Which kicks harder, 45-70 or shotgun shooting slugs?


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scythefwd
August 29, 2009, 07:34 AM
Seriously, which will beat you up more? I hear about the massive recoil from the .45-70 every now and again, but after looking at the numbers on some factory loads I don't see why.

I am seeing .45-70 loads using a 300gr bullet at 1880 fps. The slugs I shoot are either 438 grains at 1600 fps or 400 grains at 1700 fps. The recoil calculator at beartooth bullets shows that the shotgun is way heavier recoiling. For those who have shot both, preferable from an interchangeable barreled gun, do you find this to be true?

Just one of those curiosity things.

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JWF III
August 29, 2009, 07:50 AM
It all depends on the guns.

A Trapdoor (rifle), shooting Trapdoor loads, the shotgun would easily beat out. A Marlin, or a Ruger, shooting Garrets or Corbons will probably beat out the shotgun. An old break-open, single-shot, 12 gauge, will probably beat out anything.

Then there's the whole stock fit thing. Any gun that fits you well, is going to kick you less than one that doesn't (in similar cartridges).

Wyman

tango2echo
August 29, 2009, 08:05 AM
+1


t2e

TomADC
August 29, 2009, 11:09 AM
My trapdoor isn't real bad even with 405gr bullets but slugs kick harder IMHO.

scythefwd
August 29, 2009, 11:19 AM
Well, the 45-70 barrel I am looking at is for a single shot rifle weighing in at about 8.5 lbs (with a bull barrel). My shotgun weighs between 7.5 and 9 lbs depending on which barrel I have in it. The hardest kicking slugs are when I use the lighter barrel.

browningguy
August 29, 2009, 11:43 AM
My Browning 1885 using standard factory loads is a pussycat, even with the curved steel butt plate. But when you load it up with 400 gr. bullets at 2300 FPS it will put a butt whuppin on you.

jpwilly
August 29, 2009, 11:53 AM
IMO both are very similar but Magnum Slugs win out.

usmc1371
August 29, 2009, 02:47 PM
my guide gun is pretty fun with most factory 45-70 loads but the bufalo bore 405 grainers take all the fun out of it, other than those I would give the edge to the shotgun. I would rather shoot my 375 hnh over eathier the hot 45-70 or the slugs/3'' turkey loads. Shoot the 338-378 weatherby without the muzzle brake once and the shotgun won't feel all that bad even with the hottest slugs you can find..

jpwilly
August 29, 2009, 02:56 PM
^^^ No thanks I like my collar bone right where it is.

LeonCarr
August 29, 2009, 03:05 PM
IME Shotgun slugs kick more. In terms of foot-pounds of recoil, shooting 3 inch magnum 1 1/4 ounce slugs from an 18 inch barreled shotgun is like shooting 500 grain bullets from a .458 Winchester Magnum.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

Maverick223
August 29, 2009, 05:01 PM
It depends upon the guns...my Saiga S-12 shotgun is fairly easy recoiling due to the action...my buddies H&R single is well...vicious. In comparison my Browning 1885 High Wall is a bit worse than the S-12, but much lighter than a single. It sounds as ifyou are considering a 1885 or a Sharps 1874, so I think that you will be fine...they are relatively heavy, and just a BLAST to shoot. Get it and enjoy. :)

But when you load it up with 400 gr. bullets at 2300 FPS it will put a butt whuppin on you.I am in the process of acquiring components to reload for my 1885...and want to create a few "special" reloads similar to the one you describe...any advice/recipes on how to get a 405gr. JSP to 2250-2300fps? It would save me ages in research and load development. Note: Don't worry, I still intend to work up to the load, I would just like a recipe to work up to. Thanks in advance.

76shuvlinoff
August 29, 2009, 08:29 PM
I wrecked my shoulder in a motorcycle accident 6 years ago.

I put a pad on my 30-30 and shoot my 870 from the hip. :o Big bores and magnum loads?.... fugetaboutit

scythefwd
August 29, 2009, 09:16 PM
Maverick,
Actually, I am looking at a 45-70 barrel for my optima elite which is a single shot break action :).

