[Desertdog]

http://www.sierratimes.com/03/10/29/article_jj.htm
California Fires: An Open Letter to the Environmentalists
By J.J. Johnson

In case the rest of you are living in a cave, there are fires raging out of control in the Los Angeles/San Diego Area. They are so serious that many of us here in Southern Nevada are checking bed space and hotel rooms in case of major evacuations from the Los Angeles basin. As of the time of this writing, over 50,000 homes are threatened, and the situation is changing by the minute.

At least 17 people are dead and it has consumed more than 800,000 acres stretching from the Mexican border to the suburbs northeast of Los Angeles. And The southwestern part of the Unites States is gearing up for war against fire, smoke, ash, and wind.

And so while everyone wonders what the rest of the week will bring, we'd like to take this opportunity to ask some Californians a question. Maybe some of you are victims, reading this message from a shelter somewhere:

Are you one of the people that sent a contribution to the Sierra Club?

Are you among the people that thought protecting the environment was among the most important issues in politics?

You see, much of this carnage that is affecting all of us...could have been prevented. A little brush clearing, downing a few bark-beetle infested trees, and a few more cows being allowed to graze down much of what is burning could have been done, and was in fact advocated for years.

But what do we know? We're just that bunch of rural country bumpkins that were written off by politicians since we were too busy working and paying taxes to fill our coffers with enough 'guilt money' to lobby for green policies - that helped cause all of this.

This was bound to happen sooner or later anyway. After all, before this, we'd been dealing with a rash of arsonists torching anything they didn't like, to punctuate their warped message about how we're 'killing the environment'.

So, you think maybe it's gone a bit too far?

It will be interesting to see how long before politicians will start throwing these green lobbyists right out of their offices if/when they show up again. The policies of the so-called 'environmentalists/preservationists' have finally met the law of diminishing marginal returns.

In other words, 'the chickens have come home to roost' - or maybe I should say...roast.

California, is burning, America - the 'greenest' state in the Union..

In this more perfect, and more enlightened society called California, they began to listen to people who thought they were smarter than no less than 5000 years of human history. They took time tested practices and threw them out of the window for the sake of environmental loudmouths and sympathizers. Go ahead, Sierra Club, Nature Conservancy, Earth First - try to deny it - that is if you have a home or office left to put out a press release. C'mon - tell us how all of this is Bush's fault. Tell us how those eeevil corporations are behind all this; and please tell us how your 'green religon' didn't spawn thugs who start fires like these.

Sow the wind - reap the whirlwind, and those Santa Ana's are a killer, huh?

And so here's our message for the green freaks that are reading this and spitting nails right now:

a.. When our local communities decide it's time to clear the brush in old growth forests, we don't want to hear 'jack' from you folks anymore.

b.. When it's time to cut down those insect infested trees, sue us all you want - we're gonna do it anyway.

c.. Humans have more rights that animals and plants.

d.. Anyone in California wanting to 'save the forest' will gain about as much respect as Islamic terrorists.

e.. We still don't negotiate with terrorists.

America, witness the wreckage of a the once again failed concept - Government trying to play god.

Ironic that it had to be California, but Montana, Arizona, Oregon, and Colorado are just a few of the states that can say 'been there - done that'. They too, have had to deal with fire prevention efforts being squashed in courts due to the actions of green obstructionists.

Hopefully, rain may come soon and help squelch this growing inferno (firefighters can only do so much). After that, perhaps some common sense about the environment may rise out of the ashes. But until then, you green groups need not send out any fund-raising letters for a while.

....they'd only be more fuel for the fire.

[LawDog]

Is this viewpoint getting much media time in California?

LawDog

[Desertdog]

Not that I know of.
Of course the main stream media here is not likely to mention a word about it.

[critter]

Ooooooohhhhhh DD! How terribly UN-PC you are! Doncha know that any group of dim-bulb eco-natzi-freaks who make enough noise (even though they make up a small decimal fraction of 1% of the population) get all the press AND are the ONLY ones to be 'smart' enough to have ALL the 'correct' answers!! We must bow to their superiority never mind how much it costs, how many homes it cost and no matter how many lives it cost.

<Sarcastic rant mode off!>

Any group who try to control what they do not own should be looked at as criminal socialists and jailed!

<Ordinary rant mode off!>

[Standing Wolf]

Is this viewpoint getting much media time in California?

Only among intelligent people.

[Baba Louie]

J.J. Johnson lives in Pahrump (over the hill from LV) which sits about two stone throws from the CA border, literally.
The Eco warriors/worriers don't care. Fire is good, its "natural", man shouldn't be there anyway, etc.

sigh

Adios

[ravinraven]

Religious fundamentalists of any stripe, Islamic, Christian, Green, Politically Correct, Multicultural [read anti-cultural], or any other that you can think of, are traitors to the society that supports them and welcomes them.

There has always been a way to deal with traitors. We have to realize that we are someday going to have to deal with these traitors. If the government won't do it, guess who that leaves responsible for the continuation of liberty and civilization.

rr

[Malone LaVeigh]

This is mostly trash. Junk science. The only fire that it makes any sense is the ones on the San Bernardino, where the bark beetle has killed a lot of trees. The forest has been trying to log them for a couple of years, but the reguloations make the planning process a lot more cumbersome and lenghty. I don't think they were at the stage where they could have been appealed yet.

Anyway, the trees started dying about three years ago. I was in Big Bear on a fire in '98 and it hadn't started yet. They couldn't have logged all of that ground yet anyway.

