Hornady Critical Defense.....


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SSN Vet
August 27, 2009, 01:14 PM
picked up a box of 9mm Luger 115 gr last week, not knowing much about it. But after several tries to find Remington 124 gr. Golden Saber I figured I would give the Hornady a try.

Was surprised to see the article in the latest issue of American Rifleman comparing Hornady Critical Defense to the new Winchester Supreme Elite.

What interested me was that Hornady seems to have deliberately taken a different direction and is not designing to the rigorous FBI tech. requirements, but rather to the concealed carry personal defense crowd.

The big difference being penetration... and the FBI requirements to penetrate cover materials (two plates of sheet metal, two layers of 1/2" sheet rock, 1/4" safety glass, etc...) and then still go through heavy clothing and achieve a minimum penetration of 12" into the ballistic gelatin.

If you're in a gun fight and with a BG and it is your job/duty to bring the perp. down, then all of this is very desirable.

But for Joe Citizen seeking concealed carry for personal defense, these requirements could actually cause more of a problem than a benefit (at least in my small mind) where over penetration and collateral damage is definitely a concern. Furthermore, Joe Citizen is likely going to have a difficult time justifying the use of force when the threat is hiding behind wall, or driving away in a car.

Hornady seems to realize that more isn't always better. And that with the latest in hollow point design, getting complete expansion (even when shooting through heavy clothing) and retaining mass is achievable with less mass and less pressure (i.e. recoil and muzzle flash).

Faster follow up shots that still get the personal defense job done and less risk of errant rounds causing damage to unseen targets sounds like a very good trade off for Joe Citizen.

Winchester's new round will surely keep them in the good graces of LEO agencies, and I'm glad they will have it available to them..... but I'm thinking that the Hornady is a better choice for me.

Any other thoughts or perspectives out there???

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glassman
August 27, 2009, 05:24 PM
Faster follow up shots that still get the personal defense job done

I use them in my 642 and the M64 in the night stand.

smallbore
August 27, 2009, 10:14 PM
Have recently switched to using them in in my S&W 642. Pleased with the penetration & expansion.

mljdeckard
August 27, 2009, 10:29 PM
As soon as they started advertising it I was suspicious. I don't think that clogged hollow-points failing to expand is a very common problem at all. And I very strongly doubt that CD deals with the problem any more consistently than my 230 gr HSTs. The very worst thing that can happen is I will have about the same effect as 230 gr hardball, which isn't really that bad.

A handgun is an emergency tool. If you are using it, it means you have been caught away from your rifle, using a tool that is already inferior to defend yourself. Now is the time you need it to do more than ever. You don't know if you will need to shoot through your car door or through your windshield. I don't want reduced ANYTHING in a handgun round.

Even if the likelihood of overpenetration is 'reduced' with CD ammo, it certainly isn't 'eliminated'. It can't change youe plan in any way. You still must assume it will overpenetrate, you still must fire until the threat is stopped, you run out of ammo, or the target disappears from view. The best way to reduce the risk of unintended victims is to end the fight as quickly as possible. This ammo doesn't change how I would do business in any way.

Ala Dan
August 28, 2009, 08:27 AM
I also use the Hornady CD ammo in my S&W 642 442, 60; and in my KEL-TEC P3AT
.380 ~! ;) :D

DMZ
August 28, 2009, 09:48 AM
I bought a box of 110 gr .38 Spl for my LCR and took to the range.

The first thing I noticed was how light the LCR was fully loaded.

The second thing I noticed was how nice they grouped. The POI is a bit low and left, but they proved to be very accurate.

The third thing I noticed was how quickly I could empty the gun. Very low recoil and blast = quick reacquisition of sight picture.

I went back and purchased a couple more boxes.

hardluk1
August 28, 2009, 10:12 AM
mljdecked Your 45 hard ball idea will get you killed. Just this month sshooting times ,i think had a article in it on a old shooting where the cops were shooting 45's with HB bullets and after shooting the BG several times he killed them. So I for one want a bullet that will dump it energy in side if at all possible and for small bore's the Hornady CD rounds so far all real test have showed they do just what they claim . Expand well threw clothing ever time.They don't load this round atleast not yet in the big bores and for a 380, 38,9mm it might be the best of what is out there . If you don't want to use it fine ,shoot what you want and go on. Oh this bullet was not designed to go through a laminated glass window but will go through side glass just fine. We, meaning the people that would use the CD ammo would not be carry'n a 45 it does matter if the bullet acts as a hard ball type round.

