A Request: 5.7x28, FN lovers


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SHusky57
September 5, 2009, 03:00 PM
This isn't meant to be inflammatory. I'm interested in the PS90 because I'm left handed and it's really hard finding a true ambidextrous rifle out there.

I've thought about a Stag 15L, but I am not a huge fan of ARs.
I realize the 5.7x28 is a compromise round, I just want to know if it performs on par with pistol ammo. It was designed to replace 9mm sub-guns, not the .223 carbine. I get tired of hearing "the .223 is better." Duh, it's supposed to be.

Anyway, my request to owners of the 5.7x28....
If you have access to gelatin tests or data, will you let me know how the SS197 (40 grain VMAX) compares to 9mm?

Please try to get pics or all info possible. There just isn't that much data about the SS197 out there, but that's what available to civvies, and if it does what it's supposed to, might not make a bad HD round to reduce over-penetration.

I know the 5.7x28 doesn't meet the 12" FBI standard. But do you know where the FBI standard come from? Many people cite these academic papers by Fackler and co but never read them. The 12" standard came when a 9mm bullet hit a guy in the bicep, travelled to his lung, penetrated 11.5" and stopped short of the heart.

In other words, the problem was not that the 9mm didn't do it's job, the problem was that the perp was hit in the bicep.

Most Americans are 10" thick, and most taliban fighters are 7" thick. We'll say fat people in leather clothing are 15" thick. Will the 5.7x28 do the job?

The 5.7 is hard to compare to other pistol rounds because it's operating at velocities way higher than traditional pistol rounds, and it's a much lighter weight bullet.

I swear if anyone posts that column of articles on why the 5.7x28 sucks, I will scream. For one, the articles aren't available on-line. For two, I doubt you have actually read them. For three, most of them were written in the early-mid 1990's before the SS197 - and the SS197 is what I am interested in.

And if anyone out there has .22 mag or .17 HMR and some gelatin, why not do some tests with the Hornady VMax bullets. I know they are designed to penetrate shallowly and expand/fragment rapidly, but 7 inches then frag/expansion doesn't seem bad for a HD round at all - especially in a low-recoil platform that allows multiple shots on target rapidly.

I know the caliber wars never end. There are British SAS guys whose 9mm hi-powers worked fine with mozambique shoots. There are American SWAT guys who won't take anything less than a .45.

I know hunter's who say .223 will take down a hog or deer with good placement. I know hunter's who won't hunt deer or hog with anything less than 30-06.

The question is whether the round has the adequate power to do it's job provided you do yours.
I see the PS90 as a precision tool. Light-weight, low-recoil, accurate. The peru siege had 1-shot and 2-shot stops with the PS90. Is this because the round is way better than anything else? Probably not. Is it because it's easy to shoot accurately under stress? Probably so.

So in summary:
.17HMR to .223 test your VMAX bullets, especially the lower weight.
5.7x28 please, please test the SS197.

You are the difference between me dishing out the dough for a PS90 or getting a Stag AR. Well, you, and any other data I can find, which isn't much at all.

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rcmodel
September 5, 2009, 03:07 PM
http://www.brassfetcher.com/22WMR.html

http://www.brassfetcher.com/5.7x28mm.html

rc

Maverick223
September 5, 2009, 03:28 PM
I believe that the 5.7 is the most useless pistol round ever devised (just too small with too little mass)...like rc inferred the energy of the 5.7 is comparable to a .22WM...for a rifle I believe there are also much better cartridges, but the PS90 is a superb handling little carbine with alright ballistics. That said, if you do your job I have no doubt it will be fine for HD and such...I wouldn't try to hunt anything bigger than a coyote with it...and that is pushing it.

I have seriously considered getting one...but in the end I just don't care for the cartridge. I still want them to come out with the PS90 in a larger caliber, then I will pick one up without hesitation. .30 Carbine would be perfect IMO. :)

taliv
September 5, 2009, 04:57 PM
i'm not going to get into a caliber war discussion (i like the caliber, but people i trust have told me terminal ballistics suck, so i sold all my 5.7 stuff off)

but... as for the ps90... i think that caliber in full-auto is super cool. (i.e. p90)
and i think with a 50 rnd mag, it would be pretty cool just pulling the trigger really fast on the ps90. only, you can't do that on a ps90 because the trigger is crap. it feels like plastic, because it is. it's quite long. and you can go get a cup of coffee while you're waiting for it to reset. when i try hammers or doubletap with my old ps90 at the same speed i do with any of my AR15s, the 2nd pull rarely results in a bang because it hasn't reset.

