[tango3065]

I want a glock 19 but why cant glock be like the rest of the world and put a manual safety on their guns, this would be a home gun so when I hear a knock in the middle of the night I can throw it in my back pocket and see whos there but with a glock its not really safe to put it in your pocket because if that trigger snags on something its hello new "HOLE IN MY FANNY" . Anyone else not buying a glock for this reason?



Edited to remove unacceptable verbage. - G Hill, Your Friendly Forum Moderator.

[10-Ring]

:what: I can't wait to see some of the posts that this one generates! :what:
Me, I'm not a Glock fan for other reasons :rolleyes: But I felt perfectly safe using one as my house gun. Besides, if I need it in the middle of the night, I won't need to put it in my pocket ;)

[SDC]

If you really, really, REALLY want a manual safety for a Glock, see http://www.cominolli.com/glocksafety.htm . It still doesn't change the fact that the only safety that counts should be the one between your ears; would you feel comfortable sticking a "cocked and locked" single-action in your pocket? I hope not. Also, if you're concerned enough about your safety to be prowling around your place at night with a pistol, the LAST place you want your pistol to be is "thrown in your back pocket"; if you need it, it should be in your hand.

[TheFederalistWeasel]

:rolleyes:

[TheFederalistWeasel]

:uhoh:

[TheFederalistWeasel]

:scrutiny:


http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=573486

[Navy joe]

Easy, put it in a paddle holster. Glock should never be carried mexican. FWIW I won't carry a 1911 cond. 1 without a trigger covering holster. Don't pull the trigger and you'll be fine.

[Old Fuff]

Last time I looked the Glock had a manual safety - mounted in the trigger face. So long as one keeps his finger off of the trigger the safety is "on." If one can't keep their finger away from the trigger (except when ready to shoot) they should carry some other kind of handgun.

Glocks were never intended to be carried loose in a pocket. They are expected to be carried in holsters that cover the trigger guard. They were in fact designed to be military weapons.

I think "msatinson" would be better off with a good double-action revolver, or a DAO pistol. He is right though. Considering his proposed use the Glock isn't his cup of tea.

[mrapathy2000]

you can buy a manual safety for glocks all but 1-2 versions it cost $85 for the safety and you can also get a jig for the installation. brownells carries it. its not made by glock why who knows.

[tango3065]

Okay for some I guess I didnt make it to clear ( so when I hear a knock in the middle of the night ) this means knock at the door, when I have a visitor after dark I like to have a handgun in my pocket;) Trust me I have heard nothing but praise for the glocks but I wish they coul be more like other manufactures like smith, beretta,sig,walther,ruger,cz,etc that way they could meet my needs and I would have a reason to buy one of these great guns.

[Obiwan]

They don't have a manual safty....

Because I don't want one

Buy a Sig...leave my glocks alone;)

[j45m16]

sigs don"t have them either

[treeprof]

If you want a manual safety, you'll have to take SIGs off your list - they don't have them.

You must have darn big pockets to carry a G19! Several pocket holsters available for Glock 26/27/33, tho. Not snagging a trigger is but one of many good reasons for a pocket holster - dirt, getting change, key's etc. caught in front or behind trigger, etc. regardless of any additional "safeties".

[Blueduck]

I really like Glocks and have owned several but I understand exactly where your coming from mastinson.

Can't really put them in a pocket or waitsband for quick look around, and was not real comfortable with them for nightstand drawer (or on rarer occasions glovebox) duty either. Choice of in holster or round unchambered means two hands and slower to get into action either way. Leaving one with exposed trigger loaded chamber just did not appeal to me in lots of off body carry scenarios.

Very nice gun and design though. Just didn't work for me in a lot of circumstances I ran into, so I went a different direction. I really appreciate what a good design the Glock is when trying to detail strip my 92FS
:(

[Shag]

You could always try the Saf-T-Blok http://www.tulsafirearms.com/online-catalog/locks-safes/saf-t-blok-glock.htm




Shaun

[Zundfolge]

If you want a Glock type handgun with a manual safety for a house gun, pick up a Steyr M9 or M40

[emann]

I sure wouldn't want any manual safety on a Glock, for Godsakes it's already got three safeties on it now.

[Snaps]

I'm not a fan of the design either. I don't use mine for carry just because of that lack of safety and won't buy another one... However I'm more than happy keeping it in the forbes holdster as a house gun.

[natedog]

I can't believe the Glockers haven't jumped on this one yet to thuroghly (can't spell at night :fire: ) explain it...

[9x19]

What's to explain?

Glocks don't have a conventional manual safety... and most of us "GLockers" prefer them just that way.

If you NEED a conventional manual safety, buy a different gun, or modify it to suit.

[jc2]

The Glock is just wrong weapon for his needs/wants. There are other better choices (or else modify the Glock with the Cominolli Safety).

For many years, I was in a similar situation. I lived far enough out (and had enough "customers" I had met professionally) that when I had an unexpected knock on the door a I would slip a 1911 (or a small revolver) in my back pocket (or in my waistband) and answer the door--just couldn't do that with a Glock.

The bottom-line is that for some missions where there are better choices than the Glock.

[denfoote]

I've "carried" a Glock 26 under my pillow for years. This particular Glock is quite vicious. It has the dreaded "minus trigger" and the reduced power trigger spring and a pull much like the 1911!!! :eek:

Last time I checked, there have never been any inadvertent holes that have magically appeared in my walls or ceiling!! :rolleyes:

Yes Virginia. I have answered the door with it in my pocket. :uhoh:
All it takes is the use of that marvelous safety between your ears. :what:

Use it and you won't lose the brain between your legs. :neener: :evil:

[CZ52GUY]

...go ahead and get one that is factory installed.

I generally prefer autoloaders which do not have manual safeties, but I have several that do.

If you are looking for a pocket gun, think about a little gun like the MAK'.

Cheap, reliable, small, and the manual safety works just fine.

If you are answering the door with it, you are at a contact range that reduces the risks associated with the smaller caliber.

There are many other fine alternatives for pieces that are small, but provide the manual safety feature that you desire.

Good luck,

CZ52'

[Top_Notch]

If you don't like the Glock, buy a revolver...much safer.
:D

[wanderinwalker]

smith, beretta,sig,walther,ruger,cz,etc

Ummm.... I don't know which Walthers you are thinking of, but if you get a P-99, P-88 or variant, they don't have manual safeties either. Neither does the Sig. Plus, CZs, Berettas, H&Ks, et. al. can be had with a decocker option and no manual safety.

Me, I like my Glock 17 and 26. They're great guns. The lack of manual safety means that I don't have to fumble with safeties. And before you tell me it's a training issue, I have seen guys with many, many years on me (very good shooters/competitors too) fudge up on the clock. I just keep my finger off of the trigger until the sights are on target. No big deal. HTH.

[CZ52GUY]

...on a SIG that is similar in size to a G19, and it does have a manual safety.

Price isn't horrible either.

