Finally, The Perfect Pocket Gun.


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Phydeaux642
September 4, 2009, 05:48 PM
Okay, I've had it all along, but I've just now decided to stop looking for something else.

Before I picked up my CCW permit a few years back I picked up a S&W 642 in anticipation of using this as my carry gun. Depending on what I am doing I either pocket carry it in a Mika pocket holster or put it in a Smartcarry holster. For a little while I carried a Kel-tec P32 in my pocket but decided I felt more comfortable with the 642 and went back to it.

A few months ago I decided that maybe I should look for something with a bit more capacity. I started reading a lot of articles about small autos, reading different forums and the experiences other people have had with small autos and dropping by gun shops to look at and handle some small autos.

I almost had myself talked into a G26 but it's just a little big for pocket carry (at least in my pockets and my pockets are not small). I have a P11, but I don't trust it as it has had a lot of feeding issues and I have tried it in a Nemisis pocket holster and it's too large for my pocket. I refuse to pay $700+ for a PM9 (why can't they build a gun that is close to the same cost as a G26 or XD9?) and a Rohrbaugh is way out of my range at this time.

As I thought more about it, I realized that I already had the perfect pocket gun with the 642. I've got a 442, also, but I still carry the 642. So, I guess my search for a small auto is over as nothing seems to compete with the little wheelgun that I already have. I mention the 642 becuase that is what I have, but any of the little snubbies would fit the bill, so, don't think I'm saying that the 642 is the end-all to pocket revolvers.

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Landpimp
September 4, 2009, 09:16 PM
I agree 100%

ya just cant beat a j frame snub and I have my share of SA pocket pistols(actaully all the ones you mention and then some)...still carry a j frame every single day(for years) and couldnt be happier

nice guy came into the store the otherday, he had gotten a 442 as he went all summer without a gun, his carry gun was a 1911(which here in the NW in summer really makes it hard to carry and enjoy summer)......now the j frame is his main gun....he will always have it with him.

Ohio Rusty
September 4, 2009, 09:23 PM
I have to agree 100%. The light wheel guns have plenty of power for the rounds they shoot. I'm currently looking for a S&W M&P 360 at an affordable price, the 13 ounce .357. Versatile gun. I can shoot light weight loads, +P's or I can fill the cylinder with .357's. I had a Charter arms .44 pug. It weights 26 ounces whrn loaded. It was too heavy for amy pocket and it felt like it was dragging my pants down. I'm not against the airweight models, and should I find one at a real good price, I'll do that also. I like the versatility of a .38/.357 snubby.
Ohio Rusty ><>

scurtis_34471
September 4, 2009, 10:25 PM
I prefer my Kahr to a snubby. It has a better trigger, better sights, softer recoil, higher capacity and a thinner profile.

dogtown tom
September 4, 2009, 10:37 PM
Phydeaux642: ...I refuse to pay $700+ for a PM9 (why can't they build a gun that is close to the same cost as a G26 or XD9?) and a Rohrbaugh is way out of my range at this time...

Uhhhh.......they do. Not everyone runs GunBroker auctions with a Buy Now! of $799 for a PM9.

I've transferred several PM9's in the last year. No one paid anywhere close to that. For example: NIB PM9 for $539 http://www.arizonagunrunners.net/Products/Kahr/PM9093/pm9093.html






.

halfded
September 4, 2009, 11:30 PM
DO any of you guys have trouble shooting lead bullets from your airweights?

Phydeaux642
September 4, 2009, 11:52 PM
Uhhhh.......they do. Not everyone runs GunBroker auctions with a Buy Now! of $799 for a PM9.

I've transferred several PM9's in the last year. No one paid anywhere close to that. For example: NIB PM9 for $539

Well, I haven't ever bought anything off of Gunbroker, but every shop in my area sells the PM9 for $700+ depending on the configuration. The MSRP is around $1,000, so, $700 didn't seem far from correct to me and I'm not paying that. And, the same shop can sell a G26 for $499 and a XD9sc for $489, so, I don't think they are trying to gouge me.

kdstrick
September 5, 2009, 12:00 AM
The 442 is a gem. When loaded with Corbon 110grn +P's it definately isn't your grandpa's 38 special.

