[BigG]

The three rifles on the cover of my current work, "The Art of the Rifle," remain the three rifles of maximum interest at this time. You would never suspect this from perusal of the specialty press, but the manufacturers of those three weapons - the "Co-pilot," the Blaser 93, and the Steyr Scout - are not noticeably interested in promotion.

1. Can anyone tell me what he is talking about? I know he is a master (cough, cough) of the English language, but this does not seem like a coherent thought to me.

2. My copy of AOTR has a gold plated M1 Rifle on it. He must have a new printing out?

[El Tejon]

BigG, yes, there was a special edition released a couple of years ago featuring the weapons Uncle Jeff is citing.

His M.A. is in History, not English.

[ceetee]

My take is that these three happen to be his main interest at this stage in his life. He is saying the only reason they're not being lauded to the heavens in the "popular" press is that the makers have less interest in marketing, and more interest in producing quality merchandise.

Which, IMO, is the way it should be.

[Thumper]

Seems coherent enough...and his choices are no more off the wall than mine would be.

Co-Pilot: Custom gun...really neat, but who really needs a take down lever action?

Blaser 93: Can't argue with him there. Like buttah.

HIS OWN DESIGN Steyr Scout: Borrowed one for a week last year. Truly great gun, but overpriced, regardless of what the good Col. says. Easy mounting and quick shooting. Ching sling is excellent, once you understand how to work it. I love this thing...one of these days, I'll find a deal on one.

I think his main point, even if he didn't intend to make it, is that the guns he likes aren't moving fast enough and he blames the manufacturer...wonder how much he makes per Scout?

[Art Eatman]

Cooper has stated quite firmly that he has no connection with Steyr and he receives no royalties. Based on what quite a few folks at TFL and here have said about the man (their own first-hand knowledge), I believe Cooper.

Based upon some correspondence with him, a dozen or so years back, I fully believe that the lives the ethics which he has stated are so important to him. This pretty wells shows through his extensive writings.

Disagreeing with his conclusions can be quite appropriate. At times I do so, myownself. Questioning his ethics is not a righteous thing.

Art

[BigG]

Like Uncle Art, I don't believe that Mr. Cooper gets anything for the Steyr Scout, and therein may lie the rub, the cynic in me chirps.

When you think of all the worthless sports figures getting obscene amounts of money for promoting things unrelated to sports it boggles the mind that S-M couldn't do a few ads with J/C endorsing a S/S and slip the old gaffer a few $$.

It just might sell a few rifles. You never know.

The other two rifles I have no idea about because I have no experience with them but the S/S is a keeper. I'll defer to J/C on the other two because he has not lied to me yet that I know of. :cool:

[HankB]

Here's a quote from Cooper I wholeheartedly agree with: Being of the old school - the very old school - I wish to warn youthful readers against putting their faith in "gun writers." These people have a right to their opinions, but these opinions should not be taken as incontrovertible. As a youth I was led astray on a number of subjects and had to learn of my errors by personal field experience. The fact that a man "has been there and done that" does not necessarily mean that he knows what he is talking about. Note that Cooper is most certainly a gun writer.

As for his three rifles . . . Co-Pilot is interesting, and may fill a niche. Maybe I don't appreciate it since I'm not into lever actions. Blaser is an interesting design, but I'm not sure how this very pricey rifle would perform under adverse conditions. And the Scout is a nice rifle, but it's priced at about twice what the features and workmanship justify.

[ScottS]

The three rifles on the cover of my current work, "The Art of the Rifle," remain the three rifles of maximum interest at this time. You would never suspect this from perusal of the specialty press, but the manufacturers of those three weapons - the "Co-pilot," the Blaser 93, and the Steyr Scout - are not noticeably interested in promotion.
Can anyone tell me what he is talking about? I know he is a master (cough, cough) of the English language, but this does not seem like a coherent thought to me.

