My debate with an anti


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Crow1108
September 5, 2009, 12:46 PM
This happened on facebook of all places. A friend of mine posted that she had just seen Bowling for Columbine, and asked if anyone had any thoughts on it. Here's pretty much how the whole thing went down. Names have been changed.

Crow1108
Yes. I don't believe gun control makes for a safer society.

Cindy
I used to be against guns, til I married a cop. Now I am confused.... Just wondering what everyone else thinks though I know few will want to touch this with a 10-foot pole

Crow1108
Here's how I see it: I don't think the problem lies in objects that are commonly available. The problem lies with how people raise their children, and the values that are imparted on them. I was raised around firearms. I learned to respect them from an early age, and I know what can happen if they are not respected. I also grew up playing videogames and watching "R" rated movies, but I always knew where the line between fiction and fact lay.

I can respect someone's opinion if they don't want to have guns in their house, but I don't believe their opinion should necessarily translate into legislation that dictates what someone else cannot own. In England, where such legislation makes firearms ownership prohibitive, there are still stories of criminals doing harm to law-abiding citizens, and those citizens don't have an effective means of protection. There are evil people in this world, and a documentary produced by Michael Moore ain't gonna make them go away.

Joe
The naivete of some Americans sometimes leaves me speechless/breathless. I take it you've lived in England? Crime is crime and will happen with or without guns. GUN CRIME on the other hand, and shootings and the murder rate is far higher in the US, per capita, than it is in England. Why? Simple. Guns. You've never murdered anyone or shot anyone and you grew up around guns, right? Well, then gosh darn, they MUST be safe/completely harmless. Do you know the figures for people who "accidentally" shoot people? All this is moot, though. You cannot have a serious discussion about gun control with most American gun supporters because they've been brainwashed for generations into believing the bxxxsxxx the NRA and the Republican Party (and certainly some of the Democratic party) have been espousing. "Why, not liking guns (or baseball or hot dogs or RELIGION) is un-American dammit!!!"

Cindy
I knew a Michael Moore documentary would invoke some serious discussion! Thanks guys for sharing two very different viewpoints.

Crow1108
That's right Joe. All of my friends who own firearms and I have never shot or murdered anyone. At the same time, I do not personally know anyone who has accidentally shot someone either.In fact, accidental shootings can be almost completely eliminated if everyone who owned firearms respected them and followed a few basic rules.

And I have never said that owning firearms was American. I did, however, say that I can respect someones views if they don't wish to have firearms in their homes. I just can't respect the views of someone who wants to encroach upon my right to own whatever I want. It's that whole "We know what's good for you, better than you know yourself" mentality I can't wrap my mind around.

Crow1108
As for the "Bxxx Sxxx the NRA and Republican party have been exposing", just read a few news stories. There was one a few months ago about a woman who was raped repeatedly, the guy got off, came back to rape her again, and she successfully defended herself and stopped the bxxxxxx. Some violent, drugged-up scumbag isn't going to be stopped from hurting my family if I join hands with him around a campfire and sing cum-bey-ya, and he's not gonna be stopped from shanking me with a rusty screwdriver if I stop to analyze his childhood.

No, I have not lived in England, but I do like to keep abreast of many news services (and you thought I just read fox news), and the number of news stories about gang violence over there is staggering. I have, however, lived in Japan and in spite of stringent firearms laws, I still saw many news stories about how the Yakuza are still able to bring firearms into Japan.

Thoughts? Comments? I thought it was funny (and pretty telling) how the guy capitalized religion in his part of the debate. We'll see how this one develops over the next few days.

