[Aikibiker]

This is just sickening. I can understand a cop pretending to arrest a kid to set them straight on something that could get them in trouble when they are older. But this is way beyond anything that should tolerated in this country. The cop shouldn't be fired, he should be tarred, feathered, and run out of town on a rail.

http://www.morningjournal.com/site/news.cfm?BRD=1699&dept_id=46371&newsid=10419957&PAG=461&rfi=9

9-year-old arrested for waving toy gun




MICHAEL C. FITZPATRICK , Morning Journal Writer 10/28/2003




LORAIN -- A 9-year-old boy was arrested at gunpoint and handcuffed Saturday because he was waving a toy gun over his head while seated on a bench outside a store, according to a Lorain police report.

His mother, Tamyka Saunders of Sheffield Lake, said her son, Thomas Clark Jr., told Lorain police when they approached him outside a Broadway business that the gun was a toy. An officer aimed his weapon at the boy's head, ordered him to the ground, handcuffed him and arrested him for juvenile delinquency by reason of inducing panic, according to the police report.

Saunders, 28, was also charged with obstruction of justice and resisting arrest when she pleaded with police not to arrest her son and to give him a warning, according to a police report.

''He doesn't deserve this. He is not a bad kid at all. That's what I was trying to explain to the officer. It's just not fair,'' Saunders said.

Saunders was getting her hair done at the Northern Institute of Cosmetology on Broadway near Seventh Street when the incident began.

Saunders said she and her son were spending the day together . Saunders said her son got his hair cut first, and then he went outside to play while waiting on her.

A passer-by who saw the boy playing just before noon with a gun -- described by police as a black plastic toy gun -- called police, who responded to the scene and found the boy ''waving what appeared to be a black handgun above his head,'' according to a police report. The report said the gun was spray painted black and resembled a genuine gun.

At that point, Officer Joe Novosielski confronted the boy at gunpoint, ordering him to drop the gun and then lie on the ground, the report said.

Thomas, who his mother said has been diagnosed with attention deficit disorder, said he was frightened by the incident.

Lorain police said Novosielski handled the situation properly.

''Obviously, someone got scared and called the police. Nobody driving down the street could tell it was a toy gun, so that's where the panic comes in. We charge that to anyone doing that,'' Lt. Robert Poli said.

''We're not going to tolerate anyone walking down the street, sitting on a bench ... if he's waving a gun around,'' Poli said. ''You don't know it's a toy gun.''

Saunders said police were not even going to come inside the cosmetology institute to tell her they were arresting her son. She said she learned from another woman her son was being arrested.

Saunders, wearing curlers in her hair, said she raced out to the police car to attempt to intervene on her son's behalf.

''He (Novosielski) snatched me by the arm and cuffed me. People were just walking down the street shaking their heads. I did not cuss at him, and I did not yell at him, because I'm not that type of person. I feel I'm the one that was disrespected,'' Saunders said of her arrest.

When informed her son was being arrested, Saunders attempted to pull her son away from the officer but moved away when told to, according to the report.

Police said Saunders pleaded with them not to arrest her son and to ''just give him a warning,'' according to the report. She also told police her son ''was just playing'' and that he didn't point the gun at anyone before asking police, ''Don't you have anything better to do?''

Saunders was eventually arrested after refusing to move away from the cruiser where her son had been placed, the report said. The officer told her to finish her business at the beauty salon and then come to the station to pick up her son, according to the report.

She is free on $750 bond and is scheduled to appear in Lorain Municipal Court today. The report of Thomas' arrest was forwarded to the juvenile court system, according to the police report.

Lorain County Prosecutor's Office spokesman Mark Hastings said the report had not been received yet.

©The Morning Journal 2003

[semf]

This kinda stuff just makes me sick. And I don't want to hear about 9 year olds shooting cops. There comes a point when enough is enough. This idiot was out of lineand should be discharged or at least reasigned to a non public are as he obviously dosn't have the skills to deal with the public.
And to arrest a mother for verbally trying to come to her son's aide and refusing to abandon him is just plain stupid. I truly hope that this cop is severely disiplined and any prosecutor that brings charges should be dimissed by the voters. Heads should roll on this on.

[KMKeller]

This is absolutely unbelievable! What was the cop thinking? Here's one kid who'll never trust a cop again. Good PR job there officer Jack***.

[standingbear]

unfreakin believable.do they need the revenue that bad...glad it wasnt neighborhood kids playing.:eek:zombie squad time.

[outfieldjack]

Why was the gun "spray-painted" black? I thought those "fake guns" normally have an orange tip on the barrell? I wonder if it was painted that way to "appear" real. Not out of the question that others have painted one to look real before the commission of a crime. I'm not saying that is the case here though.... I don't think the boy should have been arrested.