I have the decocker version of this model, and I've enjoyed it.

http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=13152385

btw, I've purchased from this guy before. Very low key, but rock solid transactions are the rule with him.


Good luck,

CZ52'

[Boats]

I've "carried" a Glock 26 under my pillow for years. This particular Glock is quite vicious. It has the dreaded "minus trigger" and the reduced power trigger spring and a pull much like the 1911!!!

Man, this myth needs to end in a bad way. Yes a new disconnector and springs can make a Glock trigger feel sublime compared to the stock sproinger, but the comparison to a 1911 trigger is laughable, especially in regards to trigger travel and reset. Yes, I have made the comparison personally and it is nothing more than Glockenspiel. The only other pistol I have ever fired that feels comparable to a decent 1911 trigger was a P7M8 that had the trigger components mated after being worked over expertly with a stone.

Why can't the Glockers with worked triggers just be happy to say that their guns don't feel as spongy as a squirt gun anymore and be done with it, rather than make hilarious claims of equivalency to a 1911 that are demonstrably false?:rolleyes:

[CZ52GUY]

...a subjective opinion by definition cannot be proven demonstrably false.:D

Best wishes,

CZ52'

[SirVette]

If you want a safety, get a safety, a good feature. You might want to look into N.Y. trigger, a change to Glocks to reduce accidental discharges by trained LEOs.

[Boats]

...a subjective opinion by definition cannot be proven demonstrably false.

A subjective opinion not rooted in reality can be proven demonstrably false.:D All of the opining in the world is not going to change the objectve facts that even a massaged Glock trigger is going to have longer pretravel and longer reset than any decently done 1911 trigger.

Perhaps the earth is still flat subjectively to some people, but the fervency of such a belief doesn't make it objectively true.:evil:

[CZ52GUY]

I think if you review the gentleman's quote...

reduced power trigger spring and a pull much like the 1911

...the key words are *much like*.

If I recall correctly, the gentleman owns a 1911 and has some basis for direct comparison of the two.

Given that he did not claim equivalency, I'd contend your characterization of his statement as "Glockenspiel" is demonstrably false:neener: .

Just giving you a hard time ;) .

Have a good one,

CZ52'

[Boats]

Oh I know you are messing with me, but "much like," no matter how it is spun, is an attempt at some level of equivalency, which I often see on the 'net in regard to Glock and 1911 triggers, and which is wholly unwarranted.

My Ducati Monster S4 is much like a MV Augusta, in the sense that both are motorcycles that can go fast in style and come from Italy. Aside from niggling little details such as the two motorcycles are not much alike at all in any more than the most basic sense can I really say that.

[CZ52GUY]

Love your sig' line.

Stay safe,

CZ52':)

[Obiwan]

Nope ...glock triggers are not great...

Just real consistent...which is nice...for some of us

Ans Sigs don't really have safeties....they are just more comfortable for most people ...

[ARperson]

I think the whole idea is ludicrous. Keeping the gun in the pocket, manual safety or no. He's just as likely to flip the safety to "hot" as he is to catch the trigger when pulling it from the pocket.

So how's that more safe than a Glock? :confused:

I'd like to second the sentiment that if he can't keep a finger off the trigger, no safety in the world is gonna be good enough.

[Graystar]

If you don't like the Glock, buy a revolver...much safer. A revolver is safer? "Much" safer? :scrutiny:

[Skunkabilly]

My attraction to the Glock is because it has no manual safety. I think all Glocks need added to their product line are two-tone guns :D

[jc2]

I've "carried" a Glock 26 under my pillow for years. . . . I have answered the door with it in my pocket.

If you use "that marvelous safety between your ears," you don't sleep with an unholstered Glock under your pillow or carry it in your pocket!

[9x19]

jc2,

Perhaps some people are better at gun handling than others?

:neener:

[tango3065]

Well see my simple little question/comment really made the ???? fly, sorry. Could someone please explain what a decocker is and how its different from a safety?

[Old Fuff]

Graystar:

I would say that if you are going to sleep with a handgun under a pillow, and when getting up to answer the door late at night (or whenever) simply dropping it into a pocket, a revolver is about as safe as you can get. The safety(s) are mechanical and require no action on the part of a user. To fire the piece requires a long heavy pull on the trigger (unless you thumb-cock it first).

I don't recommend either practice (a gun under the pillow or dropped into a pocket without a holster) but if one was inclined too do so I would suggest that a double-action revolver would be the best choice.

[Blueduck]

Matison,

A traditional double action gun fires it's first shot from a long heavy pull, second and subsequent shots have a shorter lighter (singleaction) pull. A decocker lets you hit a button or lever to set the gun back to the original longer heaver pull (the condition it's normally carried or stored in). Basically it's a device that lowers the hammer for you mechanically.

Some guns like the Beretta 92F and most S/W traditional double action pistols use a decocker that also happens to be the safety lever. Push up and it decocks gun and you can leave it up to act as a manual safety. The Sig and "G" model Berreta's (among others) have a decocker lever but they can't be left in the position to be used as manual safety.

[CZ52GUY]

On an autoloader, the decocker is intended to allow you to safely disengage the hammer without an accidental discharge (manually disengaging carries with it risk of unintended primer strike by firing pin).

Many autoloaders have both, but several have just the decocker in lieu of a manual safety.

http://pix.gunbroker.com/pixhost/2003-05-25/donkey_21_1054153578_29550.jpg

In this photo, the lever below the slide release disengages the hammer.

The lever for the safety may also serve as a decocker as with the Makarov pictured here.

http://pix.gunbroker.com/pixhost/2002-09-29/JULESCODY_1033418872_Makarov.jpg

Best wishes,

CZ52'

[jc2]

9x19 -
Perhaps some people are better at gun handling than others?
It is definitely NOT "better gun handling" to sleep with an unholstered Glock under your pillow (or to stuff one in your pocket). It is irresponsible to encourage that kind of "gun handling" in a public forum.

[JohnKSa]

It is definitely NOT "better gun handling" to sleep with an unholstered Glock under your pillow (or to stuff one in your pocket). It is irresponsible to encourage that kind of "gun handling" in a public forum.
Gotta agree. With one in the pipe, a Glock should be either pointed at a shootable target or in a hard holster that covers the trigger guard.

Exception would be if you went with a Saf-T-Blok or something more elaborate...

[355sigfan]

Guns should always either be in the safe or in some type of holster. Even pocket guns should be in a pocket holster.
Carrying a gun in an unsafe manner will get you hurt no matter what the gun happens to be.
Pat

[9x19]

jc2,

The world does not revolve around either my, or YOUR, idea of what is, or is not safe.

WE cannot make that decision for everyone, much as that may irk you. (I'm fine with it.)

If the poster feels safe with the Glock under their pillow, then they will keep it under their pillow... they need no encouragement, public or private.

Human adults often have a habit of making up their own minds about a thing... this seems to be one.

My Glock 34 resides at my bedside, without a holster, with the chamber loaded, and we are perfectly (no pun intended) safe together.

I've decided.

Prattle on if you must...