I think I understand what you're asking. His sentence structure is stilted at best, but I think he's trying to say this:

The three rifles on the cover of my current work, "The Art of the Rifle," remain the three rifles of maximum interest at this time. You would never suspect this (that these rifles were the ones of maximum interest) from perusal of the specialty press (reading the gun rags), but (that is because) the manufacturers of those three weapons - the "Co-pilot," the Blaser 93, and the Steyr Scout - are not noticeably interested in promotion (are not big advertisers.)

Or, put more succinctly (but less poetically):

The three rifles on the cover of my current work, "The Art of the Rifle," remain the three rifles of maximum interest at this time. You would never suspect it from reading the gun rags, though, because the manufacturers of those three weapons - the "Co-pilot," the Blaser 93, and the Steyr Scout - are not big advertisers.

I think that's it.

Scott

[BigG]

Scott, thanks, guess you need a degree in Swahili to understand ole J/C's ruminations anymore. BTW, I was being facetious when I said he was a "master" of the English language. Like you didn't know! :p

I am still confused; are the named items of maximum interest to HIM or are they the best sellers in the shoppes? I think I know the answer but old Coop needs to take a lesson from Napoleon, i.e., "be clear." :scrutiny:

[bogie]

Saw a guy shooting a scout a coupla years ago. He was quite happy with 2" groups at 100 yards. So I didn't show him any of the groups from my $400 Savage...

I _am_ however, going to set my recently purchased Yugo mauser up as a scout-type rifle.

[Thumper]

Disagreeing with his conclusions can be quite appropriate. At times I do so, myownself. Questioning his ethics is not a righteous thing.

Not questioning his ethics, Art...I really wanted to know how much he got. He did design the rifle...and at SHOT in '99, he was hawking his and Lindy's books in the Steyr booth. I think "no connection with Steyr" might be a little misleading.

If he says he makes no royalties, that's enough for me.

That being said, there's very little Coop says I disagree with. I have no problem with him making money on whatever he does. He's certainly obtained some of mine through the years.

[George Hill]

I remember the first time I saw a Steyr Scout. I remember feeling disappointed. The way Jeff talked about it, I was expecting it to be imbued with magic powers. What I found was an over priced, underdeveloped rifle that could be out done easily by an entry level Savage.

He is spot on about the other two rifles... the stuff of dreams. I so yearn for a Co-Pilot... *sigh*

[Ian]

A big problem with Steyr Scout sales is parts and mag availability. This past summer I interned in a gun shop that according the owner (and I believe him) had been the biggest retail seller of Scouts in the country. The shop's been trying to get firing pins and magazines for the dang things for about 18 months, and as of late August (when I left) they still didn't have any. It seems the parts importer (Dynamit Nobel) has little interest in supplying parts.

'Course, the gun's price tag doesn't really help things.

[Chuck Dye]

Statement one: 3 specific gadgets are of current interest to me.

Statement two: there is no sign of my interest in the 3 gadgets in the gun rags (or other specialty press, whatever that may be) due to the manufacturers' lack of interest in promotion.

Inference: the Colonel has noted the lack of interest in promotion as it relates to his interest in the gadgets and found it worth mentioning in print.

It is not clear (to me, anyway) whether the lack of interest in promotion written of is a lack of interest in promoting the products, or a lack of interest in using the Colonel's interest to promote the products. I am not nearly familiar enough with Colonel Cooper to guess whether this is a complaint or a compliment. I like the ambiguity. I suspect this is about as close as you get to a whine from Colonel Cooper.

[BigG]

Oh well, about 30 years from now everybody will want a Steyr Scout which will be recognized as a true classic. It's the same way with the .45 Auto. He beat the drum for that at least 20 - 30 years before people caught on. Now look at it, 45 Autos coming out your ears. Too bad Jeff will not be around in 30 years to smirk and say, "told ya so." ;)

[Thumper]

Co-Pilot is interesting

I wonder if Townsend Whelen would agree? :D

[Keith]

You can buy a "Co-Pilot" off the shelf for about $500.