405 Grain bullet 1852 fps...
54 grains of H322. MAX LOAD according to my lee manual. The closest I can get you is a

400 Grain Jacketed bullet at 2108 fps.
53 gr of H4198 .. also a MAX LOAD and has a pressure of 49100 PSI.

I don't have any load data for a 2200 fps or faster shot and I won't speculate if your gun can handle these loads. The manual states that these are "only for modern bolt actions or ruger single shot arms."

Now a 350 Gr. bullet will reach 2300 fps with only 56 grains of H4198. That is a compressed load and it will reach 50k psi.

76shuvlinoff - I want something suitable for all the game on my continent. My main round is a .308 or a .30-30 when I hunt rifle.

nathan
August 29, 2009, 09:41 PM
in my experience, the 12 g was more but the recoil pad help absorb the shock.
Now try the M 48 8 mm mauser using Turk surplus. That thing bruise my shoulder pretty bad after less than 50 rounds. But I had a good time shooting with it for cheap .

Maverick223
August 29, 2009, 09:46 PM
I don't have any load data for a 2200 fps or faster shot and I won't speculate if your gun can handle these loads. The manual states that these are "only for modern bolt actions or ruger single shot arms."Thanks for the info., but I am looking for loads that exceed that velocity...FWIW the 1885 will handle anything that a Ruger No. 1 will, my Lyman's 49th Ed. lists a similar load as: 405Gr. Cast + 57.0Gr. XMR-2015 = 2063fps @ 38.7kCUP and that is out of a 24in. barrel...my 1885 has a 28" bbl. :)

lefteyedom
August 30, 2009, 12:03 AM
I have had a 45/70 single shot H&R handi rifle and my everyday in the truck gun is a single shot H&R 12 gauge with a 20" barrel. Hands down the shotgun kicks worse with slugs. You really have to want to shoot a slug out of that thing. The 45/70 with 405grn bullets was stout the light weight 12 Gauge with slugs is self punishment.:D... ( I am a sick pup)

browningguy
August 30, 2009, 12:15 AM
Maverick, PM sent.

Maverick223
August 30, 2009, 12:42 AM
Thanks BG, reply sent. :)

Sunray
August 30, 2009, 03:06 AM
"...which will beat you up more?..." Depends on the firearm.

Nick5182
August 30, 2009, 03:16 AM
From my experience, a 45-70 kicks like a 20 gauge without a recoil pad. I think the recoil is very manageable from a 45-70.

Maverick223
August 31, 2009, 12:25 PM
I can shoot that .30-06 all day with 165 gr. shells in it (220 gr. shells are a different story).I am the same way, I had a ammo can full of old corrosive 06' that I burned up in the course of an afternoon...no problem, but firing that H&R all day...I'll pass. Mind you I don't consider myself recoil sensitive and have shot rifles up to .458WM/.416Rigby (bolt guns) and find the dangerous game rifles to be more pleasant to shoot despite the greater recoil. :)

uvausmc
August 31, 2009, 04:28 PM
I can shoot my Marlin 1895 Guide Gun with pretty heavy loads all day. My 870 with federal slugs is a different story. I'm not recoil sensitive but I can only stand so many slugs before i have to call it a day.

scythefwd
August 31, 2009, 04:50 PM
uvausmc,
I find my mossberg 500 with the federal slugs to be pretty comfortable (truball slugs, not sure if they are the hard hitting or the soft hitting in the lineup for federal).

lencac
August 31, 2009, 06:50 PM
I had a little Marlin lever-action moving 405 gr.ers at about 1900 fps handloads and it was an impressive handful but I think my Model 11 with slugs wins.
The 458 Win mag I had beats them both handily. That moved 500 gr. at 2400 fps. and I've seen stars shooting that thing :eek:

Double Naught Spy
August 31, 2009, 08:40 PM
The slugs I shoot are either 438 grains at 1600 fps or 400 grains at 1700 fps. The recoil calculator at beartooth bullets shows that the shotgun is way heavier recoiling.

Most shotguns have larger buttstocks than many rifles (in my experience). So the "heavier" recoil of the shotgun is actually spread out over a larger area and hence may not give the same perceived recoil pulse than if it was shot with a much more narrow buttstock. As already discussed, the weight of the firearms, barrel lengths, etc. all have a role to play. I have a better recoil system on my shotgun, so I can shoot it a lot more than my .45-70 (325 gr. Leverevolution ammo) off the bench. Of the bench, neither is truly comfortable to shooting. Offhand, I can shoot a lot more and more of my body moves with the recoil pulse, hence converting more into motion than into impact.

