Local indoor range no longer allows WWB ammo


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nachosgrande
September 3, 2009, 02:43 AM
Is this just their way of saying that they don't want you to shoot ammo you didn't buy from them? At $15 a pop to go there for an hour and a minimum of $100 to buy a box of ammo for each handgun from them, that seems a bit much for a little bit of entertainment.

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bigfatdave
September 3, 2009, 04:05 AM
That range is going to be seeing a lot of other manufacturer's ammo boxes refilled with WWB if they try to monitor what's getting shot.
I'd understand a "no reloads" policy, but no WWB? What about WWB range-clean ammo?

I'd get the owner or manager to make that statement before making a big deal about it, hopefully the counter-person was confused or mistaken.

nachosgrande
September 3, 2009, 04:13 AM
Well, BigFatDave, I only wish that were true. Scroll down to the bottom of this link and see what ammo they do and don't approve.

http://www.targetmaster.com/range.html

You did, however, give me a good idea about putting WWB ammo in different boxes. Why didn't I think of that?

ThrottleJockey72
September 3, 2009, 04:25 AM
Seems that perhaps they sell the brass they sweep up to a reloading company that doesn't like the winchester stuff?

CountGlockula
September 3, 2009, 04:35 AM
It helps if they taught proper grip technique:
http://www.targetmaster.com/images/range1.jpg

Anyways...

Contact the manager for futher details. The regular counter guy is giving patrons bad info, that may lose their future business.

evan price
September 3, 2009, 05:42 AM
Pretty simple. Save your 50-rd winchester white box boxes. Repack your 100-rd bulk pack stuff in them. No way to tell otherwise, and it's the same ammo. I did that for years before I started reloading, if only to make it neater storage than having rounds all jumbled together in the little WWB pack.

Martyk
September 3, 2009, 06:00 AM
about this place...but it looks like they've had this policy for quite some time...


http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=159802

natman
September 3, 2009, 06:35 AM
Let's take a look at the actual restrictions. Clearly it is NOT to force people to buy their ammo:

We do allow patrons to bring their own ammo to use in the range, but ammunition must be purchased from Targetmaster for use in our rental guns.

Ammo Allowed

Handguns: all calibers are welcome

Shotgun: ONLY Buckshot or Slugs

Rifles: up to 2300 fps (i.e. .22, .22 mag., .30-30win., 35rem., 30 carbine, .45-70gov., etc.)


.223 is allowed as well but must be purchased at Targetmaster at the time you are coming in to shoot and is only sold in 20rd. box quantities. You may not bring any outside .223 in to shoot even if it was purchased from Targetmaster at an earlier date.

Ammo Restricted

CCI Blazer or other aluminum cased ammo

Fully exposed lead bullets except for .22lr or calibers that are not offered in a jacketed bullet (i.e. 45colt, 44 special, 38 s&w, etc.)

Steel cased or steel core ammo (i.e. Wolf, Silver Bear, etc.)

Winchester 100rd. Bulk/Value packs

Most of these make sense if you look at the limitations of an indoor range. I am frankly surprised that they allow any centerfire rifle rounds because of penetration problems. I am amazed that they allow 223 at all, apparently their house load is OK to shoot indoors.

Blazer and steel cased ammo screw up brass recycling, lead bullets are a big pain indoors because of lead in the air and splattering and steel core bullets penetrate too much.

I can certainly understand why they won't let people test their handloads in the range's guns. (Let's find the real maximum 44 Magnum load!!)

Now I have no idea why they don't want Winchester Bulk ammo (I assume that's WWB), but I bet there's a good reason. Have you asked?

bigfatdave
September 3, 2009, 07:04 AM
Unenforceable rules weaken the good and reasonable ones.
Are they going to check every round's headstamp?
Re-pack, pre-load mags, or otherwise obscure the origin (like keeping them in the case or your range bag) of perfectly good ammunition, or just find a local club and get a membership if you don't want to deal with silly stuff like this and be surrounded by first-time shooters that you didn't invite.