Jack

[Old Fuff]

Maybe the gun shouldn't have been painted black - if indeed it was. But any cop should be able to tell the difference between a real handgun and a toy in broad daylight. I think is improbable the officer didn't know what he was dealing with by the time he got close enough to cuff the youngster.

[Dave P]

This is Ohio, right?!?

[Baba Louie]

She should thank her lucky stars he wasn't shot 15 times (ruled justifiable) for making a Police Officer "Fear for his life." 9 years of age is old enough to explain and understand some very basic rules of life about guns, be they toy or real. Sad but true.
Parenting is a tough job. So is being a Police Officer.

Adios

[Leatherneck]

9 years of age is old enough to explain and understand some very basic rules of life about guns
Maybe so, Louie, but did you catch this?Thomas, who his mother said has been diagnosed with attention deficit disorder,
So we've got (apparently) a non-custodial Mom spending the day with her kid who has some degree of impairment, getting busted in an excess of zeal. Sounds like Lorain is trying to be like Newark or Trenton. :rolleyes:

TC
TFL Survivor

[outfieldjack]

If her son has "ADD" it was PROBABLY not the best idea to leave him unattended, on the side of the street, with a painted toy handgun.

Jack

[foghornl]

This is ALMOST as big an embarrasment to Ohio as US Rep Dennis Kucinich, and former US Rep James "Dead possum for a toupee" Trafficant.

[greyhound]

Though I agree that the boy getting arrested is a little much, two comments:

before asking police, ''Don't you have anything better to do?''

Probably not the best thing to say in that situation!:D

Saunders was eventually arrested after refusing to move away from the cruiser where her son had been placed, the report said. The officer told her to finish her business at the beauty salon and then come to the station to pick up her son, according to the report.

How can you be arrested and then go back and finish your hair appoinment? Do they really mean she was issued a citation? And if so, is using "arrested" a way for a writer to make things sound more dramatic?

[greyhound]

This is ALMOST as big an embarrasment to Ohio as US Rep Dennis Kucinich,

Wait a minute, foghornl, Dennis Kucinich is going to institute a "Department Of Peace" when elected, so therefore there won't BE any confrontations between people and police, no crime, and certainly no need for toy or real guns.....:rolleyes:

[TonyB]

When I was a kid,we took the little red thingy out of the barrels of our toy guns,and made every attempt to make them look real....maybe NOT such a great idea,but we were kids and we liked guns.I remember carrying my toy gun everywhere,when my Dad found out,he wasn't all that crazy about it,and said to keepthe toy at home........one Holloween I went as farmer w/ a REAL 410 shotgun.No body thought twice.....now I'm sure I'd be arrested.Times have changed...and not for the better....kids can't even be kids anymore w/out some Yaa-hoo testosterone head cop pointing a gun at the HEAD of a child.
1)is pointing a gun at a suspects HEAD even justifiable???
2)I could see if this kid was a 200lb. 16yr old,but he was 9.....
3)the Mom should've been a little more attentive to kid w/ ADD.....
Sad all around...:confused:

[Ukraine Train]

Lorain is on the west side of Cleveland, about a half hour from my house, actually. Just because the kid has ADD doesn't mean he can't sit outside of a store to wait for his mom. It's not like he was playing in traffic.

[TallPine]

I just never realized before what a juvenile delinquent that I (and all the kids I played with) were back in our childhood days.

:rolleyes:

[Daniel T]

Wow, look at the pounding this cop is taking. Where are the beloved defenders of the blue when you need them most?

[Jesse H]

I've seen some airsoft USP's and CZ's that looked like the real thing until you picked them up.

[Bill Hook]

At least he wasn't a pet dog, otherwise, BAM! :rolleyes:

Not trying to be prejudiced, but the mom's name makes it sound as though they were black. Wonder if THAT had any bearing on the officer's decision to threaten him with deadly force. When this kid turns 16 and gets a car, I can see him possibly fleeing, rather than get "cuffed and stuffed" by the local cops for "driving while black.":rolleyes:

[Nightfall]

At what point in our nation's history did it become acceptable for a cop to aim a gun at the head of a child with ADD, cuff, and arrest him over a toy? All apparently AFTER the boy's mother informed police that it was indeed a toy?
...arrested him for juvenile delinquency by reason of inducing panic...
I think I figured out the point where it came acceptable... probably the point where a child with a toy gun induced panic. :mad:

[geekWithA.45]

Massively poor judgement, inexcusable.

And don't give me this "the toy gun was painted black" garbage, that just excuses the police from their responsibility to make responsible shoot/don't shoot decisions.