[355sigfan]

Wow for the first time I find myself in complete agreement with Jc2.
Pat

[wardog]

Mastinson,

I agree 100%. I've shot one quite a bit, but have not owned one yet. I actually like the way Glock's look. I've read a million good Glock stories. They are reliable. They're not overpriced. The trigger is (at least) consistent, shot after shot. Their caliber selection is awesome. Their selection of sizes is fantastic. Their finish is tough. There are tons of holsters / accessories available.

I would just rather have a manual safety 1911 style instead of one on the trigger face. (Don't really like the aftermarket add-on one) The trigger seems light to me. Light enough that something like a holster retention strap could get caught in it. Putting a device that stops rearward trigger movement on the face of the trigger seems kind of worthless to me.

I still want one (or two) though. Just have to make the commitment to keep it in a hard holster that covers the trigger.

[Graystar]

I still want one (or two) though. Just have to make the commitment to keep it in a hard holster that covers the trigger. What you really want is a holster without a thumb-break. I think that is what gets caught in the triggers of people that have NDs. There are several popular Kydex holsters that hold very well without a thumb-break.

One can also simply be mindful and not shove the damn gun into the holster if it's offering more resistance than usual. :rolleyes:

[WonderNine]

The Glock just has to strange of a grip angle for me and the gun is too blocky all over IMO. A friend of mine's hand got sliced from the slide of his G19.

They don't point well for me at all either. And that trigger safety thing I just can't stand. A Glock is probably the last gun I would ever consider purchasing.

[Covey Rise]

IMHO is much more natural feeling, cheaper for sure, just as reliable, normal capacity magazine dont exist, but I have a 40 so I'm only 2 shy with the ten rounder.

I would not carry a Glock in my pocket after reading how many AD's the DC police department has had with the Glock. The one that sticks in my mind is female police officer at the range re-holstering her glock and the retention strap got caught in the trigger guard on the way in the holster and boom, 147 gr hollowpoint in the upper thigh, will never walk again due to no bone left, it just shattered into thousands of pieces, so if you glock guys still want to carry them any way other than in a non retention type of holster, think about it couple more times and dont let the Glock Perfection go to the head too much, nice guns though other than that.

[355sigfan]

I would not carry a Glock in my pocket after reading how many AD's the DC police department has had with the Glock.
END

First off there is not really such a thing as a Ad they are ND's Negligent discharges. And the DC thing is a training issue. If you don't train people to keep their finger off the trigger they will have problems. I doubt the officers retention strap got caught. She probably had her finger on the trigger when she reholstered. We have had 0 problems with our Glocks in the ND area. Most agencys in my state use glocks so far I have not heard of any ND's with Glocks. I know of a female Las Vegas officer who had a ND with her DA Beretta while reholstering. The gun was not cocked. Her finger was where it should not have been. Its simply a matter of training. And not its not smart to just throw a Glock in your pocket. But thats a piss poor way to carry any gun.
Pat

[WonderNine]

First off there is not really such a thing as a Ad they are ND's Negligent discharges.

Thanks for spreading that Glocktalk terminology over here. Henceforth never let the term "accidental discharge" be uttered again! Score one up for the thought police.

[355sigfan]

Its not a Glocktalk term its a firearms instructor and firearms community term. When a gun fires its seldom if ever a true accident.
Pat

[WonderNine]

You mean when a gun was fired accidently it is seldom an 'accident'?

That's what you're getting at right?

[355sigfan]

An accident is at no fault to the party involved. A negligent discharge is caused by the operator. Its cause by negligence. They did not intend to fire but they were not following the gun safety rules and they did fire as a result.
Pat

[WonderNine]

Fair enough, I just happen to be of the opinion that the operator error margin is greatly reduced with a chambered Glock.

I wouldn't carry a BHP cocked and locked with the safety off.

[denfoote]

Man, this myth needs to end in a bad way. Yes a new disconnector and springs can make a Glock trigger feel sublime compared to the stock sproinger, but the comparison to a 1911 trigger is laughable, especially in regards to trigger travel and reset. Yes, I have made the comparison personally and it is nothing more than Glockenspiel. The only other pistol I have ever fired that feels comparable to a decent 1911 trigger was a P7M8 that had the trigger components mated after being worked over expertly with a stone.

Why can't the Glockers with worked triggers just be happy to say that their guns don't feel as spongy as a squirt gun anymore and be done with it, rather than make hilarious claims of equivalency to a 1911 that are demonstrably false?

Yo Boats,
Didn't you get the memo homey??
This Glockster's got not one, but two 1911's!!!!!
I still say the trigger's the same!! :evil:

[CZ52GUY]

...He went from similar to equivalent.

...Course I think he's just messing with ya' too, but that's just me...:D

Have a good weekend gang,

CZ52'

[jc2]

9x19 -
The world does not revolve around either my, or YOUR, idea of what is, or is not safe.
There are certain practices that are simply unsafe (for example, playing "Russian Roulette"), period. Sleeping with an unholstered Glock under your pillow or sticking one in your pocket without a holster is such a practice.

Just because the poster "feels safe" with the Glock under his pillow (or unholstered in a pocket) does not mean he is safe, or that it is a good practice. I understand that if he chooses to do so, it is his decision. To encourage, or even to even suggest, the practice to other readers of this forum (some of whom know very, very little about firearms or safe firearms handing) is irresponsible.

[MaterDei]

This Glockster's got not one, but two 1911's!!!!!
I still say the trigger's the same!!

Denfoote, take the manual safety off BEFORE you do your trigger comparison test. :neener:

[CZ52GUY]

This month's America's 1st Freedom has a tragic story regarding collective imposition of safety requirements (re: California's rigid and criminally dangerous mandatory storage laws).

I'm not sure why a properly holstered firearm under the pillow is as dangerous as Russian Roullette.

Similarly with an unholstered firearm in a pocket to answer the door equivalent to Russian Roullette.

I wouldn't sleep with a loaded firearm under my pillow, but I don't live in a location where I believe the trade-offs require that kind of instant access.

I would consider putting a loaded firearm in a pocket (likely some sort of loose fitting pull over sweatshirt or something along those lines...actually need to review my inventory for that type of item) to answer the door after Midnight, likely with my shooting hand on that firearm with trigger finger firmly pressed against the slide...opening the door with my weak hand.

I think that each individual needs to carefully consider the trade-offs of their circumstances.

Russian Roullette is an irresponsible and in many places, criminal act.

Sleeping with a holstered side arm within very quick access or putting one in one's pocket simply are not equivalent acts and I can see where they could be accomplished safely.

Bottom line, what is more dangerous, is to be so "safe" (and I think John Lott in several articles within the past few months as eloquently communicated this) to neuter the weapon of self-defense so it is impractical to use when needed (the tragedy described below being just one example of objective evidence).

