Legal Conversion Question


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SniperStraz
September 2, 2009, 06:54 PM
I know that putting a shoulder stock on a pistol is the legal equivalent of making SBR. Here is what I canít figure out: If one were to take an AK, simply remove the stock and shoot it using only the pistol grip would he/she have done anything illegal?
Thank you in advance for your comments.
All the best.

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THE DARK KNIGHT
September 2, 2009, 07:02 PM
You wouldn't be doing anything illegal because without a stock it's probably over the legal limit of 26" still. But the "AK Pistol" usually has a short barrel like a 9" or so that would normally be illegal. Think of the "AK Pistol" as the poor man's SBR. Or the legal loophole SBR.

nbkky71
September 2, 2009, 07:30 PM
From the ATF website: The term "rifle" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder...

Even if you met the overall and barrel length requirements, it would seem that you would no longer, by definition, would have a rifle if you permanently removed the buttstock.

I am far from a Kalshnikov expert, but I believe that removing the fixed buttstock would put you under the 26" overall length requirement. Wiki shows the length of an AK47 with a folding stock (in the folded position) as 25.4" . If you remove a fixed buttstock, wouldn't you essentially have the same length as a closed/folded stock (thus putting you under the 26" OAL) ?

AK103K
September 2, 2009, 07:39 PM
If you go with a Romanian wire folder, you get basically the same results as removing the stock. Length of the rifle from the barrel to the end of the receiver tang is only a tad longer with the stock on and folded.

With a sling on the rifle, and the stock folded, the gun can be easily hidden under a mid size coat. The advantage to the wire stock is, the gun can be easily manipulated and shot with it open or folded. Its very quickly and easily opened, and the results are a lot better that way too. You can still do pretty well using the sling as the stock, with the stock folded though.

SniperStraz
September 2, 2009, 07:43 PM
Thank you for the responses. Any other thoughts?

Ian
September 2, 2009, 07:53 PM
The reason that apparent gap exists in the NFA is because when originally written, the NFA covered pistols as well as machine guns and other stuff. SBRs and SBSs were included to prevent people from just cutting down rifles or shotguns to concealable size and avoiding the handgun restriction. The handgun section was removed from the bill before it was passed, but the SBR/SBS section wasn't - hence the current legal situation (this explains the AOW regulations as well).

nwilliams
September 2, 2009, 08:06 PM
Remember that if you took a pistol AK and put a stock on it the overall length would be a couple inches shorter than an AK rifle.

This is a problem because now that the gun is a couple inches shorter whoever uses that gun will immediately become an indestructible killing machine capable of concealing the weapon anywhere on their body. Also when you shorten the barrel of any rifle under 16in the gun automatically becomes hyper-accurate meaning you no longer need to aim and every shot fired becomes a kill shot. So the reason why we have to jump through so many hoops to get a permit to own an SBR is due to the fact that government needs to make sure that whoever applies for such a permit has no wish for world domination. Semi auto rifles with barrel lengths less than 16in are among the dangerous guns on the planet:rolleyes:

I was going to apply for an SBR permit so I could put a short barrel on my UZi but I've come to my senses and realized I'm just not ready for that kind of power yet:uhoh:

Realize folks these laws are out there to protect us from ourselves!

Hammerslagger
September 2, 2009, 08:27 PM
If you remove the butt-stock from a rifle and end up shorter than 26" OAL you have a NFA item.

It is either a SBR or a pistol made from a rifle.

SniperStraz
September 2, 2009, 09:19 PM
So as long as the measurement of the entire weapon from the tip of the barrel to the end of the stock is 26" or longer I'm golden.
What if I cut a wooden stock down so that it was still within the legal limit but could no longer be shouldered?
nbkky71's post seems to show that it must be able to be shouldered.
Any thoughts on that?

Sam1911
September 2, 2009, 09:25 PM
Remember, it is perfectly legal to take a shotgun, remove the buttstock, and install a pistol (only) grip. (Not smart, or wise, but legal.)

Keep it to the legal over-all length.

-Sam

AK103K
September 2, 2009, 09:27 PM
I just measured my SAR1, from the end of the barrel (without any type of muzzle attachment) to the tip of the upper "tang" that the stock attaches to. It measures right around 26.5". That would seem to put it over the 26" OAL, even without the stock on the gun.

Depending on what you have model wise, you may not need the stock at all.

Hammerslagger
September 2, 2009, 09:39 PM
NFA matters are very complicated and I am far from being current on the latest possible changes.

The 26" number is measured as follows: Lay it down on a flat surface and take something straight (like a piece of angle iron or a yardstick) and butt it against the muzzle at a 90 degree angle to the axis of the bore. Do the same thing at the rear of the gun. Measure the shortest distance between these two items that are 90 degrees to the bore axis (which will be a measurement parallel to the bore axis). If you are obviously over 26"; "golden" as you phrase it. Obviously under 26"; "PROBLEM". Right at 26 "; "you better be sure, because the BATF is not likely to "cut you any slack".

Next thing is possible problems with the laws of the State you are in. Laws vary greatly from state to state. For example: anything under 30" has to be registered as a "Pistol" in Michigan.

AK103K
September 2, 2009, 09:48 PM
The folding stock still gives you the best of both worlds. A rifle that is shootable as a rifle (as it should really be used), but also easily made compact.

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