HexHead
August 28, 2009, 10:20 AM
I carry CD in my .380 and .38 and will switch from TAP in my 9mm when fall starts (or I can find it). I wish they'd come out with 230 gr. .45acp.
I'm currently using TAP in that and it's only available as +P.

As for the "FBI requirements", if a bullet over penetrates and hits innocent victims, the agent isn't going to get sued or likely go to jail. If it happens to us, we WILL.

NoleMan
August 28, 2009, 10:34 AM
Everything, for the most part, I've read has been positive. Having a non-hollowpoint reduces the chance of a FTF issue. The ammo also is very low recoil. It's a lot like shooting range ammo, which obviously helps with follow up shots. I like it.

CoRoMo
August 28, 2009, 10:34 AM
the article in the latest issue of American Rifleman comparing Hornady Critical Defense to the new Winchester Supreme Elite.

My take on the write-up was that Hornady gave in to their lawyers' panic and developed a politically correct line of self defense ammo. It soured me.

I'll check out the Win SE ammo, because they produced a cartridge that meets/exceeds each of the specific points I like in a defense round.

Just my 2

Gunfighter123
August 28, 2009, 10:37 AM
Even if the likelihood of overpenetration is 'reduced' with CD ammo, it certainly isn't 'eliminated'. It can't change youe plan in any way. You still must assume it will overpenetrate, you still must fire until the threat is stopped, you run out of ammo, or the target disappears from view. The best way to reduce the risk of unintended victims is to end the fight as quickly as possible. This ammo doesn't change how I would do business in any way.



I tend to agree with the above quote --- My "nightstand" gun is/was a Colt Gold Cup with a 8 rd. mag -- the first 6 rds. in the mag are older Win. Silvertips and the "top off" rounds are Glaser Safety Slugs -- my thinking is after two shots are fired , the BG will be seeking cover and the GSSs are not ment for penetration such as doors,couches,etc.

The Hornady CD-FTX sounds like a very good load -- in the AR issue they quote " Mr. Emary states the FTX technology provides 100 PERCENT reliable and consistent expansion etc" ---- not to argue BUT 100 PERCENT expansion etc. sound like some good marketing talk !!! Afterall , EVERY COMPANY SAYS that their latest product is "the best" just like they all said THEIR LAST PRODUCT was the best !!!

So for me , bottom line ---would I use/trust the Horn. FTX --- YES , after I tried some of my own "tests" with them.

Gunfighter123
August 28, 2009, 10:46 AM
mljdecked Your 45 hard ball idea will get you killed.

hardluk1 --- while I understand your above comment you would have to agree that "maybe thousands" of people shot with 230gr. Hardball died in WW1,WW2,Korea , Vietnam and on the streets of America.

mljdeckard
August 28, 2009, 11:49 AM
Get me killed? You do realize that your energy dump idea is BS, right? Handguns do not have enough energy to knock someone down.

A .45 that fails to expand is roughly the SAME diameter as a 9mm JHP that DOES. The real world difference a good bullet that expands and one that doesn't is negligible. I am much more worried about getting as many COM hits as I can than if they are 9mm, .45, JHP, or FMJ.

hardluk1
August 28, 2009, 04:11 PM
Gunfighter123 My point was for the people that don't have an interest in carry'n a large and heavy handgun a hardball is not the best or even a good choice to make a one shot kill or stopage with out suffering some exchange of gunfire. Now i know that nothing is a guaranty of a kill with one shot. This has happened on the street when leo's carried HB years back and the street thugs still do. Shoot aguy 6 times and a hospital might still patch the bum up today. Use a standard HP and it might kill him with one or two rounds ,use the CD and it will more than likely do it job with the same 1 or 2 rounds. Atleast the CD's work.

Mijeckard Read above . AND remeber for those of use that don't want to carry a 45, the honady CD ammo maybe one of the best choise out now.Of course with your thinking i should be able to doulbe tap 9mm HB and get go the same results. Just dumd. Atleast the CD's will expand and more than likely dump that energy and shock wave inside a target instead of most likely passing through like a hb with little tissue damage and not deleaver but part of its energy. Add i bit of drugs to some BG and he might not know he's even shot with HB. Thats is why guys get shot with hb rounds 4 to 6 times and get patched up at the hospital. Just watch some cop show on tv. Hardball heaven.If you hunt think of this. Shoot a deer with a .45 cal non-expanding bullet in the lungs and miss the heart and liver and you would expect to have to trail a deer till it bleeds out, right? Or come back hours later. If you then shot it with a smaller expandeing bullet that disrupts much tissue and makes a larger shock wave and stays inside which one do you think you will find sooner. Hardball ain't the same as a expanding bullet that stays inside even if it is larger of bore. Theres just no compairison to a 45 hb. Now if your big hp's work ,, all is great, right.Dam i know many cops that carry 380's as off duty guns and 38 sp. Most people that shoot a 9mm can double tap a 9 quicker than a 45 also. In our local shooting club one guy changed to a 9mm xd after 25 years of 45 in a 1911 and can't believe how much quicker he can get shots on target on the double tap targets. Hay shoot what you want just don't try to explane how a damd 45 hb is better than 9mm CD, that will expand.