22-rimfire
September 3, 2009, 07:56 AM
I think the pricing on many ranges will be going up in urban areas. The ammo restriction seems to be more of a profit center for them. They are controlling what is mostly shot. I would go elsewhere if you have a choice. But I guess it is one of those things... their range, their rules.

My club restricts the use of magnum ammo at some of their ranges. I used to have a membership at a local indoor range, but have not renewed. They allowed any handgun ammo, including the biggest like 460, 500 etc. Rifles were restricted to 22.

bill in IN
September 3, 2009, 08:21 AM
Glad I don't have to deal with that kinda stuff.

KarenTOC
September 3, 2009, 08:59 AM
I've shot at targetmaster, mostly .22lr (ruger mkIII) and .38 spl (s&w 10 & 19). I often wondered why they didn't allow wwb, but since my mkIII hates winchester ammo, and I already had a bunch of other brand .38spl I didn't have an issue with the restriction. As I replaced ammo, I simply bought non-wwb. (their restrictions used to say "no smokey reloads" - looks like they've dropped that one.)

Unenforceable rules weaken the good and reasonable ones.
Are they going to check every round's headstamp?

When you pay for your range time, they'll ask to see your ammo, except for .22lr. They don't seem to care what .22lr you shoot. They look at the box and say ok or not. I suppose you could sneak other stuff into your box - I've only had them check the actual bullets (yes, bullets) once to see if they were jacketed (I guess he didn't recognize the brand). They're system seems to be one of "check what you don't recognize but otherwise assume the customer is honest."

There are no restrictions on targets or backings. Bring your own or buy from them. No silly rules about not shooting "human" targets (ones i see a lot are generic arab terrorist, osama bin laden with a gun, and man with a hostage.)

Last time I went, I didn't want to use up my dwindling supply of .38spl so I asked what they had cheap for plinking. The guy behind the counter took a box of remmington from a stack of "range ammo." I was surprised at how reasonably priced it was. Another counter guy then asked me what kind of gun I was shooting. When I told him, he said - wait, use this instead, it's better for your gun. It was the same price. I thought that was a nice bit of knowledgeable service at their end. I think I'm going to go again just to buy up more cheap range ammo than I'll actually shoot lol.

One thing I've never gotten from them is "attitude." They don't mind answering newbie questions, they don't treat you like they're demigods and you're a peon just because you're on the wrong side of the counter. And there are a lot of range members - not everyone shooting is a beginner.

No doubt there are bigger, better, newer, cleaner, more professional ranges, but IMHO, Target master is fine. I'll miss it when I'm no longer making work-related trips to PA.

eatont9999
September 3, 2009, 09:26 AM
I would not shoot at a place that did not allow me to bring my own ammo. I reload to SAVE money. I cast my own bullets to SAVE money. I also pickup other people's brass to SAVE money. You get the idea.

Norinco982lover
September 3, 2009, 10:19 AM
I would ask them why.

middleground
September 3, 2009, 11:09 AM
I know that gun store bashing is looked down upon, but I am not a big fan of target master. They are the only indoor range that I know of in my area, and they do carry a great selection of products.

That being said, I've often felt that its tough to get good customer service there.

I think I remember them telling me that the Winchester bulk back rule was directly related to customers buying ammo at wal mart.

middleground
September 3, 2009, 11:10 AM
I've also never seen the girl from the website photo shooting there....false advertising?

RainDodger
September 3, 2009, 11:18 AM
We have a local range in the Seattle area that won't even let shooters pick up their brass! Needless to say, I do not patronize them. They pick it up, sort it and re-sell it. It's a lame "rule"... I own that brass.

zxcvbob
September 3, 2009, 11:24 AM
They don't want you spilling the bulk-pack box of ammo all over the place! Repackage it in WWB 50-packs and everybody will be happy.

