[OneShot]

Myself and two of my friends each recently bought brand new Springfield M1A's. Two were in Camo, the one I bought was in all black. In our glorious state of California with taxes, they ran roughly $1300 each.

Two of us took them out to the range together and fired about 200 rounds each. All of a sudden when my buddy was running through a mag at a slow rate of fire, his M1a stopped functioning, and seemed to lock up, jamming the bolt in the rearward position. We couldn't seem to budge it at the range so he took it back to the shop. At the shop, the gun was disassembled and literally fell apart right there on the counter. The bolt and most of the other internals simply fell out. I was not present for this but was later told by the shop owner that he had never seen one just fall apart like that.

Needless to say, the gun had to go back to Springfield, with a VERY upset owner impatiently waiting for it. I am now very concerned about my new VERY expensive rifle holding up, although it has continued to function perfectly through another 200 rounds. Is it possible that he just got a lemon? Is this common with Springfield M1A's?

It just kind of sucks that in my friends words "It just made me sick that it had to go back" I've gotta be honest, I don't really feel too good about it either--Oneshot:confused:

[Kaylee]

sounds like the oprod jumped the track, yes? Was he pulling back on it manually at the time, or did it actually happen during the firing cycle?

[dave3006]

American quality control at it's best. I know lots of people who are happy with their M1As. However, there are plenty of people who are not. For what they charge (overcharge) for this rifle, it should be flawless.

Bad management.

[Molon Labe]

So Fred convinced you to buy an M1A, eh?

An FFL holder in Youngstown told me that Springfield started using imported (and thus cheaply made) parts in their M1A’s about four years ago. According to the FFL, there are rumors that some of these parts do not meet spec. It was his opinion that older M1A’s (which are made with 100% U.S.-made components) are of higher quality.

Again, this is just what he told me. Perhaps someone else can provide the straight dope on this.

[HankL]

OneShot, Is there any way you could help us with this? the gun was disassembled and literally fell apart right there on the counter. The bolt and most of the other internals simply fell out.
Pull the trigger group out. Did it fall apart? Take the action out of the stock and then??? If something goes wrong at this point the recoil spring is not going to let anything fall on the counter.
Not trying to beat on you but trying to figure out what happened.
I still have 3 of those dinasours and reload for them, just wanting to stay current.

[SodaPop]

I hear about things like this just about every other day.


Its been giving me the heebee geebees.:uhoh:

[Andrew Wyatt]

it's probably because they used commercial .308 ammo that was not loaded to specs. that'll make the oprod jump the track in short order.

[Sven]

That's why (in part) I chose to build my own from the rear-lugged receiver up.

;)

[4v50 Gary]

Ammunition needs to be mil-spec and not commercial. For optimal efficiency and safety, keep it within mil-spec. As for the op-rod, I learned to use the right hand to pull it back (from underneath and not overhand).

Second, I wonder if the trigger group was really locked in or could it have been brushed against something causing the trigger guard to unlock?

[OneShot]

Give us a little credit guys....We were using the correct ammo....

It did appear that the op rod had jumped the track, it was bent out to the side of the stock. From what I gather, the bolt and the cover that slides up to cover the breech both fell out of the reciever. Like I stated, I was not there when it was taken apart. All I can tell you is that the op rod was bent out from the side of the stock and everything else was jammed back into the reciever.

I totally agree that for what they are getting for these things that they should be checked over a little better before shipping. In California it is about the only mag fed , large caliber semi that we can purchase (except for A couple of Rugers) so we are stuck paying their price.

Overall, I have kind of mixed emotions when it comes to mine. In some ways it just feels like it is kind of cheaply made. It's hard to put my finger on it, it just feels kinda loose in a way.

I am not trying to bash Springfield here, but instead, trying to give an account of what happened in case it happens to others.

By the way, I am not a newbie to shooting, I've been at it over 20 years now and make Damn sure I'm using the correct ammo and such before firing a gun of any type---Oneshot

[Skunkabilly]

Yeah, not much choice for us in California. I had different problems with mine.

[twoblink]

I love mine, but the QA is not that great..

A $1500 SKS as Skunk calls it..

[Kevlarman]

Eep. Sorry to hear about everyone's problems. Pretty glad I got a Garand instead!