CZ52'


P.S. For those who may not be familiar, a mentally disturbed (naked) man broke into a home with a pitchfork. Several children were home alone (5 as I recall). The oldest two were in their teens, certainly old enough to be qualified supervision in the judgment of their parents. This was a gun owning home, where the children had be trained in the safe and effictive use of these weapons. However, in compliance with state laws, the ammunition was stored separately from the guns combined with state approved devices used to store the guns made use of the weapons impractical. In the stress of the event and because of the ferocity of the attack, the criminal was able to murder two of the children who were unable to retrieve the weapons, and ultimately sacrificed themselves for the sake of the other 3 by attempting to tackle him while ordering the others to flee and get help.

When pontificating about gun safety (and gun safety is absolutely essential) we need to be careful not to become aligned with the anti's who seek to ensure that legal guns become illegal, and failing that, become ineffective. The CDC statistics they cite are bogus. A teenager is more likely to die from a fall than from an AD/ND.

One does not need to neuter their gun to keep it safe.

[Blueduck]

Ditto CZ52GUY. We have to be alert to "Safety".

Gun in safe, ammo in separate safe, is very...well safe, but virtually worthless for defense. People for good reasons like to pride themselves on being very responsible with firearms (sometimes in a high horse type manner to show what an "expert" they are), but frankly this is also the latest tactic of anti's and some shooters are falling for it hook line and sinker.

Notice how many groups who once used the term "Gun Control", now use the term "Gun Safety". First they strive to mandate "Safety Measures", then argue that people obeying the law they just created could not possibly use the gun for defense anyway so why do they need them at all...

Yep, I've shoved my 3" 65 in my back pocket to answer the door at night. Don't think it was a bit dangerous and not comaprable at all to trying to carry a G-26 in my front pocket without a holster all day long. I do have my Beretta 92FS safety on stored where I can reach it quickly at night, and I can get it into action with one hand if neccesary (one reason I chose it over a Glock for this role). When I'm not home all guns are locked up or on my side in a holster.

Risk assement, home environment, guns operational system all play a part in your personal plan IMHO. Web advice from somebody who has no clue what your personal circumstances are...not priceless ;)

[Boats]

Denfoote must have two base model Series 80 Colts, you know the ones with the extra firing mechanism parts and the plastic triggers? That would make them "much the same" as Glock triggers.:D

Show me the Glock that has about 4mm of trigger pretravel and about the same reset with three-four pounds of pull and I'll know I am a beholding a pistol that has next to no safety margin from an AD/ND standpoint.:evil:

[Obiwan]

Come on kids...play nice or a moderator will have to separate you.

Glocks are not for everyone...no doubt about it.

I think the XD series specifically targets people that want "safer" glocks.

Some people don't even feel comfortable with a round chambered in a DA firearm...that does not make them a wimp;)

I agree that every discharge that does not involve a mechanical problem is involves Negligence.

Blaming the weapon...any weapon....does make you a wimp:D

By definition, no weapon is safe if you don't keep your finger where it belongs!

That is why we have the basic rules...safety is an illusion

If you want safe...get a P7

[BevrFevr]

No, I don't own a Glock yet but I have stopped bitchin about them not having an active safety.

They fill a role. If that role ain't for you then don't buy one. If you do get a good holster and follow the basic rules of gun safety and you should be ok.

As far as cops shooting themselves and others. This may sound harsh, but there is a reason that they are cops and not brain surgeons. It's cause they have a little less safety between their ears. And Hey some cops I know are some of my very favorite people but I wouldn't let any of em around a brain tumor with a scalpel.

-bevr

[Covey Rise]

FBI Quote

"The FBI Academy's firearms training unit tested various semiautomatic handguns and in a 1988 report gave the Glock low marks for safety. The report cited the weapon's "high potential for unintentional shots."

Ayoob

"Some of the same factors that give it tremendous high-speed hit potential while you're fighting for your life also make it more prone to accidental discharges," Massad Ayoob, a New Hampshire police captain who also runs a firearms instruction institute, said. "You don't want your 16-year-old kid out of driver's ed driving a Corvette Stingray. The Glock is like a Corvette Stingray."

Sig355fan you better call up Ayoob tell him he is using incorect terminology with is AD quote.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/local/longterm/dcpolice/deadlyforce/police4page1.htm (http://)

[CZ52GUY]

I've learned to be skeptical of government reports, especially those that are 15 years old and may have little relevance to models that did not exist at the time. ;)

The great thing about America, is if you want to give your kid (a 16-year old with valid drivers license) a Porsche, the government can't prevent you (not yet anyway).

I'm not convinced that a Condition 1 Glock isn't as safe or more safe than a condition 1 snubbie.

I'm more comfortable w/my Glocks from a safety perspective because I know the expectations on me that they require. I know that if I keep my finger out of the trigger guard until I'm ready to fire, that AD/ND is minimized.

Bottom line, I don't expect to allocate to the inanimate object something I'm accountable for.

Similarly, I don't expect others to allocate to me, the right to choose for them what is or isn't safe.

A Glock is as safe as it's operator, which is all you can ask of a gun.

Best wishes,

CZ52'

[jwmoore]

SIG does make some models with a manual safety. For example, the M2 (http://www.sigarms.com/documentation/Mauser_M2_OM.pdf). DAO, with a safety on the rear of the slide. Shoots quite nicely.

~W

[Correia]

Glocks are fine weapons. They just have a very distinct manual of arms that requires a high standard of care.

I can believe the instance cited above with the safety strap. Just for fun, make sure your Glock is empty, check it again, then untuck a bunch of your shirt and let it drop into your holster. Now try to reholster. If you have your shirt protruding into your holster just right you can actually dry fire your Glock. I've seen it done as an experiment.

I believe somebody shot themselves in the leg at Frontsight in that manner a couple of years ago. This is the reason why some really sharp holster companies like Edge Works have a shirt shield kinda raised edge on the inside of their holsters.

I'll never make fun of Glocks, I've been whooped far to many times by Glock shooters. :)

[355sigfan]

FBI Quote

"The FBI Academy's firearms training unit tested various semiautomatic handguns and in a 1988 report gave the Glock low marks for safety. The report cited the weapon's "high potential for unintentional shots."

Ayoob

"Some of the same factors that give it tremendous high-speed hit potential while you're fighting for your life also make it more prone to accidental discharges," Massad Ayoob, a New Hampshire police captain who also runs a firearms instruction institute, said. "You don't want your 16-year-old kid out of driver's ed driving a Corvette Stingray. The Glock is like a Corvette Stingray."

Sig355fan you better call up Ayoob tell him he is using incorect terminology with is AD quote.
END

First off guess what the FBI is issued now. Yep GLock 22's and 23's. The FBI was wrong and realized it and now they issue a fine weapon.

Second Ayoob is a respected teacher but he is not a handgun safety god. If he choses to use the antiquated term of Accidental Discharge instead of Negligent Discharge he can. Clint Smith, Chuck Taylor and many others disagree with him and they have better credentials. Mass is a reserve cop that writes gun articles and teaches people to shoot. Many people have inflated him and how valuable his opinion is over the years. He has flip flopped several times on what he carries or recomends people carry.
Pat

[auschip]

For those who are interested, I found the Comp-Tac shirt tucker fits perfectly in my backpocket when I want to answer the door at Dark:30. The clips provide plenty of retention if I choose to draw, and I have 100% trigger coverage. Just a thought.