it's still a fun little gun. but it's a toy as far as i'm concerned

taliv
September 5, 2009, 04:57 PM
i'm not going to get into a caliber war discussion (i like the caliber, but people i trust have told me terminal ballistics suck, so i sold all my 5.7 stuff off)

but... as for the ps90... i think that caliber in full-auto is super cool. (i.e. p90)
and i think with a 50 rnd mag, it would be pretty cool just pulling the trigger really fast on the ps90. only, you can't do that on a ps90 because the trigger is crap. it feels like plastic, because it is. it's quite long. and you can go get a cup of coffee while you're waiting for it to reset. when i try hammers or doubletap with my old ps90 at the same speed i do with any of my AR15s, the 2nd pull rarely results in a bang because it hasn't reset.

it's still a fun little gun. but it's a toy as far as i'm concerned

SHusky57
September 5, 2009, 04:57 PM
The SS195 tumbles between 1-4" which isn't a bad place to start tumbling. Total penetration is 9-10", which meets the goal of the 5.7x28 to not exit the body.

SS197 averages about 9" of penetration and expanding to .30 cal.

It doesn't sound impressive, but with 22lr recoil one could easily put 2-3 rounds on target quickly.
I wish I could rent one to help me decide.
I think too many people try to make it something it's not.

Is it a viable 21st century replacement for the M1 Carbine?

I think the majority of the data suggests to me that for $750-850 it wouldn't be a bad purchase.
But for $1500-2000.... I think I should look at other options.
Back to the damn AK or AR drawing board.

browningguy
September 5, 2009, 05:06 PM
My HD weapons include both 9mm and .40 cal pistol, and .223 semi autos. I have to say though that the PS90 penetrating 9" and expanding to .35 caliber or better doesn't seem all that bad. I agree the price needs to come down to under $1k then I would have one also.

Quiet
September 5, 2009, 05:44 PM
AFAIK, first time the 5.7x28mm was actually used in combat, was in 1996, when Peruvian special forces stormed the Japanese embassy in Lima to end a hostage crisis. Result = 71 of 72 hostages freed, 1 hostage KIA, 2 SOF KIA and all 14 MRTA terrorists/freedom fighters KIA.

The leader of the MRTA was reported shot twice in the chest with a P90. Both, 5.7x28mm SS190 rounds penetrated his class 2 bulletproof vest and killed him.
http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/6303/pm200810xb0.jpg



Thread jack.
I'm left handed and it's really hard finding a true ambidextrous rifle out there.
Have you looked at the...
FN FS2000 (5.56x45mm)
Kel-Tec RFB (7.62x51mm)
MSAR STG556 (5.56x45mm)
MSAR STG-E4 (5.45x39mm, 5.56x45mm, 6.8x43mm, or 7.62x39mm)
Steyr AUG-A3 SA (5.56x45mm)

SHusky57
September 5, 2009, 07:02 PM
I don't really want to have a collection of semi-autos. I want one all purpose. The AR gets a lot of points because it can be successfully modded for a lot of different kinds of competition.
Most likely the gun will be put into the safe until zombies come.

Since I only really want one, I want to buy once, cry once.

I've looked at the MSAR, AUG, and FS2000.... if I get a .223, it will be an AR. There is just more support for the platform, more training, cheaper accessories, etc.

The difficulty in evaluating the PS90 platform is the lack of info available. The 5.7x28 is a very specialized round and the PS90 is a very specialized weapon. In the same way that the m1 carbine was made for a specialized purpose so was the P90.

The Peruvians made the P90 look good. For hostage rescue, the 5.7x28 may shine. 9-10" penetration and .30-.40 caliber expansion, with about half the recoil of a 9mm subgun. You're talking about the ability to put lots of rounds on target in a short amount of time, without worry of hitting bystanders - but still able to get deep enough to hit vitals.

I believe they use SS190. For civilians it's SS195 or SS197. I am not sure which load I would prefer or which would be better for HD/Zombie duty.

Some people think the M1 carbine is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Not an extremely powerful cartridge, but it was accurate and lightweight. It's a tradeoff I am willing to make.
I don't need 30-06 power, what I do need is power comparable to 9mm.

If the 5.7 SS195 or SS197 can be on par with the 9mm +p, it's a valid option.
It's just hard, even with the brass catcher pictures to know what to make of it. I mean, .223 isn't really that hard-hitting either.

If you need power you need a 12 gauge or a .308. The .223 and 5.7x28 do tumble, fragment, or expand - but it seems that the modern doctrine (especially in CQB) is to put rounds on target fast and accurate.

I was almost going to run to the store and get a left-handed STAG, but my wife made me do chores and the OU game is about to start. More time to think about it.

So to get to the point - Will SS195 or SS197 reliable destroy zombies with headshots? It's not going to blow people's arms off or have knockdown power. But it seems capable of surgical accuracy and speedy handling, and given that - if put on target, will it do the job?

Thanks for your e-pinions. I almost saved $1000, and now I have to think some more about whether I ultimately want the PS90 more.

