Vendors at gunshows filing off serial numbers


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ColdCoffeeMug
September 3, 2009, 06:05 AM
I'm a criminal justice student at a university here in Florida. Currently, I'm enrolled in a class designed to evaluate and make recommendations on a large multifaceted program designed to reduce crime. This week's discussion focused on gun laws and their effects on gun crime. The professor was discussing "the gun show loophole." (his words, not mine) Florida allows face to face transfers without completing background checks. In any event, he mentioned gun shows and the lack background checks and that, "Anyone call waltz into these places and purchase a firearm." He then stated that because of the lack of background checks that, "vendors routinely file the serial numbers off of firearms to avoid having them traced." I asked him to clarify because I didn't understand. I told him that doing that, even the possession of a firearm with an altered or removed serial number was a major felony. He pretty much laughed at me and then when a graduate student, in his 30's, mentioned that he'd been shooting and attending gun shows for almost twenty years and never came across a firearm with defaced serial numbers the professor said that apparently the other student and I must associate with a small group of "virtuous gun dealers." Despite the obvious demands for his contact information which I'd rather not divulge, has anyone here ever come across defaced serial numbers at a gun show? It just seems pointless to do so in a state that doesn't require tracing anyway.

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mnrivrat
September 3, 2009, 06:18 AM
Your Professor is full of crap & making things up .

That doesn't surprise me . It still makes me disgusted , but not surprised.

Dealers are not filing off serial numbers - in more than 40 years of attending gun shows I have yet to see one gun at a show with defaced serial numbers. It is a felony to tamper with the serial number, or possess a firearm with the serial number altered.

evan price
September 3, 2009, 06:37 AM
Your professor is letting his liberal idiocies out. Defacing a serial number is a Federal crime. Nobody at a gun show is going to do that. This is yet another instance of someone trying to fit his personal paranoia and preconceived opinions into his world view.
I have NEVER seen a gun so defaced. Best thing to do is turn back on this fellow and demand proof beyond his somewhat hazy recollection.

And don't forget to mention that the "gun show loophole" is the code word for two adults legally agreeing to sell a legally owned piece of property between themselves.
Funny how there is no "Parking Lot Loophole" for people who sell cars but are not car dealers.

LAK
September 3, 2009, 07:00 AM
With all the BATmen trolling gunshows I would say that the "life expectency" of anyone - dealer or not - filing serial numbers off would be very short indeed.

el gato
September 3, 2009, 07:02 AM
Another perfect example of the brainwashing of America by the left. Say it over and over and over and eventually the vast uneducated will believe it is true.

9mm+
September 3, 2009, 07:04 AM
Wow, now I have heard it all. Perhaps you and the professor can take a field trip together to the next gun show. Afterwards, you can serve him a plate full of crow to eat.

Shung
September 3, 2009, 07:14 AM
Yeah.. bring him to a gun show and challenge him find ONE SINGLE filed gun.. if he doesnt, let him change his version publicly..

natman
September 3, 2009, 07:21 AM
Not once. Not ever in 25 years of gun deals.

I did have a buyer get hysterical once because I sold him an old 22 that had never had a serial #.

After I posted a note on a gun forum and twenty people explained that it was OK on pre-1968 guns he finally calmed down.

Your professor is mistaken, to say the very least.

John Parker
September 3, 2009, 07:23 AM
Yeah.. bring him to a gun show and challenge him find ONE SINGLE filed gun.. if he doesnt, let him change his version publicly..


I think liberals melt when you make them confront logic directly. Kind of like the Wicked Witch of the West and water.

Shung
September 3, 2009, 07:27 AM
so let them melt;)

Deus Machina
September 3, 2009, 07:30 AM
Dealers don't want to deal with the law, even less so than anyone else. The ATF is likely to freeze up their business while they get checked out.

It's illegal to deface a serial number.

I'm sure it's illegal to buy a gun with a defaced serial number, and it's certainly illegal to sell it.

And the dealers (not private sellers, who rent a booth to dump off their collection) do have to do a background check. The loophole isn't, because it's just a person selling it to another person, the same as buying a used car or couch.