Jim West of Anchorage began cutting down the barrels on Marlin 1895's, upgrading the sights and making them in take-down configuration. It was intended for for Alaskan Bush Pilots as a something they could take down and fit under the seat. If anyone followed that Treadwell thing you might have noticed that the pilot that came into the camp could do nothing beyond radio for help while watching bears chew up the remains of Treadwell and his girlfriend.

Anyway, when Marlin finally caught on they introduced the Guide Gun, which is a pretty close factory approximation of the Co-Pilot. The sights still suck and have to be upgraded to make the rifle useful, but other than that... it's the Co-Pilot. Oh, of course it doesn't take down, but that's only of interest to a few people, like pilots for instance.

Keith

[Standing Wolf]

The fact that a man "has been there and done that" does not necessarily mean that he knows what he is talking about.

Yep. The gun writers whose opinions I take seriously are right here at the High Road.

[Carnitas]

Keith,

Where are you seeing Co-Pilots for $500.

$1500 seems like more real price for a used one since they are closer to $2K new.

FWIW I always though a Co-pilot would be a great patrol rifle. Accurate as far as a cop would ever have reason to shoot. Good penetration for shootings around vehicles. Very PC. Easy to stash in a locker between shifs. etc.

[ScottS]

Where are you seeing Co-Pilots for $500.

$1500 seems like more real price for a used one since they are closer to $2K new.

I think what he means is that you can get the tactical equivalent of the Co-Pilot by gettting a Guide Gun and putting decent sights on it. You pretty much get all the cabability (minus the take-down), for 1/4 of the price.

Scott

[Mushinto]

It's English with a capital "E". Some people may not be used to that.
The Colonel writes with a style that is certainly his own. I could read him all day long.
ML

[BluesBear]

Col Cooper and his friends, developed and perfected the concept of the Scout. He freely told anyone who would listen exactly what was what in it's design. Steyr was the only manufacturer to think enough of it to actually mass produce and market it.

I am sure that Remington or Winchester or even Savage could produce it nearly as well but for less money. Come to think of it didn't Savage try it for a while? I am kinda suprised that Ruger didn't give it a go.
(no RKBA commants against Rugwer please that's in another thread)


I have no trouble understanding Cooper's writings, but then I have been reading him for almost 40 years. I wish I could write as well or as knowledgeably.

As for writing in the 3rd person "we", Cooper has always been gratious in his aknowledgement of the assistance of his staff at Gunsite and beyond. He doesn't pretend that all of "his" ideas were conceived in a vacuum.

Wasn't it Cooper who said, "A person is entitled to create their own opinions, but not their own facts." ?

[444]

It seemed perfectly clear to me, but then, I am not a master of the English language either. The most I can claim is being master of my dog: and that is only because he is a willing participant.

Whether or not he uses good correct English, he has made a living as a professional writer and is highly successful at it. Dispite the fact that he is now in his declining years his written word attracts enough attention to be picked apart word by word on internet forums. That says a lot more about his writing than most.

[Topgun]

"Everybody oughtta have a .45 and a Steyr Scout."


of course, that's what I read in ALL his writings.

:rolleyes:

[BluesBear]

"Everybody oughtta have a .45 and a Steyr Scout."

of course, that's what I read in ALL his writings.


Perhaps a little re-reading is in order then.

What you will find in A LOT of his writings is that "If all you have is a .45 and A Scout, you'll be well prepared for just about anything.

Col Cooper has expounded on several occasions about the variations of the Scout, not just one particular type or brand.
He has also mentioned numerous other handguns that he would feel comfortable with.

He doesn't say his way is the only way, just his way is a damn good way.

If you have read any sizeable amount of Cooper you will have noticed that he has changed somewhat over the years. Changed because there became a better way or an easier way, but not just change for the sake of change.

To say that Cooper thinks everybody oughtta have a .45 and a Steyr Scout is as stupid as saying that Elmer Keith thought everybody oughtta have a 4" .44 Magnum and a .270 Ackley Improved.