Walkalong
September 5, 2009, 07:20 PM
it would be pretty cool just pulling the trigger really fast on the ps90. only, you can't do that on a ps90 because the trigger is crap.You can on an AR57 (http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=90544&d=1231283247). :D

It's a fun range gun, and I wouldn't want someone blasting away at me with one, no matter who thinks it's a pitiful little round, which it might be.

If I was going to pick it or my 9MM AR (http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=89343&d=1229352418) up to defend myself, it would be the 9MM, just cause. I have no proof it is better, but I have more faith in the 9MM round at 1300 to 1400 FPS.

Bad Penny 03
September 5, 2009, 07:37 PM
5.7x28 isn't for me, but if you like it so much just buy it.

This isn't meant to be inflammatory. I'm interested in the PS90 because I'm left handed and it's really hard finding a true ambidextrous rifle out there.

Why ?
Most weapons platforms can be modded to lefty configurations.

taliv
September 5, 2009, 08:17 PM
Some people think the M1 carbine is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

wasn't the m1 carbine around BEFORE sliced bread?

walkalong, yeah, i was going to mention the ar57 when i started writing, but forgot by the time i hit post! geez, my attention span... thx for reminding me

Maverick223
September 5, 2009, 08:29 PM
Some people think the M1 carbine is the greatest thing since sliced bread.The way I see it the .30Carbine is the rimless equivalent of the .357 Magnum...for good or for bad. For me it is just about the ideal HD round, marginal (but capable with good placement) for deer and such. There is about 5 hundredths of difference in OAL...make it fit...I'll buy it! Like I say the PS90 has outstanding handling characteristics...if I was more confident in the round it would be the rifle of choice without question. :)

Bad Penny 03
September 5, 2009, 08:58 PM
Quote:
Some people think the M1 carbine is the greatest thing since sliced bread.
The way I see it the .30Carbine is the rimless equivalent of the .357 Magnum...for good or for bad. For me it is just about the ideal HD round, marginal (but capable with good placement) for deer and such. There is about 5 hundredths of difference in OAL...make it fit...I'll buy it! Like I say the PS90 has outstanding handling characteristics...if I was more confident in the round it would be the rifle of choice without question.

I like the .30carb round. My dislikes of the P90 platform aside (slow mag changes etc,) I'd could possibly be persuaded to buy a P90 in that chambering. I'd prefer a 10mm, though.

I still don't know why they haven't just made a 5.56 version. Who cares if the mag is wider...the Monolith Arms p-12 doesn't seem unwieldy.
There's gotta be a market for them.

Or they could go the other route....458 socom or 45 grizzly win mag with a single column mag.

Z-Michigan
September 5, 2009, 09:25 PM
The 5.7x28 behaves differently than common pistol calibers and is not perfectly comparable. However, I sure wouldn't want to be hit with one. I would consider it a reasonable short-range self-defense choice if you think its other attributes work well for you.

FWIW, I have shot a PS90 and hated the trigger and ergonomics, and found recoil to be surprising for the little cartridge. YMMV.

On the plus side, the cost of FN ammo is coming down a bit, and one or two other companies now load 5.7 ammo. However, if you would ever consider reloading, read all the warnings on 5.7 before you buy one. I have not seen more "danger! danger!" warnings for reloading any caliber other than 5.7x28. It appears that it is incredibly sensitive to slight overcharges or slight bullet seating issues.

SHusky57
September 5, 2009, 09:57 PM
5.7x28 isn't for me, but if you like it so much just buy it.


I've never shot it, I don't know if I would like it. I definitely wouldn't like it if I trusted it to stop a horde of zombies and it had inadequate penetration to do the job.
Also, I like shooting a 22 LR but that doesn't make it a good choice for HD.
Other than e-rumors, it's hard to get objective data on the 5.7, I was just hoping I might find more online.

FWIW, the AR seems like a better option. If I ever want to do 3-gun competition, the extra distance of the AR coupled with the quick mag changes seem like too big of an advantage.
And on top of that, I would pay about half as much.

I've heard the opinions of many 5.7 lovers and haters. I've seen a few gelatin tests and heard a few anecdotal stories. But not enough near the amount of information available for the 5.56 - so I'm just left with nothing conclusive. $2000 is too much to pay for nothing conclusive. FN might pick up more civilian sales if they release some testing on the 5.7 rounds other than FPS and energy (those numbers aren't helpful for picking a defensive caliber, penetration/expansion is more what I want to know).

My thoughts are that FN is holding back because a) the Brady Bunch hates the 5.7 and they don't want it to be classified as a "super-AP death ray" bullet or b) the 5.7 is a sub-par performer.

Jguy101
September 5, 2009, 10:53 PM
If all you need is 9mm power, you should look at the Beretta CX-4 Storm. It has ejection ports on both sides and swappable safety and mag release, so turning it into a leftie gun is pretty easy.