Ohio Rusty
September 5, 2009, 01:40 PM
The great thing about the snubby compared to the Kahr autos ..... The snubby doesn't have some weird backward frame safety that confuses you if up is safe or down is fire. Bad thing to try to remember when your life is in danger. The snubby doesn't have to burn up $100 worth of ammo in a 200 round break in period just to make the gun reliable. The snubby will fire the first round right out of the box .....38 or .357 depending on which model you have .....No FTF's ...no FTE's, ... no stovepipes ....Instantly reliable as a CCW weapon without worry. And you can shoot low power wad cutters for practice and plinking, or light loaded 38's for target work, or full power defense rounds. The snubby wheel gun is definitely versatile when it comes to ammo selection.
Ohio Rusty ><>

TheProf
September 5, 2009, 04:27 PM
The PM9 does not have any external safeties.. (which is a good thing)
You can do quicker reloads with the PM9 vs. a snubbie.
The PM9 has a nicer trigger pull.
PM9 (6+1)(and it takes also the 8 round mag of its bigger brother vs. snubbie (5 rounds)
Reliable (99%) and accurate.

That said..it's a toss up for me between PM9 and 642.

Why?
The 642 is 100% reliable. Can be fired from inside a jacket pocket. You can make "contact" shots without problem. And if you have a dud round, just pull the trigger again.

scotthsi
September 5, 2009, 06:58 PM
PM9, $525 out the door with a 100 rd WWB value pack thrown in. LOVE it and have been pocket carrying it since 2005. I shoot it EVERY time I go to the range "just to be sure". It comes out of my pocket and fired as if I were using it to save my life. No "babying it", no "pre-lubing" it...not even blowing out pocket lint. Works perfectly every time. :cool:

wrs840
September 5, 2009, 07:11 PM
442 is my daily pocket-carry, and my home pocket-carry. I admit I now have an LCP (which has 100% reliability in feeding/firing so far) that I carry in some of my lighter-weight summer dress slacks when the 442 is too big or too heavy for the right-front pocket. The 442 loaded weighs 17.5 ounces, the LCP weighs 12.1 ounces loaded 6+1. The smaller/lighter LCP pocket-carries better for me in a few situations.

Les

kmbrman
September 5, 2009, 09:16 PM
I'll always keep my Taurus 605 snub in 357mag. I don't know how many snubs I have had which did not shoot to the POA of the sights like this one does. Also, it does so with my favorite defense loads in 125 JHP +P . Others got traded off for poor sight regulation on their fixed sights. Too, if you need more rounds just drop a couple of speed loaders in your pocket and you're ready to go, with 15 rounds .

Dogbite
September 5, 2009, 09:34 PM
I daily carry a 638 Smith. Uncle Mikes pocket holster. Its excellent. Ive been carrying it for about 5 years now.

Girodin
September 6, 2009, 03:07 PM
If you think you have found the perfect pocket gun in your Smith you really should at least try a Ruger LCR. The trigger on it is at least on par with my Kahr and vastly superior to any other DA revolver I have had occasion to fire. For what its worth I have never seen a PM9 for $700, $600 yes but not $700. Nothing wrong with a J frame though.

I agree a glock 26 is simply too big to pocket carry in almost all my pants pockets.

weisse52
September 6, 2009, 03:21 PM
I also find the 642 the perfect pocket pistol. Light weight, reasonable power level, confident it will go bang when needed to do so.

I am thinking I am going to add a M40 so I can have one in both pockets...

Phydeaux642
September 6, 2009, 05:03 PM
If you think you have found the perfect pocket gun in your Smith you really should at least try a Ruger LCR. The trigger on it is at least on par with my Kahr and vastly superior to any other DA revolver I have had occasion to fire. For what its worth I have never seen a PM9 for $700, $600 yes but not $700.

I agree that the LCR has a nice trigger and is a very good choice for pocket carry, but I really wouldn't be gaining much over my 642. As for the PM9, they seem to run from $680 to $730 in my neck of the woods. I used $700 as a mid-point. They go for $625 and up used around here.

Prosser
September 7, 2009, 08:36 AM
Pricing madness is starting to end. The Obamamania is giving way to a depression, where folks are selling guns, and, few have money to buy.