Your professor's not only ignorant, but willing so. I won't even blame it on being liberal at this point--ignorance isn't just a liberal thing--but he's obviously generally a blockhead. I'm still honestly amazed how many people I've met in the educational fields that are enthusiastically ignorant and stubbornly closed-minded, and he's one of them.

dkk73
September 3, 2009, 07:32 AM
Have never seen this in person. I think if I were transported into a 50's mafia noir film I might find a gun with serial #'s filed off. ;)

Sounds like you were very circumspect and professional in handling this. A bit surprised to hear about this in criminal justice class, I am.

w_houle
September 3, 2009, 07:37 AM
I love it! It's a criminal conspiracy that lives in a vacuum. The thought that flyers and radio ads go out and people come in, yet: Cops never show up to look around, or to even shop for themselves? How is it these gun shows hold all of these "illegal sales" and never have been busted? Wow! That's some weapons grade ignorant right there.

dkk73
September 3, 2009, 07:38 AM
Your professor's not only ignorant, but willing so. I won't even blame it on being liberal at this point--ignorance isn't just a liberal thing--but he's obviously generally a blockhead. I'm still honestly amazed how many people I've met in the educational fields that are enthusiastically ignorant and stubbornly closed-minded, and he's one of them.

I say this carefully. I have spent years in academia outside of being an undergrad student, and I have a lot of respect for the culture.

Someone once pointed out to me that people can have crazy, wrong, or extreme views in academia because "if they are wrong, it doesn't matter".

This can result in free thought, good discussion, and protection of important minority ideas (otherwise maybe we'd be in the dark ages still). But, it can protect a fair amount of idiocy. Especially if padded in tenure.

Just wait until libertarianism and gun rights become more fashionable. Then it'll be a wave of academic posturing to support it. Sigh..

Walkalong
September 3, 2009, 07:49 AM
Just wait until libertarianism and gun rights become more fashionable. Then it'll be a wave of academic posturing to support it. Sigh..That would be just great. ;)

We are just tired of all the lies the anti's tell, over and over and over.

Tim the student
September 3, 2009, 07:55 AM
has anyone here ever come across defaced serial numbers at a gun show?

No. If your professor can name one verifiable instance, I'd love to see it. If he has ever been at a gun show, I'd love to hear about his experiences of people selling fully automatic weapons to each other, live grenades, and rusty handguns with no SN anymore.

Not only is he full of it, I think he knows he is, and that makes him a lying POS.

RDak
September 3, 2009, 07:56 AM
Your professor is an idiot IMHO.

9mm+
September 3, 2009, 08:00 AM
This can result in free thought, good discussion, and protection of important minority ideas (otherwise maybe we'd be in the dark ages still). But, it can protect a fair amount of idiocy. Especially if padded in tenure.

True, but the free thought without accountability feeds upon itself and creates intractable arguments via-a-vis *established* facts.

Double Naught Spy
September 3, 2009, 08:04 AM
ColdCoffeeMug, ask your prof to bring in any newspaper accounts he has where this has been documented to happen. That should slow him down.

Your professor's not only ignorant, but willing so. I won't even blame it on being liberal at this point--ignorance isn't just a liberal thing--but he's obviously generally a blockhead. I'm still honestly amazed how many people I've met in the educational fields that are enthusiastically ignorant and stubbornly closed-minded, and he's one of them.

I am continually amazed by how many people think those in education are ignorant or closed minded because they don't share the same views as the person making the claim. Based on what I read on this board, nearly everyone in education, the media, the government, all liberals, and a lot of cops must be blockheads because they don't share our views. Keep in mind that we make some pretty naive and ignorant claims as well.

Deus Machina
September 3, 2009, 08:42 AM
I am continually amazed by how many people think those in education are ignorant or closed minded because they don't share the same views as the person making the claim. Based on what I read on this board, nearly everyone in education, the media, the government, all liberals, and a lot of cops must be blockheads because they don't share our views. Keep in mind that we make some pretty naive and ignorant claims as well.

Now, I never said that as a complete blanket statement, and I'd thank you very much not to assume I did. And note that I did say that it's not just a liberal thing; the far right often honestly frighten me with some of their statements but this isn't the place for that.

Admittedly, it's the people we disagree with that stand out.

I don't have any problem with differing opinions, as long as people admit it's just that: opinion. If you can't back anything with solid fact or try to pass your opinion off as fact or law, or try to force it upon other people under the guise of "I have a degree in [likely unrelated field] so I'm RIGHT!" then you need to quiet down until you can back it up.

"I don't see the use for a handgun, and don't think you can trust gun show dealers." Opinion, respectable, no accusations.