When I was a kid, we didn't even HAVE the orange end cap, and many of the cowboy toys looked pretty damned real.

And you sure in hell didn't have deputy Fife blasting away at kids. Along came the late 70's early 80's, with the "Oh so lifelike" toy guns, a couple of Barneys made bad choices, and viola: "It's the toy's fault".

Now, holding kids at gunpoint is officially ensconsed in our LEO SOP.

Does anyone else see anything wrong with this?

Are American cities crawling with so many heavily armed 8 & 9 year olds, sniping at cops from behind garbage cans that we have to have such hair triggers?

I think not.


Perspective, balance, and good judgement have gone completely out the window, and we have gone mad.

[Bill Hook]

Are American cities crawling with so many heavily armed 8 & 9 year olds, sniping at cops from behind garbage cans that we have to have such hair triggers?

Just speculation, but black child = future criminal in the eyes of many, especially suburban LE.

[Edward429451]

Brings new light to the term "for the children', huh?

And yet, if the momma had come outside to see the cop pointing a gun at her child and shot the cop (rightly so), then she'd be tagged the bad guy!

:rolleyes:

How could any thinking person be expected to swallow this as anything less than tyranny/police state? It sounded like a full mag response was called for...that would be a high road response too, if you think about it.

[grampster]

What Tallpine said.

:rolleyes:

[Atticus]

In the kid's defense....he can't carry concealed in Ohio...now can he.:D

I'm with the cop up until the arrest (utter BS)..unless this article is leaving out some details. Pretty poor judgement on the part of mom though. That's just axin for trouble.

[Andrew Rothman]

It was colossally poor judgement (on the part of mom) to leave a kid alone outside in public with a toy gun painted to look real.

The reality is this: Thanks to irresponsible adults, little kids sometimes DO end up playing with real, loaded guns.

The cop had EVERY :cuss: right to ensure his own safety until the kid was disarmed or it was determined that the gun was fake.

It was moderately poor judgement (on the part of the cop) not to simply put the fear of God into the kid and let him loose with a warning. He could have de-escalated the situation once it was determined that there was no danger.

Still, I hereby declare the "fifth rule" of gun safety -- every gun is a real gun, until proven otherwise!

As a parent, I don't mind my kids playing with BLAZE ORANGE toy guns. Toy guns that look real are tradegies waiting to happen. Sorry about the nostalgia, guys, but this is 2003.

[RustyHammer]

Ban beauty shops!

[Edward429451]

You're right. I don't know what I was thinking. Officer safety is paramount, even above 9 yr old kids. I'll turn in our Airsofts and instruct the kids to not even point a finger at an officer.

I'm a slow starter with this police state stuff, but its not my fault. All those lieing history teachers got me all confused with this nostalgic constitution tripe.

A 9 yr old's demeanor with a toy gun sure can be intimidating. Sorry if I forgot to take that into account, I'll watch out for those tough ones. (where was that cops backup?)

[J.J.]

Ok here’s my .02 cents.

Grayhound: I believe he suggested for her to finish her hair appointment when she refused to do that she was then arrested no?


Some say it was a bad decision on the mother’s part. But, who’s to say she was anyway rational. Put yourself in her shoes your son has a gun pointed at him and is being arrested at the age of 9. That would be something VERY hard to be rational about. AND, how can you go and sit calmly to finish getting your hair done when your little child is traumatized by having a gun pointed at him forced to lay on the ground handcuffed and put in the back of a police car for playing.

In Texas the little one wouldn't go to Jail. Instead Strait to Juvenile hall for him. But, honestly I think this is sickening and scary.

I also can think of the times running around my neighborhood with fake guns shooting my neighbors in games of "war." Or shooting my B.B. gun in the backyard etc

[Aikibiker]

It wasn't that long ago that I was running around playing guns with my friends. We used those evil realistic guns too. At the time I was living in the worst neighborhood in town two of the people featured on the TV show America's Most Wanted were caught in my neighborhood. Police presence was high.

When the cops came by while we were playing with our toy machine guns they didn't draw down on us, they smiled and waved.

What that officer did was wrong plain and simple. I still think he should be tarred and feathered.

RE ADD: Attention Deficit Disorder is wildly over diagnosed in this country, it has become a catchall diagnosis for any child that doesn't behave like one of the Stepford Wives while in school. I should know, I was misdiagnosed with ADD when I was a kid. I got to try all sorts of mind altering medication THAT I DIDN'T NEED. It wasn't fun at all and is part of the reason I think people that take recreational drugs are idiots.

[JohnBT]

"It was colossally poor judgement (on the part of mom) to leave a kid alone outside in public with a toy gun painted to look real."

Thank you for thinking this through. Heck, it was poor judgement to let him have a black gun at all. I know, I know, she was ADD or ADHD too, right?