ArmedBear
September 3, 2009, 11:27 AM
I've shot 499 out of 500 with that stance and a similar grip at a local league match. I was experimenting. Different strokes for different folks.:)

General Geoff
September 3, 2009, 11:51 AM
We have a local range in the Seattle area that won't even let shooters pick up their brass! Needless to say, I do not patronize them. They pick it up, sort it and re-sell it. It's a lame "rule"... I own that brass.

Do they yell at you if you use a revolver, and empty your brass into your own container? Or for that matter, an autoloader with a brass catcher?

cchris
September 3, 2009, 11:52 AM
I can think of one reason - it's a scattered box of ammo, not neatly packed. Doesn't make sense, but that's all I can come up with.

ArmedBear
September 3, 2009, 12:04 PM
We have a local range in the Seattle area that won't even let shooters pick up their brass! Needless to say, I do not patronize them. They pick it up, sort it and re-sell it. It's a lame "rule"... I own that brass.

It might be amusing to take some brass you no longer want to use (like it's been reloaded 25 times and you figure it's not worth reloading it any more). Tumble it to make it all pretty, then run it through a case trimmer and shave off about .050", maybe a bit more. See how much you can cut off without making it look obvious to someone without a caliper. Scatter it on the floor before you leave.

A few pissed-off reloaders who try to use rimless cases that are .050" short might put a bit of a dent in their future brass sales. Note that YOU aren't selling the brass. For all you know, they recycle it as scrap metal (which is what they SHOULD do with cases of unknown origin and history!).

Of course, you shouldn't actually DO this. I didn't advise it. I just said it might be amusing. Don't do it.:D

natman
September 3, 2009, 01:22 PM
I would not shoot at a place that did not allow me to bring my own ammo.

They do.

armoredman
September 3, 2009, 01:30 PM
Yikes. I like my local range, was just there an hour ago. No fees, no monitoring, no issues. I cannot imagine shooting someplace that told me that my brass was theirs when it hit the floor. Nope, that would not fly with me, I paid for that product, and will take home what is mine.
Guess I am spoiled out here, but that sounds ridiculous. We used to encourage reloaders to bring big plastic baggies when they came out to the range, and fill up from the brass barrels. Still ended up with 10 55 gallon drums full when I left there...no idea what happened to it all.

Deanimator
September 3, 2009, 01:44 PM
Blazer and steel cased ammo screw up brass recycling, lead bullets are a big pain indoors because of lead in the air and splattering and steel core bullets penetrate too much.
I wouldn't shoot at a range that tried to keep me from recovering my brass or banned lead bullets.

I OWN that brass. I'm not giving them whatever the range fee is PLUS the value of the brass. I reload for every handgun caliber I shoot.

I can afford neither factory practice ammo, nor to handload jacketed bullets.

I once went to a range in Sheffield Lake, Ohio. As I was unpacking the guns I was zeroing for Camp Perry, the guy behind the counter told me I couldn't use lead bullets. He offered me some +P .38 Special JHPs... to shoot in my Giles .38 Special M1911. I'd have invited him to load some of them into the magazine, but I was in a hurry, and he probably would have ruined the ammunition and the magazine. I packed my stuff back up and left for another range.

natman
September 3, 2009, 02:28 PM
I wouldn't shoot at a range that tried to keep me from recovering my brass or banned lead bullets.

I OWN that brass. I'm not giving them whatever the range fee is PLUS the value of the brass. I reload for every handgun caliber I shoot.

I can afford neither factory practice ammo, nor to handload jacketed bullets.


I said they were good reasons, i.e. reasons based on a rational approach to the situation from the range's perspective.

That doesn't mean that they are "fair", that you have to like them or that you're not free to disagree with them because you certainly are.

The only thing that has been definitely established about this range's ban on WWB ammo is that it's NOT designed to force you to buy the range's ammo.

mgkdrgn
September 3, 2009, 03:06 PM
They don't want you spilling the bulk-pack box of ammo all over the place! Repackage it in WWB 50-packs and everybody will be happy.

THAT could well be the reason. The last time I bought WWB 9mm was at a WalMart (some months ago!), and the guy dumped 2 of 'em all over the floor before he managed to get me the two I had asked for.

