American Rifle


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Firewall
September 2, 2009, 09:45 PM
I'm considering a new rifle just as a "toy". I don't hunt so enjoyment of shooting is more important to me than power, however I don't want to limit myself to a .22 either (I have one anyways). It won't be shot frequently enough that ammunition price becomes a big deal, and I may even reload eventually. I would however like to stick to fairly common calibers.

So what are your thoughts? What goes right next to the baseball and apple pie?

By the way the blame for this new potential purchase goes to Alexander Rose's book Biography of an American Rifle. Good read if you haven't already or at least the 50% I've made it through is.

My poll options are a little vague, feel free to post specifics

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cbrgator
September 2, 2009, 09:57 PM
If you want a "toy" get an AR.

John828
September 2, 2009, 09:57 PM
"Other" sure covers a lot of territory as a poll choice.

shaggy430
September 2, 2009, 09:58 PM
Winchester Model 70 30-06.

This is the most vague poll of all time.

wrs840
September 2, 2009, 09:58 PM
I'd love to have a WWII-era Springfield-Armory Garand, but you can't get much more "American" in a fun and more affordable rifle than a 30-30 lever.

I currently have two Mossberg 464s (not exactly classics yet, but American-made, and look "right" with the straight, non-checkered stock) and I like 'em. It takes about 50 rounds-fed for the feed ramps to wear-in and get them cycling smoothly though...

Les

imacauk
September 2, 2009, 09:59 PM
I voted other. To me an american rifle is a bolt action in a good walnut stock. Lots of blued steel. Probably chambered in .30-06 or .270

Firewall
September 2, 2009, 10:02 PM
I thought it was common practice for someone to choose "Other" then specify what in a reply

gga357
September 2, 2009, 10:14 PM
What about a '92 .357, .44 or .45colt. If you already have a revolver in one of those calibers then then fun will only end when the ammo runs out.

gga357
September 2, 2009, 10:25 PM
If not the lever then +1 on the bolt action, wood, blued, 30-06.

Firewall
September 2, 2009, 10:28 PM
What about a '92 .357, .44 or .45colt. If you already have a revolver in one of those calibers then then fun will only end when the ammo runs out.

That's a good idea, I'm a big fan of one of Uberti's 1866 Yellowboy in .44 magnum. Something about the octagon barrel is appealing to me

http://www.uberti.com/firearms/images/1866_yellowboy_rifle.jpg

R.W.Dale
September 2, 2009, 11:03 PM
I voted AR, a rifle that's well on it's way to filling the niche occupied by the American levergun for the past 140 yrs

Kevin5098
September 2, 2009, 11:15 PM
Not sure how an Uberti qualifies as "american as apple pie". With a CMP Garand you get an American Made Icon (even if it was designed by a Canadian). I could see the others meeting the OPs requirements as well as long as they are the original American Made versions. The Garand does it for me since it came from "the greatest generation" in American history.

marsche
September 2, 2009, 11:25 PM
To me, the American Rifle is a 1903 Springfield in 30-06. But, to bring it up to date a Winchester model 70 made before 64 or the current ones made by FNH. The FNH company is not truely American, but, the rifle is made in the USA and it is as good or maybe even better than the pre 64 models - my opinion.

freakshow10mm
September 2, 2009, 11:33 PM
The American rifle to me is the one gun that is used for everything. Hunting, defense, recreation, and work. The rifle will differ between people.

kmrcstintn
September 2, 2009, 11:36 PM
I voted lever action .30-30, but there are others that I like also...

slide action Remington 760 and bolt action Savages

Nugilum
September 2, 2009, 11:45 PM
"American" rifle to me would be the lever action.

The Garands and ARs was/are widely used throughout the world, but a lever action makes me think of the Old West.

Smokin Gator
September 3, 2009, 12:04 AM
The Uberti 66 copies are not made in 44 mag. They are very cool though along with the Win. 73 copies. As far as a fun gun the pistol caliber lever actions are sure that. If you want a magnum you can get either the Winchester/Rossi 92's or Marlin 94 models. They both are made with either round or octogan barrels. I've got two Marlins, a 44 mag and a 44-40. Mark

jfrey
September 3, 2009, 12:11 AM
"American Rifle" = Remington 700 BDL in 30.06 (early model)

P.B.Walsh
September 3, 2009, 12:22 AM
Semi- M1 Grand!!

