Most Accurate .22 ammo


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lobo9er
September 4, 2009, 05:14 PM
whats the best .22 LR ammo you guys have used?

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rcmodel
September 4, 2009, 05:19 PM
Eley Tenex, by far.

rc

Schleprok62
September 4, 2009, 05:29 PM
Most accurate I've "used"???

CCI std velocity
Rem Target SV

This is kind of a loaded question, as almost all .22's are finicky to some degree... what works best in my rifles, might not be what works best in yours... even if you have the same make and model rifles...

Cheers...

Niel4
September 4, 2009, 05:34 PM
Does it really matter?

I shoot a scoped Marlin 60 and feed it whatever is on sale and they all work fine. Mostly target @ 50-75 yds.

What would I be looking for if I bought the reco's here in terms of performance?

Howard Roark
September 4, 2009, 06:37 PM
My SB prone rifle likes Lapua Midas+. It gets Federal Gold Medal Match though!

TimRB
September 4, 2009, 06:45 PM
All rifles are different. Go into a gun store, buy one box of everything they have, and do some testing. Don't be surprised if your rifle prefers modest ammo over the high-priced spread.

Tim

lobo9er
September 4, 2009, 08:14 PM
all good points i "expanded" my range out to 100-125 yards and i think i'm pushing my winchester 69A to the limits. i have been shooting groups with in 3 to four inches. i think i can do a little better though i used to shoot at 50 yards and at 50 yards i was feeling pretty darn good about my self :) 100 plus yards i have been a bit harder, but very fun

Jubjub
September 4, 2009, 08:15 PM
If I had to buy just one kind of .22 ammo for the rest of my life, without hesitation it would be CCI Mini-Mags. I can fiddle around trying a bunch of different ammo for a given gun and find one that shoots better groups, but it probably won't be much better, and it will probably be way more expensive.

That said, I don't have to buy one kind of .22 ammo, and I have tried dozens.

For cheap plinking ammo I like CCI Blazer or Federal Champion 510. Rumor has it that it's exactly the same ammo except for the headstamp. Very consistent and reliable, and only a bit more costly than the bulk stuff.

For accuracy, if I want a bragging group out of one of my more accurate guns, Wolf MT does nicely, and my squirrel gun gets fed with subsonic hollow points, either Eley or SK. Any of those will shoot well under 1/2" at 50 yards in any of my bull barreled 10/22s. A bit expensive for everyday shooting though.

Maverick223
September 4, 2009, 08:29 PM
Definitely reloads :neener: [<That'd be a joke right there]...but the best I have used is CCI green tags. :)

browningguy
September 4, 2009, 08:34 PM
I use Eley Pistol Match and RWS Target Rifle for most of my .22 target shooting. In my GSG-5 I shoot mini mags.

From my 10-22 target rifle here is a comparison of Mini Mags and Eley Match. Both were shot on the same day within a few minutes of each other, a side wind running 5-8MPH at 50 yards. Note the much smaller vertical deviation in the groups with the Ely, I still ahve quite a lot of horizontal deviation with the Eley but I was not trying to hold into the wind when it came up, just used the same point of aim for each shot.

CCI - Really not a bad group for this ammo.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/jcm9371/1022cciminimagimproved.jpg

Eley Match - Not the most expensive ammo they have but good enough for semi-serious plinking.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/jcm9371/1022elymatchimproved.jpg

lobo9er
September 4, 2009, 09:08 PM
nice shooting browningguy!
i went out before sun down looking for Squirrel and on the way back in i took another stab at it 5 rounds in 3 1/2 inch circle with blazer rounds. at 50 yards with blazer and cheap remington stuff i was shooting inch groups and better no problem. in the end i'm thinking i may sight in at 75 yards so i'm a little high at 50 and a couple inches low at 125. estimating my yardage too with with paces, seems pretty close friends all seemed to think i'm around 125 defintaly over 100 for sure.

MIL-DOT
September 4, 2009, 09:23 PM
If accuracy is your goal,then you want sub-sonic ammo, like the Eley,Wolf,etc.. The higher velocity CCI stuff is about the highest quality,most consistent and most reliable around, but not as pin-point accurate as sub-sonic.

Odd Job
September 4, 2009, 09:34 PM
In my R55 Benchmark most accurate is Eley Tenex, followed by Lapua Master M.
Those are quite waxy and I found reliable feeding to be a problem unless cleaning every 50 rounds.
So now I use Eley Sport which is good enough for accurate shooting for recreational purposes.

This was at 25 yards, a 10 shot group with a rolled up carpet as a rest, using Eley Sport. The rifle is good for that at 50 yards also, with a proper rest. This is 11mm edge to edge, which is good enough for a casual shooter like me.

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g154/Odd_Job/R55.jpg

JohnBT
September 4, 2009, 09:52 PM
"All rifles are different."

What he said. Not all models are different, but all rifles. The best rimfire ammo is the brand and lot number your gun likes.

I'm down to my last box of the old low-numbered Federal Gold Medal.

John

Bill B.
September 4, 2009, 11:10 PM
Thought I might pass this along .................:D

ELEY claims all five Gold medals in 50m events in Munich

21 May 2009


ELEY struck gold again at the third stage of the ISSF World Cup Series held at the Olympic Shooting Range in Munich, Germany from 12-20 May 2009. The British .22 cartridges were used by shooters who won 10 medals at the well attended World Cup in Germany. ELEY's premium product Tenex dominated the 50m events, claiming all five gold medals and all medals in the Men's 50m Prone event:

Event Highlights

Men's 50m Prone
The Men's 50m Prone final saw 7/8 competitors using ELEY tenex to fight it out for the top position, Guy Starik of Israel and World Record holder in this event was triumpant with a total score of 703.3.The Israeli shooter had started the final round in the lead with a qualification score of 598 points and fired some great shots to lead him to victory (598-47x + Final105.3 Total 703.3).