J.J. Johnson lives in Pahrump (over the hill from LV)I was there on a toxic waste spill about 6 years ago. Explains a lot.

[Sergeant Bob]

Anyway, the trees started dying about three years ago. I was in Big Bear on a fire in '98 and it hadn't started yet. They couldn't have logged all of that ground yet anyway.
That'd be some awfully tough terrain (and alot of it) to log even if they wanted to try. I motorcycled and hiked those mountains from San Berdoo to Forest Falls, Crestline, Arrowhead, Big Bear, Mt. San Gorgonio, Silverwood. There is no easy way to get into the remote parts of those mountains, that is some rough terrain.
You'd know alot more about it than me I suppose, but I'm thinking the remote areas would have to be logged as well as the inhabited areas. Otherwise if a fire got to the remote portions and topped out, it probably wouldn't matter that the inhabited areas had been thinned?
I think it would be a very expensive proposition and I don't think it would have been profitable enough for commercial logging. Of course now, it wouldn't be hard to get people to agree to it (20-20 hindsight).
I definitely don't think they could have put a very big dent in it in just three years.

[DadOfThree]

ravinraven,
Religious fundamentalists of any stripe, Islamic, Christian, Green, Politically Correct, Multicultural [read anti-cultural], or any other that you can think of, are traitors to the society that supports them and welcomes them
That's a pretty broad stroke to paint. Could the same be said about fundamentalist constitionalists, fundamentalist libertarians, or fundamentalist second ammentment rights activists?

[Augustwest]

There has always been a way to deal with traitors. We have to realize that we are someday going to have to deal with these traitors. If the government won't do it, guess who that leaves responsible for the continuation of liberty and civilization.

So we're gonna execute a bunch of Phish fans because they like trees and are too baked to think?

That's certainly the America I wanna live in...

:rolleyes:

[Keith]

Does anybody ever wonder why just across the border in Mexico they never have these huge wildfires?

Keith

[DaveB]

Religious fundamentalists of any stripe, Islamic, Christian, Green, Politically Correct, Multicultural [read anti-cultural], or any other that you can think of, are traitors to the society that supports them and welcomes them.

There has always been a way to deal with traitors. We have to realize that we are someday going to have to deal with these traitors. If the government won't do it, guess who that leaves responsible for the continuation of liberty and civilization.

It's good to have an enemy, especially when it makes you feel powerful and manly. Have you gotten your brown shirts back from the drycleaners, yet?

db

[KMKeller]

Does anybody ever wonder why just across the border in Mexico they never have these huge wildfires?

Too many border crossers whizzing on the bushes?

[grampster]

What I have always wondered about is why the courts and legislature (state or fed) seem to always bow to the radical greennies. (emphasis on radical) What is it that these folks control that it seems they always get their way. This has been the great mystery to me. Somebody finds an obscure minnow and it 86's a dam that will bring electricity to perhaps millions and creates a new watershed that, yes, changes the status quo, but perhaps offers myriads of other recreational/ecological/business/etc etc oppportunities and it's halted dead in its tracks because of this minnow or a slug or an owl. This stuff continues even today when most of the past decisions about this sort of stuff have been debunked or have gloriously failed to hold water. Example: Myth: The Spotted Owl was going extinct if we cut old growth forrest. Fact: When you cut the old growth forrest and replanted, the new growth forest became a habitat for a type of rat or mouse that the Spotted owl considers to be a hot fudge sundae and the owls are proliferating everywhere in the "new" habitat.

I could go on and on.......but it is too frustrating. I love the wilderness as much as the next guy. I don't leave anything behind out there. If you go where I've been, you would not even know I had been there. So, I am not a pillager, but man can husband the wilderness and the world for OUR benefit and still have the wilderness.

Ahhh well........never mind.

grampster

[Keith]

Actually, there was study done a few years ago indicating that the reason Mexico doesn't have catastrophic fires is because they don't put out fires.

Ie; On the Mexican side small wildfires happen all the time and burn off the fuel (dead brush) before it can reach levels that pose danger. They ignore them and they are small enough (because of lack of fuel) that if they come near a home, the owner can simply beat them out with a shovel or hose them down with his garden hose. No problem.

On the American side we spend billions to attack every fire that comes along, and the fuel collects until it reaches a level that is no longer controllable and sooner or later we have a catastrophe on our hands - whereupon, the state government raises taxes for more fire fighters and equipment to even more aggressively fight fires and create an even bigger catastophe...

We see two "natural cycles" at work here along with the results of each. One is the cycle created by nanny state interference - aggressive fighting of period wildfires and the resulting build up of fuel until it reaches levels that can not be controlled.
And we see natures cycle in Mexico where these periodic fires (often started by lightning, etc) burn off that fuel before it creates a hazard.


Keith

[Augustwest]

What Keith said.

[Zundfolge]

As of the time of this writing, over 50,000 homes are threatened, and the situation is changing by the minute.

At least 17 people are dead and it has consumed more than 800,000 acres stretching from the Mexican border to the suburbs northeast of Los Angeles.

I think the author is missing the point ... Environmentalists HATE HUMANITY!!

They see humans as an INFESTATION on their beautiful Gaia that must be destroyed. The only good human is a dead human.

When environmentalists get their way the human race will be culled down to a few million and those few million will be stuffed into confinement in a single city on each continent and not allowed to spoil nature with their presence.