If any of us EVER manages to influence as many people about anything in this world as Jeff Cooper* has then maybe you can brag and roll your eyes but you still won't have the right to twist his words.


*or Elmer Keith, or Bill Jordan, or P.O. Ackley, or Skeeter Skelton, or Chuck Taylor, or Charles Askins, or Col. Fairbourn or......

[Topgun]

The linear thinking and literal constriction of many gun enthusiasts never ceases to amaze me.

No wonder "they" don't trust us.

:neener:

[Carnitas]

I think saying... " All you need is a Scout and a 45.." is another way of saying you dont need a high cap 9mm, and a Desert Eagle, three trigger pulls on your gun, and a Benili Super 90 with seven after market accessories hung on it, and a Ar-15 with cammo furnature laser, holo sight, and a 357 Super Win Mag Nitro Express with a 150 power scope, etc, etc.

And he's fully right correct about that. 99 problems out of a hundred that can be solved with a firearm can be well solved by a skilled shooter with a 45 and a scout.

He has also said things to the effect that you're more than welcome to have all those other things but that you should understand their nature.

[Mike Irwin]

Don't need to have a degree in English to be a master of the English language...

Think I'm kidding?

Winston churchill

[Tim Burke]

HIS OWN DESIGN Steyr Scout: Borrowed one for a week last year. Truly great gun...<snip> I love this thing...one of these days, I'll find a deal on one.

The CDNN (http://www.cdnninvestments.com/) catalog (available for downloading online) lists new Steyr Scout packages, in Cooper format or in black, for $1200.

[BigG]

Don't need to have a degree in English to be a master of the English language...

Since this thread is about His Jeffness, I have to ask: Mike, are you saying Cooper, as well as Winnie, is a master of the English language? :uhoh:

[Art Eatman]

:) BigG, it seems to me that Cooper's use of the language reflects a degree of precision that is generally lacking in much of the writing of people half his age and younger. Has more to do with his background and the way our language was taught, some 70 years ago.

One thing that always puzzled me is that I read Cooper, and think I understand what he means. Then, I'd read folks' comments at TFL or here, and they're imputing meanings to his ideas that seem completely contradictory to what I understood him to mean. Dangfino.

Art

[Mike Irwin]

I don't know, G, you're the one who was making a "cough cough" implication of some sort...

[BigG]

Mike, any implication I made as to the excellence of Herr Cooper's literary ability was tongue in cheek, to say the least! I do agree with a lot of his stuff, but his style could suck a golf ball thru a garden hose, so to speak!

[Joe Demko]

As I've said elsewhere, my problem isn't with Mr. Cooper. It's with his fans who, in their enthusiasm for him, seem to get him confused with the other JC.

[BigG]

Hmm. JC = JC, don't it? ;)

Seriously, fanaticism of any stripe makes me hurl.TM :barf:

[Destructo6]

The study of History is a good way to become a master of the English language, and others, depending. If you're not reading, you're writing. If you're not doing either, you're failing. At least that's my experience (not the failing part).

Well, Cooper is an old guy with a lot of experience. He has some good things to say and others not so great. As with any other writers, I'll farm his work for what makes sense and file the rest.

I do find it annoying, and maybe this interfers with reading Cooper, that some appeal to his authority as though his is the final word. Such as saying "Cooper said ..." as though that should end the argument.

[toro]

Author, teacher, scholar, philosopher -- John Dean "Jeff" Cooper is internationally known as the father of the modern technique of the pistol. He is much more. A shooter, hunter and avid appreciator of achievement of all kinds, he is a connoisseur of excellence whose leadership inspires those it touches.



Jeff Cooper Graduated from Standford in the spring of 1941. After he was in two wars, he decided to pursue graduate study and in 1963 he enrolled in the Master's Degree program at the University of California at Riverside, a campus close to home. He earned his Master's Degree in history in 1968. I'd say that Jeff has a very good education.