The Prone event saw the return of double Olympic medalist Matt Emmons to the ISSF World Cup circuit after a break from international competition as he become a father in April. Emmons was in sixth place going into the Prone final with 597 and climbed up the scoreboard to finish second after shooting an excellent final of 105.0 to claim the silver medal ahead of team mate Michael McPhail who finishing right behind Emmons in third place with 701.0 points to grab the bronze.

The Final was closed by an exciting shoot-off between the two best Rifle Prone shooters of the world, who are both sponsored by ELEY. Coming from a weak qualification, Beijing’s Olympic Champion Artur AIVAZIAN of Ukraine finished the match tied to the 2008 World Cup Final winner and Beijing’s Olympic Bronze medallist Worren Potent with a total of 700.8 points. The two athletes had to pass through a shoot-off, won by Potent 10.1 to 9.0 points.

dispatch55126
September 4, 2009, 11:14 PM
My Savage likes Federal Bulk Packs and my 10/22 likes CCI SGB. Since you can't reload, buying every type of ammo out there and testing them is as close as you can get to tailoring your loading.

Smith357
September 4, 2009, 11:21 PM
+1 on the Eley Tenex, It shoots amazingly well in everything I have ever used it in, i just wish I could afford to shoot more of it. 16.50 a box is just a bit steep for me.

Eley's premium product Tenex has been used by Olympic champions throughout the World since 1964 when the new .22 entered World competition at the Tokyo Olympic Games and won all gold and silver medals in the .22 LR rifle and pistol events. This success story continues nearly fifty years later at the 2008 Beijing Olympic Games with the refined Tenex cartridges wining 12 medals, topping the tally to 102 medals.
http://www.edinkillie.co.uk/ecatalog/images/Eley/TENEX.jpg

tjrahl
September 4, 2009, 11:32 PM
velocitors in my 10/22
Tho my mod 60 refuses to enjoy anything but Remington /cry

rangerruck
September 4, 2009, 11:36 PM
eley is the best 22 ammo made; no one makes 22 ammo like eley.
they also make the components , that are assembled in diff countries.
For the companies called
Aguila(mexico)
golden eagle(america)
Centurion, I think (also mexico)
and 3 remmy products; black/green label, orange label, yellow label.

for a surprisingly good cheapy, look for American eagle, red box, made
by Federal.
http://www.zediker.com/books/rimfire/rf_for_web/rf_pages_84_85.pdf

notice here in this ad, that the average deviation for this round is only 5FPS!!!!
that is just amazing!

http://www.eley.co.uk/ammunition.aspx

and a great write up, outside article;
http://www.shootingtimes.com/ammunition/eley_101405/index2.html

Jubjub
September 4, 2009, 11:39 PM
Eley is great shooting ammo all right, but it smells bad.

Maverick223
September 4, 2009, 11:56 PM
Is there a difference between the grades of Remington Eley Match? I have a box of Yellow in the safe that I have yet to try. :)

22-rimfire
September 5, 2009, 12:03 AM
Eley is most likely the best target grade 22 ammo. The thing is, do you feel that you need the most accurate? It is a question of how much is enough for you and are you willing to pay the price for what is traditionally the best?

rangerruck
September 5, 2009, 12:21 AM
maverick, a little bit; lemme show you a 100 yd target;
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a284/pmullineaux/mod60006.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a284/pmullineaux/mod60005.jpg
http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=73992

normally you would think the yellowbox would be better, but not in that rifle
for me.

they are the same as these, and these.
http://www.eley.co.uk/ammunition/products/club.aspx
http://www.eley.co.uk/ammunition/products/match.aspx

Maverick223
September 5, 2009, 12:35 AM
Well I may have to try the orange as well...but no Tenex for my little 10/22...just not worth it IMO. :)

lobo9er
September 5, 2009, 05:05 AM
In my R55 Benchmark most accurate is Eley Tenex,
well heres the thing all these claims of eley ammo seem to be 25 yards and 50 yards i can do this with remington thunder and blazer, i'm shooting 125 yards. to be honest i have never heard of the stuff, but i'll give it a shot. i'm not meaning to discredit the ammo or the shooters but 25 yards doesn't really prove much i think it's gonna be trial and error and working on being steady. i suppose i was looking for a super secret .22 ammo.
but all in all i sincerely thank everyone for the response.

scythefwd
September 5, 2009, 05:41 AM
well, remington thunderbolts are what my anchutz shoots most accurately so far... when they actually fire :) My mossberg hates the remingtons though, so I guess I have to keep shopping for something a little more reliable.

Odd Job
September 5, 2009, 07:40 AM
i'm not meaning to discredit the ammo or the shooters but 25 yards doesn't really prove much

The ultimate in accuracy at 25 yards (or any distance) is to fire 10 rounds and find only one hole in the paper. I haven't seen that done. In my opinion, the ammo that gets me closest to that achievement, is the most 'accurate' in my rifle.

Probably the only way to settle this for once and for all would be to place the rifle in a vise and fire a box of each ammo at each of the three distances: 25, 50 and 100 yards and see which ammo has the smallest groups consistently.
I suspect the one that does well at 25 will also be good for 100.

JohnBT
September 5, 2009, 10:36 AM
There's more to it than simply which brand is best. The specific lot you buy and shoot can vary about as much as your gun.

Bob Collins is an Eley dealer. The link is to an article he wrote a few years ago on how to decipher the Eley lot numbers and comments on one machine vs. another, speed, crimp, air density, etc. Benchrest shooters buy different ammo lots to try in order to identify the lot or lots that work the best for them.

www.benchrest.com/csaccuracy/eleybythenumbers.html

For instance...