It (you don't think he pointed it at anybody do you) was called in and it could have been a real gun. Around here a black plastic gun being waved in public might just draw fire. We have plenty of kids with real guns around here.

If the officer had taken the toy gun away from the kid I bet I'd be reading posts on "Officer steals widdle baby's toy."

Or maybe "Officer hassles disabled minority choir boy while eating doughnuts."

Or maybe...oh, you get the idea.

I'm worried about some of y'all and the constant cop bashing.

John...I have cap guns that are 50 years old and By God if I'd been caught waving one of them in the street the police would have been the least of my problems. Yeah, we ran the alleys of Baltimore plays cops and robbers and cowboys and indians, but not the public streets. Note: We never could get even numbers of cowboys and indians because everybody wanted to be an indian.

[Brat7748]

Send your letter to the newspaper at

letters@morningjournal.com

[outfieldjack]

What JohnBT said.... quit bashing the cops... Time for a little self-responsability. If it had been a kid with real gun some of y'all would be complaining 'cause it took to long for a cop to get to the scene....

WHAT IF you were walking down the street and a kid pulled out a "real looking" gun on you?!?!?! Would you draw down on him? I would.

Jack

[Mastrogiacomo]

These people make me sick. I hope that cop gets fired for aiming a gun at a child's head. Please God -- give that woman a good lawyer that sues the ??? off of that department....:cuss:

[Steve in PA]

The gun looked real. Thats all that matters. Heres a picture showing a "toy" BB gun. Guess no one here would have drawn on anyone waving this around right???

Blame the LEO for acting like it was a real weapon. Makes me laugh after reading stories on these boards about "I almost broke leather last night". :rolleyes:

The caption under the picture reads...."Spokane Police Chief Roger Bragdon shows reporters the .177 cal. BB gun that a 15 year old pointed at police in a recent school shooting. The boy was shot and killed."

[Standing Wolf]

Well, yeah, but we're not a police state.

[Brat7748]

Don't most cop cars have something like "to protect and serve" on their sides? Maybe they should add some fine print like "except Officer safety is paramount". You can't paint all LEO's with the same brush their are many fine ones out there....but...It seems to me many departments are hiring the wrong kind of person. Agressive, shaved head, bulging muscle, I'm bad attitude types.
I know a fellow from high school days who told us he wanted to be a cop because he wanted to drive fast, carry a gun, and chase people...he is now a State trooper.

[Mastrogiacomo]

There's no excuse for aiming a gun at a child's head -- he said it was a toy. If this child was deaf, I'm sure he'd already be dead.

[Andrew Rothman]

And we call antis knee-jerk?

I can't believe what I'm reading. A lot of people here are excoriating the cop for treating a real-looking gun as if it were real!

You know, nine-year-olds can -- and have -- pulled triggers on real guns.

If someone points a real-looking gun at me, I will treat it as a real threat.

Of course, I would try to retreat (it's good to be a civilian). But a cop can't. He has to deal with the situation.

Also, keep this in mind. THE COP DIDN'T SHOOT! So you are all blasting him for being cautious.

Just remember that gun owners are NOT always right, and cops are NOT always wrong.

[Bill Hook]

What happened to the cop ordering the boy to put the gun down first?

A nine year-old may be able to pull the trigger, but I'm not expecting accurate fire from him, such that it would be necessary to shoot him w/o thinking it through first.

[outfieldjack]

All of you second-guessing, Monday Morning Quarterbacks make me :cuss:

Still, none of you said what you would do if you were walking by and a young person pulled a "real looking" gun on you!!! :confused:

[gunsmith]

on Andy Griffith.
Whats the phone # of that police dept?

[Bill Hook]

All of you second-guessing, Monday Morning Quarterbacks make me

Yeah, until some moron with a badge pulls the same bonehead move and threatens your kid, grandkid, etc. with his very real gun held at eye-level to the child.

:rolleyes:

If these guys can't use better judgment, then they should apply for a desk job.

[Steve in PA]

Better judgement?? For what......thinking the gun is real???

Like you'd act any different if faced with the same situation.

Heck, there are people on here who brag about packing a gun, a back up gun, a ka-bar, spot light, etc, etc........just in case ......but hey, they can tell the difference between a toy and a real gun......no problem.

:banghead:

[Correia]

I've got no problem with the cop being cautious. It may have looked like a real gun. As for how the kid appeared, when I was nine years old I was 5'5" and had a mustache. :p

My problem kicks in at the point in time when the kid was arrested AFTER it was discovered that the gun was a toy.

WHY?

What possible purpose could hauling the kid in have? He didn't do anything wrong.