Mrs. Toro


_____________________________________________
Job 42: 1-3
Then Job answered the Lord, and said, I know that thou canst do everything, and that no thought can be withholden from thee. Who is he that hideth counsel withtout knowledge.

[JohnKSa]

He doesn't say his way is the only way, just his way is a damn good way.
It would be more correct to say:

"He doesn't say his way is the only way, he just ridicules those that take a different path.

[swingset]

I won't beat around the bush, I just don't like Jeff Cooper.

There, I said it. Fault me, but my English was clear and direct and everyone understood me.

Swingset=1
Cooper=0

Thank you.

[CMcDermott]

uh, BluesBear

putting Elmer Keith and the 270 caliber together kind makes me wonder what have you been smoking? Make it a 400 Whelan (he used an original G&H example for many years), or one of his wildcat calibers (333 OKH or 334 OKH), but definitely not a 270, which was championed by his favorite write to fued with, Jack O'Connor.

As far as Jeff Cooper's writing style, his english is very correct, but being written in third person can be difficult to understand for people who aren't used to it's sometimes peculiar constructions. Read some Victorian era novels if you want to practice your decoding skills, thrid person narrative was a very popular writing style back then.

[BluesBear]

CMcD, I wasn't trying to imply that Elmer Keith was a proponent of the .270 class of cartridges. I merely used the .270 Ackley Improved as an example of a commonly known wildcat cartridge.

Anyone who has read anything more than a modicum of Keith knows of his love and admiration for wildcat cartridges.

Being an honorary old fart, I remember the OKH cartridges. In fact I semi-vividly recall reading his tales of expeditions using these. But I felt if I had mentioned them I would have to explain what they were, since there hasn't been much said about them in the past 20 years or so.
I am sure that Keith would be pleased to see that cartridges such as the .338 Laupa have help prove the validity of his theories and experiments.


I would have probably been better of wording it like this;

"To say that Cooper thinks everybody oughtta have a .45 and a Steyr Scout is as stupid as saying that Elmer Keith thought everybody oughtta have a 4" .44 Magnum and a high-powered rifle chambered in some semi-obscure wilcat cartridge."

:D




By the way, having been born with deficent lungs, we don't smoke, anything. Never have, never will.
However, an occasional Gosling's Black Seal & Coke or 2 (or 3) has been known to have the power to cloud our mind. ;)

[toro]

Although I loved to shoot before I went to Gunsite, I had no idea how it would improve my shooting ability. Jeff Cooper was a great help to me and I think with his help I was greatly improved after my visit there. I really believe he loves teaching. I am glad I went when I did as he was in his prime as a teacher. The one thing I appreciated about his school was that there was no foul language. I felt very comfortable there. To make fun of Jeff Cooper or to say you don't understand him, only shows that maybe you don't have the education you need in reading skills.

Sorry, but there are people like me that Jeff has helped. We think a lot of him and admire him. I don't believe in making fun of Jeff Cooper or Jesus Christ. Because in the long run you will be the looser. It's OK not to like him, but when you bring Jesus Christ into the mix that is a shame.

Mrs. Toro


___________________________________________
1 Chronicles 28: 5-7
And of all my sons, (for the Lord hath given me many sons,) he hath chosen Solomon my son to sit upon the throne of the kingdom of the Lord over Israel. And he said unto me, Solomon thy son, he shall build my house and my courts; for I have chosen him to be my son, and I will be his father.

[BluesBear]

Mrs Toro,

As I said in a post a few days ago...

A lady can never be too tall, too pretty or too intelligent.

:)

Thank you for being you.