[Steve Smith]

If the ammo used has an incorrect burn rate, the rifle will bend the op rod. The Marine Highpower team used to have a barrel of op rods that they took to Perry because they pushed the guns so hard. If a gun went down a Private would run a new op rod out before the alibili string.

When the op rod bends, it can turn downwards, and that is how it disengages from the bolt...then the bolt could come out (fall out). This isn't nearly the catastrophe that it is being made out to be. #1 I DO suspect the type of ammo (was it hot .308?), #2 I suspect that the op rod bolt recess might have been oversized, and #3 it is possible that the op rod was bad. None of these are bad enough to swear off the gun or design. Lifetime warranty means something, send it back and get a new op rod and bolt. Next time use 7.62x51 ammo.

[Balog]

I'd suggest a trip over to www.battlerifles.com , a board dedicated to the M1A/M14.

[joe4702]

I have a 10 year old walnut-stocked M1A that is tight and well-made. Seems like a lot of products these days just don't have the level of fit & finish they should.

I had to return a brand-new Thompson Center Hawken rifle and a S&W 625, both due to very obvious cosmetic defects that should have never gotten past QC. These are not cheap, low-end guns and are both made in the USA. Unfortunately, that phrase is quickly losing it's positive connotation with me.

[Omaha-BeenGlockin]

Wasn't much impressed with my Springfield either---although it didn't blow up or fall apart----took if out for one range session and promptly traded it-------wasn't impressed and it wasn't for me. See Ya!!!!

[OneShot]

Steve Smith, Mod or not, I do not appreciate your tone or Suspitions of the ammo we used.

The ammo used was the same Port, 7.62x51, 147 gr that everybody else has been shooting. Do you want pics? I can supply them of the ammo, being You "Suspect" That I am LYING about it for some strange reason.

Not a big deal? BS, it was a very expensive new rifle that experienced a major failure of some sort. I have several issues with my own M1A. For instance the finish SUCKS! don't dare let the barrel even rub up against anything it will instantly scratch, mine has.

I'm sorry to take this tone, but don''t even suggest that I am making this up or lying about the ammo used.

But then again,What the hell do I know?, I only spent 8 years in the US Army as an MP , shooting everything I could get my hands on. Nevermind that I've got a collection of over 30 handguns and now 11 rifles. Maybe you "Suspect" that this isn't true so maybe I should post pics of my collection and my discharge along with my certificates from shooting in the post generals matches....... I found your post personally insulting--Oneshot

[Steve Smith]

I wasn't trying to insult you, but this is the first time you actually told us what ammo was used. All you said last time was "Give us a little credit guys....We were using the correct ammo...." How do we know that? This time you told us something valuable. Now I don't have to suspect the ammo. You had a bad op-rod. So be it. This is life with an M1A or M14 form time to time. Repair is free.

I have never had a gun that didn't scratch. If you are talking about thestock, this is well documented here and other places. Perhaps you should have researched it first. All SA does is take a $4 (that's four dollar!) USGI synthetic stock and paint it black or cammo. Only the wooden stocked models or the ones with McMillan stocks are really "durable" in that sense.


I note that both of your posts have had a very irritable tone to them.


I don't ever recall doubting your service record.

[OneShot]

Yep that's all I did, stand at the front gate and check ID's.....


You seriously need to get a life... I hope the rest of the veterans here are insulted by your last post as well--Oneshot

[Steve Smith]

I cleaned it up for ya...but there's more there now, so please re-read it.


I wouldn't say it if I weren't a vet myself. Passed by you guys every day.

Now, I may have a technical and kurt approach, but I wouldn't be talking to you if I didn't have info to give. What you guys ran into wasn't the end of your enjoyment with that rifle...just get it fixed and hit the range again.

[OneShot]

Oh, I see, you edited it before everybody was able to read it....

In your original post it read that "You never doubted my ability to stand at a front gate and check Id's." Yep that's right, I read it right after you posted it, what a load of crap.

Irritable? Damn right I'm irritable, my a good friend is out a bunch of cash and a rifle.--Oneshot

[Steve Smith]

That's not exactly what I said, but close... I decided to HOLD MY TONGUE and edited it...I am human too. FWIW, I edited that because what I said shoudn't have been said, not because I "didn't want anyone to see it." Now, if you want to take this farther, take it to PM. Let's stick to the topic.