Its a nice letter and all, but its wasted words ... every time I hear one of these Gaia worshiping SOBs speak I go home and clean my AR15 (to paraphrase Michael Savage :neener: )

[MarkDido]

Anybody remember the firefighters that were killed last year?

The ones who burned to death because the government wouldn't allow fire-bombers to get water from a nearby river because there were some "protected" fish there?

Whatever happend to that case? I hope the families sued the pants off the morons who made that decision.

[DaveB]

Sorry. Wrong answer.

The Department of the Interior deeply regrets the tragic loss of four wildland firefighters on July 10 in Washington State and has an established policy that never puts the Endangered Species Act in front of a response to emergency situations where human lives are at risk.

Within the last 24 hours there have been allegations that requirements under the Endangered Species Act caused delays in responding to the Thirtymile Fire that resulted in the deaths of these firefighters.

The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service wishes to clarify that wildland fires represent an emergency under the Endangered Species Act and that in no circumstances is emergency response to be delayed or obstructed because of Endangered Species Act considerations.

U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service policy expressly states, "Under no circumstances should a Service representative obstruct an emergency response decision....where human life is at stake."

In the case of the Thirtymile Fire, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and National Marine Fisheries Service officials were informed of Forest Service procedures to suppress ongoing fires on July 10 during an interagency briefing on local fires at the Wenatchee/Okanagan National Forest Office in Wenatchee, Washington. The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and the National Marine Fisheries Service did not impose any limitations on the effort to fight the Thirtymile Fire.

From http://news.fws.gov/newsreleases/R9/5EA65E19-9E63-41A9-A6E880DF5E71089D.html

db

[AJ Dual]

Double ditto on what Kieth said...

Actually, there was study done a few years ago indicating that the reason Mexico doesn't have catastrophic fires is because they don't put out fires.

Exactly. Just one year after the big Yelowstone fires they were all marveling at how the park naturally sprung back. :rolleyes:

And environmentalists are going on and on forever about "old growth trees and forests". Well duh.

When all this firefighting lets the scrub load build up, instead of a quick grass fire which is low and small enough to flash right by, ( and clearing out brush that gives the old established trees room), instead you get a mega-fire that is high enough and hot enough to kill old growth too.

There's even trees that can't breed unless a fire passes through and releases their seeds..

Control fires are starting to get more popular with forest managment, unfortunately they're too late, too little, and oft get a bad rap because they grow out of control because it's the first control fire in a long time, if ever, and the fuel-load is too high, which makes for a nice little catch-22...

[Malone LaVeigh]

Anybody remember the firefighters that were killed last year?

The ones who burned to death because the government wouldn't allow fire-bombers to get water from a nearby river because there were some "protected" fish there?

Whatever happend to that case? I hope the families sued the pants off the morons who made that decision. Dave B beat me to it, but I was wondering how long it was going to be before someone repeated that myth. I heard a right-wing talk show host repeat it just the other day. I guess Mark Twain was right when he said a lie can make it around the world while the truth is still putting on it's shoes.

The firefighters at the ThirtyMile Fire died because their supervisors broke just about every rule in the Fire Orders.

[jimpeel]

Anyway, the trees started dying about three years ago. I was in Big Bear on a fire in '98 and it hadn't started yet. They couldn't have logged all of that ground yet anyway.I lived in Arrowbear and Running Springs from 1983 until 1991 and the Pine Bark Beetles were a major problem then. I worked in Big Bear Lake for over a year and I could see the destruction of numerous stands of trees not only in BBL but on the seventeen mile drive to work. It was obvious that the trees had Pine Bark Beetles because they start dying from the top down. There were lots of orange-topped trees.

We would go up to Keller Peak (near Arrowbear) to harvest firewood and there were a number of standing dead trees. I never harvested a standing dead tree as there was enough down and dead to satisfy my needs. You could climb the ladder of the fire watchtower and stand on the platform and look out the entire Ban Bernardino Valley. You could see the forest from Crestline, Strawberry Peak, and the Lake Arrowhead Basin, to the Big Bear Basin. You could see plenty of orange-topped trees from that vantage point.

I was talking to a friend who moved from Arrowbear several years ago and he said that there is no wood cutting allowed on Keller Peak anymore. They are not issuing any permits for standing dead or down and dead.

So to say that the trees have only been dying for the past three years is incorrect at best and disingenuous at the worst.

[Geech]

Religious fundamentalists of any stripe, Islamic, Christian, Green, Politically Correct, Multicultural [read anti-cultural], or any other that you can think of, are traitors to the society that supports them and welcomes them.

There has always been a way to deal with traitors. We have to realize that we are someday going to have to deal with these traitors. If the government won't do it, guess who that leaves responsible for the continuation of liberty and civilization.

Well, DaveB beat me to the Nazi reference, so I'll just say that this is a frightening sentiment. Maybe I'll print this off and tape it to myself for Halloween.

[w4rma]

U.S. Rejected Davis on Aid to Clear Trees
FEMA spent six months studying the governor's request, then turned it down hours before fires began, saying state was already getting funds.

By Gregg Jones and Dan Morain, Times Staff Writers

SACRAMENTO — The Bush administration took six months to evaluate Gov. Gray Davis' emergency request last spring for $430 million to clear dead trees from fire-prone areas of Southern California.

The request was finally denied Oct. 24, only hours before wildfires roared out of control in what has become the largest fire disaster in California history.