MagnumDweeb
September 3, 2009, 03:09 PM
It's nice that a range has rules on ammo, and that they have ammunition they approve or don't approve of. A local range i goes to has the same rules, and good for them. They don't check my ammo, so too bad for them when I bring in my reloads, use Wallly World ammo, or ammo I've gotten online or through my FFL guy. It's easier to ask for forgiveness than permission. They don't want my business they can ask me to leave. They want my business(I only pay to use the range and sometimes buy their targets) then all they have to do is lower their incredibly high ammo prices. Yes they have a business to run yada yada yada and all that hoopla, but I've got only so much money to spend. It's as cold and as simple as that.

RainDodger
September 3, 2009, 03:58 PM
They will allow you to use a brass catcher, of course. It's only when it hits the floor that they won't let you pick it up. I would never shoot there - I have a buddy that is a member there. He doesn't yet reload, so he doesn't really care, although he's thinking about it now.

That brass is mine. I bought it and I'm taking it out of there when I go... so I'd never patronize them.

glassman
September 3, 2009, 04:46 PM
I've been a member at Targetmaster for a couple of years and with the exception of one guy behind the counter, have had a good relationship with them. They seem friendly, knowledgable and willing to spend the time needed to answer questions, show firearms, etc. I bought a scope for one of my rifles and they mounted it while I waited free of charge. Their prices for guns/ammo are competative and overall, IMHO, it's a decent place to shoot. I asked about the wwb and was told that the owner had a personal bone to pick with wallyworld and chooses to disallow their ammo. His shop, his rules.
I wouldn't shoot at a range that tried to keep me from recovering my brass or banned lead bullets.
You can pick up your brass and take it home..no problem. I've never seen anyone prohibited from doing that.They disallow lead for the health and safety of their personell(and shooters).

They are the only indoor range that I know of in my area, and they do carry a great selection of products.
There are three that I can think of within a thirty minute drive. They are a tad S&W heavy but you can find almost every manufacturer represented there.
I am amazed that they allow 223 at all, apparently their house load is OK to shoot indoors.
Their .223 ammo is frangible.
I sound like a walking advertisement for the place and maybe I am, but I'm there every week and have always been treated well and will continue to go.

cuervo
September 3, 2009, 07:41 PM
Dick's Sporting goods sells 250rd Mega Packs of UMC ammo. Take a box of that in and see what they say. (Or an economy pack of Federal from Wal-Mart.)

It's not WWB, so they shouldn't complain.

highhawk
September 4, 2009, 10:08 PM
Went to a range today that wanted me to surrender my driver's license until I was through shooting. When I asked why I was told that this was NRA and local LEO recommendation. Have shot at various ranges in 6 states and have never run across this requirement before. Think of it as another nail in our freedoms. Am I being paranoid?

COMPNOR
September 4, 2009, 10:25 PM
yes. they might have had issues with people skipping out. Besides, its a PRIVATE business. they aren't nailing lids on anything. Perhaps instead of going to paranoia mode, why not ask why? for a change.

Mags
September 4, 2009, 10:36 PM
Just put your ammo in a plastic bag and carry on.

scottaschultz
September 4, 2009, 11:11 PM
Went to a range today that wanted me to surrender my driver's license until I was through shooting... Think of it as another nail in our freedoms.
My usual range (operated by the state Dept of Conservation) does this too, but I never thought of it is "surrendering" anything. I give them $3 and my license and I always get it back when I am done, so exactly what freedom am I giving up? Its not like I can't leave any time I want and I am not going to be driving anywhere while I am there.
Am I being paranoid?Yes!