[Mastrogiacomo]

In "Hannibel," Agent Starling put her Glock in belt Mexican style while she was trying to cut Hannibel loose. Not a move I'd do. I'm planning on getting Glocks when I have the money because I love them -- but my house gun remains my Berettas.

[George Hill]

I was expecting to shut this down shortly after this started... but I am pleased with the level of civility... Let's keep it that way, or I'll have to break out my big stick.
http://www.madogre.com/images/stick.gif

[9x19]

jc2,

Nice prattle... :p but wholly unconvincing. That which I have proven to myself, as others no doubt have done, makes it so.

You may not like it, and it may make you cringe, but that is only a problem for you.

Good day.

[denfoote]

Denfoote must have two base model Series 80 Colts, you know the ones with the extra firing mechanism parts and the plastic triggers? That would make them "much the same" as Glock triggers.

Boats,
Wrongo!! I have an IMI M-5000 which is a commander clone. It has served as my "training" 1911 until I got my Springer!!

FYI, the Glocks have been in the safe for several months now. I carry the 1911's!!!! :D

[Covey Rise]

Government most likely went with the lowest bidder on the choice of the Glock being its sidearm. That is why 50% of all LEA use Glock, not because it is a safer or more superior weapon, it just comes down to budgeting, the FBI can spend the money on other more important things than a seldom used firearm. Good gun for the money.

[355sigfan]

Government most likely went with the lowest bidder on the choice of the Glock being its sidearm. That is why 50% of all LEA use Glock
END

Not entirely true. As one who has been apart of weapon selection processes for my LEO agency I can tell you cost is only an issue after certain standards are met. The FBI went with the Glock because it offered a longer service life than their previous sigs and a better value overall. Actually about 70% of leo's use glocks because they are simple, reliable, accuarate weapons. Besides you missed the point. The poster stated the FBI in 1983 said that Glocks were unsafe. They now issue Glocks. It goes to show that the FBI no longer thinks they are unsafe.

If the Govt went strictly on cost we would be carring Ruger autos or Sigma's.
Pat

[MaterDei]

I was expecting to shut this down shortly after this started
I was expecting the same. What a pity it hasn't been shut down yet. The occassional flame fests are fun.:neener:

http://www.madogre.com/images/stick.gif

[marauder220]

Just my experience since I recently switched to a PD that is all G23 for uniformed issue. There are 25 officers on my dept, all issued the G23, and all also own either another G23 or the G27 as backups. We've been using the Glocks for about 5yrs. Overall we have not had ANY problems in regard to the overall safety of the weapons. In the testing process I read over, the Glock did come out on top as a superior weapon. Brands tested included SIG, HK, S&W, Beretta, and Ruger. The sig\s&w\beretta were all DAO weapons, the ruger&HK were standard DA\SA. If we were looking to go with the cheapest price weapon, the Ruger was it. We conducted a series of tests and each of our officers fired each weapon extensively, for a total of 3,000rnds per weapon. The Glock won in regards to durability and reliability, etc, since it experienced NO problems during the entire test.
To date, no negligent discharges or any safety concerns from those carrying the Glocks daily. Also, I've never seen any of our officers ever carry a Glock without some form of appropriate holster. Basically the Glock is a safe weapon as it sits, its training that will make YOU safe with the weapon.

[tango3065]

Well liooks like im not going to have any freinds on here after i got this started.:D :D

[Blueduck]

Doubt it'll hurt you mastinson.

You could have posted "I recently dug 1,911 fox holes with my Glock entrenching tool along the M-9 motorway." and 98% of the post that followed would have been the exact the same responces;)

[M58]

Kahr safety thread for you males to jump on now...:rolleyes:

[danbh]

If I felt that I had to pick up a weapon to answer the door in the middle of the night it would not leave my hand. I can always hold my hand behind my
back. A nd in the middle of the night I don't have pants with pockets in them..:)

[jnb01]

Glock's are as safe as those handling them, just like any other firearm. However, the design is less forgiving of a momentary lapse in concentration, or poor handling. If an individual so chooses, they can utilize an 8-lb or 12-lb. trigger, use the safe-T-blok, or have installed the after-market manual safety.

The interesting thing is that many companies are now making models with a "Glock-like" trigger. HK (LEM), Springfield (XD), Sig (DAK also know as "K"), Para-Ordnance (LDA), Walther (P99 QA), ect.......Many LE trainers have stated that it is easier to teach a consistent trigger pull, and a lighter consistent stroke lends itself well to accurate shooting, hence 1911 type pistol's often dominating the gun game scene, and being the prefered weapon of many elite LE and military unit's. Of course, they devote considerable time to training.

In an extremely stressful situation, even a heavier DA pull can seem light when adrenaline flood's the body. I'm sure some folk's have viewed the footage of the female LVMPD officer who had an ND with her DA Beretta while covering a suspect (not while reholstering as Pat previously stated), narrowly missing the BG and her partner who were both on the ground. The Beretta has roughly a 14-15lb. trigger pull for the first shot, in addition to a loooong stroke in DA mode. Also, factor in that the average female has less grip and finger strength than the average male.

Frontsight's training facility has recorded two ND's to date. One, was with a 1911 that the operator forgot to "on safe" before reholstering, sending a bullet through his foot. It was thought that the design of the holster he was using combined with the pistol's safety being off, caused the discharge; his hand was still of course engaging the grip safety on the downward push to reholster. The second, was with a P229, who's operator failed to decok after firing, subsequently attempting to holster a cocked and unlocked weapon. :uhoh: The attempt was unsuccessful, sending a bullet through his thigh. In this case, it was determined he also had his finger on the trigger.

With any pistol, one must train and familiarize themselves with it's operation and manual of arms. Any design can prove dangerous, although when an accident or ND occurs, it is rarely the fault of the pistol itself, but rather it's owner, who is ultimately to blame. It's much easier for a LE agency to blame the pistol, rather than it's officer, or the lack of training provided. I would imagine that most officer's wouldn't want to admit to the brass, press, lawyer's, ect....that they had their finger on the trigger resulting in a ND. Additionally, many LE agencies require the use of the heavier NY trigger's on Glocks, either the 8 or 12-lb version's. Some folk's have lamented that the Glock design has made them more conscious of firearms handling in general and feel "safe" carrying it, while other's are uncomfortable with it, prefering a DA first shot. It's all personal preference really, but regardless of trigger pull weight, training and attentiveness is what counts.

Best, jnb01

[44]

I have the Cominolli safety on a G19. Low profile and real snappy.

I'm no gun expert, but it's easy to see the great amount it extends the safe usefulness of the Glock. Once you are no longer a slave to the holster, you can put the gun wherever you MUST. All you have to do is retrain a little.