"The fps is printed under, example 1055 fps.� This fps on the label is an average of 50 shots from one of the six test guns at the Eley factory; these guns have 26 inch barrels with the chronograph three feet in front of the barrel.� There are 4 different machines that load Eley Ultimate and Match EPS.� I have found that these machines are very specific to which gunsmith chambers and fine-tunes your rifle.� Depending on barrel twist, length, and the gunsmith who put the gun together, you will find at least three Lots of ammo that will shoot under different conditions without turning the tuner.�

Each machine has subtle differences, so that different machine Lots of Ultimate can chamber and give the best accuracy.� One Lot of ammo will not shoot well in every gun.� Bill Calfee and James Messer guns seem to shoot best with the number 3 and 4 machine, Tim McWhorter�s (including all the Suhl�s he has set up) shoot the 3 machine, some 4.� Marshall Beam, Larry Shellhouse, and Lamon Logins use the 3 machine but will also shoot the 4 machines.� Bill Myers uses the 2 and 3 machines.� Most factory Anschutz use the 1 machine and Winchester 52�s seem to like the 3 or 4 machine.� All of this can change by the way the individual shooter holds the gun.�

One of Mr. Jim Cannington�s guns will shoot the 3 machine in free recoil but likes the 2 machine if it�s held.� Wayne Smith is the best at finding out what a gun likes to shoot and fine tuning, he was the one that found out about Mr. Jim�s gun preference.�

One curious thing almost all guns will shoot the 2 machine when the wind is blowing hard, better than when it not blowing.� "

22-rimfire
September 6, 2009, 01:21 PM
If you don't shoot competitively, I personally think there is little reason to spend the money for the "best". I'm pretty satisfied if I can shoot edge to edge groups in the 0.4" range at 50 yds and that doesn't take spending $15/box for ammo. I have tried the really high grade stuff. I just am not there yet in terms of need.

Every 22 rifle will shoot differently with different ammo. There will be some variance between lots as well with the same ammo. You just have to test shoot the stuff and see what the rifle prefers. Then you need to decide if you are willing to pay double or triple (or more) the price for 0.1" to 0.2" improvement at 50 yds in better precision from the ammo you choose. It is enough for me to know that a rifle is capable of that kind of accuracy when I shoot it.

Yeah, I know it's fun to have a rifle that will shoot 0.2" groups at 50 yds. That's only on a good day too.

A-FIXER
September 8, 2009, 12:25 AM
also try centrion .22 ammo shot a brick and enjoyed great accuracy and not failures to fire or FTE.....

Maverick223
September 8, 2009, 12:34 AM
also try centrionSaw it in the local shop...but it looked too much like the crazy shotgun rounds (buck & ball, chain, flechette, dragons-breath, et al) so I didn't pick it up...will have to try it next time I go in. :)

giggitygiggity
September 8, 2009, 12:38 AM
Federal Gold

15guns
September 8, 2009, 12:51 AM
I can do bullseyes at a 99 percent rate for a half a hour straight with a scoped 22 rifle if it's set up right. And that's using remington thunderbolts. That's cheap ammo. I have a ruger 10/22 now that I customized some. But it's not set up good enough to do bulleyes all day at 25 yards. I do have a scope on it though. I was using a pistol target.

JohnBT
September 8, 2009, 09:06 AM
You need a smaller bull at 50 yards to make it a little more interesting.

Try the IR 50/50 benchrest target. That little dot in the center is teeny.

http://ir5050.com/images/target50.gif

Bill B.
September 8, 2009, 09:49 AM
You need a smaller bull at 50 yards to make it a little more interesting.

Try the IR 50/50 benchrest target. That little dot in the center is teeny.

For those that have not tried this target it is one experience that will make you humble. You do not get even a decent score on this target with cheap ammo and an average .22 rifle. It's an expensive game both in guns & scope & ammo but one that can be tried if you so desire with any .22.

I can do bullseyes at a 99 percent rate for a half a hour straight with a scoped 22 rifle if it's set up right. And that's using remington thunderbolts. That's cheap ammo.

Maybe we need a thread on shooting the IR 50/50 with Remington Thunderbolts. It might be interesting to see the results ...................................

rangerruck
September 8, 2009, 11:03 AM
Centurion, I believe, is also in Eley's stable, or at least made to their specs, or on their machines, in Mexico.

For the Lobo9er dude; my pic above shows 2 -100 yd groups....

NCsmitty
September 8, 2009, 11:58 AM
I doubt that I would pay more than $3.00 a box for rimfire 22LR to shoot. There are many good rimfire ammo brands to chose from. The only competition that I shoot against, is myself. I have shot at least 30+ brands and types of 22lr to find out what my rifles like best from the selection.
Sometimes the cheapest ammo will shoot as well as ammo costing 10 times more, it all depends on the rifle itself.

I have three 22RF rifles that I have done the testing on to see what they like. My Rem 541-T HB liked PMC Moderator ammo, my Marlin 101 single shot liked Winchester T-22 and my Marlin 60 SS seems to like hi-speed ammo like CCI mini-mag but isn't as accurate as the 541 or the singleshot.
I've recently bought some versions of Aguila ammo to check because they do offer Eley priming and deserve to be tested. I just haven't got around to doing that yet.


NCsmitty

VanBurne01
September 8, 2009, 12:14 PM
I own a old Marlin .22 with scope, I've had VERY good luck with CCI.
I can't miss that center ring no matter how bad a day I'm having.

trigga
September 8, 2009, 01:32 PM
cci mini mag or stingers, i've used both for small game and the stinger can surely do some damage.