As for getting grilled by Monday morning quarterbacks, that is part of law enforcement. It is called higher standard of care. They have been entrusted with authority, and people are going to watch how they behave, and they are going to second guess it. That is the nature of the job.

[gunsmith]

was taken from the kid it should have been all over.
Kids do play with real guns and bad things do happen,
But to arrest the kid is going to far.
What the heck happened to common sense?
At most the kid should have had a stern talking to (and the Mom as well).
Bringing the kid "downtown" is a waste of time and taxpayer $$
I see kids with real looking toys all the time,you have to be kinda anal retentive to make a big deal about it.

[BamBam]

Many of you sum this up as "Police nearly murder adorable little kid with ADD."

What about this: "Police get call of person bransidhing a hangun, cops respond and apprehend using standard tecniques for armed suspects, suspect turns out to be nine-years-old, weapon is found to be toy gun modified to look real; mother shows up and refuses to follow officers orders to maintain distance, tries to wrestle suspect from police custody, both mother and son are arrested so that a judge can decide proper dispose"

[Bill Hook]

What kind of better judgment?

Like asking the kid to drop it. Like moving bystanders away. Like going in the back door of the beauty parlor and asking if anyone knows the kid (Think about why a small boy would be in front of a beauty parlor.). If not, then come out from behind him and disarm him.

If I were the cop and a kid was playing with what I thought was a gun, and he hadn't killed/wounded anyone yet, and no shots had been heard, then I'd think he had his dad's gun and is just goofing around with what he doesn't realize is a real weapon.

I'm sorry, but there seem to be a lot of brain-dead individuals wearing a badge, which unlike the brain-dead working at McDonald's, can have untoward consequences.

Equivocate on that, why don't you?

[Steve in PA]

In an ideal world, a parent would have been called......the "toy" handed back to them.......and kid released to them.......probably to get an a$$ whoopin' from dad when he got home from work.

[Steve in PA]

I see........so now we wait while junior is playing with daddies gun until it goes off....or...wait until he pulls the trigger because he wants to shoot it like the guys and kids in the movies before something is done?? :banghead:

Yeah.......lots of brain dead individuals NOT wearing a badge too.

[36fan]

All I can say is if it were my kid in the situation, I would have been arrested by the next cop on the scene for either shooting or kicking the ????? out of the cop.

The article siad the kid was waving the gun over his head and he pointed his gun at the kid. It never once says the kid pointed the TOY at anyone.

Yeah, the gun 'looked' real. We had a thing around here a few years ago called the 'Blazer Rapist", where the cop 'looked' real, right before he raped several women.

Tar and feathering isn't enough for this guy. Stoning is more appropriate.

[Bill Hook]

I see........so now we wait while junior is playing with daddies gun until it goes off....or...wait until he pulls the trigger because he wants to shoot it like the guys and kids in the movies before something is done??

Dontcha think, if the gun had bullets, he'd have fired some off, considering how slow response times are most places?

Oh, in case you didn't realize it, no one was saying nothing need be done, only pointing a gun at a little boy should've been waaaay down the options list.

'Course, little black boys are born criminals. :rolleyes:

[greyhound]

My problem kicks in at the point in time when the kid was arrested AFTER it was discovered that the gun was a toy.

That's a good point. In all the hullaballoo of cops are good/cops are bad I had forgotten that point...

[Steve in PA]

I see......so now its the, well if the gun had bullets they would have fired by now concept.

What rule of gun handling saftey is that?

Rule #??? A gun is empty until it goes off. Simply amazing. :banghead:

[greyhound]

'Course, little black boys are born criminals

I've seen a couple references that the boy is black. Is that because the mother's first name is Tymika and has a different last name than the boy?

I recently had a comeuppance - when I found out that the woman buying the house next door was named Chantel, I assumed she was black. Turned out she was wonder bread white. Inside, I felt a fool.

Sorry off topic, but I don't see where race is mentioned in the article.

[Bill Hook]

Sorry off topic, but I don't see where race is mentioned in the article.

Purely a guess. However, I'm thinking that had this been a little white boy, the cop might've done something other than draw down on him right off the bat.

We'll know if Jesse or Al come to Cleveland and stage a protest until they, and maybe the kid and his mom, if there's any left, are paid off.

Rule #??? A gun is empty until it goes off. Simply amazing.

It's "little kid playing with a gun" rule, which is that, of course he's pulled the trigger, since it's A) a gun and B) he's playing. I'd take 9:1 odds on that, too.