"Gun show dealers routinely file off serial numbers/sell unregistered FA guns/will saw off shotguns illegally, etc." Announced erroneously as fact without evidence or even anecdote, is simply slander.

What my problem with educators is--and again, this is hardly a blanket statement--is that they are only people, the same as any group. But they seem to be just as narrow-minded, ignorant, and biased as the public at large, in many jobs that, by definition, should require that they keep an unbiased view, and learn the facts and statistics before announcing their viewpoint to the people they're paid to teach.

Sav .250
September 3, 2009, 08:59 AM
I`m thinking this guy is a closet.........anti gun dope.

Owen
September 3, 2009, 09:41 AM
i'd find a flier to the next gun show, and ask him to come along so he can educate you on what he's talking about.

Fryerpower
September 3, 2009, 09:49 AM
Perhaps you and the professor can take a field trip together to the next gun show.

http://floridagunshows.com/Schedule.htm

I'll pay his enterance fee.

-Jim
(PS. I own a gun without a serial number on it... It was my Great-Great-Grandpa's double barrel shotgun. It was made sometime between 1885 and 1907. Shhhh! Don't tell anyone!)

Fryerpower
September 3, 2009, 09:57 AM
Call him on it. Tell him you think he is not mistaken but lieing.

Not a good way to treat anyone, friend or enemy. He is misguided. Try a little logic and a field trip.

Besides, the OP is one of his students. Talk about asking to get screwed over on a grade!

-Jim

Old Fuff
September 3, 2009, 09:57 AM
I have attended gun shows for over 60 years, and never saw a gun with a defaced serial number. What I have seen is law enforcement officers from all levels of government - some on duty, while others were simply enjoying the show. It would be next to impossible to display such a firearm and not have it discovered. This is also the reason criminals seldom try to buy guns at gun shows. It would be like trying to purchase something at a police station.

I presume that if vendors were actually selling guns with defaced serial numbers there would be a lot of reports of such an outrage in the mostly anti-gun mainstream news media. Thus your professor should be able to google up some examples. You might try to do the same to help save him the trouble. :evil:

Yoda
September 3, 2009, 10:01 AM
I've never understood why anyone would bother filing off a serial number. If the gun is stolen, then filing off the number only highlights the fact that there's something wrong with the gun, and by the way, you get arrested anyway for the defaced serial number.

Ask the professor why anyone would file off a number? What is the advantage?

- - - Yoda

Baba Louie
September 3, 2009, 10:05 AM
Sometimes people say the darndest things!

I think it was correct of you to challenge him in class in front of your peers... and while it may go hard on you should he choose to make your life hell as a result, your challenge coupled with the grad student's assertion on your point is refreshing and should be a lesson to the other students in class.

While I do not doubt that ner do wells might sell non serialed firearms outta the trunk transactions of modified slightly warm weapons in the parking lot of a gun show; no licensed dealer in his or her right mind would jeopardize their livelihood by engaging in blatant criminal activity.

Never seen it once in the few decades I've been going to gunshows, myself. Antiques (pre 68 GCA) w/ no serial numbers... Yeah those I've seen. People doing transactions in the parking lot? Seen those too.

I would now begin to wonder about other items of educational esoterica said professor is bringing forth and presenting as "knowledge". Ya know? :rolleyes:

DHJenkins
September 3, 2009, 10:11 AM
He's your professor. As much as I love to shove people's lies in their faces, and as big a dope as he may be, he can still flunk you for no good reason. Arguing with him would make the anonymous people on this board happy, but it will not serve you well.

Just keep your head down and graduate; then you can feel free to audit (sit in on) his future classes and make him look like a fool. I did that a couple times and it's the most fun you can have with your clothes on.

4v50 Gary
September 3, 2009, 10:13 AM
I've never seen a firearm that had its serial numbers removed. I've seen a firearm that had its serial numbers stamped out, but it was a confiscated gun and the fellow who had it was authorized by his agency to take it to armorer's school to butcher it some more.

Fryerpower
September 3, 2009, 10:15 AM
He's your professor. As much as I love to shove people's lies in their faces, and as big a dope as he may be, he can still flunk you for no good reason. Arguing with him would make the anonymous people on this board happy, but it will not serve you well.

Just keep your head down and graduate; then you can feel free to audit (sit in on) his future classes and make him look like a fool. I did that a couple times and it's the most fun you can have with your clothes on.

This is twice in one day I have used this quote...

"I spent four years prostrate to the higher mind, got my paper
And I was free."