[Marvin Gardens]

I wonder how many of Colonel Cooper's harshest critics have ever had a conversation with him. I would not fall into the category of one of his "friends" but I have taken a class from him and have visited with him and Mrs. Cooper (look up the word "gracious" in the dictionary and their ought to be a photo of Mrs. Cooper) in their home on a few occaisions. My impression of Colonel Cooper is that he is a person that admires excellence and has a very broad knowledge of many subjects. A comment I've heard often from others who have met him was that they were somewhat intimidated by him. The reason that seems to be universally given is that they don't want to say something stupid in front of him after reading his writings since their teens. I found him to be somewhat reserved although he enjoys conversation but is not much on "small talk". During our last conversation he had a great deal to say about the situation in the Middle East and was extremely well versed on the history of the area and it's peoples. I have asked him several questions over the last few years (mostly firearms related) that he unashamedly answered "I don't know, but it would be interesting to find out". The first Steyr Scout I saw was hanging on the wall of a local gun store. My reaction to it was that it had to be the ugliest and most overpriced firearm I had ever seen. The second Steyr Scout I saw (and the first I one that I fired) belonged to Colonel Cooper. I listened to him discuss the merits of the Scout concept one afternoon and two years later own two of them, a .308 and a .376. I've gone through a Gunsite Rifle Course and hunted two years with the .308 and have run into none of the problems you read about on these boards. In short, I am very happy with the Steyr Scout. I would also like to have a Co-Pilot and a Blaser but the specific need isn't there for me. I am also very happy that I had the opportunity to meet and talk to Colonel Cooper and don't believe that he writes for the purpose of satisfying advertisers or stroking his ego.

Regards,

Marvin

[Highland Ranger]

Oh well, about 30 years from now everybody will want a Steyr Scout which will be recognized as a true classic. It's the same way with the .45 Auto. He beat the drum for that at least 20 - 30 years before people caught on. Now look at it, 45 Autos coming out your ears. Too bad Jeff will not be around in 30 years to smirk and say, "told ya so."

I think the AWB (10 round mag limit) had a lot to do with the explosive popularity of the 1911 in recent years.

Why bother with 10 rounds of 9mm or .40's when you can get 10 45's . . . . and 7 or 8 isn't so bad either when 10 is the max.

Now if the AWB is lifted, we'll see if the 1911 boom continues . . .

[MicroBalrog]

think the AWB (10 round mag limit) had a lot to do with the explosive popularity of the 1911 in recent years.

Absolutely. In fact, I believe it's Neil Smith that wrote "The 1911 Effect" on this very subject.

[buzz_knox]

Now if the AWB is lifted, we'll see if the 1911 boom continues

Yes, if the ban lifts and people can return to the altar of "spray and pray" magazines, we'll see if the ergonomic benefits of the 1911 platform (as recognized by tactical units throughout this country who are able to buy cheap original capacity magazines but pass them up for the 1911) are once again ignored.

The ban assisted the 1911 only because it forced people to look away from high capacity compensating for lack of skill and the "wow, lot's of rounds must be cool" factors and seeing that Ol' Slabsides has a lot to offer. Personally, I've got high cap weapons out the yin-yang. But I still look to the 1911 as one of the ultimate expressions of modern self-defense implements.

[seeker_two]

"Everybody oughtta have a .45 and a Steyr Scout."

And a .22 rifle...

And a .22 pistol...

And a lupara (double-barrel, exposed-hammer shotgun)...

And a .44 Special revolver (for those who don't like autos)...

And a 10mm Auto (for those who want more than a .45ACP)...

He's advocated several firearms in his writings. And, though I disagree w/ a lot of his positions (esp. on the .38 Special & the "short-range" of the .45-70), his experiences give his opinions credibility.

BTW, I don't have a degree in English and I wasn't raised by parents who spoke Queen's English (where I live, "ain't" IS a word). But I've NEVER had any problem understanding the good Colonel's writings.

[Archer]

You know, it seems to me that those of you on The High Road would understand that one of my best experiences of the past year was a three hour conversation with Jeff on the subject of the item he is wielding in this photo.


As for those of you who do not appreciate such things... well, it is most definitely your loss.

(It is a precise replica of the odd copper axe of the Iceman, discovered in the Alps)