Rep. Mary Bono (R-Palm Springs), a leader in the effort to get federal assistance for fire prevention, questioned Thursday why the Federal Emergency Management Agency did not rule sooner.

"FEMA's decision was wrong," Bono said. "The timing couldn't have been worse.... We knew this disaster was going to happen with certainty. It was only a matter of when, and we were trying to beat the clock with removing the dead trees."
…
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-fema31oct31,1,4116024.story?coll=la-home-headlines

[DadOfThree]

Why should the Federal government give money to the California to clear out dead and dying trees when they could just open it up for private citizens to do it for free? Because then it would be called logging and that would be just wrong!! Logging does not have to be clear cut deforestation, selective logging makes for a healthier growth of trees.

[jimpeel]

Rep. Mary Bono (R-Palm Springs), a leader in the effort to get federal assistance for fire prevention, questioned Thursday why the Federal Emergency Management Agency did not rule sooner.
Gee, Mary, did you miss that part about Federal Emergency Management Agency? They need emergencies to manage; and preventing emergencies is not in their job description. The news stated yesterday that FEMA was already starting to hand out checks to those whose homes had been ravaged by the fires. That part they do very well. They should be able to exceed $430 million in a few days and they will tell us all what a wonderful job they are doing for the victims; and the press will nod approvingly and report it as if it were the truth.

[STW]

The environmental news that has popped up, at least here in San Diego, is that it's people's own fault for living in the back country. The fact that the largest fire burned well down into the city of San Diego (10-15 minutes from the harbor) appears to have been a missed point.:banghead:

Environmentalists are much easier to understand when you realize they are first elitist and, like so many we have come to know and love, believe they know what is best and, knowing that, should be given charge to make things in their image. Any fault lies with others not implementing the grand design properly. Perhaps their emblem should not be a tree but the Red Queen from Alice in Wonderland.:cuss:

[Drjones]

Perhaps their emblem should not be a tree but the Red Queen from Alice in Wonderland

The communist flag would be most fitting.

[publius]

The firefighters at the ThirtyMile Fire died because their supervisors broke just about every rule in the Fire Orders.

http://forests.org/archive/america/enspconf.htm

Actually, according to that article I found, it wasn't just about every Standard Fire Order, it was every one.

It also says this:

The final report on the U.S. Forest Service's investigation into the Thirtymile Fire that trapped a crew of inexperienced firefighters on July 10, concluded that dispatchers and commanders assigned to the blaze apparently were unsure for a time whether a firefighting helicopter was allowed under the Endangered Species Act to dip its bucket into the Chewuch River, which is the habitat to rare species of trout and salmon.

Turns out, they were allowed to take the water, but they didn't know that when they needed to know it. Were they unreasonable and foolish to think that there might be some rule saying that the top priority shall be to preserve this or that sacred cow, fish, rodent, or owl?

[Malone LaVeigh]

Turns out, they were allowed to take the water, but they didn't know that when they needed to know it. Were they unreasonable and foolish to think that there might be some rule saying that the top priority shall be to preserve this or that sacred cow, fish, rodent, or owl?That crew watched the fire come at them for a couple of hours IIRC. If the boss had kept the crew together and not allowed them to go up on the talus field, and if they had taken the time to burn out and prepare the deployment zone, they would have all survived. As it was, all of them that stayed on the road and deployed made it. That includes two members of the public that got caught in the canyon without nomex. They had to crawl into a crew member's shelter, but they survived. The ones that didn't make it got caught up the slope and tried to deploy in an unsuitable place.

The point is, there was no need for a water drop. The whole thing is a red herring that's been used by a lot of anti-environmentalists to demagogue the issue.

[jimpeel]

Here's the problem ... YAKIMA, Wash., Sept. 26 - While there was nothing in the Endangered Species Act preventing firefighters from drawing water from a stream in the wilds of Washington state, confusion over the law's provisions appeared to have contributed to a delay in dropping water on a wildfire that cost the lives of four firefighters last July. People don't know what law they are going to violate because there are so many of them that noone can keep track. They have to go to other people to get the information because they are fearful of having the government come after them for the slightest indiscretion.

I believe it was Jefferson who stated that when the laws become so numerous that no man can avoid breaking them, in their day to day dealings, the law would fall into general disrespect by the people.

Another quote by Jefferson describes it best:When governments fear the people there is liberty. When the people fear the government there is tyranny.
- Thomas Jefferson

Those people died as a result of fear of the government, on the part of those in charge, and that they would be sent to prison and/or have their rent and food money confiscated.

The more corrupt the republic, the more numerous the laws
-Tacitus

[publius]

If there was no need for a water drop, why does the Forest Service conclude that commanders were unsure for a while there whether they were allowed to get the water?

Why would anyone with a fire to fight bother to sit around wondering if he's allowed to get something he doesn't need?

And why would anyone wonder whether our laws might value human life or rare critters more?

[MicroBalrog]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/03/10/30_logging.html - another insight on the subject of logging and the environment.

[jimpeel]

Here is a site from the 1999 Seattle University Law Review that discusses the plight of folks living in the area of So. Cal that are beset by the Stevens Kangaroo Rat.

http://wildlife.wisc.edu/courses/375a/readings/endanger%20species.txt

From the article:In another scenario, (second scenario -- jp) you are a resident once again of Riverside County in southern California, a region notorious for wildfires. Unfortunately, the FWS has prevented you from discing n1 , a procedure [*804] used to dig firebreaks to keep your home safe from wildfires. The FWS has taken this position because discing would disturb the burrows of Stephens Kangaroo Rats. You have been applying for permission to disc your property for over a year. Then a wildfire strikes. The fire department urges people to disc their property. The FWS still refuses your requests to disc. When you smell the smoke nearing your home, do you violate federal law by discing the land around your home to protect it, or do you allow the fire to destroy it? Whatever decision you make, the rats will be destroyed.