-Jim

ghoster
September 3, 2009, 10:18 AM
come on guys, come clean with the kid.:cool:

the guy at the far corner of the tent with the shifty eyes. :scrutiny:

give him a wink and he will take you to the stelth tent and you can get numberless guns, c-4, claymors, gernades, missels or what ever else you want.:what:

2 for 1 if your from a mexican drug cartel.:neener:

im saving up for a balistic home defence missle.

i would get all warm and fuzzy knowing i was spending money being taught bs buy a moron.:banghead:

might want to send a letter to the dean.

hso
September 3, 2009, 10:19 AM
While the professor is probably lying, I did see a gun with a defaced serial number at a gun show once, but not on a table. That's out of 20 years going to shows.

A guy walked up to the table I was helping with and wanted to sell a pistol. When we looked at it we saw that the serial number had been defaced. We told the owner that he was carrying a felony violation around with him and that no one in their right mind would be interested in the thing. He made some excuse and left.

As pointed out, if a gun is old enough it may not have a serial number, but that's not what your prof is talking about.

Offer to take him to a gun show and help him perform field research on the accuracy of the information he's operating from.

Vibe
September 3, 2009, 10:34 AM
To answer your question...No. I've never run accross a defaced serial number at any show or from any dealer.

But you might return another query to him.

What type of gunshow "loophole" would exist if:

1) Everyones ID was flagged as "elegible" or "inelegible" for gun sales. All initial issuances would be "elegible" - convictions would automatically get those IDs confiscated and replaced with an "inelegible" flagged ID. No need for a "background" check - just check IDs. No need for the "extra" manpower to run the "system", and no worries of the system being down, no false positives, etc.

2)Ask what loophole would exist had Miranda been decided before Miller. Because Miller was decided based upon a "lack of presented evidence" (evidence which existed in abundence) -all that was lacking was a defense to present it. Miller was not represented. Therefore ANY infringement based upon the Miller decision is tainted.
Their "test" was the "of use to the Militia" test - and ALL weapons are - in one way or another - "of use to the Militia".

You might also point out that SCOTUS has also issued rulings that it is unconstitutional to tax ,charge a fee ,or license the exercise of a Right.

pbearperry
September 3, 2009, 10:39 AM
Some folks actually believe that if you lie enough about something,it will become the truth.Sarah Brady has been doing it for years.They just spurt anything out to sell their side.

LeonCarr
September 3, 2009, 10:42 AM
Take your Professor shooting :).

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

AR-15Nutt
September 3, 2009, 11:02 AM
in my 50+ years of attending "Gun Shows" i have seen a few S/Ns defaced, NOT intentionally, but by over refinishing, over polishing/buffing and "enhancing" the overall appearance of the gun, i once owned (cir.1964ad) a Winchester M-92 that had about 75% of the S/N obliterated by the above mentioned procedures. it was a very nice looking rifle at a distance, but up close a real disaster, but for $25.00 i couldn't pass on it. sold it mid 1970s for $250.00.., 10X profit, not too bad, today any Winchester M-92 in 70%+ sells for $2000.00, saw one at a show a few months back that was 95%, the owner wanted $3900.00, :eek: it was a 44-40 Win.

wrc
September 3, 2009, 11:06 AM
I've never understood why anyone would bother filing off a serial number. If the gun is stolen, then filing off the number only highlights the fact that there's something wrong with the gun, and by the way, you get arrested anyway for the defaced serial number.

It eliminates the backtrace (if done correctly). This is useful protection for straw buyers who resell to traffickers. It is also of use to a criminal disposing of a weapon.

There's the federal law (http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/18/I/44/922) against it, which provides for "up to five years". There's also state laws with similar penalties.

I don't spend my time buying arms in "illegal gun markets", but knowing markets, I suspect that a firearm with an obliterated serial number runs at a risk-adjusted discount.

If the federal penalty for possession/sale/etc of a firearm with a defaced serial number was changed to a mandatory minimum sentence of five (or more) years, I think that it might impact the so-called "illegal gun market" in a positive way for the rest of us. I could be very wrong, though :).

GoWolfpack
September 3, 2009, 11:08 AM
Originally Posted by Deus Machina
Your professor's not only ignorant, but willing so. I won't even blame it on being liberal at this point--ignorance isn't just a liberal thing--but he's obviously generally a blockhead. I'm still honestly amazed how many people I've met in the educational fields that are enthusiastically ignorant and stubbornly closed-minded, and he's one of them.