searcher451
August 28, 2009, 04:44 PM
I've heard a couple of positive comments about the Hornady 9mm ammo from folks on the Walther Forums. I'd love to give some a try in my P99C, but I can't locate any locally and haven't yet placed an online order for some. Can anyone provide a recommendation for an online site that has it in stock at a reasonable price? Thanks in advance.

SwampWolf
August 28, 2009, 04:54 PM
and less risk of errant rounds causing damage to unseen targets sounds like a very good trade off for Joe Citizen.

An "errant" round is still going to travel to places you may not want it to, irregardless of bullet configuration or type.

SwampWolf
August 28, 2009, 05:06 PM
Get me killed? You do realize that your energy dump idea is BS, right? Handguns do not have enough energy to knock someone down.

A .45 that fails to expand is roughly the SAME diameter as a 9mm JHP that DOES. The real world difference a good bullet that expands and one that doesn't is negligible. I am much more worried about getting as many COM hits as I can than if they are 9mm, .45, JHP, or FMJ.

Hard to argue with this assessment. Not to mention the fact that no hp bullet I'm aware of performs any better in an auto in terms of feeding reliably and many may not do as well.

mljdeckard
August 28, 2009, 05:13 PM
hardluk--

You have a LOT of learning to do. The bulk of what you said is pure gibberish, besides the spelling errors.

donato
August 28, 2009, 06:08 PM
Please have a good debate without attacking someones grammar or spelling. That is a childish ploy.

Just one thought: In most cases, I doubt the over penetration factor/debate is of any significance. In a real life shootout, most of us would be spraying bullets all over the place and most would not be hitting the target. Hope there are no innocent folks standing around because they probably wouldn't need to worry about over penetration - the missed target bullets would be the real problem.

okespe04
August 28, 2009, 06:09 PM
I keep hornady critical defense in my Ruger lcp and my G19. I'm pretty sure it will do the job and it cycles well in both guns.

With all the ammo debates out there I tend to not be very picky. As long as the ammo is marketed for personal defense and it cycles in my gun its good enough for me.

The Wiry Irishman
August 28, 2009, 06:48 PM
hadluk1 - You seem to be confusing the effects of shot placement with bullet expansion. Stopping a person quickly is much more a function of where you hit them, not what you hit them with. Barring a psychological reaction, a person can continue functioning from minutes to hours with a hole in something that's not their central nervous system. I've even seen a news story about a shooting victim getting about thirty seconds of vigorous activity with a bullet in his heart. Its shot placement, or lack thereof, that's leading to people with 6 bullet wounds living like you mentioned.

So your key to stopping is hitting a CNS or other area that is likely to quickly stop a person. How do hollow points help you do this? The shockwave you talk about won't help, as handgun bullets simply do not travel fast enough to have this effect. They do get bigger. A good .45 HP will expand up to around .75 or so. That means the bullet will now be capable of of hitting things up to an additional .15" from its point of impact. Not really much of an aid to hitting one of those key areas.

HPs do two things: First, they increase the likelihood that the projectile will remain inside its target or exit with a lower velocity, thus decreasing the chance of unwanted collateral damage. Second, they get expand and develop sharp, jagged edges that make a slightly larger wound channel and do slightly more tissue damage. That's it. They won't stop somebody faster if you don't put them in the right place, they just give you a little extra advantage when you do hit something critical. They're not magic, and they certainly won't make the difference between a stop and prolonged gunfight. Its the shooter that does that, not the equipment.

donato
August 28, 2009, 06:59 PM
OK. So clarify your point again for me. Is it hardball or is it hollow point that is best for use in a defensive mode (assuming the same caliber)?