[LiquidTension]

I have no problem with the cop being cautious. He's just doing his job. I could almost forgive him for aiming his weapon at the kid's head if it weren't for the rest of his actions. Once it was found that the "gun" was a TOY, that should have been the end of it. A stern lecture to both parent and child would have sufficed, and the kid probably would have grown up with more respect for firearms and cops alike. As it is, any gun will likely remind him of his horrendous encounter with the overzealous cop that was just out to get him for doing what all kids do - playing. He will have no respect for law enforcement at all, and it's more likely he'll end up a criminal. A cop coming up and arresting me for doing absolutely nothing wrong would definitely put law enforcement and authority figures in general in a bad light in my eyes. This cop used his significant power of discretion, just like he had many other times I'm sure, and decided that overkill was the best way to handle the situation.

Bottome line: kid should have been told not to wave real-looking guns around, cop shouldn't have arrested him after he found out that IT WAS A TOY, that it was NOT AIMED AT ANYONE, and the kid was NOT THREATENING ANYONE. Bad kid. Bad cop. Bad mommy.

Confucious say: "No use cannon to kill mosquito."

[QuickDraw]

*sniff* *sniff* Smell that?
Smells like a lawsuit to me!

QuickDraw

[LawDog]

I have some major problems with this.

In Texas, I'm not allowed to arrest a 9 year-old. I would imagine that Ohio has the same sort of law.

Now, either the officer has really screwed the pooch, or the news agency has got one (or more) fairly important facts misplaced.

I'll hold off on judgement until I get more information.

LawDog

[Phyphor]

When I was a kid, I did in fact play with realistic plastic BLACK squirt guns....


Now, If I was a cop, going by a kid waving a realistic gun around, I'd approach him, and say "Wow, dude.. that's cool.... can I please see it? "

Most normal. well adjusted kids, would probably hand me the gun..... if it was in fact plastic, I'd say "wow, that's cool" and give 'em it back... if it was real, I'd tell them so. And I'd ask where they got it, as I unloaded it.

I damned sure wouldn't try anything as f***ing stupid as a felony-stop style draw-down on the kids.

[AZRickD]

Yeah, I thought you'd like to have a word with them...

Ya know, when I think of all the thousands of hours I spent playing cops and robbers, army and commies with my pop gun and cap gun, if I only knew that I was risking being tactically taken down by Lima, Ohio PD...

Rick

http://www.lorainpolice.com/news/

Lorain Police Department
100 West Erie Avenue
Lorain, Ohio 44052-1646
PH: 440.204.2100
Fax: 440.244.0084

Chief of Police Kathy_Keiffer@CityofLorain.org

The Morning Journal
http://www.morningjournal.com/site/news.asp?brd=1699

9-year-old arrested for waving toy gun
http://www.zwire.com/site/10419957.html

by MICHAEL C. FITZPATRICK , Morning Journal Writer

10/28/2003

LORAIN -- A 9-year-old boy was arrested at gunpoint and handcuffed Saturday
because he was waving a toy gun over his head while seated on a bench
outside a store, according to a Lorain police report.

His mother, Tamyka Saunders of Sheffield Lake, said her son, Thomas Clark
Jr., told Lorain police when they approached him outside a Broadway
business that the gun was a toy. An officer aimed his weapon at the boy's
head, ordered him to the ground, handcuffed him and arrested him for
juvenile delinquency by reason of inducing panic, according to the police
report.

Saunders, 28, was also charged with obstruction of justice and resisting
arrest when she pleaded with police not to arrest her son and to give him a
warning, according to a police report.
--snip--

[tyme]

Completely agree with liquidtension. Kid and mom should have gotten yelled at by cops and every other responsible citizen within range.

Sure, lots of people here owned and carried around toy guns years ago, but did you wave them above your head while you were out in public? It sounds like this was at a strip mall. Generally people play with toy guns in residential areas.

Both this kid and the kid who drew the U.S. soldier shooting the taliban fighter were both "diagnosed" with ADD according to the media. What's going on? I haven't read two articles about ADD kids getting in trouble in such a short time-span... ever, that I recall. ADD labels themselves make me wretch. Parents find a friendly doctor to label their kids ADD. That will get them unlimited time on SATs and other special considerations so they can be brats more of the time and don't have to learn responsibility or consequences for their actions.

Grr.

[Bill Hook]

That will get them unlimited time on SATs and other special considerations


What a racket. I coulda cracked the 1500 level if i knew about this.

Between test prep and special considerations for the 3/4 of kids that have ADD now, these standardized tests seem like even more of a joke. Oh, and calculators to do the math sections, puhhleeze.

[C.R.Sam]

Agree with LawDog...
We likely not gettin the straight scoop.
And/or the ossifer made enough mistakes to last him forever.

Sam

[semf]

tries to wrestle suspect from police custody, both mother and son are perhaps you should reread the artcle. She complied when the officer told her to back off. Sounds to me like a rational response to an irrational situation.