Maverick223
September 5, 2009, 11:55 PM
Or they could go the other route....458 socom or 45 grizzly win mag with a single column mag.Good gawd...recoil would be tremendous...sign me up...I love a nice thumper. :D

If all you need is 9mm power, you should look at the Beretta CX-4 Storm.I have shot both, and like Z-Mich. said (about the PS90) find the recoil to be worse than expected for both...but certainly not bad. The ergonomics of the PS90 were better for me, but the trigger was better on the Beretta. The Beretta is also available in .40S&W and .45ACP if that floats your boat, but I have only fired the 9mm version. Both are fun guns, the CX-4 is better for defense, has a better trigger, and is easier on the wallet. OTOH the PS90 has better handling, shorter OAL, and a higher "cool factor". As much as I like the FN platform I would opt for the Beretta (or something else) rather than the PS90...or wait and hope for a better caliber in the PS90 or [more likely] the release of the [touted to be better (but what isn't)] Kel-Tec RFB chambered in lesser cartridges such as... .260Rem., .243Win., 7.62x39mm, .223Rem., 6.5 Grendel, and 6.8mm Rem. SPC....but you could be waiting for a while...the .308Win. version is just beginning to hit the market (with any real numbers). :)

SHusky57
September 6, 2009, 02:07 AM
If I am going to pay $600 for a PCC might as well put up the dough for an AR.

HGUNHNTR
September 6, 2009, 09:00 PM
The 5.7 is a great round. It does not have any magical properties such as the fabled .308, or .45ACP. It doesn't instantly vaporize an assailant at the sight of the firearm.

I have had excellent success hunting with this round, and I have no problem having it as my bedside gun.

Would a .223 be better choice??????. If you hunt deer with a .223 would using a 30-06, maybe be a better choice......maybe sometimes. The 5.7 is a great caliber to pick on because it is easy, especially for people that read to many gun rags, and believe bad guys shrug of anything under 40 S&W.

I enjoy shooting my 5.7 more than just about any other gun I have, and honestly, thats why I bought it. I find myself target shooting and hunting more than I find myself in gunfights.

PTK
September 6, 2009, 10:11 PM
I own a USG 5.7 and an SBR PS90. I've done ballistic testing (recent, with 10% gelatin, 3.65" penetration with .177 BB at 588FPS) and the SS197 is nothing to sneeze at. 21 rounds out of a pistol is certainly capable of defeating a threat, as is 51 rounds out of the carbine.

For the "exotic" ammo, there's some truly amazing ammunition out there from one company - 55gr at 2300FPS from the 10.3" barrel, 2050FPS from the pistol. Read that again; the carbine is equivalent to ballistics of the M193 from a 10.5" barrel, the pistol is only slightly less.

I feel fine carrying my choice. :)

Bad Penny 03
September 6, 2009, 11:16 PM
I own a USG 5.7 and an SBR PS90. I've done ballistic testing (recent, with 10% gelatin, 3.65" penetration with .177 BB at 588FPS) and the SS197 is nothing to sneeze at. 21 rounds out of a pistol is certainly capable of defeating a threat, as is 51 rounds out of the carbine.

For the "exotic" ammo, there's some truly amazing ammunition out there from one company - 55gr at 2300FPS from the 10.3" barrel, 2050FPS from the pistol. Read that again; the carbine is equivalent to ballistics of the M193 from a 10.5" barrel, the pistol is only slightly less.

I feel fine carrying my choice.

If you like it and it fills your needs , more power too you.

Personally, I can't get excited about a .22 under 3k/3,100 fps.
Let alone straddling 2k.
At least for self defense.

Sounds like a fun plinker though.

Maverick223
September 6, 2009, 11:20 PM
I agree BP 03...funny that the thread calls for 5.7x28 "lovers" and few that posted here (not excluding myself) actually like the round. :)

Bad Penny 03
September 6, 2009, 11:39 PM
I agree BP 03...funny that the thread calls for 5.7x28 "lovers" and few that posted here (not excluding myself) actually like the round.

I know. I don't want to be a jerk, and I want to like the rounds...but I just can't get there.
That said, I'll probably buy 2 of each weapon and end up plinking with them exclusively.

Hey, at least I didn't make fun of the Peruvian guys with the runny mascara.
:D

Maverick223
September 6, 2009, 11:44 PM
I'm with you, great handling little carbine...fun to play with, hunt squirrels, et cetera...well thats about it. :D

PTK
September 7, 2009, 12:16 AM
Don't get me wrong, we all know that a 12ga is the minimum for a CCW round!

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=88781&d=1228576337


...but I still love my 5.7. ;)

Girodin
September 7, 2009, 12:30 AM
In other words, the problem was not that the 9mm didn't do it's job, the problem was that the perp was hit in the bicep.

The problem was it didn't do the job after hitting his bicep. You can not always count on a nice frontal shot, or a shot that is not obstructed, one that doesn't hit bone or getting off multiple shots, etc. That is the point people seem to miss.