DBR
August 28, 2009, 07:06 PM
I doubt the Hornady Critical Defense is as effective or expands as reliably as Corbon DPX. Less expensive maybe?

donato
August 28, 2009, 07:20 PM
I doubt the Hornady Critical Defense is as effective or expands as reliably as Corbon DPX. Less expensive maybe?

But that is a very subjective statement. You're personal doubts are not facts. This is kind of what started this thread off on the wrong foot back around post #4 when mjdeckard stated that he strongly doubted CD dealt with clogged hollow points any more effectively than his HSTs. Well, just 'cause he strongly doubts, doesn't make it so. Statements like that are why he probably got hardluk so riled up.

swmp9jrm
August 28, 2009, 07:41 PM
I use the Hornady CD in my Taurus PT-709. The conceal guns seem to like the size and shape of this round. Still use 124 gr +P HSTs in my M&P9FS. I just ordered some of the Winchester PDX-1s in 9mm and .45ACP.

bradfromearth
August 28, 2009, 07:44 PM
Yea I bought a bunch of it in 9mm. The recoil is a tad harsher than dry fire. Personally they dont expand enough for me. I am saving the rest for the day my wife decised to learn to shoot. I dont want to scare her off or anything.

check this out... http://www.goldenloki.com/ammo/gel/9mm/gel9.htm this was thru two layers of denim. Look at the expansion or lack of. It is rounds like this that give the 9 a bad rap..

swmp9jrm
August 28, 2009, 07:50 PM
searcher451 Can anyone provide a recommendation for an online site that has it in stock at a reasonable price? Thanks in advance.

Searcher451: Ammunition to Go is where I just picked up my 9mm Critical Defense. They had them in stock and I had them in just a few days. Here's the link: http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/product_info.php/cPath/23_61_119/products_id/2923

donato
August 28, 2009, 07:58 PM
bradfromearth,

Do you by any chance have similar test/expansion data on the regular Hornady JHP/XTP?

DBR
August 28, 2009, 08:04 PM
donato:

I raise my doubts to encourage others to investigate for themselves. My doubts are not unfounded or uninformed.

donato
August 28, 2009, 08:14 PM
BTW, just picked this up on another forum. The November issue of Combat Hanguns supposedly has a review of the Hornady CD ammo. "They" say it got good reviews based on some outside testing. May be worth a look - I haven't seen it yet.

mljdeckard
August 28, 2009, 10:14 PM
The reason I phrased it the way I did was because if I had said; "Your post doesn't make any sense", it would have sounded like I was blowing it off because of bad spelling. I understood the spelling just fine. I wanted to make sure he understood it WASN'T his spelling I was criticizing, it was his logic. that's why I said; "Besides the spelling".

Johnny Guest
August 29, 2009, 08:11 AM
It happens I prefer mustard over mayonnaise on my hamburgers. I'll listen politely while you tell me why you feel mayo is better, but I won't argue that you're WRONG in your preference. And, the two of us, being as pursuasive as possible, are unlikely to convince a long-time ketchup lover that he's in error. Also -- hard as it is to accept, some people don't care much for hamburgers at all.

Wouldn't it be silly for several adults to get 'way off into snide remarks and personal attacks about one anothers' favored luncheon sandwiches?

An exchange of ideas is fine. Submit information for consideration. Be courteous to the other participants in the discussion. But please, don't feel personally diminished if YOUR priceless opinion is not accepted as the final word as to Ford versus Chevrolet, Glock vs. Colt, or Remington over Speer.

Isn't it nice that that we HAVE a range of choices in motor vehicles, firearms, and ammunition types? The more squabbling we do amongst ourselves, the easier it can be for others to find an excuse to restrict our selections. Please remember, we're all in this together.

Johnny Guest
THR Staff

mljdeckard
August 29, 2009, 09:06 AM
All I mean to say is that I can't see how this ammo gives anyone any practical advantage over any other premium JHP ammo.

nelson133
August 29, 2009, 09:14 AM
While I don't question the utility of hollow points in 9mm or .40 or other higher velocity pistol cartridges, I don't believe a .45acp from a 3&1/2 inch barrel is going to have enough velocity expand any hollow point on the market. Hard ball feeds more reliably than hollow point in the compact 1911s and is my choice.

hardluk1
August 29, 2009, 10:05 AM
dbr I like a barnes X for hunting and have used them in rifles and pistol over the years. Just at this point ,with bullets not working the way designed once in a while after going thrrough clothing and the problem of some feed issues with some pistols I just picked a round that after 200 down range seems to feed well for me and others and to this point no bad habits and expand's very well at low velocities. Like i have said if you like something else ,use it. Thats why we have so many choices now for guns and ammo. Pick one and enjoy. Oh darn sure less costly ,18.00 a box.

xXxplosive
August 29, 2009, 10:13 AM
Maybe this will help..............
http://www.mouseguns.com/deadmeat.htm

mljdeckard
August 29, 2009, 10:17 AM
hardluk, do you have any hard information that shows either how often other hollowpoints don't expand because they are clogged with cloth, or that CD ammo is going to be any better or worse? I just think it's a solution to a problem that it so rare it's not worth worrying about.