Kahr really should be about 500-550, and, Glocks should be 300-400.

Now, S&W snubbies. Everyone is bragging about the reliability. What about the lock? Mine had to come out, after it auto-locked.
With a 'tuned' 11 pound DA trigger, at 7 yards, with .357, I'm aiming center of mass, since head shots are pretty much out.

The Kahr has more rounds, a MUCH better trigger, and, at least in my hands, is headshot accurate at 7 yards, check that, touching holes in some cases.

The kahr is 20 oz, not 15 oz, so, in some forms of carry, it's too heavy.

Each has a place...

scotthsi
September 7, 2009, 09:32 AM
Prosser, not sure where you got 20 oz from but, according to the specifications on the Kahr website, the unloaded weight of a PM9 is 14 oz and the magazine is 1.9 ounces. OF COURSE it's going to be heavier when loaded, so don't bring that up, please. Every manufacturer lists unloaded weight because of so many different types of ammunition.

Prosser
September 7, 2009, 09:54 AM
My digital postal scale lists the gun at 1 pound, 3.7 oz loaded, or 19.7 oz. That's loaded. Loaded is the only weight I'm using, unless of course you pocket carry your gun unloaded.

Loaded, my .357 scandium snub weighs 14 oz. That's a huge weight difference, the difference between many kinds of carry, pocket, etc.

The Kahr weighs 14.9 oz, unloaded. Maybe the stainless slide is heavier?

scotthsi
September 7, 2009, 10:02 AM
So, you just had to bring up the loaded weight despite the fact that manufacturers cannot predict what ammo people will carry and that's why they list UNLOADED WEIGHT, huh? :rolleyes:

And, ALL Kahrs have stainless slides. But, that aside, I'm glad MY PM9 rides front pocket duty just fine pretty much all day, every day. :cool:

larryh1108
September 7, 2009, 12:03 PM
+1 on the PM9. Light, thin, accurate as all heck for a pocket gun and 100% reliable with 2400+ rounds thru it so far. Amazing little gun!

Prosser, what is your snubbie empty if it's 14oz loaded with .357s? The numbers don't seem to match up or that is one, light revolver.

dogtown tom
September 7, 2009, 01:15 PM
Ohio Rusty: The great thing about the snubby compared to the Kahr autos ..... The snubby doesn't have some weird backward frame safety that confuses you if up is safe or down is fire...

Huh?:scrutiny:

Currently, no Kahr pistol has or has ever had this feature. Kahr recently announced that it plans to sell a PM9 with a safety ONLY IN MASSACHUSETTS, supposedly to be released this fall. :rolleyes:

greenjeans
September 7, 2009, 04:40 PM
There is a picture of a PM9 with the safety on the Kahr website now. Hope they don't go that way with all of them.

scotthsi
September 7, 2009, 04:52 PM
As do I, greenjeans...

DougDubya
September 7, 2009, 06:44 PM
The great thing about the snubby compared to the Kahr autos ..... The snubby doesn't have some weird backward frame safety that confuses you if up is safe or down is fire. Bad thing to try to remember when your life is in danger. The snubby doesn't have to burn up $100 worth of ammo in a 200 round break in period just to make the gun reliable. The snubby will fire the first round right out of the box .....38 or .357 depending on which model you have .....No FTF's ...no FTE's, ... no stovepipes ....Instantly reliable as a CCW weapon without worry. And you can shoot low power wad cutters for practice and plinking, or light loaded 38's for target work, or full power defense rounds. The snubby wheel gun is definitely versatile when it comes to ammo selection.
Ohio Rusty ><>
That's just for one state. The vast majority have no safety.

Prosser
September 7, 2009, 07:17 PM
+1 on the PM9. Light, thin, accurate as all heck for a pocket gun and 100% reliable with 2400+ rounds thru it so far. Amazing little gun!

Prosser, what is your snubbie empty if it's 14oz loaded with .357s? The numbers don't seem to match up or that is one, light revolver.
Scandium 360PD. 11.7 oz unloaded. Custom Cocobolo grips.
It's not like the Kahr 9mm ammo has a huge variance in bullet weight that it will work with, reliably. Unlike a revolver, I can't load 200 grain
bullets in a Kahr, or, for that matter 80 grain bullets, like I can in .357, in a revolver.