Scott

bigfatdave
September 5, 2009, 12:13 AM
Am I being paranoid?A little.
A range I occasionally use for their rentals does that as well. I think it is as much to discourage stupidity on the line as anything else.

akodo
September 5, 2009, 03:46 AM
Last time I went, I didn't want to use up my dwindling supply of .38spl so I asked what they had cheap for plinking. The guy behind the counter took a box of remmington from a stack of "range ammo." I was surprised at how reasonably priced it was. Another counter guy then asked me what kind of gun I was shooting. When I told him, he said - wait, use this instead, it's better for your gun. It was the same price. I thought that was a nice bit of knowledgeable service at their end. I think I'm going to go again just to buy up more cheap range ammo than I'll actually shoot lol.

what the?

???

Sorry, but that to me sounds REAL FISHY. A gun should be able to digest ANY ammo it is designed to handle with no harm. There is no sliding scale...especially if it is all range ammo.

Now, you might have an issue were ammo maker X is not known for quality control and you have an increased risk of getting an overcharged load, but then we are talking manufacture error.

And I suppose there is an issue with some of the rifling style of, say, older marlin lever action rifles and cast lead bullets, but we are talking about just a handful of pretty obscure situations.

I have to ask...what kind of gun were you shooting, what kind of ammo did you initially select and which kind of ammo did he steer you toward?

JWF III
September 5, 2009, 06:34 AM
Blazer and steel cased ammo screw up brass recycling,

Well it wouldn't work for Blazer, but there's this new invention called a magnet. It'll pick every steel case out of a pile of brass. Just slide it through the pile a few times and they all just magically stick to it.

As far as the Blazer goes, it's very easy and just slightly more time consuming, to pick out the different colored cases while they are still in a pile.

Wyman

ezypikns
September 5, 2009, 08:12 AM
Glad I don't have to deal with that kinda stuff.

There's a range in one of our suburbs here that won't allow me to shoot my reloads.

Guess where I don't go any more.

Deanimator
September 5, 2009, 08:51 AM
I said they were good reasons, i.e. reasons based on a rational approach to the situation from the range's perspective.
I didn't say they couldn't make whatever [lawful] rules they wanted, no matter how idiotic. I said they couldn't do it and have MY money.

Or are you saying, they have a RIGHT to MY money?

Deanimator
September 5, 2009, 08:54 AM
Went to a range today that wanted me to surrender my driver's license until I was through shooting. When I asked why I was told that this was NRA and local LEO recommendation. Have shot at various ranges in 6 states and have never run across this requirement before. Think of it as another nail in our freedoms. Am I being paranoid?
It's pretty common these days. I've seen it in several ranges in at least two states.

I only shoot on my club range now, so I don't have to bother with such things.

chuckusaret
September 5, 2009, 09:24 AM
Here in Palm Beach County you are not allowed to use your own ammo at any of the indoor gun ranges. You are required to purchase the range's ammo at outrageous prices for cheap dirty ammo. My last trip to the range was for one hour and the range fee and ammo exceeded $100. Needless to say, I no longer use the indoor ranges......

LibShooter
September 5, 2009, 09:50 AM
Call me crazy, but if you sign up and agree to shoot at any range, you're agreeing to abide by their rules. Shooting prohibited ammunition from decoy boxes is a breach of contract and just wrong.

Tell them you don't like their rules, and that's why you're NOT shooting there but don't lie.

KarenTOC
September 5, 2009, 10:29 AM
I have to ask...what kind of gun were you shooting, what kind of ammo did you initially select and which kind of ammo did he steer you toward?

No doubt I've worded my experience poorly. I asked what they charged for "cheap plinking .38 spl". The guy picked up a box from a pile of "range ammo" and was still fiddling with the upc reader when the other guy at the opposite end of the counter asked what kind of gun I'd be shooting. Told him I'd be shooting 2, both new-to-me: S&W 66, and Colt Cobra, first time shooting both of them. He took a box of Remington 130gr from the pile of "sell to customers" ammo and said it would be better for the Colt. The original box was back in the range ammo pile before I thought to ask what it was. I assume it was 158 gr. Both were Remington, and were the same price.