MythBuster
September 8, 2009, 06:58 PM
"well, remington thunderbolts are what my anchutz shoots most accurately so far..."

You must not shoot much. Or what you consider accurate is different than the rest of the world.

MythBuster
September 8, 2009, 07:01 PM
"Maybe we need a thread on shooting the IR 50/50 with Remington Thunderbolts. It might be interesting to see the results"

I would like to see that also.

I don't care what anyone says you can not shoot good groups and scores at 50 yards with ANY .22 rimfire rifle with ammo that has such a HUGE variation in power charges.

MythBuster
September 8, 2009, 07:06 PM
"I suspect the one that does well at 25 will also be good for 100."

Sorry wrong there.

Ammo with huge variations in powder charges can still shoot well at 25 yards but be all over the paper at 100.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
September 8, 2009, 07:11 PM
"I suspect the one that does well at 25 will also be good for 100."

Sorry wrong there.

Ammo with huge variations in powder charges can still shoot well at 25 yards but be all over the paper at 100.

No, sir, you are incorrect, I'm afraid, and the person you quote is exactly right. Whatever error there is 25, is simply magnified four times at 100 (plus a little MORE error due to wind and possibly shooter error). Whatever shoots best at 25 WILL ALWAYS shoot best at 100, and whatever shoots worst at 25 will always shoot worst at 100. There's no way to make a bullet change directions, and suddenly all converge back toward the center after passing the 25 yard mark.

Basic physics. Inconsistent charge makes bullet START left/right/up/down, it will continue to just go in that same left/right/up/down vector continually until it hits the target or the ground - it doesn't change up its vector from the shot after 25 yards and come back to the bullseye.

Ammo with huge variations in powder charges can still shoot well at 25 yards

No, that ammo won't shoot "WELL" at 25 yards - inconsistent ammo such as you describe does NOT do that; consistent ammo DOES do that. The only way your statement is true is if you define "well" in a nonsensical non-accepted manner, such as "in my book, 2 inch groups = 'well' ", when that's really NOT well at all, in the grand scheme of things at that distance. "Well" is basically one hole at 25 yards.


And, even if your statement was true, based on a very lax definition of "well", and you're defining "well" as 2" groups at 25, then yes, you'll indeed be "all over the paper" at 100 - but guess what - the ammo that does NOT "shoot well" under your definition of well will still be yet even far WORSE than just merely "all over the paper" at 100, and be bested by that ammo that shoots "all over the paper".

You CAN get an accurate judge of a rifle/shooter/ammo's accuracy at 25 yards - the only time you need to go past that is if everyone has the exact same group size, which just ain't gonna happen, even at serious competition - group sizes and absolute scores WILL vary, and some will win and some will lose. That might happen at 5 or 10 yards, where everyone ties for 1st place - but it won't at 25.

Now having said that, you do need calipers to determine this at 25 if you're talking serious competition, whereas you can probably figure out with your eyeballs rather than calipers who has the best group at 50 yards.


Now Mythbuster, for my final quote from you:

I don't care what anyone says you can not shoot good groups and scores at 50 yards with ANY .22 rimfire rifle with ammo that has such a HUGE variation in power charges.

You hit the nail on the head there; you are 100% right about that! :)

By the way, everyone is right about it depends on you gun and what it likes. And I have little doubt that some flavor of Eley is the best on average across the board in many rifles - best on an absolute scale. But in terms of *value*, best for the money across the board, I have to give the prize to "Wolf Match Target" - great stuff, Maynard, in several of my rifles - cannot believe no one has mentioned it yet.

And for whoever said that they think they'd have to be rich to shoot Eley match stuff, are you kidding me? It's STILL cheaper than the cheapest centerfire, even if reloading! I guess whoever says that never shoots any centerfires for accuracy, let alone shoots centerfires for fun/plinking.

CZguy
September 8, 2009, 08:01 PM
No, sir, you are incorrect, I'm afraid, and the person you quote is exactly right. Whatever error there is 25, is simply magnified four times at 100 (plus a little MORE error due to wind and possibly shooter error). Whatever shoots best at 25 WILL ALWAYS shoot best at 100, and whatever shoots worst at 25 will always shoot worst at 100. There's no way to make a bullet change directions, and suddenly all converge back toward the center after passing the 25 yard mark.

Yep, physics trumps personal opinions every day of the week.

Hesenwine
September 8, 2009, 08:17 PM
Most accurate .22????

Anything but boxes with the word "Winchester" on them and purchased at Wal-Mart.

:D

Ditch-Tiger
September 8, 2009, 09:08 PM
Wolf Match Target

scythefwd
September 8, 2009, 09:38 PM
mythbuster,
I never said it was accurate, I said it shot most accurately so far (still poorly)which means I haven't tried much else yet and with me behind the trigger. My grandfather used some other stuff (I don't know what it was, I think it started with an A, but I'm not sure) when he was shooting match. He was the target shooter of us all. I don't know which he was more accurate with, his Win 52D or his anchutz. He would keep 1-2 inches at 100y on an outside range from the prone with peep sights. I would be lucky to do that with the same gun from a rest. He was competitive, but not dominant in his competitions.

chevyforlife21
September 8, 2009, 09:52 PM
i dont waste my money on 22lr that is 10 dollars for 50. i buy 550 pack federal and i can shoot 1/2 inch groups still for 15 bucks

22-rimfire
September 8, 2009, 10:12 PM
Generally you are most likely looking at RWS, Lapua or Eley as the "best" If you look at pricing, the stuff that currently sells for $15-$17/50 rounds has a high likelihood of shooting the best in a good rifle.