The only time I have EVER heard of it happenoing is......in ads for Hornady CD ammo.

hardluk1
August 29, 2009, 10:53 AM
Irsh Maybe you should explan HP's to the other guy as i have used them for decades hunting and always try to recover my bullets to see what works and what doesn't. After see'n how many bullets designs don't always work as planed as of now i will use the CD ammo. This tread was about the Hornady CD ammo and if it was a good ammo and they don't load big bores so it's not about a 45 or 40 in this tread . 40 years of hunting and bullet recovery tells me about HP's. Again for you to shoot what you want. This is about hornady CD. For hunting with a handgun I like barnes X for deer and hardcast for hogs. Now explane those.

hardluk1
August 29, 2009, 11:10 AM
mijdeckard I will admit i am a computer dummy so I do it like always, just set here and roll threw page after page till i find what i am look'n for. So in that regard No, I would just have to start again with" hornady 9mm CD test". I probably hit 5 or 6 sites on the CD ammo testing might take me some time to find it too. Oh, i know my spell'n sucks, but don't care that much to go over it and if a have a spell checker don't know how it works. Some times it's better than others. Oh well If i find some again i will let you know.

Mike J
August 29, 2009, 12:43 PM
I read that article in American Rifleman this ammunition looked pretty interesting to me. Seemed like a good idea.
mljdeckard-It happened not too far from here last year. There was a home invasion. The home owner shot 7 times-only 2 bullets penetrated the rest got caught up in the heavy clothing. The 2 that did the job one was a neck shot the other a head shot. The other criminal decided it was a good time to leave. Turns out the homeowner had professional training & was a regular IDPA competitor.
The gun used was a Glock chambered in .45 gap I don't remember the model number right now. I don't have a link but I can dig up a thread on a local forum about it if you like. I might be wrong but believe the ammunition used was a 200 grain jhp

Mike J
August 29, 2009, 01:10 PM
Here is a link if you are interested www.georgiapacking.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=260407hlit=burglary I remembered some of the facts a little wrong but the point remains pretty much the same.
Wanted to add posting this is pretty dense of me because this story would actually indicate that the Winchester ammo that was also featured might be a better choice (better penetrarion). Sometimes I just don't think.

skoro
August 29, 2009, 02:14 PM
My very limited experience with Critical Defense ammo has been with their 380 round out of my Kel-Tec P3AT. Cycles perfectly, is accurate, and expands uniformly.

I'm pleased enough to carry it.

BushyGuy
August 29, 2009, 02:23 PM
Hornady Critical Defense they almost always expand due to that plastic tip thats inside of the JHP i have 124 Gr CQ but mine dont have the plastic tip i was looking for those critical defense but all they had was the 115gr .

i would only buy 124 gr or 147 gr they give you more barrier penetration if someone styarts shooting at you and takes cover its important to have a bullet that can penetrate barriers to stop a threat .

115 gr is good if its at least 1200 FPS or higher from the muzzle less then that it wont effectively punch thru barriers and still carry enough energy to stop the threat.

i have 1 magazine loaded with 115gr Speer GDHP for speed and barrier penetration., and 1 loaded with the 147 gr GDHP thats in my 9mm now. i have a box of 20 bullets of the hornady 124 gr CQ i am saving that for my Ruger SR9 when i pick it up thursday.

SwampWolf
August 29, 2009, 05:22 PM
Isn't it nice that that we HAVE a range of choices in motor vehicles, firearms, and ammunition types? The more squabbling we do amongst ourselves, the easier it can be for others to find an excuse to restrict our selections. Please remember, we're all in this together.

Amen! I think it's important that we remind ourselves on occasion just how good we have it in this great country of ours (no, it ain't perfect and never will be) and that we acknowledge the importance of unity when it comes to fighting off those who are hell-bent on compromising our God-given liberties.

Eternal Vigilance!