I know the Colt can handle +p *rarely* and +p+ *never* so his suggestion didn't seem unreasonable to me. What was more impressive to me was that he asked at all. He was busy doing paperwork, but stopped to check and make sure that I was getting the right ammo. Possibly my being female and asking for "cheap plinking ammo" caused him to think I might not know what I'm doing. He's totally correct on that. (I'm still trying to remember not to embarrass myself by asking for a box of "bullets" lol.) Even if he were wrong, and the bullet size wasn't an issue, I believe his customer service skills deserve an atta-boy.

(ps: not to go off-topic, but if you know that what he said is wrong, I'd welcome your input)

Targetmaster:
> Lets - no, expects.. no, requires - you to pick up your own brass, except for that which falls forward of the line of fire. Sort it and dump it in one of the provided buckets, or sweep it forward of the line of fire. Just clean up after yourself.
> Holds your drivers' license while you shoot
> Allows Remington and Federal bulk pack .22lr (in fact, if you tell them you're shootling .22lr they won't even look. I've shot WWB bulk pack there with no problem. Maybe it's only a problem if the owner is behind the counter :)

wyohome
September 5, 2009, 10:35 AM
Their website has a phone #, call and ask.

Blackbeard
September 5, 2009, 01:04 PM
Call me crazy, but if you sign up and agree to shoot at any range, you're agreeing to abide by their rules. Shooting prohibited ammunition from decoy boxes is a breach of contract and just wrong.

You're crazy. Their prohibition is on the Winchester 100-round value packs. The same ammo comes in 50-round boxes too. I say once you take it out of the 100-round value pack box and put it in a 50-round box, you have satisfied the terms of the agreement.

LeonCarr
September 5, 2009, 03:55 PM
Why a range would put restrictions on ammo to make it harder for their customers is beyond me. As long as they are not shooting AP, who cares?

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

scotthsi
September 5, 2009, 04:49 PM
What's that NASA looking control panel to the right of the girl in the range picture?

wrs840
September 5, 2009, 05:03 PM
Two stupid questions:

I think it's real important to practice frequently with the ammo you intend to depend on in a "non-practice" situation. Is this not common sense?

What's specifically their beef with WWB 100 packs? I caught the "spill" guess, seems pretty far-fetched to me...

Les

scotthsi
September 5, 2009, 05:21 PM
I think it's real important to practice frequently with the ammo you intend to depend on in a "non-practice" situation. Is this not common sense?

Sure it's common sense and we'd ALL love to be able to blast hundreds if not thousands of rounds "willy nilly" with the most expensive of whatever premium, super duper hollowpoint self-defense rounds we want/choose to carry.

It doesn't make ECONOMIC sense...

wrs840
September 5, 2009, 05:37 PM
In my carry-weaposn, I fire my chambered and backup personal defense mags or strips first, then switch to the cheaper stuff when doing range practice. I then leave reloaded with my carry ammo.

Les

Dulvarian
September 5, 2009, 10:24 PM
Les,

I do the exact same thing. I don't as often as I would like to, and that seems to work just fine to me.

Dulv

wrs840
September 5, 2009, 11:24 PM
I just want to reassure myself that what I'm depending on for personal defense is reliable exactly as I was carrying it, so that goes downrange first. (Cold gun, cold shooter, my carry ammo, how are we measuring-up today?) Then I fire cheaper stuff and/or shoot experimental "try-it-out" stuff.

I shoot a lot of WWB 165gr FMJ .40 for practice, for instance, and l (and my 3rd gen Smith) like it just fine, but I arrived with and fired 23 rounds of Golden Saber or PDX1 first, and leave reloaded that way too.

Les

atbarr
September 5, 2009, 11:46 PM
I've shot 499 out of 500 with that stance and a similar grip at a local league match. I was experimenting. Different strokes for different folks.:)
That grip she is using, might be ok for slow fire.

A.T.

msb45
September 6, 2009, 01:36 AM
What's that NASA looking control panel to the right of the girl in the range picture?

Targetmaster has an electronic target holder. I only really every use the toggle to send the target in & out. All the other junk is left at the pre-set. Range can stay hot and it beats the old crank type clothes line I've seen at ranges.

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