Unfortunately, these hypotheticals are real-life scenarios.

...

The second scenario is based on the wildfires that struck Southern California in 1993. Pombo & Farrah, supra this note, at 46-47. Twenty-nine families in Riverside County lost their homes to the wildfires. Id. The FWS had in fact prevented the families from digging firebreaks or discing in order to protect the burrows of Stephens Kangaroo Rats. Id. at 47. Michael Rowe decided to disc his property against the FWS's wishes and violate the ESA. Id. Yshmael Garcia obeyed the FWS and did not disc his property. Id. His house burned down and the rats' burrows were destroyed. Id. Mr. Garcia summed it up best: "My home was destroyed by a bunch of bureaucrats in suits and so-called environmentalists who say animals are more important than people." Pombo & Farrah, supra this note, at 47.

[w4rma]

…
The Allegation
People's homes burned down in California because they could not clear vegetation around their homes due to prohibitions on such clearing designed to protect the endangered Stephens' kangaroo rat.

The Response

The General Accounting Office (GAO) investigated these allegations and reported to the Congress in June, 1994, that the California fire was fanned by 80-mile-per-hour winds, and jumped concrete barriers, highways and a canal. According to GAO, "while some owners continue to believe that disking around their homes prior to the fire would have saved their homes, we found no evidence to support these views. Homes where weed abatement, including disking, had been performed were destroyed, while other homes in the same general area survived even though no evidence of weed abatement was present. Overall, county officials and other fire experts believe that weed abatement by any means would have made little difference in whether or not a home was destroyed in the California fire." Firemen said clearing hundreds of feet of ground would not have mattered, because fires of such ferocity can leapfrog more than a mile with searing ashes or hot embers. A university professor who has studied such fires declared this fire was something that "not even the entire US Army could have stopped." Finally, GAO con- cluded, "on the basis of the experience and views of fire officials and other experts . . . the loss of homes during the California fire was not related to the prohibition of disking in areas inhabited by the Stephens' kangaroo rat."

California: The Kern Coun Farmer
…
http://www.turnerlearning.com/efts/species.970730/endang1.html

…
In Riverside County, meanwhile, burned-out homeowners charged that federal regulations designed to protect the rare Stephens kangaroo rat had prevented them from clearing tall brush around their homes. My home was destroyed by a bunch of bureaucrats in suits and so-called environmentalists who say animals are more important than people, claimed one distraught resident quoted in the Times. I'm now homeless, and it all began with a little rat. (The allegation that wildlife regulations prevented fuel clearance is a canard. The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service actually encourages the mowing of grasses that surround homes for fire safety; the problem is that homeowners find mowing too troublesome, preferring simply to rototill their ecosystem under.)

These attacks were, in effect, the opening salvos in a major political offensive to unleash further pyromaniac suburbanization. Thus, Representative Ken Calvert (R-Riverside), supported by the powerful Riverside Building Industry Association and the Farm Bureau, proposed a radical revision of the Endangered Species Act to protect property rights. At stake were 77,000 acres of federally protected habitat that developers had long coveted. Likewise along the Laguna coast, pro-growth forces were orchestrating a hue and cry against the gnatcatcher. This small, almost extinct bird was depicted as an arsonist through a bizarre syllogism that equated any undeveloped landscape or protected habitat with a fire hazard ipso facto.
…
http://www.rut.com/mdavis/incendiaryother.html

…
A similar scenario unfolded south of Oregon, in California. After 29 homes were destroyed by sweeping fires near Riverside, ESA opponents alleged that protection afforded the endangered Stephens' kangaroo rat was to blame for the unfortunate devastation. As part of the plan to protect the species' habitat, "disking" land for weed abatement (turning the soil to reduce vegetation surrounding homes and provide a protective barrier from wildfire) was prohibited – but other forms of weed abatement, such as mowing, were allowed.

When asked to determine the facts surrounding the loss of homes during the California fire, the United States General Accounting Office (GAO) concluded: "No data or evidence exists to conclusively determine why the fire destroyed each of the 29 homes. ...weed abatement by any means would have made little difference in whether or not a home was destroyed in the California fire."

Congressman Gerry Studds (D-MA), a long-time supporter of the ESA and champion of strong reauthorization legislation the last two sessions of Congress, issued a press release entitled, "The Rat Didn't Do It," asserting: "The GAO report should quiet those who, in the aftermath of the fire, seized upon the personal tragedies of these California homeowners to advance their own agenda to eviscerate the Endangered Species Act."
…
http://www.awionline.org/wildlife/ag-esa.htm

[jimpeel]

Does anyone here deny the fact that a man was arrested for the unlawful "taking" of an endangered species because he "may" have run over a Tipton Kangaroo rat with his tractor? That his tractor was confiscated for attempting to till his own land because he was disturbing the Tipton Kangaroo Rat? That the fine for same is $300,000? Story (http://www.thedesertsun.com/news/stories/opinion/963879676.shtml)

The Tipton Kangaroo Rat is distinguished by one singular characteristic -- one one-hundredth of an inch in the length of the hind foot. ONE ONE-HUNDREDTH OF AN INCH! To preserve that one one-hundredth of an inch, we will set aside miles and miles of human habitat -- farm habitat -- the same farm habitat that feeds the world. Of course, it matters not a whit that humans starve. They are far less important than any other creature on the face of the Earth.