And for whoever said that they think they'd have to be rich to shoot Eley match stuff, are you kidding me? It's STILL cheaper than the cheapest centerfire, even if reloading! I guess whoever says that never shoots any centerfires for accuracy, let alone shoots centerfires for fun/plinking.

This is true. But I find it hard to afford shooting $50-$100 worth of ammunition in an outing regardless if it is rimfire or centerfire. You might guess that I don't shoot much centerfire ammo and you're right. I do shoot it and I have quite a bit cached away, but I'm frugal about using up my reserves. Right now I'm practicing for deer season however with a handgun. That takes some ammo.

Maverick223
September 9, 2009, 03:05 AM
No sir you are incorrect. There most certainly is a way to make ammo change directions in flight.The Doc. was referring to the MOA/mil angular difference...which will remain a constant at any distance, as long as other factors are not influencing the trajectory (such as an obstacle, or the trans-sonic region as the round goes sub-sonic). :)

Maverick223
September 9, 2009, 01:08 PM
But that isn't true either Maverick. Wind will affect a slower moving bullet more.It is...variable cross-wind is an outside force. Doc's point was that a 1/2MOA rifle at 10yds is a 1/2MOA rifle at 1760yds...as long as there is no outside forces. Changing winds included, but if the wind remains constant all of the bullets should group just as they did at the closer range. Gravity has no effect on the grouping unless it changes, in which case I am less concerned about my grouping. The only unknowns that could affect the grouping of a particular arm is the accuracy of the rifle, sighting system, and load components, as well as outside forces...of which the only ones that come to mind is trans-sonic region, obstacles, and variable winds. All supersonic projectiles (that I know of) exit the barrel at supersonic speeds, with the exception of the gyro-jet. Accuracy may (and certainly will) be different, but the precision (in other words the grouping) will be the same as the closer range when measured in angular departure (e.g. mils or MOA).
:)

dagger dog
September 9, 2009, 01:16 PM
lobo,

Eley, in my Savage bull barrel bolt gun,CCI Green Tag in my 6" Woodsman and MKII 6 7/8 Ruger, but a real sleeper is Agulia.The one that shoots best in my Ruger 10 22 match chambered barrel is the Super Xtra, and guess what it's Eley primed ?

The bench rest crowd segerates their .22 rimfire by measuring the rim of the brass into batches .

I would bet that the brass thickness in the area where the primer lies , is an important area that controls ignition of the powder charge, by keeping this area in tighter tolerance Eley makes their ammo more repatable, and tighter grouping.

JohnBT
September 9, 2009, 02:20 PM
"Doc's point was that a 1/2MOA rifle at 10yds is a 1/2MOA rifle at 1760yds"

Not at all true in my experience.

You can do a google search on something like "bullets going to sleep" for starters. Here's a thread where shooters get counterintuitive groups at different ranges.

www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2902684

The thing is, bullets tend to fly in a spiral and not in a straight line and the oscillations are larger at certain points in the flight path than others.

John

JohnBT
September 9, 2009, 02:22 PM
Oh, and from one of the links in the linked thread.

"Read Dr. F.W. Mann's Book, `The Bullet's Flight from Powder to Target.' It
has excellent examples of this. Thin paper sheets placed every few feet
between muzzle and 100 yards show the exact spiral path of the bullet.
It even shows how the angle of the bullet relative to its down-range path
is determined. Great reading. Even though it was first printed in 1907.
Physics hasn't changed much since then."

MythBuster
September 9, 2009, 06:53 PM
Anyone with any experience with .22 ammo like Remington Thunderbolt knows it has a HUGE variation in powder charges. You don't need a chronograph to know this. All you have to do is listen to it.

Anyone who has shot it at 100 yards knows you will get vertical stringing because of the variation in powder charges.

This does not show up at 25 yards.
Case closed.

JImbothefiveth
September 9, 2009, 07:00 PM
Hey, I heard that eley ruined barrels, however, this was in an article from the 80s. Is it still true?

For the thread's question, the most accurate I've shot is either CCI standard veolicty or federal target. I use them for competition. For plinking federal bulk's okay, remington thunderbolts are okay in one of my guns, and they jammed a lot in the others. Maybe thunderbolt quality has improved?

CZguy
September 9, 2009, 07:07 PM
Anyone who has shot it at 100 yards knows you will get vertical stringing because of the variation in powder charges.

I usually get vertical stringing from a hot barrel.

Maverick223
September 9, 2009, 07:09 PM
Hey, I heard that eley ruined barrels, however, this was in an article from the 80s. Is it still true?I don't doubt it...you shoot Eley...then, knowing that you have the best ammo available, realize that your bbl must be bad and decide to replace it...then the scope, reciever, et cetera...until a suitable rifleman is found to correct the problem. :D I seriously doubt that Eley hurts a bbl, and furthermore doubt that it ever did (any more than any other manufacturer), but have no evidence to support this assumption. :)

JImbothefiveth
September 9, 2009, 07:15 PM
The article I read was from the NRA written by a bunch of accomplished smallbore shooters, so that's probably reliable. Did eley change the composition at all in the last 20 years?

Uncle Mike
September 9, 2009, 07:37 PM
....best 22lr ammo, in the world....Remington Thunderbolt! Everybody knows this...

Maverick223
September 9, 2009, 08:22 PM
The article I read was from the NRA written by a bunch of accomplished smallbore shooters, so that's probably reliable. Did eley change the composition at all in the last 20 years?Perhaps there is more to it than I give credit...as to the formula I have no idea, what exactly was said? Was the lead too hard? :)

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
September 9, 2009, 08:38 PM
Well, there is a small caveat to what I said (which is essentially right), and that is that yes, some bullets do spiral in a circle, that much is true, but I am operating with the understanding that only high-speed bullets (centerfires) have enough "juice" on them to cause them to spiral - not rimfires. I could be wrong on that (anyone know if .22s spiral? I didn't think so).