Bolt- Remington 700 in 30-06, deeply blued barrel and a high grade walnut stock.

Of course I still like my tactikewl '700 in .308. :)

ChristopherG
September 3, 2009, 12:31 AM
Lever actions bespeak the myth of the American frontier. They are fast and fun to operate. They feel good in the hand and make me feel like a capable rifleman. To me they are the American rifle.

.44-40 or somesuch would probably be the bestest way to stay true to the myth that they convey, but I'll tell you the funnest caliber they come in: .357 magnum. So much fun to shoot it's sure to be a beloved range toy and you'll end up shooting it more than you think, so being able to shoot relatively inexpensive (and easy to reload) ammo will be more of a boon than you expected!

Cosmoline
September 3, 2009, 01:08 AM
I'd say it was the classic long barrel flintlock that evolved from the work of the great Pennsylvania gunsmiths and came to be known by a variety of names and take on a variety of styles. This was the rifle that armed the long hunters and sharpshooters. It won the west before there was a west. It also served as the basic design platform for rifles all the way through to the cartridge era.

Macgille
September 3, 2009, 01:13 AM
I voted for all of them. I own all of them. I shoot all of them. Funny thing though, when I go out to plink at long ranges (400-500 yds.) I take my Mauser k98. go figure.

Tim the student
September 3, 2009, 08:11 AM
American rifles are either 1903's, Garands, 30-30's or AR's.

Of any of those, nothing screams "Bad A$$ American" like a Garand.

Mr_Pale_Horse
September 3, 2009, 11:08 AM
What, no love for the CIWS? Eat depleted Uranium!!!!
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/ORD_Phalanx_CIWS_Firing_lg.jpg

Sav .250
September 3, 2009, 11:24 AM
Baseball, apple pie an a Savage 99 in .250 cal. Now, that`s American. :)

H2O MAN
September 3, 2009, 11:37 AM
What goes right next to the baseball and apple pie?

That would be the M1 Garand or the civilian version of the M14.

Sheepdog1968
September 3, 2009, 03:45 PM
The poll so far is showing the two timeless classics: Garand and 30-30 lever action. Both are beautiful and fun.

If you want an inexpensive ammo and very accurate shooter, I'd go with a bolt action in .223.

ChristopherG
September 3, 2009, 03:46 PM
Hmm. Not to argue--and I have that bolt action .30-06 and it's a great gun--but doesn't the bolt action strike anyone else as quintessentially European? I mean, every bolt action ever made is a Mauser knock off, isn't it? They just always make me feel like I should be wearing Lederhosen and hunting the Alps. ;-)

Maverick223
September 3, 2009, 04:04 PM
The falling block and lever action are quintessential American rifles..., the beak action is English, and the bolt action and autoloader is German at least from my POV. :)

lebowski
September 3, 2009, 06:19 PM
M1 Garand + M1A/M14

Brian Williams
September 3, 2009, 06:24 PM
Yup, they are, but you forgot a good Blue steel and Walnut Bolt gun.

WalkerCountyBoy
September 3, 2009, 06:33 PM
Come on, AR all the way. There are so many different choices and options you can do with a AR. I have a AR-15, .223 caliber and the .22lr conversion. So either way i will have fun. My cousin has an AR-50 sniper rifle, it is bad to the bone, looks bad too.

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g239/Thinktank79/ar-15-2.jpg

jeepguy
September 3, 2009, 06:45 PM
mini 14(580 series wood stock) grand action in 223 caliber fun light & all American

jeepguy
September 3, 2009, 06:51 PM
or m1 carbine cant get more American then that

Eightball
September 3, 2009, 07:34 PM
Voted for the Garand (as American as a good ol' Nazi-stomping), or the muzzle loader--specifically, a Pennsylvania long-rifle style.

Methinks the Pennsylvania rifle, complete with powder horn and box of shot, would be right at home next to that apple pie. Or the Garand, more associated with an age when people actually MADE apple pie, rather than buy it.