Take this for another example:

Story (http://www.faultline.org/news/2002/07/gnatcatcher.html)

The coastal California gnatcatcher has been losing ground for years. When listing it as threatened in 1993, FWS estimated only about 2500 pairs remained in the US portion of the bird's range, with 2800 in northern Baja California. Others considered the numbers optimistically high. Shortly after listing, 160 pairs near Laguna Beach were killed or displaced by fire, and others have been bulldozed into oblivion as scrub was cleared by developers. "No one knows how many gnatcatchers are out there," biologist John Atwood told a columnist in 1996, "because the government has simply failed to do any adequate research."Now what is so damned important about this bird that, as the article puts it, "... confine(s) themselves so rigidly to their characteristic habitat, ..."?

The thing has "rigidly confined" itself into near extinction by its own reticence. If the "2,500 nesting pairs" eventually achieve their ignoble end and flit off to their just reward, which I'm sure is somewhere within 20 acres away; what will the next "endangered" animal/bird/fish/insect be that the environmental "movement" will use to thwart any progress by their fellow man?

Numerous animals have become extinct over the term of the history of the Earth and, with the possible exception of the dinosaurs, haven't been missed at all; not that any of us, with some nutty exceptions, would want those behemoths around stepping on houses and eating our children.

Thank God the two-toed horse left us so long ago. I can just imagine the outcry on how they need forty square miles of range for each mating herd or some such. Like one toe or one one-hundredth of an inch makes such a great difference. The snake eating the rat thinks nothing of the one one-hundredth of an inch at all.

"Reputable" environmentalists have opined that the Earth and its ecology will never be safe as long as even one human being remains on this planet.

At one point, the doomsday clock was at one minute to midnight but mankind was never placed on the endangered species list. Perhaps that is the only way we will ever get some respect.

[jimpeel]

The sites you posted are from:

Radical Urban Theory (http://www.rut.com/)

The Educational Division of CNN and Turner Broadcasting (http://www.turnerlearning.com/)

and

Animal Welfare Institute (http://www.awionline.org/) which bills theselves as "a non-profit charitable organization founded in 1951 to reduce the sum total of pain and fear inflicted on animals by humans."

Certainly no bias on the part of any of those sites, now, is there?

The site below, however, is an official webpage of the House of Representatives of the United Staes of America. -- but what do they know.

The testimony of Cindy Dimenigoni is interesting. She testified before the Committee on Resources, Washington, DC, May 20,1996.

She picks apart your sources -- which are from the USFWS document titled "Facts about the Endangered Species Act." -- very nicely. It wasn't too hard, of course, because the points you cited are part of a smear campaign, by yours and my government, against her, her family, and others who have spoken out against the ESA.

The transcript of her testimony is HERE (http://www.house.gov/resources/104cong/testimon/mar-20.96/domenigo.htm)

It seems that her fallow land that had been set aside as a "study area" was the primary source of the fuel that burned down the homes of 29 of her neighbors; but not michael Rowe's house. "Michael Rowe", you ask? He's the one who disked a firebreak around his house and saved it from the fires.

[fallingblock]

Radical Urban Theory

The Educational Division of CNN and Turner Broadcasting

Animal Welfare Institute
************************************************************

Those are holy scriptures in the mystic realm of 'ecoreligion':D

[Double Naught Spy]

All this and the idiots in California continue to move into the forests and then get upset because they invested lots of money and didn't know their rights or limitations of their rights via laws in place that govern the area pertaining to where they purchased property.

Who do you blame? Do you blame the idiot environmentalists or the idiot investors who made huge investments in properties they actually knew little about beyond it is on a pretty hillside covered in trees and has an X number of minutes commute to LA, SD, etc. It must suck to have that much money and yet be that stupid to not invest more wisely. And you know what, those folks complain a lot about being in a forest and ending up with no house after the forest fire moves through. Sooner or later, forests burn. With or without the environmental programs, forests burn. They have always burned. It is part of the natural cycle that they burn.

[jimpeel]

To get an idea of how ridiculous the bureaucracy has gotten, dig this.

A local, radio talk show guy from the San Diego area has a friend who lives in Ramona. The guy owns a small -- 3000 gallons -- tanker truck for his use in case of a fire. The fire department tanker is only 500 gallons so they would have to keep driving back to a water source every time they ran out.

This guy drives his truck, filled with his water, drawn from his well up the road to where the firefighters are and lets them hook up. The guys on the line are ecstatic. They have 3,000 gallons of water plus their 500 gallons.

Along comes the Battalion Chief and asks the guy if he is "certified". The guy asks what he means. The BC says he needs to be certified to be in the fire area and that he will have to take his vehicle and leave. (Note: "Certified" is unionspeak for "Hit the road, Scab.")

The guys on the line start complaining to the BC that they need this water but the BC orders the guy out of the area anyway.

So the guy left and went home, refilled his tanker, and parked it in his yard and waited for the fire to come.

What does it take to be "certfied"? A two week course.

Don't know any more on the story.

