SAGE EBR Mod 0 Vs SAGE EBR Mod 1


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paratroop23
August 30, 2009, 09:12 PM
This question is basically for H2O Man! He's the resident expert on SAGE Stocks, but I'll make this question public because there might be others out there that have some good input.

Which is the better stock? I know that the Mod 1 is a little lighter(weight), but are there any other benefits?

Thanks!

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Onmilo
August 31, 2009, 11:35 AM
Mod 1 Modularity of the stock and grip.
More compact profile and lighter weight.

Little extras like numbered rail slots and included accessories like the vertical foregrip.

Mod 0 would be much more common stock in actual use.

I chose the EBR M4 stock, no regrets.
http://www.fototime.com/42C697FEF448DD2/standard.jpg

paratroop23
August 31, 2009, 09:14 PM
So the only real difference is the stock and the extra handgrip? The extra weight of the Mod 0 is due to the stock.

What's more compact about it? Do you see any differences in accuracy between the standard stock and your new set-up?

H2O MAN
August 31, 2009, 09:47 PM
The M14ALCS Designated Marksman, M14, EBR Tactical Aluminum Chassis Stock with telescoping butt stock, adjustable cheek rest and butt pad is the most compact, most versatile and heaviest SAGE EBR stock.

The M14ALCS/CV CQB M14, EBR Tactical Aluminum Chassis Stock with M4/M16 style receiver extension tube accepts several different butt stocks. It can be the lightest SAGE EBR stock and it's the foundation for the Mod 1 stock.

Both can accept a VFG and both stocks are equally accurate.




The History and Development of the SAGE Enhanced Battle Rifle (EBR) chassis stock system (http://athenswater.com/M1A_Scout_Squad_EBR.htm)

Onmilo
August 31, 2009, 11:09 PM
My rifle was already accurized and I have noted a slight improvement in overall accuracy using the SAGE stock, namely a wider variety of loads show more consistency.

If you look at my picture you will notice lightening cuts and holes around the magazine well which remove unnecessary material and reduce the weight of the stock, also the forearm is a bit shorter than the MOD 0 stock which also trims weight.

What I said about compact profile means the overall appearance of the stock is trimmer, in actuality, the Mod 1 & EBR M4 stocks make the overall length of the weapon longer than the Mod 0 with the stocks fully collapsed.

Both stocks feature a full length lower rail and any king of vertical foregrip/light/bipod can be fitted to all styles of stocks.

The Mod 1 goes a step above the Mod 0 and EBR M4 by extending the side rails the full length of the forearm and the slots are numbered making replacement of accessories on the exact spot they were prior to removal a bit more certain. A nice touch that can be special ordered on all SAGE stocks if desired.

P.B.Walsh
August 31, 2009, 11:20 PM
How good are these stocks vs. Troy's M14/M1A stocks?

H2O MAN
September 1, 2009, 11:01 AM
P.B.Walsh How good are these stocks vs. Troy's M14/M1A stocks?

I worked on a prototype of the M14 MCS with Steve TROY and liked the ability to run optics with B.U.I.S. without a cheek riser.

You give up the factory M14 iron sights when you use the TROY and it's heavier than the SAGE.

The SOCOM 16 is at home in the TROY and the 18.0", 18.5" and 22.0" variants are more accurate in the SAGE.
This difference has to do with barrel harmonics, rigidity and how the barrel reacts to the op rod guide block vs. the front band.

There was a slight issue with the front band on the 1st generation (3 screw) of TROY stocks making them difficult to field strip.
The 2nd generation TROY has 2 screws securing the front band and I'm told field stripping is much easier.

Also, the SAGE is used by our military in large numbers (TACOM RI is building 300+ M14 EBRs per month)...
any needed product improvements or changes come rather quickly with the SAGE.
The TROY is not used by any military, product improvements and changes come slowly.

I use the SAGE EBR exclusively for my personal rifles.

NOTE: All SAGE EBR stocks have the shorter (chop mod) front end. only the older Mod 0 EBR stocks had the full length front.
The CQB/M4 and Mod 1 never had the full length front.

Onmilo
September 1, 2009, 01:07 PM
If this is a bit confusing,
H20MAN is telling the readers that the older Mod 0 stocks forend extended to just behind the gas cylinder assembly.

If you look at the picture you will see the current chop mod moves the end of the forend and top cover about two inches back from the gas cylinder assembly.

This removes, I would venture to guess, almost a pound of weight off of the stock and overall weight of the rifle.

The experience I have had using the SAGE stock has been very positive.
These stock designs may be had to look at for a traditionalist shooter but what they do is improve the accuracy and consistency of the M14 rifle system without all the special match improvements that are fragile and very hard to maintain on a combat weapon and that can negatively impact the reliability of a combat type rifle.
A BIG improvement in my book.

What I have seen so far is an 18" barrelled SAGE stocked BUSH rifle that was admittedly accurate to begin with is now As accurate as my full size M1A Match Rifle out to the 300 hundred meter range I have available locally.

I intend to take both rifles up to Kankakee when I get a chance and test them at longer ranges to see how close they are.

P.B.Walsh
September 1, 2009, 01:30 PM
How is the SAGE more accuate than the Troy?

Onmilo
September 1, 2009, 02:39 PM
Reread paragraph 3 of H20 mans most recent post.