The leader of the MRTA was reported shot twice in the chest with a P90. Both, 5.7x28mm SS190 rounds penetrated his class 2 bulletproof vest and killed him.


I have a PS90 and I like it but the PS90 is not a P90 and the civilian version lacks what makes the real deal what it is ie full auto and rounds that defeat body armor. The PS90 is a very fun gun, extremely accurate (my brother shot a jackrabbit from a measured 175 yds with the optical sight), and easy to shoot.

It puts a 40 grain bullet out there at 2000 FPS. My sub 2K will put a 115 grain bullet out at 1500 (and if you tune the loads uo you can do much better). These figures are based on what I have chronographed.

Based on shooting varmints I am not super impressed with the 5.7 round. I have not preformed detailed autopsies but the visual inspection indicates that other rounds are doing more damage. Their is a world of difference between what a the Ps90 does to a jackrabbit and what a .357 mag carbine does. The same can be said for the difference between a .223 and the 5.7. One kills them (although I have seen a few rabbits need a coup de grace after taking a 5.7 never seen that with a .357, 9mm or .223) the others blow them apart.

If some one were going to charge me from across the room with a knife right now I would probably opt for said lever gun or my Sub 2k over the Ps90 and I sure as heck would rather have a real rifle caliber or shotgun.

I do not doubt that the 5.7 could be used to defend ones self and has some very good attributes. However, I have even less doubt that there are much better choices for HD for most people. If the chips were really down why would you want the most marginal choice?

MarineOne
September 7, 2009, 01:39 AM
I own the AR-57 although I haven't done any testing with it. I shoot it because I enjoy shooting it, and because 50 rounds is nothing to sneeze at. Reloads are easy once you get used to doing them, but that's true of all of our new toys, isn't it?

Oh and 2000 rounds for 800 bucks makes for a good long weekend with ammo left over. Not much ammo, maybe a handful ..... LOL !



-K

PTK
September 7, 2009, 01:51 AM
If the chips were really down why would you want the most marginal choice?

That's why I exclusively use an M2HB .50BMG for home defense. Have to be sure.... ;)

MrCleanOK
September 7, 2009, 01:56 AM
SHusky57,

If you're looking for ambidexterous, the AR platform can be made plenty lefty-friendly with an ambi safety, a Norgon ambi-catch, and an extended charging handle latch. If you want a serious fighting gun (which it sounds like you do), I would steer you towards a right-handed upper from a top-tier maker (Colt, LMT, BCM, Noveske, etc.). This will get you some QC/QA procedures that you won't get from a mid-tier maker like Stag, which is piece of mind that is worth it during a zombie apocalypse. Also, should that zombie apocalypse ever happen, you're going to have a really hard time finding a replacement parts for a lefty gun if anything ever breaks. Just something to think about.

For the cost of a PS90 that you can't customize much, you can get a pretty nice AR and feed it some too.

If you're near Tulsa and want to get your hands on an AR that has been lefty-fied to see if you like it I might be able to help you out. Send me a PM if you're interested.

Girodin
September 7, 2009, 02:33 AM
That's why I exclusively use an M2HB .50BMG for home defense. Have to be sure....

ahh the old false dichotomy :neener:

PTK
September 7, 2009, 02:39 AM
Exactly! Someone at last finally realizes that I'm using humor in the form of a completely irrelevant argument! :)

Truly though, even a .22lr is nothing to sneeze at as a defense round - and we all know it. No harm in stacking the odds in your favor, though!

Maverick223
September 7, 2009, 02:46 AM
Not to say that it couldn't be used for HD...just not my choice...and really limited for hunting roles as well. :)

PTK
September 7, 2009, 02:52 AM
I have to be honest, when I bought mine it was mostly because I had the extra cash, the owner made me a great deal (less than $1k), and I love Stargate SG-1!!! :D

rfurtkamp
September 7, 2009, 05:33 AM
Beyond the ballistics and whatnot, it is most definitely a gun to handle to see if you want to own it, even if you can't shoot it at the time.

I desperately wanted a PS90 and FN2k until I handled both - they're just too small for my frame and it makes for a frustrating ergonomic experience.

alistaire
September 7, 2009, 09:18 AM
This isn't meant to be inflammatory. I'm interested in the PS90 because I'm left handed and it's really hard finding a true ambidextrous rifle out there.

LEVER RIFLE. You can find them in any gun shop.

alistaire
September 7, 2009, 09:23 AM
Terminal balistic performance of 5.7 can be found here:
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19913

Eightball
September 7, 2009, 11:32 AM
Is it a viable 21st century replacement for the M1 Carbine?IMO, the M1 Carbine is a good replacement for the M1 Carbine, and between it and my 1911, I'm set for HD :D IIRC, a well-loaded .30 Carbine is somewhere between a .357 and .44 Mag in power, but in a nice semi-auto platform for which you can get 30 round mags.