Some people are stating that BB guns look like real guns. No where in the articles has the gun been described as anything but a black plastic gun. If it had been a realistic Airsoft or pellet gun I'm sure the PD would have made a point of getting that info out. My guess is a Buck Rogers style squirt gun painted black.

As long as we are jumping to conclusions, has anyone ever seen how a kid twirls a gun. Kinda over his head. I can picture the kid now twirling his gun trying to get the drop on his reflection in the store windows, trying to make the best out of beauty salon hell day for a 9yo boy, and scaring the hell out of the sensible white folks seeing some darky practicing his future stick up skills. (And by the way I'm just as pissed at the loser that called this in as I am at the flatfoot that responded.)

And by the way Tamyka is a uniquely African American name. Chantel is a common Euro name especially French.

There were a hundred different ways to handle this situation I think the cop picked just about the worst. If anyone is that paronoid I don't want or need them to "protect" me.

And I agree with Tyme ADD is a catch all phrase for "I don't have the skills to handle my kids". It's just part of the trend in America of not taking responsibility for one's own actions.

[444]

I agree with those that posted about their childhood experiences. How is it that for 90 years or more, kids played with toy guns and the police didn't think anything of it. Now it is worthy of using deadly force. When I was 9 years old I owned a REAL handgun. When I was 12 years old I regularly walked down the city streets with REAL guns. I never caused any problems and no one cared about it at all. I used to lean a .22 rifle against the outside of the door of a store, go inside to buy a soda pop or whatever and never thought anything about it.

Some of you have got the talking done. I sent an E-Mail to the police chief:
Kathy_Keiffer@CityofLorain.org

I think this is a disgrace. I see no justification for this at all.

[BluesBear]

from tyme
Parents find a friendly doctor to label their kids ADD. That will get them unlimited time on SATs and other special considerations so they can be brats more of the time and don't have to learn responsibility or consequences for their actions.
from semf
ADD is a catch all phrase for "I don't have the skills to handle my kids".
AMEN Bretheren, AMEN.

Right or wrong the police have this kids ATTENTION now.

When I was a kid I had LOTS of toy guns.
One of the most memorable was a dart gun (y'all remember those suction cup tipped darts?) that was a same size replica of a Colt Woodsman Match Target. I got it when I was 5. (1960) Which is why I lust after owning a real one to this day, but I just can't justify the high price.

The other was a .45. I got it when I was 8. (1963) It was EXACT size, in fact I bought a geenuwine WWII brown holster from an army surplus store for $4.50 WITH a web pistol belt, first aid pouch and magazine pouch. The detachable magazine held 7 rounds of plastic ammo this actually launched a spring powered "bullet"/ The mag release worked just like a real 45. You cycled the slide and it fed and ejected just like a real one. I even got my parents to mail order 2 extra mags for $1.50 each so I could carry two spares in my pouch like a real soldier. (The same company made a full sized M14 to go with it as well as a Safari Rifle and Pistol and Lever action rifle with companion Single Action Revolver. All could be bought in sets with a wall plaque that held the rifle & pistol.) Anyone else remember these?

If I still had those toy guns and I pointed them at anyone I'd expect to get shot post haste!

Yeah, we walked around with our fingers on the triggers but for some reason we didn't have AD/ND. Yeah, we pointed guns at each other when playing Army or Cowboys or Cops or Secret Agents. But we didn't point them at adults. We only played these games in our back yards or farm fields or in the local "woods". And IF we had ever seen a police officer we sure would have done EXACTLY as we were asked/told.

As for the kid in this article just "waving the gun above his head"? Maybe, maybe not, I have a gut feeling that there is maybe a little more involved.

Time will tell.

After all SOMEBODY thought enough of his actions to CALL the police. It's not as if they just happened by. (At least according to the story, which we don't know if it is accurate or not.)


Like Lawdog, who is one of the few to keep a level head during this thread, I will hold final judgement until I get some REAL facts not just a hurried newspaper report.

I bet y'all a dollar to a doughnut that there's a LOT more to be learned about this. :scrutiny:

[Orthonym]

It was VERY real-looking, and real-functioning. Even shot little plastic bullets from the springs in the cartridges.

[outfieldjack]

trying to make the best out of beauty salon hell day for a 9yo boy, and scaring the hell out of the sensible white folks seeing some darky practicing his future stick up skills.

I hope your comments were filled with sarcasm...... The Mother and Son may be black..... but don't ASSume that the people who called it in were white. Jumping to conclusions like that is a sterotype in of itself...... I guess you also ASSume the cop was white. :cuss: :cuss: :cuss:

Best not to go there...... The only thing we know for sure that was black was the gun.... don't turn this into a race thing.

