike Irwin]

Jim,

If I understand correctly some of the things I've read, though, the first several thousand 1899s were only marked as being suitable for use with the .38 Long Colt, as the .38 Spl. wasn't quite finalized yet.

I don't know if that's true or not, but it's what I've read.

[Johnny Guest]

The marking, "38 SPECIAL & U.S. SERVICE ctg." is interesting. Never thought of it as being two different (.38 Spl and .38 Long Colt.)

I have a Colt New Service marked .44 Special and Russian. That's the only other one of which I'm aware. (In a revolver, that is. Many rimfire rifles used to be marked, ".22 S-L-LR," or some variation of same. :)

Best,
Johnny

[Mike Irwin]

Johnny,


A New Service in .44 Spl?

Hum....

Not too many of those were made, were there?

[Matt G]

And Mike, his is so very sweet. Tricked out with mirrored front sight illuminator, stag handles, and a delicious trigger, it's just plain kewl. :)

[Matt G]

Funny thing-- I've handled that very .38 Hand Ejector at T&Sons. I bought some flashlight batteries and a new bulb at T&Sons today, and shopped .375 bullets. :)