I own, and shoot both, and, I like the PM9, mainly because I can shoot it better, it's flatter, and easier to conceal, despite the 5 oz weight difference.

However, for sweat pants carry to take out the trash, the .357 gets the nod...

ChefJeff1
September 7, 2009, 07:33 PM
Model 38 lives in my pocket. I would like a j-frame with magnum capabilities, but , for now, I have my ruger Sp101 for when I leave civilization.

weisse52
September 7, 2009, 11:50 PM
Everyone is bragging about the reliability. What about the lock
I have the 642 without the lock...will not buy one with a lock...no problem.
M40 does not have a lock either..will not buy one with a lock...no problem.

Everyone should carry what they are comfortable with. In reality everything that has been mentioned has a pretty good track record. It is all about what you like.

larryh1108
September 8, 2009, 12:20 AM
Prosser, What's the recoil like shooting .357 Magnums out of an 11oz+ gun? The recoil is snappy in the light LCP but that is .380ACP, not .357M. I can't even imagine....

Prosser
September 8, 2009, 12:45 AM
It is the most painful gun I've ever fired, and, that's saying a lot.

It's so light that the really heavy recoiling rounds move the gun at about 45-50 fps into your hand, with a twist, and, about 25 ft lbs of energy. The result is cut fingers, a flinch, palm damage that can last a week, pretty much horrible.

My favorite gun is a .475 Linebaugh. It moves at only 28 fps in recoil, though with twice the ft-lbs, and, is a joy to shoot in comparison.

From another day:

"I went to the range with a bunch of .357 ammo.
Actually got to go shooting yesterday. I concentrated on two things:
FA 83 22lr and finding a load I could fire with some sort of accuracy out of my 360PD with my Hogue Monogrip on it:


I'll post pics of the targets in a bit.

The goal was to fire enough .357, and 38 through the gun to pick a load for carry. Also, to get familiar with the gun.
Prior to the mongrip, the gun was unshootable with .357, cutting my finger on the first shot.
Now, it just beats me up. It requires a death grip to shoot, and, with the heavy trigger pull, double action, is not a candidate for target gun of the month. Shooting was done at 15 yards.

My right hand is very sore from the pounding it took, and,
like a real brain, I forgot my shooting gloves.

I shot a minimum of ten rounds of each load.
Range notes on .357 ammo extended grip

Federal Personal defense 357 158 grain hp 1240 fps
Heavy recoil, last shot came out of time
Not enough rounds to really test
Two cylinders
Recoils hard, have numb trigger finger, but, not cut

Hornady158 grain JHP XTP 1250 fps

Grouped really high takes death grip to shoot near accurately



American Eagle 130 grain FMJ
950 fps
really mild, but a bit low

Haven’t shot a decent group yet.

Federal Premium Low recoil .357 130 grain HPs 1300 fps?
Low recoil compared to what?
Hurt my hand.


Fioochi 357 Magnum 148 grain 1300 fps

Either my hand is really getting used to getting hammered, or, I like this one. Hits but it’s not sharp. Don't think it's that fast out of a snub...

Fusion 357 mag 158 grain hps at 1240 fps
Very heavy recoiling. Hurt hand.

Heavy 38 special Plus P 158 item 20A Buffalobore 1040 fps
Still pretty heavy recoil. Second favorite, behind Fioochi.

Seems the fiocchi recoils a bit less then the buffalobore 38, or at least sort of slower.

I decided that was enough, and, I have 5 more, heavier 357 loads I was going to try, but, didn't, since my hand hurt. I started off shooting about 10 rounds of .475, thinking that would get me ready for the 360PD, 357. Didn't work that way.

At 15 yards, I shot patterns, not groups. Also, after death gripping the 360PD, I doubled my target grade trigger Kimber, and, the range guy didn't like that much. Same problem with the .475 Linebaugh, with 400 grain XTP's, and a pretty good group, but flew the last shot. About 2".