MartinS
September 3, 2009, 08:11 PM
30/30 saddle rifle. Feels good in your mouth when you say it. If you've watched a lot of Westerns (another American art form) give in to the indoctrination, buy one and go ride the high country.

H2O MAN
September 3, 2009, 08:25 PM
lebowski M1 Garand + M1A/M14

Yup, that's the ticket.

kis2
September 3, 2009, 08:32 PM
how do you not vote for the REMINGTON 700?! American rifle to the bone, all kinds of caliber and finish choices to tailor to your liking.

Tim the student
September 3, 2009, 08:40 PM
how do you not vote for the REMINGTON 700?!

I found it easy when the first thing that crossed my mind was GARAND!:D

P.B.Walsh
September 3, 2009, 09:29 PM
+1000000 on the Rem. 700. I love em'!! :)

Smith357
September 3, 2009, 10:39 PM
Pre 64 Winchester Model 70

http://www.jamesdjulia.com/auctions/archived/firearms/mar01/web/807-811.jpg

rtn
September 3, 2009, 11:09 PM
My $ 0.02:

The AR platform has strong American ties; can be accurate and reliable; shoots a widely available (at least until BO arrived, but that seems to be getting better) cartridge; can be used in Highpower, varmint killing, plinking, &c just by changing uppers, and are plain fun to shoot.

Legionnaire
September 3, 2009, 11:32 PM
Other (in order of my personal preference):

Remington 700 BDL (pre-J-lock) .30-06
Winchester Model 70 .30-06
Straight stocked Marlin 336 .30-30

Matrix187
September 3, 2009, 11:37 PM
Isn't a 1903 Spingfield basically a mauser rip off with a few differences? It might be made better... But I thought a lot of its features came from the mauser.

I realize it was made in America, but its overall design doesn't originate in America (if my assumption is correct). Some one please correct me...

Maverick223
September 4, 2009, 12:04 AM
Some one please correct me...You are correct...the biggest difference between the Mauser and the '03 is the ugly cocking-piece. :)

weisse52
September 4, 2009, 12:13 AM
Lever action 30-30 covers the requirements if you're talking about rifles from 100 years ago or more and on up really. But the modern US rifle that is more representative is a bolt action .30-06.

Could not agree more...

I would say Remington 700 or Winchester pre-64 model 70.

mickeydim468
September 4, 2009, 12:29 AM
I chose Other.
I know the history behind the '03 and believe the M1917 is from different lineage. Although, the action is based on an English Enfield design (P14), this project brought together the Great American rifle manufacturers, like no other project in American history, to work together for the good of the American Soldier and the War effort. In right around a year, working together with the Govt, they came to an agreement on design and interchangeable parts, even though they were made in three different company owned factories. Their design and run in service lasted through both World Wars and were more widely used by the American Soldier than any other rifle of the time. The best part is that it is still a bolt action rifle which helped Remington build the Remington model 30 hunting rifle. Yes in 30-06! So, that was my vote! Plus I own one! :neener:

Mikey!

jpwilly
September 4, 2009, 12:39 AM
The M1 Rifle to me is one of the best choices on the list right along with the AR-15. I voted M1 just for the "Ping" factor!

Firewall
September 4, 2009, 12:39 PM
I have to say the results are a little surprising to me, I didn't even think of a bolt action for some reason and thought the muzzle loader would get more support

Mr_Pale_Horse
September 4, 2009, 12:58 PM
If this poll had been taken in 1976 (BiCentennial) or 1955 (Davy Crockett Craze) muzzleloading long rifle would have gotten alot more votes.

H2O MAN
September 4, 2009, 01:06 PM
http://www.imfdb.org/images/thumb/2/28/Postman_10.jpg/500px-Postman_10.jpg

Nugilum
September 4, 2009, 06:25 PM
[Bolt actions] go back 100 years

The lever action is 43 years* older than the M1903. ;)

*Spencer repeating rifle, 1860.

Jaws
September 4, 2009, 07:59 PM
If there's a rifle that anyone outside US would imediately identify as American, it has to be a lever gun!!!