SwampWolf
August 29, 2009, 05:23 PM
While I don't question the utility of hollow points in 9mm or .40 or other higher velocity pistol cartridges, I don't believe a .45acp from a 3&1/2 inch barrel is going to have enough velocity expand any hollow point on the market. Hard ball feeds more reliably than hollow point in the compact 1911s and is my choice.

Well said. My sentiments exactly.

riverdog
August 29, 2009, 07:25 PM
Depending on situations, I might be carrying a Glock G19 with 147 gr Gold Dots or a G21 with 230 gr Gold Dots. Other manufacturers make good controlled expansion bullets too, Remington Golden Saber being another. I'm not shooting heavy for caliber bullets to defeat windshields and cover; I shoot heavy bullets to defeat arms and other stuff that might prevent a bullet from penetrating. The idea is to stop the fight and the only reliable way to do that is to penetrate and disrupt vital organs.

All things being equal I'd rather be shooting a .308 Win bolt gun. But for CCW that's a tad inconvenient ;) These days where I'm allowed to carry it's the G19.

GRIZ22
August 29, 2009, 07:52 PM
I base ammo selection on which shoots most accurately in that particular gun. Gold Dots in Glocks, just about any 147 gr in S&Ws, Berettas and Taurus, etc in 9mm. I don't think all the premium ammo out there gives you much if any edge.

Deltaboy
August 29, 2009, 08:13 PM
I got some for my 38 snubbie since the store I shop at was out of Glasser SSB

swmp9jrm
August 29, 2009, 10:25 PM
Over on the Handgun forum on AR15.com, someone has posted about a failure to fire issue on a couple of rounds of 9mm Critical Defense. There was another post from someone who had had the same problem and spoke to Hornady about it. Apparently, Hornady changed from a nickel colored primer to a brass colored primer to address a no-fire issue. However, the CD that the OP had the problem with had the brass primer.

Now I do not normally spread rumors and innuendos, but since the Critical Defense seems to be gaining popularity, I'd like to hear if anyone here has had any failures to fire using these rounds. I just picked up a bunch of it for my PT-709, and now I plan to put a bunch of it through the gun to see if I've got any problems.

rhinoh
August 30, 2009, 10:09 AM
I haven't shot as much of it as I should, I've had no problems with it in 9mm 380 or 38 special.

Patrice
August 30, 2009, 11:56 AM
Well, if I owned any guns...I'd be more concerned about the reports of failures-to-fire with the CD cartridges than I would be about the question about whether it expands better or worse than brand-X or whether it has enough velocity. There's a number of threads floating about on several of the gun forums reporting multiple failures-to-fire-per-box . Not the kinda thing one wants to hear about a Self-Defense cartridge, I would think.:confused:

Shipwreck
August 30, 2009, 01:01 PM
I just bought a box of this to try in 2 guns as carry ammo.

I have the brass primers in my box. I'm a little irritated - as now I'll always be left "wondering.

Best case scenario - I'll just keep it in my extra mag I carry. But, now I'll be left wondering if I have a bad box like some on that Ar15 thread. You'll never know until its too late.

mljdeckard
August 30, 2009, 01:59 PM
As far as I can find, the only party that says that Hornady CD expands more consistently in clothing than any other JHP is.......Hornady.

donato
August 30, 2009, 05:33 PM
I've shot 4 boxes of Hornady CD(9 mm), 2 from Cabela's and 2 from a local shop. All, I think, had brass colored primers, at least the last 2 did for sure.

No malfunctions: No failures-to-fire or feed, no FTE.

Haven't checked each bullet to see if it expanded, so I can't address the "expands everytime" thing.

Shipwreck
August 30, 2009, 06:14 PM
I just ordered another box of hydrashok 124 gr online (I gave up trying to find it around here).

I'll just keep the CD ammo in my gunsafe with the rest of the extra. I don't have confidence in it right now I think - not because of the expansion, but because of the lack of discharge some people are reporting.

donato
August 30, 2009, 08:02 PM
Hey shipwreck,

Instead of putting it up in the safe, why not take it to the range and shoot it. See for yourself how it works and let us know too.

Shipwreck
August 30, 2009, 08:12 PM
I would, and I thought about it... And I was actually going to shoot 1/2 of it thru one of my guns to see how it worked (I've had different weight bullets sometimes shoot a little higher or lower than the gun is sighted, so I always look for that).

However, even if 24 of 25 worked, that doesn't tell me that the last one won't suffer from the failure to fire issue that they seem to be having. Or, that the next box won't suffer from this.

I guess I'd wait at least another year for these reports to go away and for the ammo to get more of a rep before I buy it again.