[jimpeel]

Lynx hoax debases habitat study, compels firings says Buck

Olympia, WA - 12/16/01 -Outrage, frustration and disappointment characterized the response from state Rep. Jim Buck when he learned of an alleged hoax by seven state and federal employees that could have manipulated natural-resource policy and imposed recreational restrictions in two national forests in Washington.

According to a published report in Monday's Washington Times, two employees of the state Department of Fish and Wildlife (DFW) planted false samples of Canadian lynx hair in an apparent effort to establish the presence of the endangered animal in the Gifford Pinchot and Wenatchee national forests. The newspaper report said the DFW employees were joined in falsifying the samples by three Forest Service employees and two U.S. Fish and Wildlife officials.

"If this is true, it s the most outrageous abuse of public trust that I have ever encountered," said Buck, principal author of the landmark Salmon Recovery Act in 1998 and the Forests and Fish timber agreement in 1999. "By planting false samples, these individuals professionally disgraced themselves, adulterated the science of a years-long (and questionable) study that cost the taxpayers hundreds of thousands of dollars, and raised serious questions about the integrity of the federal and state agencies involved. Whatever level of trust existed and it was tenuous at best has been severely eroded. What s the point of trying to work in good faith with the federal government on Endangered Species Act issues if all we get back is subterfuge and deception?"

The Times story said the officials planted three separate samples of lynx hair on rubbing posts used to identify existence of the animals in the two national forests. DNA analysis of the samples revealed that two matched that of a lynch living in a game preserve. A third sample was traced by DNA to an escaped pet lynx being held for its owner in a federal facility. The falsehood was reported to have been revealed by a Forest Service colleague.

Citing privacy concerns, identities of the employees involved have been withheld by federal officials. According to The Washington Times, the employees have been counseled for their actions and banned from participating in the three-year study of the lynx, listed as threatened under the ESA. Spokesman Steve Pozzanghera, deputy assistant director of the state Department of Fish and Wildlife, also did not immediately identify the DFW biologists involved, saying that both were "counseled and corrective action taken," including being removed from further work on the study.

That punishment doesn't t go far enough says Buck.

"I am calling for the immediate firings of the employees who were directly involved in this tactical deception," said Buck, who also serves as chairman of the House Republican Caucus. "Left undetected, the false samplings could have ushered in a wide variety of new habitat regulations ranging from restrictions on skiing and snowshoeing to livestock grazing and logging. We re also talking about private property that could have been affected, and people s livelihoods.

"I have spent the past six years trying to bring people to the table who distrust the ESA, which many regard as a heavy-handed, restrictive and unfair intrusion on private-property owners. Through it all, I ve tried to bring a balance between environmental stewardship and property rights. But if planting the lynx hair was a deliberate effort to fraudulently skew the study, and The Washington Times report is accurate, these seven individuals will have dealt the credibility of the Endangered Species Act a critical, if not mortal, blow," Buck concluded.

The Washington Times story

The lynx hoax debacle

By Richard W. Pombo and John E. Peterson - The Washington Times - January 7, 2002

Reprinted HERE (http://www.fs.fed.us/rm/main/pa/newsclips/02_01/010702_lynxhoax.html)

As Americans, we should have been astounded by the recent findings that federal officials intentionally planted hair from the threatened Canadian lynx in our national forests in order to impose sweeping land management regulations. We should have been shocked at the audacity of government employees to falsify evidence in order to advance their environmental agenda, and even more perplexed at the lackluster response from their respective agencies when the transgressions were brought to light.

But in truth, many of us who come from rural America have grown accustomed to environmental activism prevailing over the rule of law and over the best interests of families and communities. Time and time again, we have witnessed the federal government run roughshod over rural America because the Washington elite thought they knew better than the regular folks who tilled the soil, ran the cattle, or enjoyed their favorite campsite or trail. And, if a faulty study or falsified evidence has been necessary in order to enact radical environmental policies, government bureaucrats have had a green light for the past eight years because of the ends-justifies-the-means rationalization that became common practice during the Clinton administration.

This latest revelation, that officials from the U.S. Forest Service, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife planted false evidence of a Canadian Lynx on three occasions in our national forests, received a typical response from the agencies. Instead of terminating the employees, the individuals were given counseling and placed right back on the job to carry on with their environmental activism.

This lackadaisical approach to willful, unethical conduct is unacceptable, and we see no credible alternative other than to terminate the parties if there is convincing evidence that they knowingly and willingly planted unauthorized samples. But more importantly, this pattern of disregard for rural America and the acceptance of this type of environmental activism in our government agencies must come to an end.

It is this same disregard for rural America that caused federal officials to go after Peggy Bargon for presenting then-first lady Hillary Clinton with an Indian "dream catcher" which she made from various bird feathers. Because some of these feathers had fallen off of birds covered under federal wildlife protection laws, Ms. Bargon's gift cost her thousands of dollars in fines and legal fees. Yet, when federal officials exhibit blatant and willful disregard for the law, they receive a slap on the wrist and go back to work.

Then there is the case of Donald Fife, a professional scientist specializing in environmental mining and engineering geology, who learned from a former U.S. Forest Service official that plants listed under the Endangered Species Act (ESA) had been secretly placed on his property in an attempt to close about 30,000 acres of the highest mineral valued land in Southern California.