Maverick223
September 4, 2009, 08:05 PM
Agreed...the Mesopotamians invented the lever...10,000 yrs. later we made it into something useful. :D

NC-Mike
September 4, 2009, 09:49 PM
I'm considering a new rifle just as a "toy". I don't hunt so enjoyment of shooting is more important to me than power, however I don't want to limit myself to a .22 either (I have one anyways). It won't be shot frequently enough that ammunition price becomes a big deal, and I may even reload eventually. I would however like to stick to fairly common calibers.



Everything there says AR to me.

I had my AK and AR out today and for some reason, both were off the charts fun today. I forgot how much I liked my AK and the AR, well that is just a brilliantly designed, well-oiled machine that keeps going BANG, BANG, BANG!:evil:

The Garand would be a good choice but if you get a flat top AR, you could put an optic on it if you want. The Garand locks you into iron sites and sometimes fun means a scope. At least for me.

spartywrx
September 4, 2009, 10:33 PM
AR15 for me. I'm guessing its a generational thing. I'm generation AR15 (under 30)



But I also have that Garand in the safe!

Maverick223
September 4, 2009, 11:20 PM
Sharps 1974 is probably the most American rifle ever designed...the Browning 1885 being a close second. :)

tjrahl
September 4, 2009, 11:44 PM
p17 enfield or 1903 springfield, both remind me of days when America new how to make things to last, every time i see a p17 with the ears milled of i die a little inside.

BCRider
September 5, 2009, 12:20 AM
There's 4.. well.. maybe 5 arms I'd have that for me fill the factors laid out in the first post with the accent on fun to shoot and fun to operate and something with signifigance.

First is a replica or original user quality muzzle loading percussion rifle. It's intrest lays in reliving what it was like to deal with such a firearm be it for hunting or defense from the early days. A flintlock would be even more appropriate but either works depending on your tolerance for fiddling around to get things working. Maybe it's not something you'd shoot a lot but when you did it would make for a memorable day.

Second is something classic chambered in .45-70. For this round a rifle set up with the long range target peep sights would prove an exceedingly interesting challenge to hit targets at 200 and more yards out. For me the arcing ballistics of this heavy but slow bullet offers it's own challenges and instrest. It's not the sort of thing you'd use in a serious target competition but if you did enter with it for fun and giggles and managed to beat a few of the scope shooters you'd be able to walk around with your head high and chest out... in a humble way of course.... :D A rolling or falling block or a trapdoor rifle for launching these would be a great action to work with and very consistent with the time period of the round's origin. And casting your own bullets for it would keep the reloading expenses down to pennies.

Third is a lever action in any caliber that offers you an amount of recoil you're interested in. .30-30 is the classic round for this of course but there's no lack of chamberings from handgun rounds to classic orginal BP rounds that offer a lighter punch to the shoulder. Or of you wish there's lever guns that chamber 45-70 and .454 Casull for a real thump and a half.

And finally last but not least by any means I'd want to go with either a Garrand for its history or a bolt action of some form. The only problem with the Garrand is that it's semi auto ease of operation combined with the desire to hear the PING! at the end will likely run up the ammo costs by a fair amount. That's where a scoped bolt action as an example of the modern end of the time scale of this quartet would shine. This is where the 4 or 5 rifle question comes in. Get both or keep the numbers down, that is the question. I say give it a bit of time and get both for a total of 5.

So you'd have a muzzle loader from the early days, an early style cartridge rifle with the 45-70, the lever gun which so closely paralleled the falling block and trapdoor and finally the modern day military classic in the Garrand or scoped bolt action in something small and fast. Each of these 5 options has a highly different manual of arms with highlights in various areas that would make each of them fun and interesting to shoot. And it would be like a history course in your gun cabinet! :D

SwampWolf
September 5, 2009, 12:51 AM
John Wayne toted a Winchester 92 lever in the wild West. How more American can you get?

orionhawk
September 5, 2009, 12:58 AM
voted for the AR, especially for fun factor, but I love my CMP M1 as well, and an M1 Carbine is also awesome.

skidooman603
September 5, 2009, 05:38 AM
Every true American should try to own at least one of each and a few "others". As for me, if it could be just one, a great General called it "The Greatest Battle Implement ever devised" :)

H2O MAN
September 6, 2009, 11:31 AM
BCRider

Second is something classic chambered in .45-70.