I was looking for something new to keep in my PM9. Guess this won't be it...

I like to keep extra ammo stashed. I think I'm better off just putting it away for a rainy day - as with shipping, it's not really worth trying to sell it to anyone online.

riverdog
August 30, 2009, 09:07 PM
Usually a "Lot" of ammo will all act similarly. If 24 of 25 worked, odds are really good that 25 is good too. However, now all your ammo is gone. Buy more than one box from the same Lot; I prefer to buy a case.

donato
August 31, 2009, 08:35 AM
On the failure to fire issue, it would be interesting to see (from those reporting such) just how many failures they have with some of the other ammo they've tried. Sometimes it the gun that's the problem.

Also on the expansion thing that someone posted a link to: Looks like the CD expanded just about as advertised. Even the Hornady XTP is not an overly large expander, especially when compared to some of the +p stuff. I've shot through pine boards with the CD and have gotten very nice expansion - now I'll admit that's not all-encompassing, scientific testing, but it's one test. Also works well through regular old dinner plates; in fact, one of the nicest expanded bullets I got (and a bit of a surprise to me) was one fired through a dinner plate followed by two pine boards (just touched and fell to the ground off the third board).

Girodin
September 2, 2009, 11:34 PM
I have been pleased with the Hornady critical defense in the little bit of "testing" I've done.

sltintexas
September 3, 2009, 09:18 PM
I fired off 10 9mm critical defense yesterday. with out a hitch. I cried a little due to the price I was sending down range, but all went bang.

MICHAEL T
September 4, 2009, 01:43 AM
As for the "FBI requirements", if a bullet over penetrates and hits innocent victims, the agent isn't going to get sued or likely go to jail. If it happens to us, we WILL.

More rounds miss than over penetrate So miss or over penetrate still same result I stick to my DPX Corbon in all my carry calibers

Girodin
September 6, 2009, 02:15 PM
Haven't checked each bullet to see if it expanded, so I can't address the "expands everytime" thing.

I have recovered one non-expanded critical defense round so every time must be false. That said the expansion I have seen has been very good and probably more consistent than many other loads and all rounds have always fired.

However, even if 24 of 25 worked, that doesn't tell me that the last one won't suffer from the failure to fire issue that they seem to be having. Or, that the next box won't suffer from this.

You realize that this is always true no matter what numbers you put in there or what brand of ammo you are talking about. I have no way of knowing how wide spread this FTF problem is but based purely on the number of rounds I have fired and the people I have spoken to I would think that statistically it must be minuscule. If you don't have confidence in the ammo then don't carry it it is as simple as that. However, your reasoning might not be super sound.

On the failure to fire issue, it would be interesting to see (from those reporting such) just how many failures they have with some of the other ammo they've tried. Sometimes it the gun that's the problem.

This was my thought too. I am not familar with the report in question but is it just one person claiming this? If so maybe it is a light strike issue or someting of that nature. It reminds me of the yahoo on here who blew up his FN 5.7 pistol and make a big fuss about the gun having fired out of battery and being an unsafe design etc etc. In the end it was confirmed that the guy just double charged his round and got the expected results. Even now however I will see references to FN 5.7s firing out of battery and being unsafe.

donato
September 6, 2009, 04:26 PM
Girodin
Quote:
Haven't checked each bullet to see if it expanded, so I can't address the "expands everytime" thing.
I have recovered one non-expanded critical defense round so every time must be false. That said the expansion I have seen has been very good and probably more consistent than many other loads and all rounds have always fired.

Through what medium was the non-expanded round fired?

Girodin
September 6, 2009, 09:59 PM
It was into a telephone book. If I can find the slug I'll post a pic. Other critical defense rounds did expand very well however. They also were the one of the two best rounds for expansion that we shot into those phonebooks that day. I was shooting with some other people so I am not sure what all the other loads were. One guy was shooting his carry ammo in 9mm and not one round expanded.

BTW I know phone books aren't the same as people and am not trying to make any claim in that respect.

dispatch55126
September 6, 2009, 10:26 PM
I know this thread is about CCW but the lack of penetration with CD does offer another benefit, home defense.

Mind you that my first choice is my 12ga. w/ TAP for home defense but the lack of penetration is a bonus if you have other people living in your home. In my case, I've got 2 small kids in the house and underpenetration is preferred to a bullet traveling through several rooms and going into my sons/daughters room.