That being said, the PS90s handling characteristics intrigue the heck out of me. There's a couple companies out there making rounds that seem to exceed the power rating of that one "LEO-only" round, I just forget their websites at the moment.

Maverick223
September 7, 2009, 12:19 PM
Eightball, I agree there is no "better" replacement for the M1 Carbine...at least that I know of, and the best substitute is something akin to a lever rifle chambered for a pistol cartridge. A .357Mag. carbine is almost identical to the .30Carbine with regards to ballistics. I find it funny that many folks will complain about the .30Carbine, but everyone seems to think that the .357Mag. is a magical round. IMO manufacturers need to chamber the .30Carbine in new rifles, not the least of which should be a PS90...other guns that would seemingly be suitable to the cartridge is the mini 14/30 (duh, did they really not think of that?), an AR upper, and perhaps even a pistol (though OAL would likely be an issue). :)

desidog
September 7, 2009, 02:37 PM
I'm a lefty, and thought about the 5.7x28 and the PS90 as well....not too hard though. I have a 9mm CX4 that is configured all lefty, and i love it. My reasoning is as follows: CX4 is cheaper than PS90, ammunition is cheaper and easier to find, the CX4 takes the same mags as my 92FS- which i already had; also the CX4 has very little felt-recoil, and with a 30rd mag i can spool off and hold the sights on target, landing all on the paper in short order.

Both the PS90 and the CX4 are good-handling guns, but if you take them down, the CX4's internals are more straightforward, IMO, and cleaning is easier.

That being said, if i didn't have the Beretta 92FS, i would've gone with the CX4 in .40SW; and if i was an AR enthusiast, i'd probably get an AR57 upper (which ejects down the mag well). I think the numbers for buying an AR and an AR57 upper (essentially 2 guns/1 lower) is commensurate with buying a PS90...not equal, but same ball park....and if you want to shoot more than bunnies at short range, you will have the ability.

That being said, as most everyone on THR can attest, it's always fun to pick up a new gun...and there's always another model to look forward to....so don't necessarily look at this purchase as the last one. Guns are not like girlfriends; you can have more than one and leave them in the same place...they won't get jealous!

I'm sure you'll enjoy whatever you pick up. -Desi

panzermk2
October 31, 2009, 09:56 PM
Here is some of our test data. The 5.7x28 can exceed 45acp+P energy. So the 9mm comparison is irrelevant even more since the 5.7 was requested by NATO as a replacement for the 9mm being useless against armor.

S4 ULTRA RAPTOR
FiveseveN Pistol 2,600fps - 391 Ft-Lb’s

P90 3,053fps - 560 Ft-Lb’s

PS90 3,340fps - 666 Ft-Lb’s

FsN USG Pistol 15 feet

5.7x28 ULTRA RAPTOR 10% 14"x6" gel block test
Control shot: .17cal BB 4.2" penetration
8.5" penetration, with 4.5" cavity measured at widest section.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQuhudjqmiI

FsN USG Pistol 15 feet
5.7x28 ULTRA RAPTOR Level II Vest 10% 14"x6" gel block test
Control shot: .17cal BB 4.2" penetration
Level ll vest shot: 8.0" penetration, with 3.3" cavity at widest section.
Complete separation of the core from the jacket.
The jacket has completely fragmented in to fine shrapnel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmh4vw56Pn8

ProtecTOR
FiveseveN Pistol 2,092fps - 389 Ft-Lb’s

P90 2,538 fps - 572 Ft-Lb’s

PS90 2,762 fps - 678 Ft-Lb’s


FsN USG Pistol 15 feet
5.7x28 ProtecTOR 10% 13"x6" gel block test
Control shot.17cal BB 4.5" penetration
Penetrated all 13", and created 3.3" cavity measured at widest section.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JuvKWckwg8


FsN USG Pistol 15 feet
5.7x28 ProtecTOR level II Vest 10% gel test
Control shot.17cal BB 4.5" penetration
Penetration 9.0", and created 1.7" cavity measured at widest section

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elKgG2W6_N0

browningguy
October 31, 2009, 10:38 PM
Also something to note for lefties is you can put the AR57 upper on an AR lower and then it's good for you too. Ejects straight down through the mag well. Mine shoots pretty decent although it is slightly muzzle heavy with the 50 rounder on top. I don't mind that but some people might not be used to it.

While I have 4 .223 semi autos, and a .50 Beowulf AR to go to first, I wouldn't feel under-armed with the AR57 upper and its 50 round mag.

nwilliams
October 31, 2009, 11:04 PM
I love my PS90 but mostly because I'm a huge fan of the Stargate television series:D

Personally I don't own a PS90 with the intention of using it as a PDW, I own it because it's an interesting gun, very fun and very accurate. However I will say that if the zombie apocalypse ever comes then I'll certainly grab my PS90 before anything else:D

Some people say they are too expensive however if you search around you can sometimes find PS90's for a very reasonable price, I got mine NIB off gunbroker for $1350 and was able to do a local pickup so I didn't have transfer it.