I say this carefully. I have spent years in academia outside of being an undergrad student, and I have a lot of respect for the culture.

Someone once pointed out to me that people can have crazy, wrong, or extreme views in academia because "if they are wrong, it doesn't matter".

This can result in free thought, good discussion, and protection of important minority ideas (otherwise maybe we'd be in the dark ages still). But, it can protect a fair amount of idiocy. Especially if padded in tenure.

Just wait until libertarianism and gun rights become more fashionable. Then it'll be a wave of academic posturing to support it. Sigh..

I invite you to examine the writings of Dr. Mike Adams (http://townhall.com/columnists/MikeAdams/) for counter examples. Liberal, democrat, socialist, statist, left-leaning thought is celebrated and encouraged, indoctrinated from day one at many schools.

Conservative, pro-gun, libertarian*, or Christian thoughts and statements are either actively discouraged or simply ignored.

*It's been my experience that many college students who label themselves libertarian lack an understanding of libertarian principles beyond legalizing drugs. I can't speak about professors, but a pertinant note nonetheless.

KarenTOC
September 3, 2009, 11:10 AM
While I do not doubt that ne'er do wells might sell non-serialed firearms in out-of-the-trunk transactions of modified slightly warm weapons in the parking lot of a gun show, no licensed dealer in his or her right mind would jeopardize their livelihood by engaging in blatant criminal activity.

Seems to me the parking lot of a gunshow would be the LAST place to sell hot guns out of the trunk of a car. Maybe in the parking lot of your local discount liquor store, but at a gunshow full of on- and off-duty cops? Doesn't make sense.

neverjeg
September 3, 2009, 12:37 PM
Some people only lean the hard way. Buy your professor a cheap gun. Have him scratch off the serial number and take it himself to a gun show to sell. I think he will then understand.

dev_null
September 3, 2009, 12:43 PM
Without a citation, it's worthless. As a professor, obliged to uphold academic honesty policies, he knows that. He also knows he's got a bully pulpit and a captive audience.

22lr
September 3, 2009, 12:50 PM
I know a dealer who accidentally bought a gun that had the serial filed. He didnt get into any serious trouble but he sure as crap wont do it again, :mad:.

stchman
September 3, 2009, 12:57 PM
Your professor must be anti-gun and an idiot. No one in the class is going to tell the professor he/she is FOS because they fear a bad grade. MOST people that talk about guns have very little to no knowledge about guns. Take this idiot to a gun show and challenge him to find a gun with a serial number filed off.

I have gone to many a gun show and NEVER found a firearm with filed off serial numbers.

Besides, gun shows are not the source of illegal weapons getting into the hands of violent criminals.

If one wants a gun and is a convicted felon all one has to do is go to the urban areas of major city, whip out a couple of hundred dollars, and they can buy a gun.

These anti-gun people refuse to acknowledge facts.

deadin
September 3, 2009, 01:00 PM
has anyone here ever come across defaced serial numbers at a gun show?

I came across one just last year. It was probably the third one I've seen in only 50 years of going to gun shows. (and I've looked at and handled a lot of guns.)

ThrottleJockey72
September 3, 2009, 01:06 PM
Just wait until libertarianism and gun rights become more fashionable. Then it'll be a wave of academic posturing to support it. Sigh..

I can't wait!!! Any idea when this is scheduled to happen? I would like to be cryogenically frozen and thawed out on that day.

Grey_Mana
September 3, 2009, 01:08 PM
MIT has most of it's classes online for free (http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/web/courses/av/).
Anyone wanting a quality education (but without the piece of paper at the end), have at it.

ColdCoffeeMug
September 3, 2009, 01:08 PM
This is pretty much the answer I assumed I'd get. The big thing for me is that it brings up a credibility issue. I'm pretty savvy on gun laws, but there are other aspects of research that I'm not to quick on and if he's so woefully wrong on this aspect, it calls into question other topics that we'll be relying on him to be my first source of information. I'm just going to let it die and hold the information he presents with a more critical eye. I can't call him out because it's a small class and the style of the work we present is up to his interpretation and grading. I can't risk failing this class. He's a self-described conservative but from this interaction has all the markings of a major anti.:banghead: I like the suggestion of taking him to a gun show, but I think the odds of that happening are less than the odds of me doing naked cartwheels through downtown...