People say "Even if you did not have time to strap on your holster, never shove a stock Glock in your pocket or pants, no matter how bad you need both hands free." I say that's GOOD advice, and an absurd inflexibility.

The Glock was made for people who would ALWAYS be wearing a holster.

And, of course, if you have the Glock in a holster that you are NOT wearing, it takes two hands to access the gun. Bad. Very.

I've had Glocks since they first came out. The Cominolli Safety is a major step forward. You have all the many serious advantages of the Glock, plus many of the advantages of the 1911.

And no kid or goon can pick it up and just right off shoot it at someone, or at you. It can give you several vital seconds for action.

Just my opinion.

[bad_dad_brad]

I am always amused at the way threads about the Glock progress. This one was pretty good however. It seems that Glocks invoke a lot of emotion, positive and negative. I always like to say, you either like Glocks or you dislike them. I personally like my Glocks and find them to be quite safe, accurate, tough, and reliable.

As far as the Glock trigger goes, I understand those who do not care for this system. It takes a little getting used to. But I have to say, I find the system to my liking. I think the Glock trigger is safer, than say, a Kahr's, or a slick revolver DA (which the Kahr is very much like). I think that Glock trigger safety works pretty good, and if I compare it to the time I stuffed my MK9 in my waistband (unloaded) with how a G19 faired (again unloaded), I found that the MK9 trigger would be more likely to pull to break.

Regardless, good discussions, and to all my THR brothers and sisters, have a very Merry Christmas and may all your dreams be of the sugar plum coated firearms that you wish for (my dream is of a SIG 210).

[BluesBear]

CZ52GUY wrote:
I'm not convinced that a Condition 1 Glock isn't as safe or more safe than a condition 1 snubbie.
There is no Condition 1 on a stock Glock or on a standard Revolver.

Glocks are normally carried Condition 0
DA Revolvers are usually carried Condition 2
SA Revolvers without a transfer bar should be carried Condition 3

Condition 0 is Cocked with no safety applied.
Condition 1 is Cocked & Locked (manual safety applied)
Condition 2 is Hammer Down on a Loaded Chamber
Condition 3 is Hammer Down on an Empty Chamber

[jc2]

Wrong! There is no Condition 0 (cocked with no safety applied) on a Glock (with or without the Cominolli Safety).

Glocks can only be carried Condition 2 (hammer down on a loaded chamber) or Condition 3 (hammer down on an empty chamber). The only time a Glock is "cocked" is when the trigger is pulled.

[BluesBear]

Glocks can only be carried Condition 2 (hammer down on a loaded chamber) or ...
There is no hammer on a Glock it is a striker fired pistol.
Since the striker is "set" and there is no double strike ability it is actually closer to cocked than uncocked.

After all we are trying to apply Condition that were devised as a way to describe the Conditions of a Single Action Hammer Fired Semi-Auto pistol.

Perhaps we should create a new condition for safe-action pistols such as Condition 0½? Might as well confuse as many people as possible.

Would that make a Double Action such as a US M-9 carried Hammer Down on a Loaded Chamber with the Safety Applied Condition 2½?

[jc2]

There is no hammer on a Glock it is a striker fired pistol.
I was using YOUR terminology.
Since the striker is "set" and there is no double strike ability it is actually closer to cocked than uncocked.
NO! "Double strike abilitity" has nothing to do with whether the action is single or double--some double actions have a double strike capability, and some do not.

If the Glock were "cocked," pulling the trigger would ONLY (single action) release the striker allowing it to strike the primer. The Glock is a double action (only) pistol in that pulling the trigger BOTH (double action) pulls the striker to the rear AND releases the striker. Pulling the trigger accomplishes TWO actions hence DOUBLE action. Double action has nothing to do with a second strike capability or the "feel" of the trigger--it describes what pulling the trigger does. Condition 2 correctly describes how the Glock is carried with a round in the chamber--striker at rest on a loaded chamber.

[cornbread2]

Some of you really need help in understanding basic gun design.

First no one can carry a "cocked" Glock. A Glock is a DAO and is only "cocked" if it's owner has the pistol in his hand and is pulling the trigger. The Glock is not a single action and no one that understands the Glocks trigger group can say otherwise.

An AD is the term for what happend if a firearm fires WITHOUT a trigger pull.

This is almost impossible with a Glock but very possible on some junk guns and the Steyr M and S series pistols. One should NEVER reccomend the Steyr as being a safer gun than a Glock. It could possibly be safer for ND's if one uses the manaul safety but in no way shape or form is it as drop safe as the Glock or most other modern designs. No one that knows and completly understands the design of the Steyr can cay otherwise.

An ND is what happens if someone accidently pulls the trigger on a firearm. That does happen with Glocks MOSTLY when used by untrained people or idiots.

Wearing a uniform and a badge does not make one not an idiot.

Manaul safetys that only block the trigger pull do not make a gun drop safe and have NO effect on AD's.

Also it is apparent from reading a few of the posts here that a lot of you have never even pulled the trigger on a Glock. I fail to see how your opinion of the Glock trigger has any business in this conversation.

[Sarge]

I ain't even gonna start with the "Glock action type" argument. Like a keyboard, it's dangerous in the hands of people who can't excercise a little self discipline when things get heated up.

What I will add is this- other than a 1911, I don't care for a manual safety on my carry guns. For "no safety" guns, I prefer a true DA like the Sig 22x series guns- or a revolver.

I used to think that the Glock was more dangerous than a traditional DA, until I saw the video of that LA County deputy shooting the prone suspect with her Beretta. I guess she could have shot him twice with a Glock, which according to my empirical statistical analysis of the situation makes a Glock roughly twice as dangerous as a Beretta.:D

The fact is, if you get stupid with a pump shotgun, somebody's probably gonna get shot. You can't build an idiot-proof gun, because they just keep cranking out better and better idiots.

Pick a gun that works. Learn it to the point that safe handling and reloading become second nature, because when thing go south you are going to have plenty of other things to think about. Once you've learned that gun and proven it reliable, keep it concentrate on accuracy. Speed will come.

I think that a lot of people cheat themselves out of proficiency because they trade for every fad gun that comes down the pike, and they never learn anything really well. I'm a big believer in sticking with one action type for everything, and then just concentrating on accuracy and speed.

[artherd]

From a user's standpoint, Glocks are DAO guns with what ammounts to an 'assist spring' in feel, reducing what would be a 10lb trigger to 5lbs or so.

You won't need an external safety if you use it properly.


Very simply, if you do not pull the trigger, it WILL NOT go bang. (3 internal safetys.)

Conversely, very simply, if you DO pull the trigger, it WILL go bang, every time.

[BluesBear]

Some of you really need help in understanding the differences between;
Single Action
Double Action
Double Action Only
Safe Action


And some of you really need help in understanding the difference between Owner & Operator.


And a few need to stop being so thin skinned.

