TA31DOC ACOG for military service?


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dodging230grainers
September 2, 2009, 09:09 AM
I will be doing foreign military service soon (IDF) and was wondering if anyone could recommend this scope as a good multi-purpose setup? (I can bring optics from home). I am already aware that the USMC uses the TA31 ACOG and nobody seems to complain too much about that.

How accurate and crisp is the dot on the Docter? I have heard of the infamous cheekweld issues but if I know I'm going into a building I think I'll already be looking through that red dot.

And the TA31 itself I heard sometimes has "eye relief" issues...what do you guys think? I really like the crosshair reticle though.

The sight naturally appeals to me due to its ruggedness, the TA-31's crosshair reticle's appropriate function in open warfare (AKA not always close-range shootouts with insurgents in urban areas), combined with a red dot for closer work.

I was also considering the Aimpoint T-1 as a simpler compromise but I like the 4x magnification as I said in the event of certain circumstances.

So let me know what you guys think...thanks.

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MarineOne
September 2, 2009, 12:27 PM
Unless you're going to be a "Major League Doorkicker" or engaging BG's under 100 feet, then just get the one with the chevron (TA31RCO) which is the one the Marine Corps uses. In the Army its also known as the M150. It doesn't have eye relief issues and works well in low light/no light with the light gathering fiber optic across the top of the scope.

If you're going to be kicking in doors, then look at the EO Tech 512/552 with magnifier, assuming you're using a flat top upper.



Kris

dodging230grainers
September 2, 2009, 02:00 PM
I predict most of my engagements would be close range and door kicking but in the event of war all bets are off. That's why I like the 4x crosshair reticle ability with the ACOG.

Eotech and/or magnifier is out the question...definitely will not stand up to the abuse I'm about to put it through, plus i don't want anything with less than 2 years battery life to be on the safe side. But for civilians or private security I can see the eotech/magnifier appeal.

Sunray
September 2, 2009, 02:35 PM
The IDF will tell you what you can use and what you cannot. Just like any other military. You may run into U.S. export laws as well.

dodging230grainers
September 2, 2009, 02:56 PM
the IDF is different than the U.S. I have several friends currently in the IDF that have brought their own stuff from the states. It's a very flexible military. After basic training you can put whatever you want on your gun (within reason).

As for U.S. export laws, I'm not sure.

Back on topic now.. :)

HorseSoldier
September 2, 2009, 03:32 PM
You can shoot CQC range stuff with a standard ACOG without much trouble at all -- especially the fiber optic equipped models like the TA31. TA11F is probably a better choice for a do-it-all fighting scope for normal combat ranges than the TA31 (eye relief), but I played around with a TA31RCO before coming off active duty and wasn't a whole lot slower than I was with an EOTech on the flat range (and a whole lot faster at longer ranges).

dodging230grainers
September 2, 2009, 03:41 PM
what made the TA31RCO faster than a regular TA31, or the TA31DOC? The BAC using the red chevron as a red dot?

HorseSoldier
September 2, 2009, 04:19 PM
You can just use the chevron as a red dot at close range, yep -- it has eye relief issues you don't get with an AimPoint or EOTech, but end result is still pretty fast. Keep some duct tape handy, if you end up using a BAC scope, though, so you can adjust brightness on the chevron/donut/whatever, as in full sunlight they can be a bit overpowering.

dodging230grainers
September 2, 2009, 06:07 PM
any advantage to using the chevron over the crosshair reticle other than it's less busy? The BAC works also with the TA31DOC, does it not?

Perhaps what you're trying to say is that the docter optic piggybacked is useless because of the BAC red-dot like function?

HorseSoldier
September 3, 2009, 01:09 PM
I'd say that 99% of shooters won't have much use for the piggybacked Docter or J-Point or whatever sight if they're running a BAC-equipped scope. It was a somewhat bigger deal with the TA01NSNs, but even those were decent enough close combat optics.

any advantage to using the chevron over the crosshair reticle other than it's less busy?

Speed. Your eye will pick up the chevron much faster than the crosshair, and for most battlefield shooting distances all you really need is to be able to work a target with the chevron (though it is nice to have the BDC for shots out past 300 on the scope reticle).