However, even if they're spiraling, they're still going have added to that spiral, the "error vector" that's pushing them left right up or down due to inconsistent ammo (or rifle or shooter), which is still simply magnified at distance (plus made possibly worse by wind or going subsonic or some external force - rain maybe). You're just not ever gonna find a world-champion shooter that would have lost had they just went to 50 instead of 25 yards, or vice versa (that the 5th or 10th place guy would have won if the distance would just have been further) - I'm not buying that.

....best 22lr ammo, in the world....Remington Thunderbolt! Everybody knows this...

Never miss an opportunity to dog Remington, do ya, UM? :p

There most certainly is a way to make ammo change directions in flight. It's called gravity.

Walter, you are missing the point. Gravity simply ADDs a vector - it cannot overcome or change or undo the "error vector". Everything I said is obviously (or so I thought it obvious) being said ceteris paribus, all other things being equal. Gravity is going to act equally on all bullets fired at the same target so it's irrelevant - the error vectors are what ARE relevant. Sure wind can affect it, but that's assumed to be ceteris paribus as well - it too (along with all other miscellaneous forces) are irrelevant to the "error vector" created by imperfect ammo, rifle, and/or shooter. They must be accounted for separately. There's no way that wind can be counted on to overcome or undo bad ammo or bad rifle or bad shooter. It might occasionally bring back a bullet the opposite direction of the "error vector" just enough to hit the bullseye out of pure luck, but it certainly won't happen consistently.

You are exactly right, it's about vector physics - which supports exactly what I said - thank you.

lobo9er
September 9, 2009, 10:26 PM
To ranger guy, I saw that after I posted. Your post was the only one that had a claim that far out. Nice groups! I am going to give eley a try. Price decide however if it will be something I will shoot on a regular basis

To Dr. Tad win, I appreciate your ethusiasm, but I think you over thought the question a touch.

Uncle Mike
September 10, 2009, 02:25 PM
Never miss an opportunity to dog Remington, do ya, UM?

...at least I'm consistent...hehehe

I meant no degradation in that statement... I am not brand loyal, so if a particular...whatever... is poopy or not, in my opinion of course, I simply state...my opinion.

Would it have smelt better had I said...Winchester Polecat ammo stinks... oops, I meant to say Wildcat ammo.:neener:

For the record...Remington is a great company.....I own maaaany Remington this or that... did I say Remington is a great company...I meant to say....:evil:

Anyway back to the previously scheduled post....:D

browningguy
September 10, 2009, 02:50 PM
I think that everyone should remember that the original poster asked what the "most accurate" .22 ammo was. He didn't ask what the cheapest ammo that gave marginally acceptable groups was. I shoot minimags in one of my hunting .22's and it's great for that purpose. But it is not, and never will be, the most accurate. If you just want to go blast away with no rhyme or reason then shoot Federal bulk, or Remington Thunderbolts, whatever floats your boat. But please, don't try to convince people it's the same as shooting good quality match ammo.

The correct answer is almost always Eley, although RWS Target shoots slightly better in one of my rifles, and some of the other match loads are nearly as good.

JohnBT
September 10, 2009, 03:10 PM
Here's a good 4-page article on Eley. They invented a dry powder to load into cases that only became primer when they wet it. It allowed variance to be held to a fraction of what had previously been possible.

They go so far as to track the weather each day they do a powder run and adjust the load. There's a reason they win almost everything and their ammo costs a fortune. JT

www.shootingtimes.com/ammunition/eley_101405/index2.html

"I'm not allowed to tell you how they did everything they did, but even in summary it's one of the most impressive achievements I've seen in my 30 years in this business. Eley engineers identified 50 primary variables--basics like bullet mass, case internal volume, and propellant charge mass.



Then they determined 200 secondary variables--things like the ambient humidity in the assembly facility, the metallurgy of the cases, human competence. Finally, they identified 700 tertiary variables--subtle things the TenEx project manager told me turned out to be the ultimate keys to getting things really up to "the TenEx level." For example: weather conditions in the country where the propellant powder is manufactured on the day that particular lot of powder was mixed. (Yes, Eley actually adjusts the TenEx loading profile for each powder lot based on this and other equally subtle considerations. The same is true of the other end of the process; manufacturing "lots" of TenEx consist of one day's run from a single loading machine because the weather is different each day.)



With nearly 1000 variables charted, the engineers addressed bullet and case design. Bullet design was analyzed with sophisticated computer modelling for in-flight characteristics. They discovered that a flatnose projectile was distinctly better for subsonic velocities out to 50 meters."

Koos Custodiet
September 10, 2009, 03:18 PM
What TimRB said. My CZ rifle shoots 1" 5 shots at 100m... with S&B. With anything else, be it Remington subsonic or CCI Green Tags or Eley or Sobol, it's worse.

Actually, Sobol (Russian stuff) shoots 7 out of 10 into a damn nice group, with three flyers. Consistently. OK, sometimes 4 flyers :-)

Edit : and my Anschutz Exemplar does bloody well on the local stuff. Each gun is different.

JohnBT
September 10, 2009, 03:20 PM
"yes, some bullets do spiral in a circle, that much is true, but I am operating with the understanding that only high-speed bullets (centerfires) have enough "juice" on them to cause them to spiral - not rimfires. I could be wrong on that (anyone know if .22s spiral? I didn't think so). "

Yes, all bullets do it to some degree. A bullet would have to be perfectly balanced not to precess. Precession is what you see when you spin a top. It might sit up straight for a second, but it quickly begins circling the axis. The Earth does it too, although a lot slower. Even if you started with a perfect bullet, the trip through the bore would change the shape and the balance as the lands and grooves reshaped the bullet. You end up with the nose of the bullet circling the axis and you get a spiral.