[Zundfolge]

Ayoob

"Some of the same factors that give it tremendous high-speed hit potential while you're fighting for your life also make it more prone to accidental discharges," Massad Ayoob, a New Hampshire police captain who also runs a firearms instruction institute, said. "You don't want your 16-year-old kid out of driver's ed driving a Corvette Stingray. The Glock is like a Corvette Stingray."

It seems that this quote was used to bolster the position that the Glock is inherently less safe then other makes ... but the way I read it I see it backing the position that training is the issue ... not the guns design.

Why is it that many of the same people who think the Glock is "unsafe" have no problem with a Kahr, or a Wheelgun? Same problem ... no manual safety ... pull trigger it goes bang.

Additional funny thing is, you replace "Glock without manual safety" with "1911 Cocked & Locked" and I could swear I've seen this argument before. :p


The most important safety is the squishy stuff under your hat.
:evil:

[jc2]

Some of you really need help in understanding the differences between;
Single Action
Double Action
Double Action Only
Safe Action
Nope, but someone really needs help in distinguishing between advertising/PR hype like "Safe Action," "Ultra Safety Assurance (U.S.A.) action," etc. from actual handgun action types SA, DA (or TDA) and DAO.

Anyone that can post, "Glocks are normally carried Condition 0" (cocked with no safety applied) needs a whole lot better understanding of how a Glock works.

[happyguy]

The statement that all one has to do is keep ones finger out of the trigger guard indicates to me that the person has little experience in the real world where nothing is ever as simple as it seems and nothing ever goes as planned.

Regards,
Happyguy:D

[Ryder]

Actually about 70% of leo's use glocks because they are simple

I wonder what percentage of officers killed with their own glocks could have survived if the BG who took their gun away had to do more than just pull the trigger? Certainly not all of them, but most definately some.

ADs are of little doubt to me in comparison to some BG wanting to kill me with my own weapon. I can do alot with a couple of extra seconds.

[BluesBear]

Ryder, do mean like the Arkansas officer killed (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=56269) on Christmas night?

[355sigfan]

Nope, but someone really needs help in distinguishing between advertising/PR hype like "Safe Action," "Ultra Safety Assurance (U.S.A.) action," etc. from actual handgun action types SA, DA (or TDA) and DAO.

Anyone that can post, "Glocks are normally carried Condition 0" (cocked with no safety applied) needs a whole lot better understanding of how a Glock works.
END

Jc2 and I don't always agree but he is right on here.

Ryder manual safety's vs point and pull weapons is a argument with good and bad points for both. Point and pull weapons are simple to train people on and there is no safety to forget prior to shooting. ( a trained shooter should not have to think but not all are trained like we would like)

Safety weapons do add one more protection against gun grabs and it has saved lives. These weapons are also slower into action for the untrained and some officers have been killed because they did not flip their on safe gun to fire.

Personally I can live with either system. Weapon retention training and security holsters have saved more lives than safety's I believe. 25% of cops shot in the past were shot with their own weapons. That number today last I checked is about 12%. 70% of cops carry Glocks so if the safety were a deciding factor we should not have had reduced deaths.

To each their own there is no definitive answer on this subject.
Pat

[cornbread2]

JC is not always right but he is one of the few that does understand gun design. He and I have had serious disagreements in the past and I know if I met him in person we would most likely not get along to say the least but I have to give him his this.

He is one of the few here that understands the difference between SA DA and DAO and know how firing pin locks and other safety systems work. If more of you were like him it would be a much safer world because you would not be carring unsafe guns in public.

These topics are not based on "opinion". Ones "opinion" does not change real world facts.

A pistol either has such features or it does not. The "opinion" of someone that can't even field strip his own pistol to look for himself to personaly see if his pistol has such features has no basis on reality and no place in such discussions.

People can have many different opinions on how the Glock "feels" or how one likes the grip angle or if ones likes the trigger or not.

The vast majority are not qualified to comment of it's accuracy. Only a very few people are capable of shooting handguns to the accuracy level the pistol itself is capable of. Most can only comment on how well they are able to shoot the pistol.

[Sarge]

but the terms "doube action" and "single action" refer to the number of fire control options, and nothing else- unless you'd like to re-write history from the 1850's forward.

This is not to say that new and unique action types were never invented, or that they have no value. It is simply an error, or marketing expediency, to refer to them as double-actions unless they have two fire control options. Call them 'safe action', or 'USA action' or whatever you want- but you cannot change history.

Yes, I know I said I wasn't going to address this topic, and maybe nobody will listen. That's fine. So give me five demerits. But the earth is still round, whether you think you can see the edge of it or not.

[Ryder]

Yes BluesBear that is exactly what I am talking about and I considered posting that link myself.

Glock owners obfuscate the problem by saying revolvers are just as safe. They may be closer to reality if they were to say revolvers are just as dangerous.

I have revolvers and an XD myself. I don't carry openly so it's less of a concern for me, but still something I fear.

[happyguy]

If this thread is about target pistols and training situations where everything is well controlled and there is a range officer to oversee all the nimrods, then I would agree that a Glock is "almost" as safe to handle as a weapon with a manual safety.

Anybody here ever really get their bell rung? I mean, buckling at the knees, seeing stars and puking rung? If you have you might remember that you didn't even know where your arms and legs were, much less your index finger.

I'll stick with something that's got a safety, thank you.

Regards,
Happyguy:D

[44]

It's hard to picture going through a bad struggle with the advice most often given for the Glock:

(1) Finger off the trigger till you are ready to shoot, no matter what.

(2) Do not allow any foreign object to enter the trigger guard. (Don't fight in the bushes, for example.)

(3) Never put a Glock anywhere but in an approved holster ....

(4) If you drop your Glock, let it hit the ground because you might set it off grabbing it out of the air .....

(5) Be real careful how you pick it up, especially in the dark or out of the weeds ...

(6) And so forth ......

When you think it over, it sure seems like the 1911 thumb safety and the grip safety, or the grip safety on the XD, or the Cominolli on the Glock, might come in handy in a rough fight.

But I have never had to go through anything like this myself, so I'm not qualified to judge what kind of gun would be best -- like in a fight in the brush in the dark. Maybe a knife.

[artherd]

44, with a thumb type toggleable safety switched off, which is the first thing you are going to do when you draw it, congratulations, you just made yourself a Glock, except withought the trigger-safety, and you can now drop-fire it.


Just always point it at the bad guys. (or the ground at least.)v and not your best friend, and you'll do fine.

Too many people 'rely' on a safety to protect them from improper gun handling in my opinion.

[JPM70535]

The statement recurring in these threads to"just keep your finger off the trigger and the gun won't go off" is mostly correct. It needs to be ammended to read, "keep your finger off the trigger and it won.t go off, unless some other object contacts the trigger during holstering, snags on your pocket, (should you be foolish enough toi carry it there) or because of the existence of "Murphys Law' which says that if anything can go wrong, it will, in which case the gun will most definitely go off.