C-grunt
September 3, 2009, 02:29 PM
Im not a fan of the little red dots on top. I had several friends break theirs. Some of the ACOGs come with little iron sight thingys on top of them. When I used mine in CQB, I just looked over it and used the front sight base. Not pinpoint accurate but will get the job done inside a building pretty fast.

JHansenAK47
September 4, 2009, 12:51 AM
My brother just got back from Iraq and I asked him a similar question? He told me in Baghdad they Acog wasn't the best because you were closer and with the magnification it took you longer to acquire your target. However when they left Baghdad and were patrolling in more open country the Acog came into it's own. He basically told me up close and personal doing house raids and other very close quarter ops the Acog wasn't his tool of choice. However in open country with longer distances the Acog was the tool to use.

jpwilly
September 4, 2009, 01:29 AM
^^^ Go figure no magnifacation for busting down doors and 4x for longer ranges...

gunnie
September 4, 2009, 12:09 PM
i know this wasn't the question, but consider:

http://www.nightforceoptics.com/SCOPES_OVERVIEW/COMPACT_NXS_MODELS_/compact1-4x24nxs/compact1-4x24nxs.html

true 1X on the low end, carry it set there. with both eyes open, as fast as an EOTech, but more view blocked from aiming eye with the scope outline. if a distant target comes up, you will have a lot more time to go to 4X, than if switching to 1X when danger is close. mounts closer/lower to rifle bore than ACOG. variable brightness reticle, the ACOG's i have played with were too bright for use in very dark situations. overloaded the pupil with light, to the point that target acquisition was no-go. covered turrets to eliminate setting changes if brushed/banged against things. FC-2 reticle is fast for close shooting, but precise enough for distant engagement. extremely thick tube bodies. built to be {close to} soldier proof, and withstand MEGA recoil african calibers.

much cheaper than the elcan 1x4 spectre, and no magnification switching impact changes that some returning from the sand have reported with this model.

another option that is similar, the valdada pitbull. less compact than the nightforce offering. note that their center dot will cover 9" at 300 yards, and that "horseshoe" is 6 MOA thick. not a precision enhancement, but faster up close. no experience with these models though:

http://www.valdada.com/product/6928a7e3-e3bc-48d0-9e8a-4ac78862cd81.aspx

gunnie

dodging230grainers
September 4, 2009, 02:42 PM
The 1-4x Nightforce would actually be my first choice as a civilian since it covers all the bases nicely, but I'm afraid what might happen to it in the IDF. I could be fighting or training in thick mud on the Golan Heights, in deep sand in the southern part of the country, or god knows where else. Unless it's as rugged as an ACOG or Aimpoint, I'd have to rule it out.

gunnie
September 4, 2009, 05:44 PM
if you have made up your mind, so be it. the ACOG will serve you well, to be sure. they are tough units.

i'm not a salesman/stockholder for/of NF, but pls read:

below a reprint of an article by S. L. Clary, from:

http://www.chuckhawks.com/nightforce_NXS_scopes.htm



QUOTE--These scopes are constructed to be durable and reliable under all conditions. Nightforce uses the terms “rugged” and “precision optics” to describe their scopes. That is a pretty bold statement given that most instruments which are built to extremely high tolerances with absolute alignment are delicate instruments. However, the folks at Nightforce have proven that their scopes are an exception to the rule. These riflescopes are not delicate and their precision sets a high standard of excellence.

The tubes are machined from bar stock of aircraft-grade aluminum alloy. They are not extruded or formed as are most other scopes. The tube walls are two to three times thicker than most other scopes. That translates into less stress, greater thermal stability and an incredible shield for the optics inside.

Every air-to-glass surface is multi-coated to tolerances of 0.000005 inches and exceeds every Mil-Spec abrasion test. The benefit of this extreme care becomes apparent in low-light conditions.

The lenses of all Nightforce scopes are matched and aligned by hand to insure optimal performance. This is referred to as optical indexing and it provides the highest possible performance and resolution. This is a time-consuming and labor intensive process, but well worth the results.