How is your friend out of a bunch of cash and a rifle?

[glockenstein]

I'm sorry to hear that. I have 2 M1A's: one with all USGI parts except the barrel and one with no USGI parts except the barrel; and they are both flawless. Thats my favorite rifle platform.

[Art Eatman]

'Scuse me for butting in, but I'm gonna repeat something I've often said before:

We don't have body language and facial expressions to help convey meanings. All we have is the "typewriter".

So, when in doubt, cut slack! It could be that the words didn't come out quite like somebody meant, and they're not trying to be insulting. Even if it's on the harsh side, it might well have not been meant to be arrogant. We ain't eggzackly literary giants around here, with Pulitzer Prizes for fine writing.

(Some BS is obvious, of course. I'm not talking about name-calling.)

Anyhow, lets all hold our cool...

:), Art

[Jim K]

Hi, One Shot,

If all is cool now, I would appreciate a clarification. You say "the bolt and the cover that slides up to cover the breech both fell out of the reciever".

I don't know of any cover on the M14/M1A; there is just the op rod and the bolt. The op rod can jump track, though it shouldn't happen unless something is not made quite right. Unlike the M14, the op rod on the M1A uses the same type of engagement that the M1 rifle uses, certainly a proven design.

Jim

[MarineTech]

OK, let's check a few things here.

All of the Springfields I have seen come through the local gunshop lately have all had extremely tightly fit op rods to the point that they had to be lightly pried from the track for removal.

So, two questions.

1) Was the rifle cleaned and lubed correctly before going to the range? Were the appropriated areas, including the bolt roller, greased? That's greased, not oiled.

2) If the rifle was cleaned and lubed correctly, was it reassembled correctly? Was the bolt firmly engaged in the op rod and was the op rod firmly seated in the track?

There are quite a few possibilities here that could cause the issue, but it really sounds like it was not lubed correctly.

[ScottsGT]

I've owned my M1a for two years, and for the life of me, I CANNOT get the Op-rod to come off! I refuse to pry on it, I guess I need to shoot it more to loosen it up! :confused:

[Steve Smith]

The common method to getting a SA op rod off is to tape the blade of a wide standard screwdriver, pull the op rod back to where it should disengage form the bolt, insert the screwdriver from the top, and lightly pry while you pull out and down on the end of the op rod tab. Should come out easily.

Oneshot, we still have questions. Let's work on this. Jim's comment rings true too, and I thought of that when I first read the thread...what cover?

[BigG]

I beleive Oneshot is speaking of the cam track on the op-rod. It covers the bolt lug and roller.

[HankL]

One Shot, Is there any way you could get the shop owner to describe more specifically about the falling apart and what he saw? Was the connector lock still in one piece? Was the recoil spring quide a N.M. version that had a bad weld and come apart?
It is my feeling that everyone here is trying to help figure out what could have gone wrong with your friends rifle and assure you that it's fine for you to continue enjoy shooting yours.
In regards to the finish on your rifle. Is it parkerized? If so it will show a mark easily until you get some oil worked into it.
Let us know what Springfield had to say.
Best Regards

[Steve Smith]

Hank, I think that the scratching he was talking about was on the stock, which is a well documented problem with the SA synthetic stocks. Not many ways to fix it either, as I have tried to paint them back in the past and they always flake easily. A stock finished like Fred's or Karsten's is about the only way to do it...and I don't know what they do. It is certainly not "spray them with a spray can" which is essentially what SA does.

[Joe Demko]

Is the fiberglass used in those rifle stocks similar to what you see in automotive use? Has anybody tried refinishing one using automotive primer and paint?

[HankL]

Hmm, Springfield must not be using Testors model spray like us pros do.:D
Scratches actually add to the appearance of the cammo job I did on one of mine!

[Grump]

I have several issues with my own M1A. For instance the finish SUCKS! don't dare let the barrel even rub up against anything it will instantly scratch, mine has.

Ah, the perils of NEW parkerizing. IME, it's a bit "fluffy" and the top portion both rubs off, leaving whitish marks, and picks up stuff it rubs on, again leaving whitish marks.