Here's a page with precession mentioned at the bottom of the first column. I'll see what else I can find later.

http://books.google.com/books?id=NdbZBDzy3FgC&pg=PA98&lpg=PA98&dq=rimfire+bullets+precession&source=bl&ots=dkXNgV5J5q&sig=nv8Iwd92pQ94PR1IWV_mGkACN1Q&hl=en&ei=W0GpStbmNJ-Mtgeg3LC1CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4#v=onepage&q=rimfire%20bullets%20precession&f=false

JohnBT
September 10, 2009, 03:31 PM
Even air gunners talk about spiraling.

www.pyramydair.com/blog/2009/07/do-pellets-spiral.html

One post:

"To Matt:

I could agree that bore does not impart precession only if it is a perfect bore. If at any point, it alters the surface or shape of the projectile, (non-uniformly), then it will contribute to vector forces altering the trajectory.
I do agree that precession can be consistent. The guys "down the hall" from me can calculate precession and estimate POI fairly well.
If the irregularity causing the spiraling is consistent, then the spiraling will be consistent, and a rifle could deliver 2-inch groups, even with an 8-inch spiral.
I swear my Infinity does this - the spiral I see appears much larger than the groups I can get, (a non-scientific observation, of course). It does mean, however, that sighting in at various distances means much more than compensating for drop - you also have to adjust for where in the spiral you are for each distance.

Shooting in a cross-wind is a whole different animal. In addition to the "side force" of the wind moving the pellet, even a perfectly stable projectile, if spinning, will succumb to magnus effect in a cross-wind. This can cause the bullet to rise, (ie, drop slower), sink, or veer abritrarily off course. Wind is not consistent, golfers hate it.

If someone could remind me which pellet was recomended for me to try instead of the EunJins, it would be much appreciated...

Best regards,
Jane Hansen"

Uncle Mike
September 10, 2009, 03:35 PM
400 Highly paid Mercedes driving engineers loading .22lr ammo vs. 6 drunk monkeys sweeping powder off of the floor and into cases....thaaaaat's is why Eley makes the best 22 ammo in most peoples opinion...lol:D

It would seem that Eley puts the utmost effort into their product!

I like the Lapua Midas also...

My daughter and I used Eley Match EPS to shoot division silhouette in 99/2000 out of CZ 452's.... she placed!:D

Justin
September 10, 2009, 03:56 PM
If you just want to go blast away with no rhyme or reason then shoot Federal bulk, or Remington Thunderbolts, whatever floats your boat. But please, don't try to convince people it's the same as shooting good quality match ammo.

Agreed. I've found that the Federal Bulk Packs are great for plinking, and even accurate/reliable enough for shooting steel challenge. But for games where precision wins it, Eley is miles ahead. Back when I shot Bullseye Pistol, I had a hoard of Eley that I'd only break out and shoot once before a big match, and then at the match itself. The difference in accuracy between CCI standard velocity and Eley was quite noticeable.

UnTainted
September 10, 2009, 06:56 PM
I wouldn't consider it the most accurate in my other .22s, but in my browning buckmark, the velocitors 40 grain thingies love to punch tight groups and nail rodents hard. :cool:

matai
September 10, 2009, 06:59 PM
I like Wolf Match

JohnBT
September 10, 2009, 11:46 PM
Me too, but I like the older Wolf Match Target, back before they changed the type of powder they use in it and back when it was only $15 a brick, and then $18 a brick. One of these days I am going to shoot it all up and then I will be sad and much, much poorer.

The old Wolf Match Extra is good too. I only bought a couple of cases of that.

John

Maverick223
September 11, 2009, 12:03 AM
Has anyone tried the new FMJ .22lr rounds, I saw a link for some a while back but could never find a distributer/retailer? :)

MythBuster
September 11, 2009, 05:35 PM
"Gravity is going to act equally on all bullets fired at the same target so it's irrelevant "

The subject is the HUGE variation in powder charges in Remington rimfire ammo.

This creates a HUGE variation in velocity.

A round leaving the muzzle at 950fps will not shoot the same place on a 100 yard target as one leaving the muzzle at 1200 fps.

The difference at only 25 yards will not be so obvious.

Maverick223
September 11, 2009, 05:50 PM
LOL...So the myth of accurate Rem. Thunderbolts has been busted. :D

Uncle Mike
September 11, 2009, 08:42 PM
Whoaaaa there Mav...I once hit a barn with Thunderbolt ammo!

Hell...I was 25y away also...so that proves Thunderbutt ammo is the hot steaming deal!

Maverick223
September 11, 2009, 10:03 PM
Maybe your right UM, I was a little harsh, after all IME they did fire...well every once in a while. :D

Uncle Mike
September 12, 2009, 03:09 AM
hehehehe........:p

Afy
September 12, 2009, 09:14 AM
http://www.edinkillie.co.uk/ecatalog/images/Lapua/x-act.jpg

Is supposedly the top of the pyramid right now.

Mileage may vary
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh178/afy08/12-05-07_2119.jpg

CZguy
September 12, 2009, 10:01 AM
Afy,

What coin is that?

Marlin 45 carbine
September 12, 2009, 10:22 AM
my AMT bull bbl likes Lapua and Eley but gets SuperX and MiniMags usually. the Federal bulk does OK and the Aguila good, the Federal 'Auto-Match' was a disapointment, no better than SuperX in my rifle and Ruger Mk.