And finally last but not least by any means I'd want to go with either a Garrand for its history or a bolt action of some form.

My personal collection includes the rifle that replaced the M1 Garand and a Marlin lever action chambered in .45-70 :evil:

BushyGuy
September 6, 2009, 11:43 AM
the AR15 has been with the Americans for over 20 years now and still counting for sale on the market . its the best Rifle for defending our Liberty why - shoots more bullets - more accurate -easier to fix if broken- alot of parts and accessories to make it one of a kind. with the right bullets the AR15 can be an exceptional weapon i watched that TV show the best warriors where the Green Beret vs the Spetznaz of couse the SPetznaz won that one but i saw what an AR15 can do to a lifelike gelatin body , they showed slow motion when the 5.56 round hot the torso it looked like an m80 went off inside the body went up like a large baloon inside very effective weapon.

Art Eatman
September 6, 2009, 11:49 AM
Seems to me that the lever gun is the most specifically "American".

Many countries did the muzzle-loader and then the falling block single shot. Many countries got into the bolt-action game, and then into the semi-auto and pistol-grip semi-auto deal. Universal designs and usage.

No other country, however, has had widespread production and use of the lever gun. All in all, pretty much unique to the U.S.

Jackal
September 6, 2009, 12:26 PM
Can't beat a bolt action .223 for a fun, accurate afternoon.

MachIVshooter
September 6, 2009, 01:51 PM
Well, the lever rifle is the American icon, both in original design and popularity. That gets my vote. After that, the AR. Love the Garand, but the designer was canadian. M1903 is a fantastic rifle, but still a barely modified Mauser.

Nugilum
September 6, 2009, 01:52 PM
^^^ Thank you Art, you summed up my point perfectly. :)

H2O MAN
September 6, 2009, 02:35 PM
So... the lever action is The American Rifle... :cool:

MikeBoyd
September 6, 2009, 02:55 PM
1. Remington 700 BDL bought in 1968, .30-06:cool:
2. Marlin Mdl 60 .22 LR, shoots all day for peanuts:D
3. Hi-point 9 mm Carbine with ATI stock, also cheap and fun to shoot :rolleyes:
4. Savage 300 Lever action is definitely an American Icon!!!:what:
5. Marlin XS7 in .308, accurate, inexpensive and a hoot to shoot!!:)

otcconan
September 6, 2009, 03:31 PM
Winchester Model 70 30-06.

This is the most vague poll of all time.

Model 70 is based on a Mauser action. As is the Springfield. For the sake of argument it's not really an American design.

lobo9er
September 6, 2009, 03:31 PM
all of them

ChristopherG
September 6, 2009, 03:44 PM
Model 70 is based on a Mauser action. As is the Springfield. For the sake of argument it's not really an American design.

Right--as I and several others have noted over the course of this interesting thread--but the 'vague' (or rather 'open'?) terms of the OP are precisely what has made it an interesting and (pleasantly) passionate discussion, I think. He didn't specify that the rifle had to be 'American' in any real, particular historical or statistical terms--it's about what FEELS most American. It's a question about a rifle as a SYMBOL. As asked, anyway.

I'd surmise that people's choices say something about both how they think in general (historically [muzzle-loader/lever/Garand?] or statistically [bolt] or pragmatically [AR]) and also what pieces of the American myth resonate most resoundingly for them. The legendary West? The rallying of America during the 'Greatest Generation'? The forging of the American frontier? Or maybe the freedoms celebrated by the American sportsman and hunter in the 20th century?

It just makes me want to celebrate the rich symbolic arsenal of America; probably by talking myself into buying more rifles ;-)

USSR
September 6, 2009, 10:00 PM
...it's the US made .30-06 bolt action that is the iconic American gun.

+1. Pick your make, but it's this platform that you will find in a great many American homes.