Rub hard with your lightly oiled patches until it smoothes out. Or just paint it with epoxy like many currenty militaries do with their new-production rifles.

IF you're talking about scratching down to bare metal, you really have QC issues and deserve swift and free corrective action.

Let's read the posts better before we comment. I cannot believe that there is so much discussion of the stock scratching, when our friend is talking about the barrel.

And on the op rod, I have to pull mine UP and out, not down, to dismount it from the receiver. Are we all getting dyslexic here, or do I have a unique rifle? Correct op-rod tension in the rifle will be feather-light pressure in and DOWN in the receiver track. That prevents track-jumping during the firing cycle.

[Jon Coppenbarger]

;

[Kestrel]

Grumpy,

Great info. What kind of epoxy are these militaries painting their guns with? Is it literally a paint that has epoxy in it or a special paintable epoxy?

Thanks,
Steve

[Grump]

AFIK, it's a more or less "regular" epoxy paint, not a two-part epoxy plastic like JB Weld (terribly brittle stuff, IME, so I developed a habit of adding chopped nylon to it for structural parts).

Whatever specific products the militaries use, they are quite resistant to oils and solvents, they resist chipping quite well, and dry harder than good old household latex paints.

Don't some U.S. military arms have epoxy paint over parkerizing? I've never held/fired a MINIMI or whatever the SAW is made from.... Any ex-military armorers on the Board who can tell us if/what paint cans the G.I.s use for arsenal refinishing, if it is done with paint on any arms yet?

Get me the right paint and I'll coat all my parkerized guns. The finish is really much better and much tougher than anything short of hard chrome, titanium nitride, or nickel plating (which I also like pretty well)..

[Bainx]

Me thinks dave3006 nailed it. Soon, these things will be manufactured in Mexico by slave labor. It is the way of the world, corporate world that is! Maximize profits. Let's watch......

Any takers?

[HankL]

One thing is for sure, the supply of U.S.G.I. parts is drying up fast. The days of getting up with the High Power boys in your club and coming up with all the parts you needed to build a nice rifle less a $200 Springfield receiver are over.
Some folks are making receivers some quite good some not. The only other parts being made are the ones not available on the surplus market.
In the great scheme of things the M-14 type rifle is a dying breed. Damned, I can't beleive I just said that! Springfield and The Man's Who's Name We Will Never Speak are about the only folks that I can think of who would put any effort at all into getting Mil Spec. parts made in today's world.
Heck, I saw a High Power boy scrounging for a stripper clip guide for a M1A just the other day :D
Sorry for my ramblings, an old friend passed away last Saturday and I'm feeling a little maudlin. As a reward for sitting through my post you are all welcome to view a $525 M21 complete with ART II scope, Springfield receiver and TRW heavy match barrel.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid86/pf7f5e90fea1c6f6af138eda8fce19e92/fab1b269.jpg
and then open another thread to talk about the wear and tear, bad paint job, busy background etc.
HankL, Sippin a few too many early this evening.

[Sven]

fear not

Some new players are emerging.

I've heard good things about, for example, Sadlak Industries:

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

http://www.sadlak.com/prod-rifle.htm

Sadlak Industries Introduces Two New M14/M1A Rifle Parts

New quality titanium/steel scope mounts and operating rod hollow spring guides available from Sadlak Industries LLC. Both products are based on the Brookfield design but with several unique features.

These parts have recently been evaluated by the Marine Corp. Weapons Training Battalion in Quantico, VA. The commanding officer, SSgt Raymond A. Conrad, wrote, "Both pieces showed a good finished product. The spring guide fit our springs and positively held the magazines. The overall tolerances of the scope rail were good and we did not have a problem adjusting to zero."


http://www.sadlak.com/images/prod-r3.jpg

TITANIUM & STEEL SCOPE MOUNTS:

Our titanium scope mounts are made from an aerospace quality hot-forged billet, not from a casting. Compared to steel, there is approximately a 35% reduction in weight. It has been heat treated to a hardness of 34 Rockwell C (Rc), prior to being surface coated with a black nitride to a depth of .0002". This coating increases the surface hardness to approximately 85 Rc, making it more corrosive and abrasive resistant. The steel mounts are made from 4140 bar stock with a hardness of 28/32 Rockwell with the same black nitride finish.