With all that has been said above, there is a final aspect of Nightforce production that places them above other scopes on the market, their Quality Assurance testing. EVERY Nightforce scope is subjected to a seventy-five step series of QA tests. No other scope manufacturer has such a rigorous QA program. Their side impact tests would destroy most scopes. Each scope is side impacted at 12, 3, 6 and 9 o’clock and must maintain 1/8 MOA or less track-out within 40 minutes of vertical adjustment after each series of impacts. After each scope passes all QA tests, it is given a green tag that is initialed by the NF technician.

Folks who have visited the factory tell me that the technicians are brutal. They absolutely will not initial that green tag unless the scope meets all factory specifications. The factory keeps a record of every scope shipped and the technician responsible for the build and QA process.

If you ask any competition or military shooter who has experience with Nightforce scopes, they will tell you that they are the toughest in the world. However, they often overlook what I consider to be an equally important quality, the optics. The company uses the best optical glass available. They measure resolution in seconds of degrees in all of their scopes. Resolution is the ability for an optical instrument to resolve an image’s fine detail at specified distances. Nightforce started down this path in order to produce the finest high magnification competition scopes in the world.

UNQUOTE--below this at the same link, pls find a picture of the legendary nightforce with the 7.62x39 hole in it that finished the mission with duct tape sealing out crud.

they have sent out a letter to those that ordered the FFP scope that it will not get to them until the military orders are filled. consider that uncle sam may be the ONLY entity out there with the monetary abundance to go buy a dozen or so of these expen$ive optics, just to slowly destroy them with over-the-top tests that simulate real world combat abuses.

these are tough scopes, and without the hubble telescope sized objectives on their long range use optics and protruding adjusting turrets, the 1x4 is even tougher.

<$0.02

gunnie

W.E.G.
September 6, 2009, 04:21 PM
The ACOG is an ITAR item.

ITAR makes it illegal to export optical gun sights from the U.S. without permission from the State Department.

See
http://www.opticsplanet.net/export.html
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Traffic_in_Arms_Regulations

Shung
September 6, 2009, 04:26 PM
I hate ITAR.. because of this stpuid thing, I would have to pay items twice the price, because all of those that are ITAR restricted are still legally for sale here in europe, but at crazy prices..`fortunately, there are ways to go around ITAR..

I got 6 Ar-15, 5 of them being made in the USA, and officially, I couldnt buy spare parts for them.. isnt that a SHAME ?

here its Switzerland, not NOTH KOREA or CHINA !

freakshow10mm
September 6, 2009, 04:52 PM
And even if you don't export, a manufacturer like my company has to be registered with the State Dept and pay $2250/yr.

taliv
September 6, 2009, 04:57 PM
And even if you don't export, a manufacturer like my company has to be registered with the State Dept and pay $2250/yr.

registered to do what?

freakshow10mm
September 6, 2009, 05:07 PM
As a manufacturer of defensive articles. My company loads ammunition and makes M16s and sound suppressors. Those are all defensive articles per ITAR. Just because I make them, even though I will never export any of my products, I need to register as a manufacturer under ITAR. I deal with civilian and law enforcement markets, not the military. Even components of ammunition needs to be registered, so all the little bullet casters out there need to be licensed as an ammunition manufacturer plus register for ITAR and pay $2250/yr.

taliv
September 6, 2009, 05:09 PM
oh, nevermind. i thought you were saying something related to the OP wanting to get a scope out of the country

freakshow10mm
September 6, 2009, 05:13 PM
I'm curious how people are going about doing it legally or if they even are. The State Department is a bear to deal with in my experience.

Shung
September 6, 2009, 05:20 PM
Lot's of things are being exported, anyway, only because sellers don't know, or don't care.. mainly through ebay and such..

I bought my TA01NSN and Eotech553 like 2 years ago, from a US tactical webseller (I will make no name, of course) .. At this time, he was (and I was) unaware of the ITAR.. Since then, he doesnt ship such things out, of course..

But still is a pain to see that all of these "restricted" items are sold, perfectly legally in shops here in europe.. but of course, prices are insane..

I just heard that even a B A D magpul lever is restricted.. man, it's a curved piece of steel or polymer... not a weapon of mass destruction..

dodging230grainers
September 6, 2009, 08:15 PM
Interesting. I also planned to take a quadrail and vertical grip...would I have to call those companies too?