Jack

[only1asterisk]

video clip here: http://www.woio.co

I don't have sound, but that kid sure looks like a cop killer to me!

David

[semf]

"I hope your comments were filled with sarcasm...... The Mother and Son may be black..... but don't ASSume that the people who called it in were white. Jumping to conclusions like that is a sterotype in of itself...... I guess you also ASSume the cop was white."

"As long as we are jumping to conclusions"
Yes the whole thing was based on conclusion jumping sarcasm

I honestly didn't give any thought to the race of the cop, which to me is odd.


"don't turn this into a race thing."

Living in America is a race thing. We have a very long way to go before we are the colar blind society that the feel good types want us to believe we are. I am constantly shocked by the rasism I see every day, from all races

Personally I hate rasism in all forms. My way of dealing with it is to make fun of it wtih this type of assinine in your face comments, that seem to offend some people. But I learned it from an old black man so it must be o k

[swampsniper]

Couple of years ago, while on the way with the Grandparents of one of them to view July 4th fireworks, a couple of kids were shooting green plastic water pistols from the rear widows of a car. Next thing grampa knows is blue lights, redlights. Kids out of car, cuffed and leaned over trunk.
Kids scared and crying, old folks about to have strokes. Come on folks, where are we heading? The idiot with a cell phone that called in the report of people shooting from a car, the overreacting cops, it all stinks of an America I don't recognize anymore.
The cell phone caller was probably the N.Y. lady who hustled her two small boys out of the hardware store where I worked, because she did not want them to see the machetes on display, but I don't know where they found those cops!! I know what they look like, they used to come into the store and strike poses in front of the security mirrors, almost strain a gut flexing all those muscles, enough nylon web gear to pull a stuck truck. Man, don't they look cool!!! They scare the crap out of me, not because they are tough, but because they are psychopaths.
It seems they need blind and brutal force to run Iraq, send them over there. They don't belong in the USA.

http://groups.msn.com/Riflephotos

[Andrew Rothman]

There IS sound on the video: http://www.woio.com/global/video/popup/pop_index.asp?ClipID=160175

And I wouldn't have guessed the kid was 9.

And guess what? Kids sometimes DO have real guns!

http://www.woio.com/Global/story.asp?S=1503505

[BamBam]

Semf,
I did read the article:
When informed her son was being arrested, Saunders attempted to pull her son away from the officer

[swampsniper]

ANY NORMAL MOTHER WOULD HAVE TRIED TO GET TO HER KID. You want to see a normal Grandfather in action, try to cuff my Grandson over this kind of silly B.S. I tried to raise my kid not to be afraid of Cops, to respect them. Those Cops seem to be all long gone, however, and no kid I have anything to do with raising will be taught to bootlick petty tyrants.
All any cop had to do was sit down beside the kid and say "Hey, son, what you got there". That would have course, have to be a Cop that understood nine year old boys, and had just a bit of combined common sense and courage.
WHEN WE DO NOT RAISE A STINK OVER STUFF LIKE THIS, WE BECOME PART OF THE PROBLEM.:cuss:

[Sportcat]

I agree with the cop. You've got a person (could be a midget) waving a gun (painted to look like a real gun) around on a public street.

Sure, in a perfect world the officer could walk up and talk niceities to little Johnny, but in the real world, little Johnny might could end up shooting the officer.

Guess we'll wait for Jesse and Al to show up. :cuss:

[Daniel T]

Edited: this kind of thing makes me intemperate.

Please don't apologize for police misconduct, you only make things worse.

[semf]

Semf,
I did read the article:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When informed her son was being arrested, Saunders attempted to pull her son away from the officer
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Saunders, 28, was also charged with obstruction of justice and resisting arrest when she pleaded with police not to arrest her son and to give him a warning, according to a police report.

When informed her son was being arrested, Saunders attempted to pull her son away from the officer but moved away when told to , according to the report.but moved away when told to

[vrwc]

Outstanding Police Work!
If you live in Ohio and would like to comment try these links
http://www.lorainpolice.com/about/chief_message.shtml

[vrwc]

usual disclamer, I wasn't there but from what I can gather this was absurd

[outfieldjack]

I'd try to debate further with you about the police, kids waving "real looking" guns in the street, and the "right thing to do", but your SIGNATURE says it all....

There are two opinions in this debate, Mine which is that you're an idiot, And your's which doesn't matter because you're an idiot.

I think that shows your lack of "openness" to debate..... or maybe "closed-mindedness" to other points of view. Too each his own... you do have a right to your opinion. But please respect others rights to their opinons as well....

Jack

[C.R.Sam]

We seem to have long ago run out of worthwhile input here.
Closin this before it gets any more personal and nasty.

Sam