ColdCoffeeMug
September 3, 2009, 01:11 PM
I've got a peer reviewed essay on the matter that if the mods will leave this thread open long enough, I can transpose the information tonight after class. That little bit is rather interesting.

blazerking78
September 3, 2009, 01:38 PM
If one wants a gun and is a convicted felon all one has to do is go to the urban areas of major city, whip out a couple of hundred dollars, and they can buy a gun.


Or if one is a convicted felon from Montana, they can just go to any gun store and purchase a firearm legally. In Montana all gun rights are restored as per the state constitution once a felon discharges his or her sentence. I'm not sure, but I have heard that Texas and Florida are the same way.

Werewolf
September 3, 2009, 02:04 PM
Presenting the info your prof presented as fact is in my experience a big no no at most univerities. They can present as opinion as pointed out by other posters here but as fact which is easily disproved - no.

Take the issue up with the Dean of the College of what ever Criminal Science falls under. You may be surprised by the result.

9mm+
September 3, 2009, 02:05 PM
Or if one is a convicted felon from Montana, they can just go to any gun store and purchase a firearm legally. In Montana all gun rights are restored as per the state constitution once a felon discharges his or her sentence. I'm not sure, but I have heard that Texas and Florida are the same way.

While this is true for Montana state law, it's still against federal law for a convicted felon to purchase firearms anywhere in the US. It's just another shining example of our US legal contradictions and conundrums...

doc2rn
September 3, 2009, 02:18 PM
Filing off or defacing a serial number no longer is a means of getting rid of the serial number. Used to be a vialble method up until the late 70s early 80s. Along came science and with acid washing the smoothed surface we can raise the number from the impression of the press on the slide making the metal under the stamp denser thus visable again.
I have only seen one weapon with an altered serial number, and that was at the home of a suicide attempt by a distraught husband back in '95. The lab easily raised the number back and found it was the same weapon he had legally purchased and filled out the proper paperwork on.
With today's modern scientific breakthroughs your professor seems ill informed. It is a felony to even be in posession of a firearm with an altered serial number.

SharpsDressedMan
September 3, 2009, 02:35 PM
This is an example of a professor, steeped in scholasticism, dispensing his unsupported version of knowledge to the naive and unsuspecting. The damage that he is creating at this level of education is possuibly irreparable. Here we have an eager mind, paying good money for an education, only to get half or non-truths pumped into him (her), to gratify a professor's ego or misguided philosophy. What most all the above have told you is the real truth. Only FOOLS would stand a table or walk a gunshow with guns with filed numbers, illegal machineguns, etc, and expect to walk freely for long. Many legit gunowners attending a gunshow would not even tolerate a fool like that, and might turn them in just to keep the reputation of the gunshow intact. The police (usually working for the event holder)even INSPECT carried in guns at the gunshows here in Ohio, and would most likely spot a filed serial number gun immediately. I guess we need to be vigilant of our educators, even at the college level, and challenge them accordingly, or report them to THEIR bosses. Constant vigilance and challenging authority is what makes this country FREE.

Pweller
September 3, 2009, 02:59 PM
I am college educated, but I have to say the older I get the less I value the opinion of a professor who hasn't been out in the real world. I find most professors are teaching about subjects that they have studied carefully, but have never actually practiced.

It's like taking a business class from somebody who has never actually run, or been involved in, an actual business. Everything they say is in my mind, unsupported without the background of experience. Essentially, it's all hearsay. Furthermore, if they were so knowledgeable about business, then they'd actually be running their own business instead of teaching college!

As a criminal justice student, how many of your professors have actually worked in the field? If they haven't, how can they really know what is the truth, and how valuable is their knowledge?

You are smart to question your professors, after all, this is about your future.

Tim the student
September 3, 2009, 03:14 PM
He's a self-described conservative but from this interaction has all the markings of a major anti.

The two are not mutually exclusive, just as "liberal" and anti are also not mutually exclusive. Usually, but not always.

kda
September 3, 2009, 03:31 PM
These days we are seeing bald faced lying all the time. Folks simply making stuff up out of thin air in an attempt to make a point or persuade someone. More specifically we see politicians and university professors changing what they say depending on the audience. They say what they wish was true, even when they know (or should know) it is not really true or accurate. It is now happening so often and at such high levels of our universities and our government that lying is becoming almost acceptable and expected. This dramatically complicates discussions of just about everything including 2nd Amendment rights and gun control agendas.