The dovetail insert is low carbon steel. The cam washer and hex screw are made from 4140 tool steel and heat treated to 38/40 Rc. All machined components have the same black nitride finish.



OPERATING ROD SPRING GUIDE:
The spring guides are a unique lightweight, hollow version of the Brookfield design and is approximately 23% lighter (BPT=62.7grams, Sadlak=48.6grams). It is made of 8620 tool steel and case hardened to 40/45 Rc with a Mil. Spec. manganese phosphate finish. This design has been field tested in national matches by Dave Ferrante of Heart Mountain Precision Machining, a gunsmith and distinguished high-power competitor (email: crookedbrookfarm@yahoo.com). Approximately 3000 rounds have been fired from the match rifle using our spring guide with no appreciable wear on the tab or shaft. Mr. Ferrante states, "It's the finest quality guide out there".

This lightweight, hollow spring guide is a limited production item. It will be replaced in the future by a solid version.


PRICING:

M14/M1A Products
1-2pcs 3-9pcs 10+
Spring Guide, Hollow (*) $38.50 $34.00 call
Spring Guide, Solid $38.50 $34.00 call
Scope Mount, Titanium $360.00 $342.00 call
Scope Mount, Steel $195.00 $185.25 call
Piston with Tin Code call call call



-=-=-=-

Pricey, but a good sign to see manufacturers supporting the platform.

That said, can't get enough USGI parts - a hearty amen to that.

[kentucky bucky]

It makes me sick to hear something like that, when my $100.00 SKS I bought NIB has never failed. It's like a black eye on an American icon. For what they cost Springfield should drive to the range and fix it on the spot!!!!

[surfinUSA]

M14/M1A, nice rifles but basically just a footnote of the more historically significant Garand.

The real cure to this problem has only 3 letters - FAL. DSA has a California legal model, fixed mag, top loading with strippers.

There is no reason to keep an expensive gun you have no faith in. Doesn't matter what the cause is, (bad op rods, no lube, wrong ammo, Everybody and their mother works but yours, etc.), if you can't trust it get rid of it.

[WonderNine]

I love mine, but the QA is not that great..

A $1500 SKS as Skunk calls it..

Only problem with that analogy is that my father's $150 unissued Yugo SKS is just about perfect in fit and function and has been flawless so far.

Come to think of it, that's a real big problem with Skunk's analogy. :neener:

[Jim K]

We are getting off the track here, and have not heard from One Shot, who experienced the problem.

Actually my first thought was that the rifle was an FAL, which does have a cover, and which can just about fall apart in disassembly. But I do not think an FAL can be sold in CA. So I am still puzzled and still would like more info.

It is surprising that one rather confused report, from someone obviously inexperienced with those rifles, has caused so many people to pronounce judgement on both Springfield and American products in general. I suggest just cooling off and waiting for more info. If it is not forthcoming, we can conclude that the "welcome" given One Shot caused him to rethink posing his questions here.

Jim

[OneShot]

Well guys what actually happened is that I am right in the middle of closing on a new home that I am buying and have not been able to get around to replying here.

From talking to my friend and from what I saw at the range, it would appear that the op rod may have indeed jumped out of the track or simply jammed up and bent. When I examined the rifle right after it occured, the op rod was bent out from the side of the reciever and evrything else was tightly jammed back. It would seem to me that if this happened with enough force, it could have damaged other componets perhaps breaking other items in the process. The rifle was cleaned and greased properly before firing.

From his description of it being disassembled at the shop, the bolt, cover and a few other minor bits a nd pieces actually fell out of the reciever when they removed the trigger group and reciever from the stock. He stressed to me that he is no expert on M1A's and was not sure of exactly what fell onto the counter. I will contact the shop owner and try to find out EXACTLY what fell out.

The finish problems that I'm haveing are related to the barrel and sight area. The black sprayed on paint or powder coating seems to VERY easily scratch down to the bare metal like the coating wasn't properly cured, it does indeed seem powderish in nature. I will probably choose to re paint it myself then to send it back to the factory. We also had to send the other camo stock (this is the third rifle that was purchased) Back to Springfield because a large patch of camo had flaked off during shipment. They gladly said that they would exchange the stock for a new one.