Also people like to complain about the cost of the round which I don't agree with. I can find ammo online for about 37¢ a round. Considering it's Hornady V-Max that's not a bad deal. The problem with 5.7 ammo is not that it's expensive, it's that there is a limited selection to choose from and no cheap Russian plinking stuff like you find in other calibers.

As far as the round goes I know there are better alternatives out there for sure but people have also been debating the effectiveness of the .223/5.56 for decades and there are still people out there that think that round is not an adequate man stopper. Small calibers will always stir up debate when it comes to combat and personal defense.

I appreciate FN for giving us a civilian model of their P90, no matter what anyone says I love my PS90!

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb264/nwilliams27/PS90-5.jpg

panzermk2
November 1, 2009, 12:28 AM
I would take homage and point out that there are many types of 5.7x28.
Here is our current non-restricted product line and brief descriptions.



IlluminaTOR Tracer

Our IlluminaTOR Tracer cartridge is loaded with a bright red* mil-spec tracer. When shot, the bullet provides the same velocity and point of impact as our 55-grain FMJ round, allowing the shooter to accurately adjust his or her point of aim during night fire. We’re so confident in our IlluminaTOR Tracer that we back each and every round with our unconditional performance guarantee. If our tracers ever fail to ignite when fired, simply contact us about a hassle-free replacement or refund.
Elite Ammunition's tracers help keep time on your side. The pyrotechnic tracer compound in each IlluminaTOR Tracer bullet boasts an impressive shelf life of ten (10) years.


QuieTOR Subsonic

Sleek, quiet, and undeniably effective – Our QuieTOR subsonic ammunition is not just the first choice amongst suppressed 5.7x28mm enthusiasts; but also arguably the most effective choice for law enforcement and military operators. When operational conditions call for a quiet response, trust the round QuieTOR above the rest.

Our steadfast commitment to producing truly elite ammunition is reflected in every detail of the QuieTOR subsonic cartridge. Our precision manufacturing process holds individual cartridge tolerances within a mere thousandth of an inch. Such tight tolerances help provide a predictable consistency with each pull of the trigger. Platform-specific powder charges are carefully engineered to minimize recoil, maximize ballistic performance, enhance operator safety, and increase weapon reliability.

It is our strict adherence to quality control standards that allows us to guarantee true subsonic performance from every QuieTOR we sell.

Choose from QuieTOR cartridges loaded specifically for the FN Five seveN pistol, P90 PDW / PS90 SBR, or the PS90 carbine. Combined with a modern 5.7x28mm suppressor, QuieTOR subsonic ammunition

Important Note: Elite ammunition does not recommend or endorse shooting into occupied structures or in areas prohibited by law. Elite Ammunition disclaims any liability as a result of the use of our ammunition.


VarminaTOR

Elite proudly presents the VarminTOR 5.7x28mm high-performance small game round. Assembled using the renowned Barnes Varmint Grenade and propelled by a generous powder charge, the VarminTOR rockets past our chronographs at 2,100 fps* when fired from the FN Five seveN pistol!

The VarminTOR’s unique design balances high speed with match-grade accuracy and remarkable expansion properties. Upon impact, the bullet expands dramatically into small fragments, typically resulting in instant incapacitation. It is also important to note that these bullet fragments rarely exit the animal, avoiding damage to the game’s valuable pelt. Whether varmint hunting is your hobby, your profession, or simply your contribution to pest control, you can depend on the VarminTOR to get the job done!

*Velocity is quoted for the 5" Five seven pistol barrel, add 50 fps per additional inch of barrel


ProtecTOR Personal Defense

When fired from the FN Five seveN pistol, the ProtecTOR reaches 2,400 feet per second and able to impart more than 350 foot-pounds of energy on target. With the use of an FN P90 or PS90, bullet speeds increase by several hundreds of feet per second, outperforming many similarly sized 5.56x45mm weapons.

Astounding ballistic performance makes the ProtecTOR one of Elite’s most popular offerings. The cartridge design delivers the optimal level of penetration against a would-be attacker--while significantly reducing the risk of over-penetration when fired indoors. Gelatin tests conducted with a Five seveN handgun generated overwhelming hydrostatic shock effects and stunning elastic wound channels. The results revealed our ProtecTOR rivaled the stopping power of larger rifle calibers, while remaining safer than most pistol rounds in terms of material penetration and potential for ricochets.

When your family’s safety depends on you, depend on the ProtecTOR from Elite Ammunition.