The Freedom Arms 83 22lr, grouped around an inch, or less, with CCI Blazer 40 grain ammunition. The trigger is the standard 5 pound FA trigger, and, it's really sort of weird having a 22lr that has a much heavier trigger pull then a FA 83 .475 Linebaugh.

Anyway, it was great to get out and shoot.Thanks for the response. I had a bunch more stuff to try, but, I figure for now, either the Corbon 125's at 1204 fps, chronographed, or, the Fioochi 147 .357 mag loads will do the
trick. Oddly enough they seem to recoil about the same as the 158 grain Plus P buffalobore, which is a very effective snubby round, penetrating around 14" opening up well, and moving about 1040 fps out of an actual snub. I think the Fioochi is probably going the same, or slightly slower.

I will look into the short barrel stuff. Must be a reason I haven't tried it. This gun is a nice, light, pocket carry gun.
For IWB, or thunderwear, I'm looking at a 3" Model 60, Glock 30, or CCO style 1911, converted to .475 JRH short.

I 'tapered' the HM grip so it doesn't stick out as much, and print, when carried in thunderwear, or whatever the new name is for the stuff, smartcarry, I think.

I like the extra velocity I get from the 158 Item No. 20A/20 158 gr. L.S.W.C.H.P.--G.C. (1,000fps/M.E. 351 ft.lbs.)
S&W mod. 60, 2 inch—1040 fps (379 ft. lbs.)

I'll use that, or the 147 grain Fioochi. Both hammer me pretty good, far harder then the standard 38.

I also picked up these:
Item No. 19C/20 158 gr. JHC (1475 fps ME 763 ft. lbs.)
Item No. 19D/20 125 gr. JHC (1700 fps ME 802 ft lbs.)

But, decided my hand was hamburger, and, wanted to shoot something civilized, like 400 grain bullets at 1350 fps...
1. 3 inch S&W J frame

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard cast LFN = 1302 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr. JHC (jacketed hollow cavity) = 1299 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Speer Uni Core = 1398 fps
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Speer Uni Core = 1476 fps

I'd be real intrested if out of the snub barrel, if the above loads drop 100 feet, how much difference in recoil is really there."

Please note that unless chronographed, the short barrel on these guns REALLY rob .357 of being .357. If you get over 1200 fps, with ANY .357 load in a 1.8" barrel, your REAL lucky.

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/357mag.html

Guillermo
September 8, 2009, 01:23 AM
I have a J frame and a PM9

Interesting that the width difference is not a big deal

The reason why I carry the Kahr more is not because of capacity. The reason is that when it prints, and all guns do, it is not as obvious a gun. Its squareness can be mistaken for most anything

Dollar An Hour
September 8, 2009, 02:56 AM
I prefer my Kahr to a snubby. It has a better trigger, better sights, softer recoil, higher capacity and a thinner profile.

This is all true, but for me a J-Frame still rides better in the pocket and draws better from the pocket.

I sold my PM9 as it wouldn't reliably feed JHP ammo, even after a trip back to Kahr.

Still, the PM9 is a pleasure to shoot and one day I'll probably try another one. I'm a J-Frame guy for my pocket carry needs for now.

DAdams
September 8, 2009, 10:17 AM
of this thread for those seeking a pocket carry handgun is that all these folks have tried many different revolvers and semi-autos and have culled it down to those aforementioned. All excellent tried and trued choices. You can't beat a J frame though because even on a budget you can find one to fit your pocket... book (:rolleyes:).

I am fortunate to be able to afford the following pocket guns, none would I like divest myself of and mostly I carry a J frame or the Seecamp, just because it is so small and light.

J Frame M&P 340 with CT Grips (still my alltime favorite after almost three years).
J Frame 642 with CT Grips (bedside)
J Frame M60 Classic no lock with a hammer, would be great O or IWB, not pocket. Desk drawer.
Seecamp LWS 380
Kahr PM9

Good thread guys and great points all.

Duo
September 9, 2009, 12:51 AM
false

This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xd1SRtkhh-U) is rhe perfect pocket gun

fivepaknh
September 9, 2009, 07:26 AM
I just picked up a Ruger LCP $309 NIB. I'm more accurate with it than with my S&W model 36. It's lighter than my snubby so I can slip it into a pocket of my cargo shorts and it's not pulling my shorts down. In jeans it's almost always my Kahr K9 IWB.