So what is it that you will be doing? If you are talking about 1-5 shots during hunting, neither should be a problem for you. If you are talking about shooting at the bench, both will likely become unfun for you inside of 10-20 rounds. Prone, won't be much better (if at all) than off the bench. Standing? I don't see why you should have problems before 30-50.

Note that you can get some of the reduced recoil slugs that tend to have a slightly slower powder and draw out the recoil over a longer period of time. Total recoil force may not be greatly reduced between 1300 pfs regular load slugs and 1300 fps reduced recoil slugs, but the recoil pulse will be longer, hence being more of a shove instead of impact, and hence beating you up less.

1911Tuner
August 31, 2009, 09:05 PM
It depends.

How heavy is the rifle and how heavy is the shotgun?

What is the velocity of the projectiles?

What is the mass of each projectile?

What is the powder charge in each cartridge?

Is the 45-70 loaded with 70 grains of black powder or 40 grains of smokeless? If so, you have to add the mass of the powder charge to the mass of the bullet. If the bullet's weight is 420 grains, and the powder charge weighs 70 grains...that's almost 15% of the total mass, while the smokeless charge is less than 10% of the total.

What about the stock design? All else being equal, stocks with a lot of drop make recoil hurt more, giving the impression that it's more severe. If the stock directs it more straight back, it moves you further than the other one...again, all else equal.

Maverick223
August 31, 2009, 09:47 PM
Is the 45-70 loaded with 70 grains of black powder or 40 grains of smokeless? If so, you have to add the mass of the powder charge to the mass of the bullet. If the bullet's weight is 420 grains, and the powder charge weighs 70 grains...that's almost 15% of the total mass, while the smokeless charge is less than 10% of the total. Good explanation, I have often wondered why the powder charge makes a difference in the recoil...that explains the phenomena very well...it also has mass. Thanks for the lesson. :)

chute2thrill
September 1, 2009, 12:44 AM
Recoil pads... My buddy has an old mossberg without one and slugs hurt... Another buddy has an 870 with one and its much more manageable... That little cushion goes a long ways...

Newton
September 1, 2009, 02:52 AM
After fitting a Remington Super Cell recoil pad to my 870, recoil is no longer an issue.

scythefwd
September 2, 2009, 03:47 PM
1911tuner,
The rifle will be about 8.5 lbs without scope and with bull barrel. I'm guessing standard factory loads, which are mentioned earlier. The shotgun is 7.5 lbs with the velocities mentioned earlier.

The shotgun doesn't have a buttpad, but I don't think it needs it. The rifle does have a pretty good pad... nice and squishy.

H2O MAN
September 2, 2009, 04:50 PM
I can't wait to find out...

My old HK/Benelli M1 S90 has a nice recoil pad and it still kicks like a mule with magnum loads, 00 and slugs are less violent.

My .45-70 Guide Gun has a real nice aftermarket recoil pad installed and it wil be a little heavier than your average Marlin GG.
I have several boxes of Hornady 45-70 Govt 325gr Leverevolution just waiting to be fired :evil:

Maverick223
September 2, 2009, 05:02 PM
My .45-70 Guide Gun has a real nice aftermarket recoil pad installed and it wil be a little heavier than your average Marlin GG.
I have several boxes of Hornady 45-70 Govt 325gr Leverevolution just waiting to be firedWhatcha waiting for...get to blastin', a good ole .45-70 is a blast to shoot. :D

H2O MAN
September 2, 2009, 05:08 PM
My Marlin has not returned from Clements yet... I should have it in a week or two though...

highlander 5
September 2, 2009, 05:26 PM
My experience is with rifle/shotgun of equal weight and factory ammo the recoil is near the same,but with the upper end loads of 45/70 in a 7-8 lb rifle your in for some serious pounding. The Lyman reloading manual has a formula to compute recoil and the 45/70 with upper end loads recoil is in the 50-60 ft lbs of recoil assuming an 7.5 lb rifle. The only rifle I've found to tame such recoil is my Sharps Long Range Express and it weighs in at 13+ pounds. I've fired a Ruger No 1 in 45/70 with heavy loads (500 gr bullet at 1800 fps) and a No 1 in 375 H&H and the recoil was about the same and the 375 was heavier by at least a pound.

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