As gun owners, we are going to need to be especially careful to sort out the truth before we act. We need to be vigilant and untiring in our efforts to get good honest responsible information interjected into these discussions.

Z-Michigan
September 3, 2009, 03:41 PM
This can result in free thought, good discussion, and protection of important minority ideas (otherwise maybe we'd be in the dark ages still). But, it can protect a fair amount of idiocy. Especially if padded in tenure.

Actually nearly all important inventions came from private inventors, not from professors at universities. And so did many of the greatest works of literature. Modern universities are a giant bureaucracy much like government. I say this as the child of someone with a Ph.D. who is a university administrator, and with two relatives with Yale Ph.D.'s, not to mention my own advanced degree from a very well known private university I don't feel like naming at the moment.

I know this is a thread veer so I'll stop here. I don't support ignorance, I simply wish to note that people can have "credentials" and still be quite ignorant - but are more dangerous because many of the other ignorant people assume that the person with credentials knows more or better than them.

Vern Humphrey
September 3, 2009, 03:49 PM
I am continually amazed by how many people think those in education are ignorant or closed minded because they don't share the same views as the person making the claim.
The question is not one of opinion, but one of facts. The professor said dealers at gun show file off serial numbers -- he didn't present that as an opinion, but as a fact. He was wrong, and presenting a wrong fact to a class is an act of intellectual dishonesty.

Tommygunn
September 3, 2009, 03:50 PM
Good grief.
I have bought a number of guns at gun shows and examined many many many many more that I did not buy. Not ONCE did I see a defaced serial number.
The only time there's ever a gun w/o such a number is if it was made before 1968. Makers were not required by law to s/n their guns prior to '68. Many (maybe most) did, but even then some didn't. I have a Semiauto .22RF Remington 550-1 my father owned that was made in 1950 and it has no serial #.

This professor is severely misquided. He may not be lying, if he's "bought into" some liberal "excrement" about gun shows but he definantly needs his eyes open.

mgkdrgn
September 3, 2009, 03:58 PM
To put it bluntly, your "professor" is a moron. I would seriously question anything else he/she is attempting to "teach" you, and look for another section of the class taught by someone else.

jfh
September 3, 2009, 04:26 PM
A way into discussing this with him might be to inquire further about his definition of "gun dealers." My bet is that he is using the antigunner's definition of a dealer as "anyone who sells a gun." That is, that is what he will run with. Then, depending on your need for a good grade, you can gradually elicit more plaintext revelations of his antigun biases.

Jim H.

Nicky Santoro
September 3, 2009, 04:34 PM
OP,
The most charitable appellation I might ascribe to your professor is "pant load".

Vern Humphrey
September 3, 2009, 04:44 PM
A less charitable might be "fraud." After all, students pay a lot of money for college classes. A professor who deliberately or negligently puts out bad information is defrauding them of the value of the class.

jimmyraythomason
September 3, 2009, 05:41 PM
If I were to see a gun for sale at a gun show (or anywhere) I would just assume it was a ATF sting operation and would put miles between me and it.

Diamondback6
September 3, 2009, 05:43 PM
I'd say bet him dinner at the most expensive joint in town that if you two got to a gunshow looking for 'em you'll "Fail to Find".

Might as well make a little off the tool if you can, right? (A fool and his money are soon parted--so why not be the beneficiary of that parting if you can?lol)

gilfo
September 3, 2009, 05:48 PM
Ah the great education system we have here in Florida. It is why I am paying thru the nose to send my daughter to a school in another state.

Legionnaire
September 3, 2009, 06:01 PM
A professor who deliberately or negligently puts out bad information is defrauding them of the value of the class. Well put ... and I'm an academic (and a conservative ... and a shooter ... and a hunter).

KarenTOC
September 3, 2009, 06:04 PM
I am college educated, but I have to say the older I get the less I value the opinion of a professor who hasn't been out in the real world. I find most professors are teaching about subjects that they have studied carefully, but have never actually practiced.

I agree. The best college-level instructor I ever had was one who hadn't even completed his college degree. The subject he taught (part time) was what he made his living doing. What a difference!