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BullpupBen
September 5, 2009, 01:11 PM
I think you did alright, but personally I wouldnt even bring up anecdotal evidence or "i heard this" just move straight to the facts if you want to seriously convince someone. point out that there are only about 600 accidental gun deaths a year, and that this is dramatically less then plenty of other types of accidental deaths, and isnt even on the top 10 list.

also you should note that the per capita murder rate in the US isnt THAT high, its about 2x our Western European counterparts. however in Israel, a nation with (i believe) higher gun ownership than the US, the per capita murder rate is LOWER than the Western European countries.
if he brings up Japan you should point out that they do not have murders because of the anti-individual and groupthink mentality of Japanese Society, and that as a result of this mentality their suicide rate is multiple times as high as our murder rate. and they dont seem to need guns to commit suicide either.

those are just a few examples of facts you can use, there is an ridiculous amount of information out there, and if analyzed rationally it generally supports our side.
Guncite.com is a good place to go for information, although they obviously have a pro-gun bias.

montess85
September 7, 2009, 08:53 PM
You can't argue with anti gun people.....There arguments are usually emotionally based.....They get that "guns are bad" in there head and they seem to think if you make it harder for law abiding citizens to get them that somehow criminals wont be able to get them even thought they dont follow the current gun laws......

GojuBrian
September 7, 2009, 09:45 PM
http://i699.photobucket.com/albums/vv360/sanchin31/doors.jpg

http://i699.photobucket.com/albums/vv360/sanchin31/guncont.jpg

TOTC
September 7, 2009, 09:58 PM
Crow,

If you wish to end this debate quickly and expose the anti for the bigot that he is, go read this (http://blog.joehuffman.org/2004/12/15/JustOneQuestion.aspx) and then ask him the question posed in that article. Don't do too much of this. :banghead: You'll only end up having to spackle and a trip to the drug store for headache relief.

PandaBearBG
September 7, 2009, 10:37 PM
Interesting, I remember a few years ago I had read about knife and sword gangs because of UK's limited gun ownership laws. Found this in the following linked article

"Up to 60,000 young people, mostly male, may be stabbed and injured each year, the equivalent of more than 160 victims a day, according to a worst-case estimate for knife violence in England and Wales."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1546085/The-vagaries-of-UK-knife-crime-statistics.html

Of course gun crime is higher in the US than UK, guns are abundant and a right here, while the UK is very strict on them. I don't know the stats but I'm guess that violent crime rates have to be similar at the vary least when you factor in population to land ratios.

If someone is prone to violence they are gonna commit violence regardless as this article proves, yes it is a few years old, but the fact remains that is shows guns aren't responsible for violence. Knives can be had anywhere in any shape, size or form and can be obtained by anyone any age. I'd rather stay in the US where guns are registered so you know who has one or who doesn't and of course having a gun to ward of those knife wielding gangs. I bullet in the brain or a slash across the neck still makes someone dead, having a firearm greatly increases the chances for survival and a deterant for the young and old.

God Bless the USA!

slabuda
September 8, 2009, 12:01 AM
http://i699.photobucket.com/albums/vv360/sanchin31/doors.jpg

Good lord what caliber did this guy use?

JackW
September 8, 2009, 12:18 AM
I'd rather stay in the US where guns are registered so you know who has one or who doesn't...

Uh, where in the US do you live that guns are registered? It's certainly not a federal regulation, since there are ways to legally obtain firearms without any paperwork for the Feds.

Doggy Daddy
September 8, 2009, 12:31 AM
Good lord what caliber did this guy use?

I dunno... What gauge is a doorknob?

DD

SuperNaut
September 8, 2009, 12:38 AM
IME comparing the USA to other countries (especially the U.K.) is always a bad idea. Our cultures, traditions, founding documents, founding concepts are radically different than any other country in the world. Also the U.K. is an island with a far, far, smaller population and a far, far, different attitude towards gov't and authority. It would be more of an apples to apples comparison to compare the U.K. statistics to just one of our more populous states, rather than the entire USA.

jakemccoy
September 8, 2009, 01:20 AM
You won't convert an anti-gun person by debating. People are converted by going out to the range, making friends, breathing it all in, shooting some rounds, etc. Occasionally, the intellectual types will find the information and digest it on their own, not in a confrontational debate.