Glocks are fine for holster carry, however in the initial post, the circumstances described call for something with a manual safety, not a Glock

[rage]

I want a glock 19 but why cant glock be like the rest of the world and put a manual safety on their guns, this would be a home gun so when I hear a knock in the middle of the night I can throw it in my back pocket and see whos there but with a glock its not really safe to put it in your pocket because if that trigger snags on something its hello new "HOLE IN MY FANNY" . Anyone else not buying a glock for this reason?

Keep the Glock in a holster with a clip or something so you can shove it in your pants quickly and safely...just keep your finger off the trigger!;) OR don't leave one in the chamber...rack the slide if you need to. That should cover your fumbling for the safety time.

[jc2]

You are citing an archaic usage terminology. Current, common usage is pulling the trigger performs the double action of cocking and firing the weapon. FWIW, here is the correct definition straight from the "horse's mouth" (Merriam-Webster Unabridged Dictionary):

Main Entry: double-action Pronunciation Guide
Pronunciation: ||
Function: adjective
1 : DOUBLE-ACTING
2 of a firearm : capable of being cocked and fired by a single pull of the trigger

Sure sounds like a Glock doesn't it?

(BTW, at least you were right about the world being round, however.)

[happyguy]

>>>with a thumb type toggleable safety switched off, which is the first thing you are going to do when you draw it, congratulations, you just made yourself a Glock<<<

Not necessarily so, it's entirely reasonable to draw your weapon without disengaging the safety. Lots of folks do it that way because walking around in a high stress situation with a weapon off safe is dangerous.

Regards,
Happyguy:D

[JShirley]

mastinson,

If Glocks were "like the rest of the world", they wouldn't be lightweight, highly rust-resistant, and emminently carryable due to their well-rounded design. It had been done before, but Glocks really ushered in the polymer revolution.

Each firearm is a compromise. Action, barrel length, caliber, compact, full-size, pocket...we choose based on anticipated needs, and often, budget.

For myself, I have carried a Glock without holster before, whether in a bag or in my waistband. On the few occasions where that has happened, I didn't place a round in the chamber. I personally feel the shorter pull of the Glock's trigger when compared to traditional double-action or double-action-only means loaded Glocks should always be carried in holsters that cover the trigger guard. I have had up to four Glocks at a time, though I found that two (23 and 24) could handle any job I chose a Glock for. I have owned Kel-Tecs for years, as well.

I was, and am, much more comfortable leaving a P-11 or P-40 unholstered, or carried unconventionally. Kel-Tec also sells a small clip that attaches to the frame, so the pistol can be carried without a holster. I have often carried a P-11 this way, clipped IWB. I have seen a similar accessory for Glocks, but I would personally never use one.

To call a revolver unsafe because it goes bang when the "on" switch is used, is pretty silly. I was discussing lawsuits and firearms with a friend yesterday. I told him that firearms makers should not be sued for a firearm doing what it's designed to do- going "bang" when the trigger is pulled.

There are billions of people, with different likes and skills and budgets. Use what works for you, and train well.

John

[Sarge]

It speaks volumes about your credibility.

Like I said "maybe nobody will listen". But the truth is out there, for those care to seek it.

[jc2]

Made up, Sarge?

How about quoted right out of the dictionary?

Credibility? I gave a source. Did you even bother to check ("seek it")?

But the truth is out there, for those care to seek it.
Maybe you should stop trying to be cute and starting "seeking?"

[cornbread2]

DA SA and DAO.

I can't see how it is so hard to understand.

One could eaisly teach such simple things to 5 year old.

Why is it so hard for some adults to understand.

[Sarge]

or at least the standard Merriam-Webster-

Main Entry: sin·gle-ac·tion
Pronunciation: 'si[ng]-g&l-'ak-sh&n
Function: adjective
Date: 1900
of a revolver : that can be cocked only by manually retracting the hammer

According to your flawless reference, it applies to revolvers; taken literally, there would be no such thing as a single-action auto.

I think we all know better, and that there are better sources of reference for firearms terminology, than a a language dictionary.

The definition I cited was established by the firearms industry before our grandparents were born. I note that when Glock introduced his pistol, he did not refer to it as a 'double-action'. He knew it wasn't, so he called it something else. It wasn't until it became apparent that certain LE contracts would only be open to "double action" autos, that there was a movement to re-write the long-established definition, which was set by the industry.

I think you & I have had this discussion before, and it is pointless to waste any more of Oleg's bandwidth debating it. I don't hold for changing the definitions of simple and established terms, to facilitate the sale of a few guns. If you refer to a lever-action as a bolt-action, I'm gonna call you on that one, too.

To the rest of you- sorry, I had no intention of hijacking your thread. I will stand aside and let it resume now.

[jc2]

From the Merriam-Webster Unabridged Dictionary:

Main Entry: single-action Pronunciation Guide
Pronunciation: ||
Function: adjective
1 : SINGLE-ACTING
2 of a firearm : that requires cocking before each shot

Clearly, you prefer the archaic (relating to, belonging to, or having the characteristics of an earlier and often more primitive time) use of the term, but the current common usage is a firearm (not just revolver) that requires cocking before each shot. (Of course, I bet you still call the automobile a "horseless carriage," don't you?)

The current common usage of the term double action is a firearm capable of being cocked and fired by a single pull of the trigger.

So, to be technical and honest (something with which you evidently have a problem), both usages are correct with one being current use and the other being archaic. The Glock is correctly described as a double action (only) firearm, i.e., capable of being cocked and fired by a single pull of the trigger.

If you wish to continue discussing linguistics and etymology, there might be better websites for you. In the meantime, the Glock remains a double action (only) firearms based on the current usage of the term rather than the archaic usage.

BTW, your "history" is totally wrong. The terms "single action" and "double action" were used to describe autoloading pistols long before Glock introduced the G17. The terms were not changed to accomodate Glocks as you imply, e.g., George C. Nonte's Pistol Guide (copyright 1980--well before the introduction of Glock handguns) has a chapter "Double Action Versus Single Action" that begins, "Traditionally, big-bore service-type autoloading have been of single-action persuasion. They had large exposed hammers which required manual cocking for firing the first shot (as in a single action revolver)." The second paragraph begins, "In Europe, Wlather developed the P38 pistol which was adopted by the German Army in 1938--a very advanced double-action pistol." (In the same paragraph, he describe Brno designed pistol that "in which every shot had to be fired double action"--sure sounds like a DAO to me (just like the Glock). So, the common usage of double action to describe an autoloading pistol that is "capable of being cocked and firing by a single pull of trigger" clearly predates the introduction of the Glock.

First you want to rewrite the language then you try to rewrite history--my, oh my, you are ambitious!

[earl_simmons]

Anybody here ever really get their bell rung? I mean, buckling at the knees, seeing stars and puking rung? If you have you might remember that you didn't even know where your arms and legs were, much less your index finger.

But you will be able to remember where a manual safety is... and how to disengage it in time to deal with your opponent?

[JShirley]

Good God!

We all have better things to do with our time than argue semantics. We know how the damn thing works, call it what you will.

Use 'em safely, or use something else. Safely.

Think this one's done.

John