TEDDY
September 3, 2009, 06:22 PM
I would very seriously consider an other teacher.as I would question his truthfulness in any statement.what else has he lied about.some of you give him the benifit of mistaken I dont he is a lier plain and simple.as a professonal
he is supposed to know his facts as that is his professson to teach the facts.get rid of him.if no one questions these activists they will keep on corrupting there students.:rolleyes::uhoh::fire:

PandaBearBG
September 3, 2009, 06:49 PM
Your professor is an idiot, basing facts of imaginations and probably dirty hippie folk-lore because that is what it sounds like. NO ONE vending at a gun-show would risk their license, reputation, freedom, and right to carry by commiting such a grave and serious felony. You and your buddy, put together a well organize and precise presentation clarify the laws and regulations of firearm sales and background checks in your state or other state and present it to you teacher and ask him to dispprove your findings as well finding ANY proof of his outrageous hippie minded claims, that should put him in his place.

I HATE hippies!

SharpsDressedMan
September 3, 2009, 07:16 PM
Diamondback6, I like your suggestion. Nothing like losing a bet & having to pay up to leave a lasting impression.

Diamondback6
September 3, 2009, 07:24 PM
SDM, the other angle is if my tuition's being defrauded out of me by some charlatan not delivering on contracted education services, might as well try to recover some of my money, right?

Especially fun with the boneheads who can't or won't learn... that way you have a steady revenue-stream. (Or at least always have someone paying for decent meals...) lol

ColdCoffeeMug
September 3, 2009, 09:38 PM
I can't drop the class now because registration has closed for the term. Even if they were open, this is the only section being taught. It's more than just a class time thing, the semester is based upon reviewing and making recommendations upon an anti-crime policy in an attempt to rectify my town's ranking as the number one murder rate and violent crime rate per capita in the state. It's something to the tune of a $34 million dollar program and apparently our opinion will hold some weight when we present to the mayor, sheriff and various other members of the city government. We'll all be published and it's one of those things that can make an academic career. Aside from directly confronting his beliefs stated above along with his statements that, "gun lobbyists wrongly believe that firearm possession is a human right," the only thing i think I can do is try to work the system and approach everything he says with suspicion until verified. The firearms subject is only one facet of this class.

jmr40
September 3, 2009, 10:52 PM
I didn't read the whole thread so someone else may have suggested this. Invite him to attend a gunshow as a "research project". Challenge him to find even 1 gun with the SN filed off. Heck, call it a class project and challenge all of the other students to find one at any shop or show.

Kman
September 3, 2009, 11:34 PM
your prof is simply in lustful agreement with a headline chasing media, he may or may not have the ability to rationalize, your best bet is to suggest a class meeting at a show, as stated above by JMR40, it could be a project, dissertation, strive to get it published! whatever, just allow them to explore the firearm culture, see that we are not all gang banging criminals.
I have in my years of scrounging around shows, 1989-present, run across two firearms that were intentionally defaced of serialization. Both times the whispers of "illegal gun" passed through the crowd much more quickly than the firearms themselves.

Officers'Wife
September 3, 2009, 11:36 PM
Interesting, I've only been to two gun shows, one in Indiana the other in Kentucky. In both a fair percentage of the 'customers', onlookers, browsers or whatever were law enforcement. Considering that a local sheriff's office would get beaucoup brownie points for such a bust your prof's claim could be arrested for vagrancy as it has no visible means of support.

22-rimfire
September 3, 2009, 11:44 PM
Never seen a defaced serial number at a gun show on a firearm. I have been to MANY gun shows. Your professor does not know what he's talking about.

He mentioned the "gunshow loophole". There is no loophole. All dealers have to abide by both state and federal law. Of private sales are legal in the state, again there is no loophole. Folks just buying and selling their personal weapons.

alfack
September 4, 2009, 12:00 AM
Many people that do teach are ignorant. They spend so much time, in the hallowed halls, with their nose in books, studying one single subject, that they end up without any common sense or base of reality. All they have to go by is what others tell them. No personal experience to confirm or deny statements.

dev_null
September 4, 2009, 02:14 AM
Take the issue up with the Dean of the College of what ever Criminal Science falls under. You may be surprised by the result.

Like your final grade for the course, for instance. =:-0

kd7nqb
September 4, 2009, 04:00 AM
Your professor is an idiot not surprising since he is an academic after all. (I say this as a recent graduate) I have seen one gun with an obliterated serial number and it was purchased by a guy under shady conditions ON THE STREET not at a gun show.

rbernie
September 4, 2009, 09:36 AM
Too many posts needed deletin' to keep this one open. I trust that the OP has been addressed - filing off serial numbers is in violation of federal law and that is almost never seen (due to the lack of profit and the potential risk of the activity).

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