So it seems like my only option is to order an ACOG online and ship it to Israel?

Shadow 7D
September 7, 2009, 06:16 AM
No, they can go, think of all the stuff that blackwater took over, but the question of export is... will it return? Read up with the regs and call the Iraqi embassy they probably could just drop it in a red pouch and problem solved.

gunnie
September 7, 2009, 08:53 AM
..."But still is a pain to see that all of these "restricted" items are sold, perfectly legally in shops here in europe.. but of course, prices are insane"...

we get the same treatment on this side of the pond, Shung.

pls see:

http://swfa.com/Schmidt-Bender-Police-Marksman-II-Riflescopes-C165.aspx

the above linked "SWFA" has some of the best overall optics prices i have found CONUS. unless i get lucky and find one on the internet that has sat on a dealers shelf for too long.

better still, check the prices of old warriors from your country:

http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/630601935/m/7961063351/p/1

the link in posting #1 is old enough that it has gone invalid. but the price is mentioned in posting #4. admitted, the gunstore it comes from is well known for ridiculous prices, but see the price quoted in posting #3, from an online auction.

i'd say the rarity of the item in your/our countries are driving the prices as much as ITAR, the schmidt and bender scopes in my first link have no import restrictions that i know of.

gunnie

dodging230grainers
September 7, 2009, 12:38 PM
Read up with the regs and call the Iraqi embassy they probably could just drop it in a red pouch and problem solved.

? Maybe you missed it, but I mentioned this was going to be in Israel, not Iraq/A-stan.

I still have trouble accepting that I would need approval to ship one ACOG overseas. As for getting it back into the country after, I don't care as much about that.

Does anyone know which number to call in the state dept. to ask a specific question like this? Or is calling trijicon and getting their opinion enough?

HorseSoldier
September 8, 2009, 01:14 PM
No, they can go, think of all the stuff that blackwater took over,

Their contracts tend to be with the State Department. I'm thinking that if you're working for DOS, and need DOS approval to get around ITAR, you've got less problems than most folks . . .

Lots of PMCs were running around Iraq at various points with AKs and Makarovs because they did have trouble getting real kit downrange. Don't think any of those guys were working DOS contracts.

Zundfolge
September 8, 2009, 01:23 PM
According to Trijicon's web site, they have a distributor in Israel

M. Paz Logistics
To email: ofer@pazlog.co.il
972 9 766 1555
HaPaamon Building, Suite 214
20 Hata'as Street, P.O. Box 2242
Kfar Saba , 44425
Israel
http://www.pazlog.co.il/

So buy it when you get there.

Side note, I really like my TA01NSN (http://www.trijicon.com/user/parts/products1.cfm?PartID=142&back_row=4&categoryID=3) ... it has iron sights on top of it (the front post has a tritium dot too).

dodging230grainers
September 8, 2009, 05:24 PM
Wow, thanks Zund...totally missed that. Guess I'm in luck after all.

steven04
September 9, 2009, 11:51 AM
Isn't the Tavor the standard offering these days or are they still issuing M4's ? My point being, will you actually get to use an ACOG whilst you're over there ?

I have 3 ACOG's. The TA31RCOA4/ M4 and TA01NSN.

I prefer the TA31RCO Chevron reticules for snap shooting over the TA01NSN cross-hairs, although I'd imagine that a 4x optic is the last thing you'd want for CQB.

I don't have the piggy-backed RDS, so can't comment on usage, although the 'iron sights' on the TA01NSN appear to be fairly useless IMO.

dodging230grainers
September 9, 2009, 02:40 PM
Isn't the Tavor the standard offering these days or are they still issuing M4's ? My point being, will you actually get to use an ACOG whilst you're over there ?

There are five infantry brigades in the IDF. Only two of them have fully converted to the tavor. The other three are supposed to fully transition by 2011-2012 but alot of soldiers are fighting that to keep what they are used to (M4).

And even if I got a Tavor, an ACOG fits on there quite nicely. And yeah, I never considered the TA01NSN...seems too primitive compared to the other ACOG offerings.

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