H2O MAN
September 1, 2009, 02:40 PM
Onmilo If this is a bit confusing,
H20MAN is telling the readers that the older Mod 0 stocks forend extended to just behind the gas cylinder assembly.

Correct.

1.75" of material were removed from the nose of the chassis reducing the weight by a few ounces.

Examples:

Old full-length chassis
http://athenswater.com/images/EBRs020407%20003.jpg

Current chassis length
http://athenswater.com/images/EBRs020407%20004.jpg






P.B.Walsh How is the SAGE more accuate than the Troy?

H2O MAN

This difference has to do with barrel harmonics, rigidity and how the barrel reacts to the op rod guide block vs. the front band.

The SAGE semi free floats the barrel forward of the op rod guide block that is bolted to the chassis and
utilizes a screw on the very front of the top hand guard that can put downward pressure on the barrel if needed.
The SAGE also uses a new crush washer shim to line up the gas port and unitize the gas system.

The TROY uses a modified adjustable front barrel band and retains the original op rod guide.
It's kind of like a hybrid version of a National Match modification that exerts downward pressure on the barrel.


Onmilo
These stock designs ... improve the accuracy and consistency of the M14 rifle system without all the special match improvements
that are fragile and very hard to maintain on a combat weapon and that can negatively impact the reliability of a combat type rifle.

Correct again :)

H2O MAN
September 1, 2009, 02:51 PM
paratroop23

Which is the better stock?

They are all excellent, but my favorite is the M14ALCS/CV (http://www.sageinternationalltd.com/si/documents/EBR_M4-M16_VARIANT-Aug19-1.pdf) CQB variant :evil:

http://www.athenswater.com/images/MK14-Mod-1-EBR.jpg

* Scope, rings and cheek riser are inbound.

Maverick223
September 1, 2009, 04:55 PM
H2O, when is she going to be complete? :)

H2O MAN
September 1, 2009, 08:06 PM
Maverick, I hope to have the scope and rings next week, the cheek riser is on back order...

Shung
September 1, 2009, 09:05 PM
this thread is making me jealous !

Maverick223
September 1, 2009, 10:26 PM
H2O, we need pics of the new rifle when complete...I am still considering building a "budget" EBR (Translation: sub-$3k) Mk. 14 with an 18" bbl. :)

H2O MAN
September 2, 2009, 05:05 PM
Maverick223 H2O, we need pics of the new rifle when complete...I am still considering building a "budget" EBR (Translation: sub-$3k) Mk. 14 with an 18" bbl :)

I spoke with Ron Smith this afternoon and he informed me that the scope and rings shipped today! :)

Pictures and a range report are coming soon.



Maverick, I am available and happy to help you build your "budget" EBR.
Have you found yourself a nice pre-owned Bush or Scout yet???

Start shopping for deals on the donor rifle and a pre-owned EBR stock... you will find a deal.

Maverick223
September 2, 2009, 05:30 PM
Maverick, I am available and happy to help you build your "budget" EBR. Have you found yourself a nice pre-owned Bush or Scout yet???I really appreciate the kind offer...the biggest thing that I have had trouble finding is the cash to start a build like this...it will have to wait for a while...but I will come to you when the time comes. :)

paratroop23
September 2, 2009, 10:46 PM
Thanks again guys.

I have a Mod 0 on order, but I think that I'm going cancel and opt for the Mod 1. I wasn't really a fan of the color, but I think it can grow on me.

paratroop23
September 3, 2009, 12:42 AM
H20MAN,

Why do you consider the Mod 0 to be the most versatile?

H2O MAN
September 3, 2009, 01:43 AM
paratroop23 H20MAN,

Why do you consider the Mod 0 to be the most versatile?


The Mod 0 is more compact and it gives you the ability to quickly adjust the LOP & the height of the cheek rest.
This added versatility results in added weight. You can compensate for some of this weight by running a standard profile barrel.

paratroop23
September 3, 2009, 02:10 AM
My M1A is a Loaded/NM 22 inch barrel. I'm assuming that it is what you meant by the standard profile barrel.

I haven't been able to find any MOD 0s. Clyde's Armory has the MOD 1s in stock now. I'm debating whether to get what's available now, or to wait for a few months for the MOD 0 to become available again.

Onmilo
September 3, 2009, 01:32 PM
Loaded/NM Spring Inc. should have a medium weight stainless steel barrel on it.

The Mod1 is already cut to accept a medium weight barrel. It can also acccept a standard weight barrel as is.
Mod 0 has to be specifically ordered for a medium weight barrel to receive the correct top cover.HTH

H2O MAN
September 3, 2009, 02:11 PM
Onmilo
Mod 0 has to be specifically ordered for a medium weight barrel to receive the correct top cover.

I believe the chassis is now the same for all new SAGE EBR variants.
If the top rail cover uses five (5) screws it will accept a medium weight barrel.
If the top rail cover uses six (6) screws it is not made to accept a medium weight barrel.

Onmilo
September 4, 2009, 07:20 PM
I think it is too but the Builder from RIA says they still get five screw top covers and somebody else posted that you do have to request exactly what you want, at least with the Mod 0 stocks.

When I ordered my EBR M4 from SAGE, I didn't ask for a medium barrel set-up since I was using a standard weight barrel and neither did they offer a choice, it just came that way.

I am glad it did as it offers me more options come rebarrel time.:)

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