ArchAngelCD
September 10, 2009, 04:19 AM
Phydeaux642,
Like you I've looked at several carry options but I always come back to a J frame, usually the M642-1. Now I have 4 J frames so when I get the itch to change my carry gun I can!! LOL.

M&PVolk
September 11, 2009, 01:59 AM
I won't own a Kahr. I love the J-frames, but am also intrigued a bit by the small pocket .380's. I am going to try a Keltec sometime here soon. I wish I could find a reasonably priced M&P 340 or 360 for the .357...they are just a bit too pricey for me right now. Five rounds of .357 would make me perfectly comfortable.

scotthsi
September 11, 2009, 10:39 AM
Why won't you own a Kahr? Because of the Moonies? :rolleyes:

Landpimp
September 11, 2009, 12:39 PM
Kahrs are the only line we carrry that we can sell to non Mil/Le, we have good prices on the PM9's(all 4 flavors) We never raised our prices do to the "madness"

I own and carry both J frames and Pm9....they are both great but stick with the J frame

scotthsi
September 11, 2009, 12:55 PM
Aside from the obvious "revolver versus semi-auto issue", why do you prefer the J frame over the higher capacity PM9? Does it just carry better for you? Since you said they are both "great", I'm taking that to mean they are as equally reliable.

Landpimp
September 12, 2009, 12:01 AM
yes, I find for me with my atire(shorts or carharts), for either pocket or other carry, the J frame just works best for me. I will also give it the nod that I personal feel that it will go bang bang for sure....more than a Pm9 that sat in my pocket for months without even the lint blown out ;)

smallbore
September 12, 2009, 06:28 AM
I also own/carry a 642. It was affordable and meets my needs.

hhb
September 12, 2009, 09:10 AM
I have most the the J-frames, and just added a 637 and a 442 with performance center super tuned triggers. Sweet!

scotthsi
September 12, 2009, 10:00 AM
.more than a Pm9 that sat in my pocket for months without even the lint blown out

And, that's the gun's fault? Semi-auto, revolver, whatever. Clean your carry gun at least once a month whether you shoot it or not. Only takes a few minutes as I'm not talking about a detailed cleaning. Heck, I take it out more than once a month just to wipe it down to keep the finish in top trim.

Landpimp
September 12, 2009, 11:50 AM
that was humor.....:D

but there is alot of truth to it, like it or not a wheelgun has the edge in relaiblity when uncared for more so than a semi....that was my real point

M&PVolk
September 12, 2009, 12:08 PM
SCOTTHSI Wrote:Why won't you own a Kahr? Because of the Moonies?

Not at all. I won't own a Kahr because I had a very poor experience with the CW .40 we did buy. Not only was the gun plagued with issues (averaged about 5 failures to feed, eject, etc. per mag, regardless of which mags we tried), but the company offered terrible customer service as well. I won't put up with that kind of treatment, and so, no more Kahr.

Smith and Wesson, in contrast, has offered me seriously excellent customer service and a quality product. Give me a J-Frame any day.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
September 12, 2009, 12:32 PM
Boberg or Bust.

doc2rn
September 13, 2009, 04:16 PM
I prefer an all steel snubby like the S&W bodyguard or my Ruger LCP to my 642.

Grayrider
September 14, 2009, 08:59 PM
I know you are after pocket carry, but personally I would say get a really comfortable IWB rig that hides well and up your pistol size a bit. You can get a CW9 (http://kahr.com/PA-1_9mm_cw.html) for much less than a PM9. Put that in a really good, tuckable holster like the Crossbreed SuperTuck (http://crossbreedholsters.com/IWB/tabid/56/CategoryID/1/List/0/Level/1/ProductID/1/Default.aspx?SortField=ProductName,ProductName) and you will be good to go. I occasionally carry a pistol in my pocket, but it is not the best arrangement when you actually need to draw the gun under stress. A lot of potential for it to snag on the way out. If you do that get a pocket holster, and be sure to practice drawing enough to make certain there are no issues with it hanging up on the way out.

John

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