Bruno2
September 8, 2009, 01:41 AM
I was noticing the size of the holes compared to the doorknob :eek:

May have been like a -14 gauge , I dont even think 20mm is that big .

I wouldnt argue with the limey , after all his fore fathers gladly and willingly turned their guns over .:rolleyes:

I saw a documentary on the disarming of England . People were standing in line with their guns outside of like a machine shop and their guns were being cut in half with a circular saw . Dumbest thing that I have ever seen in my life . :(

THE DARK KNIGHT
September 8, 2009, 01:51 AM
I was noticing the size of the holes compared to the doorknob

May have been like a -14 gauge , I dont even think 20mm is that big .


YEAH but was it a JHP? I dunno, the -14 gauge might not be an efficient manstopper, what with only like 26" of penetration and an expanded diameter of like 2 inches

PandaBearBG
September 8, 2009, 01:52 AM
JackW I mean like the serial numbers for law enforcement to use.

jakemccoy
September 8, 2009, 02:34 AM
I reckon slugs or Photoshop will get you them there holes.

Shung
September 8, 2009, 04:57 AM
Bowling for Colombine is full of lies anyway..

9mm+
September 8, 2009, 09:10 AM
Don't argue with a pig. You end up covered in crap and the pig likes it.

I have spent EXTENSIVE time in the UK, and there are many, many, many citizens there who don't like these gun prohibitions. You'll have your antis there, of course, just like you have here. If you find yourself in a debate, however, be sure to be armed with factual data, not anecdotal ones.

The assault rate in the UK is staggeringly high, incidentally. This is nothing to be proud of whether compared to the US or any other country. The US crime rate has more to do with the disintegration of the family institution than anything else. With this unraveling at a precipitous rate, I contend that the crime rate would be much, much higher if there were more gun control laws in place.

Hokkmike
September 8, 2009, 09:24 AM
Despite what the press might say, "It is not high noon in Pennsylvania". 100's of thousands carry and use firearms without incident.

General rules of persuasion:

1. Always begin by finding any common ground you can, ie., rape is bad, protecting the innocent good, guns can be dangerous if handle improperly etc., and etc.

2. Help the person you are arguing against to see that you share a common goal.

3. Do not overtly or strongly mount a direct attack on what you percieve is a persons strongly held beliefs no matter how absurd they may seem to you. It will only cause them to dig in their heals even more. Deal with this stuff later.

4. Define terms, present facts, and give your information in a cool, detached, and freindly manner.

5. There is more, but please DO NOT expect to convert anyone's thinking overnight. People must be made to come to their own realization about the correctness of their own beliefs. This takes TIME.

In any case, we must never give up. And remember, our first and best argument is to be good examples of firearm use.

FROGO207
September 8, 2009, 09:26 PM
Rule #1
Never have a battle of wits with an unarmed man, it will be a shallow victory.:D
Rule #2
When tempted refer to Rule #1 again:neener:

That target must have come from Texas.:rolleyes: I hear that everythin' is bigger there.:D

cchris
September 8, 2009, 11:33 PM
They could potentially be .45 holes...could be a Hobbit's apartment...

ck66
September 9, 2009, 03:20 AM
http://i699.photobucket.com/albums/vv360/sanchin31/doors.jpg

Good lord what caliber did this guy use?

"What business is it of yours...................friendo."
:)

divemedic
September 9, 2009, 08:29 PM
How many times have we heard about how the US has such a high crime rate, and if we only outlawed guns, we would all be safer? Well, that is all a lie, according to UK's daily mail, and a study performed by the British government (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196941/The-violent-country-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html). The violent crime rate per 100,000 residents tells the story:

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/07/02/article-1196941-05900DF7000005DC-677_468x636.jpg

The US violent crime rate? 466

svtruth
September 10, 2009, 04:18 PM
Hokkmike's post.
I'll try to remember it.
Thanks.

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