So out of three brand new M1A's, we have had issues with all of them, mine and the third one being very minor so far. It also seems that in other forums such as Battlerifles .com that the Springfield's are not considered the best buy for the money. There was just a poll posted there that clearly shows this.

Please keep in mind here that I am not trying to BASH Springfield. I am just trying to make others aware of my problems before they spend their hard earned cash on an M1A that they maybe look around at other manufacturers such as Smith Ent, or Fulton Armory. I have a Springfield XD 9mm pistol that I am TOTALLY happy with.

I have very thick skin, so I will not let one argument drive me away.

Thanks for all the replies. --Oneshot

[OneShot]

By the way, Here's a shot of just what's lying around here in the cabinet. Most of my Smith collection is in my Pop's double safe until I can get into the new house.--Oneshot

[Steve Smith]

Uncool. Op rod this is always a possibility due to the design, but they will normally last the life of the gun unless there is a goof with load or just a bad rod. Still amazed by "parts falling out." I can't imagine anything that would fall out, but let us know. Metal finish problems is very bad, and if I were you I would get them to refinish it and perhaps get them to switch it for a wood stock or get your own McMillan. I have ha denough problems with Springfield in the past that the Vice President was the only person I would talk to for a few weeks. Stay on them and you will get a good gun.

[Andrew Wyatt]

it's entirely possible for the bolt to fall out of the gun if it gets jiggled just right while you remove the oprod and the gun is upside down. perhaps that's what happened.

[Steve Smith]

Could be...that's what I was saying in my first post on this thread.

[alcmaeon]

Shooting NATO surplus ammo (port) , on round 109 of my brand new MIA standard the bolt popped apart. This was a year ago. I shot, the round went off like it should have-I hit the target, the recoil and report were all normal. However I caught a fast movement shooting upwards from the bolt When I looked at the bolt it had slammed forward, chambering the next round but was very off track. It took a hefty pull to get the bolt back, and when I did it all fell apart. the fast movement upwards was a little part (don't know its name) of the bolt . I found it on the ground in front of the shooting bench. I had cleaned and lubed it as it should have been (by the book). It was Nato spec ammo, and I had not abused the rifle at all.

I sent it back to Springfield, who even paid for the shipping (though I had to ask twice). They put in a new bolt, and since than I have put 3000+ rounds thru it without a hitch. They did tell me that they have no GI bolts left. So I got another Springfield bolt. I had no complaints about the customer service.

$1500 SKS? Maybe. there is NO reason a $1300 (what I paid) rifle should have something silly like the the bolt falling apart happen to it ever, much less after only 100 odd rounds. But no stock SKS I have shot (and I own 4 of them) can shoot anywhere as accurate as my stock M1A. Nor is the 7.62x39 at all in a class with the 7.62x51. I like my Garand, and living in Cali, I have few other choices than the M1A (Hakim, FN49, Rasheed, etc). Ahh well,

[JeepDriver]

I've only had my M1A for a couple months now but after 800+ rounds it's been perfect!

I'd be rather upset if my op rod or bolt popped out. The light weight of the op rod was one of hte first things I noticed the first time I tore down my rifle. I'm considering buying a couple extra bolts and op rods after reading about some of hte possible problems

[No4Mk1*]

I have examined 2 M1A's and found a difference in the Op-rod dissasembly cutout in the receiver.

# 129,XXX Cutout is 12mm in length
# 158,XXX Cutout is 11mm in length.
Check your rifle.

Maybe they have fixed the "automatic op-rod dissasembly feature" which has been troubling some of you guys.

Also, there is mention of lubrication, but I feel the M1A should be able to function dry as that is what the M14 manual says to do in sandy environments.

Also it would be nice for people who have expierienced the bolt related malfunctions to post rifle serial numbers to see if this problem has been fixed.
I hope Springfield is learning from their mistakes and making appropriate design changes.

One question for OneShot if you are still around...
When you say "The Op rod was bent," do you mean...

1. The op rod was bent.
or
2. The op rod was not bent but was disengaged from it's track and at an unusual angle.