The list of government offenses against rural families and communities over the past eight years is endless. On numerous occasions, agencies bypassed Congress and the public process by having political appointees enact new "rules" to fit the agenda of Al Gore and the environmental movement. When public meetings were held to listen to the will of the people, Clinton officials were notorious for massaging the results to conform with their environmental agenda. Using shoddy science, government agencies have routinely added plants, animals and other species to the ESA list in order to seize land from local communities and landowners.

It is high time that our federal agencies realize that their actions affect the livelihood of millions of citizens of rural America. The farmers, ranchers, small business owners and outdoorsmen who live in our districts must be able to work with federal land management agencies to protect our natural environment while still providing jobs and preserving their way of life. This is not possible in the face of willful corruption.

This latest debacle may just provide the necessary impetus for Congress to take seriously this kind of fraud and environmental activism in our federal agencies. House Resources Committee Chairman James Hansen and Forests and Forest Health Subcommittee Chairman Scott McInnis have agreed to hold oversight hearings on this issue very soon. As we take on this colossal task, we hope the Bush administration will embrace this opportunity to work with Congress to re-establish the credibility of land-management agencies so that our national treasures and our rich culture we enjoy in rural America can be protected for generations to come.

----------------

Reps. Richard W. Pombo and John E. Peterson are the newly elected chairman and communications chairman, respectively, of the House Western Caucus.

Followup story from the Washington Times

Reprinted HERE (http://www.cdfe.org/lynx_hoax_no_secret.htm)

GAO: Lynx fur hoax was no secret

By Audrey Hudson
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
March 7, 2002

The General Accounting Office reported yesterday that government
scientists knew they should not have submitted falsely labeled samples into a national lynx survey and that some supervisors were aware but took no action.

"They all admitted they knew it wasn't in the protocol, they weren't
allowed to do this," said Ronald Malfi, acting managing director of the GAO
office of special investigations.

The investigation also found Forest Service and Fish and Wildlife
Service biologists discussed what they were doing, contrary to an initial
investigation in which employees said the unauthorized samples were submitted without knowledge of each other's actions, Mr. Malfi said.

Additionally, employees from both agencies worked together to collect fur samples from captive lynx, a species listed as threatened under the Endangered Species Act, Mr. Malfi said.

The employees were orally reprimanded for the actions, but later
received bonuses for their work. Dr. Steven A. Williams, Fish and Wildlife Service (FWS) director, said he is considering further disciplinary action.

The names of the four federal biologists involved were released
yesterday: Ray Scharpf, the whistleblower who informed his supervisor of the unauthorized submission before retiring from the Forest Service; Mitch
Wainright at the Forest Service; and Sarah LaMarr and Tim McCracken at the FWS.

The biologists maintain they submitted three samples of lynx fur they
falsely labeled as having been collected in two Washington state national
forests to test the lab's ability to analyze lynx DNA. (I guess they know now -- jp)

"They all knew they had no authorization to do this nor did they have a
technical order to actually test the laboratory," Mr. Malfi said.

Some scientists could not explain why they sent in the samples and were "very guarded" in their comments, Mr. Malfi said.

Additionally, a Washington state employee submitted a fur sample into
the survey taken from a bobcat pelt, Mr. Malfi said.

Neither the GAO investigation nor a separate review by the Interior
Department's inspector general has shed light on the motivation of the
employees.

"We did not uncover what the motivation was, we just looked at the facts and evidence to see what happened," Mr. Malfi said.

This angered some lawmakers, who said they remain convinced it was an attempt to rig the study to restrict recreational activities on public land.

"The employees thought the lynx were out there and they may have hoped to expand or extend the study to find more lynx or plant more samples," said Rep. Scott McInnis, Colorado Republican and chairman of the Resources Committee subcommittee on forests and forest health.

If the biologists were testing the lab, "it shows a fundamental mistrust that these scientists have for the very science they are using. This is very, very troubling," said Rep. James V. Hansen, Utah Republican and committee chairman.

When asked by a committee member why the supervisors did not take action to stop the false sample submission, Mr. McInnis said "they did take action; they gave them bonuses."

Mark Rey, Agriculture Department undersecretary for natural resources
and environment, said a third investigation by his department is looking
specifically at the employees' motivation - a question that remains
"sufficiently murky," he said.

Mr. Rey, who kept his remarks brief "so as not to unnecessarily delay
the expected horsewhipping," said "we don't think this is a harmless error."

However, Mr. Rey said he did not believe the employees were maliciously trying to affect the survey's outcome but added that "it is not their responsibility to make it up as they go along."

Mr. Rey said he did not believe the actions are a widespread problem in
the Forest Service, but is a "widely held perception about the agency and we are most interested in changing that."

The samples were submitted as part of a three-year survey to determine Canadian lynx habitat in 16 states and 57 national forests.

Mr. Malfi said had the false samples not been uncovered, "it would have been part of the national survey," leading to additional surveys and studies, (follow the money -- jp) but the "integrity of the study is intact."


Further:

http://www.jeep-l.net/access/news/fs/fs_lynx_fraud.htm

Congressmen Scott McInnis and Jim Hansen, respective chairs of the Subcommittee on Forests and Forest Health and Committee on Resources sent the following letter to Secretaries Veneman and Norton protesting the lynx hoax and promising an investigation and hearing. In an article reported in The Washington Times ( http://www.washtimes.com/national/20011217-7117603.htm ), federal and state wildlife biologists representing the U.S. Forest Service, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service officials and the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife admitted planting false evidence of a rare cat species in two national forests in Washington state.Letters reprinted in the article but too lenghty to reproduce here.