Afy
September 12, 2009, 11:08 AM
CZ: It is 50 euro cent coin.

BTW the Lapua group is with Midas M, not X-Act which currently retails for about 30 Euros per box of 50. Eley Tenex by comparison is less than half that price.

Maverick223
September 12, 2009, 03:33 PM
Afy, that's cheating when you use a 5cm. coin. :neener: Where in Europe are you if I might be so nosy? :)

Afy
September 12, 2009, 04:32 PM
The coin is actuall about .5 inches. Am based out of France... but am not french. :)

Indiana Jon
September 12, 2009, 07:35 PM
Some of the Eley grades such as Target Rifle run around 1085 fps and 105 ft lb at the muzzle. Anyone use this type of ammo for hunting small game such as squirrel? The more accurate the better for hunting, as long as it has enough punch.

Maverick223
September 12, 2009, 07:38 PM
Am based out of France... but am not french.LOL, will try to keep it high road...but I would have added that too. ;)

rangerruck
September 13, 2009, 08:52 AM
for most dudes not familiar with eley mfgr process, read this part again;

"I'm not allowed to tell you how they did everything they did, but even in summary it's one of the most impressive achievements I've seen in my 30 years in this business. Eley engineers identified 50 primary variables--basics like bullet mass, case internal volume, and propellant charge mass.



Then they determined 200 secondary variables--things like the ambient humidity in the assembly facility, the metallurgy of the cases, human competence. Finally, they identified 700 tertiary variables--subtle things the TenEx project manager told me turned out to be the ultimate keys to getting things really up to "the TenEx level." For example: weather conditions in the country where the propellant powder is manufactured on the day that particular lot of powder was mixed. (Yes, Eley actually adjusts the TenEx loading profile for each powder lot based on this and other equally subtle considerations. The same is true of the other end of the process; manufacturing "lots" of TenEx consist of one day's run from a single loading machine because the weather is different each day.)

In other words, their engineers see approximately 950 variables, to making
good 22 ammo. Does anyone here think that remmy or winny or even cci goes to this much trouble? and CCi/ parent company makes proly most, if not all civilian/military rocket/missile/ booster fuels, to include the Shuttle.

To Jimbo, I never thought i would say this; but since that article was written so long ago, and we know back then that some writers not only had prejudices along various lines, but were easily paid a bit of extra money, to say this and that about various other brands or types of rifles and ammo, it was a regular occurence. Just like Rock n roll and all the payola.
30 years ago, a lot of old school writers, especially if they were allready old themselves, did not care for " foreign" stuff being compared favorably to.
Eley, Lapua, Rws/ Diana, and Dynamit Nobel, all make the finest 22 ammo out there, no doubt, and Eley has won more matches and Olypic stuff over the past 100 years, than proly all other ammo makers combined.
I have also used their stuff in the remmy boxes, I have used most of the
Aguila line, and also Golden Eagle, which is american made, when I can find it.
I can honestly say, that all their stuff, never shoots bad, nor even average, but is usually a top 5 performer or the best period, in all my rifles or pistols.
And I shoot a lot of diff 22 rifles and pistols, and am never dissed by an Eley product.
As an added bonus? I enjoy that wonderful sickly sweet Eley smell,
there is no other ammo that smells like it. " smells like.... victory..."
and you know what? It mostly ends up victorious.

Maverick223
September 13, 2009, 04:51 PM
As an added bonus? I enjoy that wonderful sickly sweet Eley smell, there is no other ammo that smells like it. " smells like.... victory..."LOL, that's napalm son..nothin' in the world smells like that. I love the smell of napalm in the morning. :D

Bart B.
September 14, 2009, 12:12 AM
While Eley's been a favorite of the best competitive shooters for years, there was one other brand that could equal it about half the time. It was used by most countries in the Soviet Bloc to win gold medals and set records along the way just as often as Eley.

A small town outside of Moscow, Klimosvk, had an ammo plant that made .22 rimfire match ammo as well as several lesser grades. Olimp was their best ammo and Temp was a very close second; in some rifles Temp would shoot more accurate than Olimp.

When the Iron Curtain came down, a friend of mine went to Russia to wheel and deal with the plant's managers to buy some for import into the USA. Until this time, it was not allowed to be imported into the USA as well as virtually all other non Bloc countries. But that plant switched over to nothing but AK47 ammo some years ago after the Russian Mafia took it over and that was the end of the "other" really accurate .22 rimfire match ammo.

If you check the NRA's web site for smallbore records, you'll note that most of them were set before the late 1980's. The reason for this is Eley had an explosion at their priming facility that, I think, killed a few people. They changed their priming mixture and the resultant priming compound caused increased barrel wear as well as less accuracy. The best Eley would shoot well under 1/2 inch at 100 yards in barrels best suited for it before this incident. Nowadays, people throw parties if they get better than 3/4ths of an inch at 100 yards. I'm talking about accuracy one can count on all the time, not that rare one that's got all bullets exactly in the same hole, or very close to it. But kudos to Eley's best engineers, they've been on the right track to get back to where they were many years ago; they'll be there soon.

I gotta comment on the statements about accuracy....to the tune of: "If it shoots 1/2 MOA at range X, it'll shoot 1/2 MOA at (some much greater range). Nothing could be further from the truth. The biggest reasons are all bullet fired don't have the same ballistic coefficient and muzzle velocity. Small differences in both cause elevation shot stringing that's more apparent at the longer ranges. For example, a 50 fps spread in muzzle velocity for a Sierra 190 HPMK leaving a .308 Win. at 2600 fps will have vertical shot stringing of 1/10th inch at 100 yards (1/10th MOA); at 1000 yards, it's 20 inches (2 MOA). That's a 20X difference at ten times the range.

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