Don

Nugilum
September 6, 2009, 10:38 PM
Concerning the Google search, wouldn't they be calling it "American" to distinguish the rifle from other nationalities? "American Rifle" so you don't think Mauser, K31, or Mosin Nagant?

Does this possible confusion happen with lever actions?

Maverick223
September 6, 2009, 11:18 PM
Many countries did the muzzle-loader and then the falling block single shot.The falling block was designed in the US though...right? Searched but came up short...I thought that the Sharps 1874 was the first...but may be wrong. :)

Cosmoline
September 7, 2009, 02:48 AM
If this poll had been taken in 1976 (BiCentennial) or 1955 (Davy Crockett Craze) muzzleloading long rifle would have gotten alot more votes.

Indeed. And before Saving Private Ryan the Garand would not have gotten half as many. It's also tied up with a little hero worship of the "greatest generation." Not that that's a bad thing or undeserved, but it's a factor. I think in another fifty years when everyone is buried we'll have a little better perspective on things.

Hammerhead6814
September 7, 2009, 03:23 AM
Garand. We haven't won a major-war since we adopted the Armalite rifle. Nuff said.

WVMountainBoy
September 7, 2009, 03:35 AM
As soon as I read the question the anser in my head was Win 94...

dscottw88
September 7, 2009, 04:48 AM
I'm in love with the AR15, and I own plenty, along with an M1. But I still believe the M1A or M14 type rifle is one of the best rifles ever produced.

Mr. Bojangles
September 7, 2009, 05:46 AM
Dang, that's a really tough choice. Better get one of each and decide for yourself. :evil:

skidooman603
September 7, 2009, 08:11 AM
See below

skidooman603
September 7, 2009, 08:13 AM
Hammerhead6814
Member



Join Date: April 6, 2009
Posts: 210 Garand. We haven't won a major-war since we adopted the Armalite rifle. Nuff said.

Don't think you can blame a rifle for this :(

Art Eatman
September 7, 2009, 10:16 AM
Maverick, my point is not about where something was invented. It's the mix of both invention and widespread usage.

For example, the Garand is but one of several semi-automatic military rifles. The AR is but one of several pistol-grip military rifles. Same deal for Mauser, Enfield and Springfield bolt-action rifles. All of these have some resemblance to rifles of other countries.

The lever gun is the only one which was predominantly been an American rifle. Basically, perfected in the US and mostly used in the US. FWIW, I'd bet that even the modern Browning lever actions don't get many sales outside the US.

Let this question come up outside the US, and it's gonna be John Wayne and a Winchester 94. I was in a bar in Marseille in 1957 and the anti-America folks found out I was from Texas. To them, Texas wasn't the US government. They got me drunker'n a rat, me telling lies about cowboys and Indians.

Harve Curry
September 7, 2009, 12:18 PM
1st: The lever action Winchester 1894 30 WCF (now 30-30) another John Browning design. Lever actions of all the USA makers are indispensable to Americana.
2nd: The M1 Garand overcame many evils around the globe during WWII, operated by men who most likely had early experience with a lever action.

Maverick223
September 7, 2009, 01:28 PM
Maverick, my point is not about where something was invented. It's the mix of both invention and widespread usage...The lever gun is the only one which was predominantly been an American rifle. Basically, perfected in the US and mostly used in the US. FWIW, I'd bet that even the modern Browning lever actions don't get many sales outside the US.Well in that case Win 94' or a 1895 (Ted Roosevelt's favorite) would have to be top of the list.
et this question come up outside the US, and it's gonna be John Wayne and a Winchester 94. I was in a bar in Marseille in 1957 and the anti-America folks found out I was from Texas. To them, Texas wasn't the US government. They got me drunker'n a rat, me telling lies about cowboys and Indians.LOL; The lever is an icon of the American West, no arguing that. :)

Deltaboy
September 7, 2009, 10:08 PM
The 1906 Springfield in 30-06

22lr
September 7, 2009, 10:12 PM
Of those listed it would be the Garand. Of those not listed I would go with the Winchester 1892 and clones in 44/40 and 45lc. Leverguns are purebred American.