If I ever have to face that...and my house has been broken into before...I'd rather blaze away, not penetrate wall abut scare the BG vs. the potential of hitting one of my kids while they sleep.

SheepNutz
September 7, 2009, 12:07 AM
I only have 1 box of JHP right now, and it's Hornady CD 9mm. After hearing about FTF issues with this ammo, I decided to shoot 7 rounds from the box (leaving me 18 to fill my M&P9). I had no FTF issues at all, but couldn't check penetration, as I was shooting at targets stapled to a tree. Still, I think when I can find about 100 rounds of gold dot +p, I'll just waste away the Hornady.

rhinoh
September 7, 2009, 06:20 AM
It was into a telephone book.

Was the phone book wet or dry? CDs are designed to penetrate stuff like clothing, or dry phone books, then expand in tissue.
Now if the book was saturated wet...hmmm.

DasFriek
September 9, 2009, 09:14 PM
Can someone explain what the differance is between the CD and the TAP offerings?
I currently carry the TAP's in my PT745 as i do prefer more penetration,but is that the only differance?My local place carrys both and it seems the CD is selling better anyhow.

I know i shot about 5-6 boxs of CD in 10mm with no failures either.They actually a pretty hot load and definetly not downloaded,but at $1 a pop it got pricy fast but i loved shooting them as much as DoubleTaps.

On a side note i carry CorBon 230 +p in my 1911,they look to be gold dot bullets imo.I know some people like those but just as many seem to say they have expanding issues?
Of course i want expansion and penetration,but expansion is more important imo.

CZF
September 10, 2009, 04:43 PM
I didn't know that the FTX Critical Defense was available in 10mm quite yet?

My CZs love the 9mm Critical Defense.
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb26/czrami/RAMI%202/RAM2.jpg
Can't find any Hornady XTP or other 10mm ammo at my local shops.

Do you have any pics of the 10mm FTX boxes?

alfack
September 10, 2009, 07:55 PM
They only make the CD in .38, .380 and 9mm, so far.

mesinge2
September 10, 2009, 08:02 PM
I have a 9mm revolver with a 2" barrel and I purchased some because I figured that they will mushroom when a conventional hollow point would not achieve the velocity to open up. The rounds should be here on Wednesday.

DasFriek
September 10, 2009, 08:34 PM
Yeh my mistake,it was XTP not the CD.

easyg
September 10, 2009, 09:33 PM
I like 'em!

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n165/allenXdog/HPIM5676.jpg

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n165/allenXdog/HPIM5678.jpg

mesinge2
September 10, 2009, 10:05 PM
Easyg, That is actually my 9mm revolver, but I ordered it with the full-size grips.

105142

easyg
September 10, 2009, 11:17 PM
Excellent choice!

You're gonna love it.

mesinge2
September 16, 2009, 07:26 PM
easyg, my 9mm critical defense rounds arrived for my Taurus 905. I'm heading to the range next week. I post the mushroomed rounds after.

barton72
October 13, 2009, 07:47 AM
Just found this forum and thread while searching the net to see if failure to fires with the Hornady Critical defense was common or if it was just me. Seems to be a real issue. I have a Ruger LCP 380. Picked up two boxes of 25 @ Bass Pro a while back. I have shot several magazines of Remington UMC without a single problem. Fired very few Remington Golden Sabers as well and had no problems. Two out of four attempts to fire the Hornady Critical defense went boom. The other two just "Click". Perfect strike in the center of the primer on both failures. Both boxes are from the same Lot# and have a nickel primer.

I only attempted to fire the four rounds. With a success rate of 50% (2 out of 4), I have ZERO confidence in this ammo. I have spoken to Hornady and will be shipping the two boxes off today. I wanted a refund of my $$, but they won't do that and neither will Bass Pro. Instead Hornady said they will ship me out the same crap that I don't trust at all + some extra for my troubles. That's great. Maybe they have changed primers and fixed the issue, but I still won't be carrying this stuff or buying any other Hornady products. One lesson learned, always test your ammo! Links to other problems with the CD....

http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulletin/defensive-carry-guns/88059-ruger-lcp-safe-get-one-yet-5.html

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=5&f=20&t=82191&page=1

kmbrman
October 13, 2009, 11:13 AM
The only thing I know is that before this round was developed for 2" snubs ,the speed of a hollow point was very low for most bullet types. In some of the published velocity test in the gun mags. 1000 fps. is nothing to sneeze at from the 110 Plus- P 38sp. load in the Critical Defense. This is enough speed for expansion and penetration from snubs, where this had been a real problem.

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