BCRider
September 7, 2009, 11:17 PM
Walter Oakley said;
You seem to be fixated on how guns work today rather than the actual historical weapons and how they were iconic weapons of America. And this comment seems very strange in that context. Have you ever heard of the Sandy Hook tests of 1889.

Sorry, I guess I didn't realize it would draw that interpretation. It's not that the gun or the round can't reach out much further but rather that the peep sights can make for some fun in using them to direct the bullet. It was the fun and challenge of using the peep that I was reffering to.

I suggested the 45-70 based on reading that report along with the fact that it's an American cartridge that really made a mark in the rifle use field. And if it can be used along with the old style gun and peep sight to humble a few modern gun owners then it would be something to smile about. But I agree with the implication in your comment on how many folks these days are quick to dismiss the performance of the older cartridges and figure that if you don't have a magnum something or other than you may as well not leave home.

Hammerhead6814
September 8, 2009, 12:01 AM
Don't think you can blame a rifle for this

Other than it's lacking in areas that rifles like the Garand excel in? Like stopping power (oh thats right, Stopping Power is a myth to AR owners)? Or reliability? Or maybe it's just that the AR platform simply does not inspire a lot of confidence? Soldiers have been complaining about that rifle since Veitnam, and well into today (http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/the-usas-m4-carbine-controversy-03289/#more-3289). No one doubted the M1 Garand's ability to put lead down range that would kill what it hit. No one doubted that it would fire.

How about we just look at the US Military's record from before and after the adoption of the AR/M16 platform eh?

Before the AR-15:

Revolutionary War - Won
War of 1812 - Ended on a Treaty
Civil War - Won (note I said "US Military", the Confederate Army thereby not being the US Army)
Spanish-American War - Won
Philippine–American War - Won
Mexican-American War - Won
World War I - Won
World War II - Won
Korean War - Ended in Truce

Since the AR-15:

Veitnam - Lost
Grenada - Won (if you can call that a War, but I got to give AR's something)
Gulf War - Ended with Sadam in power and left us one hell of a mess.
Afganistan - Still going after nearly nine years, twice as long as WWII.
Iraq - Ending with us pulling out and the Iraqis cheering for us to leave.

So thats six wins, two truce/treaty for prior to the AR.

That's one surefire loss, two long-ass wars which have had no victory so techincally losses, one loss on grounds that we didn't accomplish any long-term victory (Gulf War), and one win on a tiny island that had a mere three days of fighting!

With the AR we haven't seen victory. With the AR we have to make excuses and look for the dim light we call a bright side. And let me tell you something, the light? It's in a very large, very dark cave.

Maverick223
September 8, 2009, 12:04 AM
Yes the lever gun was developed in the US but it had very little impact on anything except Hollywood.Dead wrong...was it used in many conflicts...no (but it was used in at least one (Winchester 1895 in the Spanish-American War); but the lever action rifle has probably killed more deer in the US than all other repeating rifle designs combined. It is also an icon of the American West, even if it wasn't the most commonly used design (the single shot rifle or shotgun was). While I still prefer a nice falling block design, it had a pretty big impact, like it or not. :)

Maverick223
September 8, 2009, 12:10 AM
How about we just look at the US Military's record from before and after the adoption of the AR/M16 platform eh?I don't particularly care for the AR, but can you really blame the rifle for the record...I think it has nearly nothing to do with it...morale, organization, style of combat, types of combatants, and the administration have much more to do with the outcome than small arms. If not...why on earth did we win the Revolutionary War? We had little supplies, poor weaponry (in general), but great leadership, morale, and the style of combat was more conducive to victory. :)

lionking
September 8, 2009, 01:22 AM
Hammerhead,we won the Gulf war,we did what we set out to do.As far as Vietnam and Iraq,America and it's allies had and have won just about every battle in those wars,it is just the type of war they are sorry to say are unwinable war because you are not battling a conventional army.You can win just about every battle but still loose the war.

Vietnam in the early part had plenty of Garands and M14's and carbines being used and I doubt the outcome would have been any different if the M16 would never have been introduced.

All the above choices are true American icon firearms but I got to go with the lever rifle as the choice of the poll.

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