Important Note: Elite ammunition does not recommend or endorse shooting into occupied structures or on areas prohibited by law. Elite Ammunition disclaims any liability as a result of the use of our ammunition


PenetraTOR Tac-Op

The PenetraTOR is heaviest supersonic 5.7x28mm round commercially available. Loaded with our special 55-grain FMJ. The PenetraTOR has been extensively tested, in the lab and in the field.

Our standard PenetraTOR is the most accurate cartridge in our catalog, capable of sub-1-inch groups at 25 yards out of the Five seveN’s 5-inch barrel*! Out of the P90 or PS90, the 2300+ feet-per-second bullet is more actually than most ever thought the platform was capable of.

Ideal for law enforcement, military personnel, varmint shooters, mid-sized game hunters, and even competition shooters–the PenetraTOR’s performance and versatility will surely leave you questioning how you ever got along without! **

* Accuracy was measured by averaging 3-10 shot groups from a Five-seveN pistol at 25 yards, held in a machine rest. Your results may vary.
** Shot-placement is the most important variable when confronted with dangerous situations and you should not rely solely on the performance of ammunition for your safety. As with all shootings, shot placement is the most important aspect of wound ballistics; far above projectile choice.


X-TerminaTOR Hunting Cartridge

ou asked for it, and we've delivered.
Our most popular "Off Catalogue" cartridge is now available for purchase without placing a special order. The Elite Ammunition X-TerminaTOR.
This cartridges pushes a 45 grain Barnes TSX FB bullet at more than 1,900 fps from the pistol (375 Ft.Lbs of energy), and 2,500 fps from the PS90, which equates to 625 Ft.Lbs or kinetic energy at the muzzle.
Capitalizing on Barnes legendary bullet design, quality control, and terminal expansion, Elite Ammunition has reached another milestone in the war on wildlife with the X-TerminaTOR.
Penetration through 15% ballistics gellatin exceeds 14", from the pistol, and bullet expansion is greater than 50% of the original diameter. From the PS90, the bullet penetrates a full 21" of 15% ballistics gellatin while expanding more than 75% of the original diameter. Weight retention is more than 99.5%, even after passing through bone and connective tissue.
The X-TerminaTOR comes shipped in a 50 round plastic Berry's Bullet box, at no additional charge, protecting the X-TerminaTOR during even the most gruelling of hunts.
Never before has a more effective small to medium game hunting round been developed in 5.7x28mm; again proving that Elite Ammunition truly is "The Result of Perfection."


S4 UltraRapTOR Tac-Op Cartridge VIRGIN BRASS ONLY
Our UltraRapTOR can be described as a hybrid of magnum-power hollow-point and high-speed rifle-caliber FMJ. The UltraRapTOR’s 28-grain hollow-point reaches speeds of 2600 feet-per-second when fired from a Five seveN pistol and match the proven abilities the Colt M4 when fired from a P90 merely half the size.

The bullet’s speed and shape practically guarantee instant target neutralization. When every hit counts, this round delivers. Against soft targets, blunt impact trauma and brutal tissue damage simply can't be found in a similarly sized cartridge. Furthermore, LEO and military specialists may request private copies of our test data regarding effectiveness against body armor.

The S4 UltraRapTOR is quite possibly the fastest and most-effective anti-personnel round ever chambered in 5.7x28mm.

Eightball
November 1, 2009, 01:49 PM
Ah. Mr. panzermk2, and the websites in his signature, are the things I was referring to in my prior post where the 5.7 performance was spectacular.

Girodin
November 1, 2009, 03:41 PM
I'd be interested in testing some of these supped up 5.7 loads. I'd like to shoot them over my chrono and test them on game. I went to the the website and it says the personal defense stuff is back ordered and 8-10 weeks out.

I'd also be real interested to know what the bullet weight is on these loads. Knowing the velocity doesn't really mean much to me with out knowing the how heavy the bullet it is pushing is.

The bullet’s speed and shape practically guarantee instant target neutralization.

:rolleyes:

Maybe in ten weeks I'll try to test some of this ammo. I am still of the opinion that there are much better choices for most people for defensive uses. I love my PS90 but it is not very likely to become my go to gun.

As for out performing short barreled 5.56 weapons. M855 will do 2600+FPS out of 10.5" barrel XM193 can do nearly 2800 FPS. If you go to a bull pup with a 16" barrel that is roughly the same size as the PS90 they are going to be over 3000 FPS. If you use optimized loads you can do better as well.

There are more choices than just a 5.56 as well. An 11" barreled 7.62x39 only loses a few hundred FPS off of a 16" barreled rifle and is harder hitting by a very good margin over the 5.7 rounds listed. It can make roughly 1400 Ft/lbs, over 600 more than the personal defense round listed above (presuming a 55 grain bullet at 2600 fps) Even if we pretend that thing is shooting a 70 grain bullet there is more than 400 Ft lbs difference. Energy only tells part of the story but the numbers are a useful starting point. I love my PS90 but the 5.7 will never match a 5.56 load at the limits of each cartridge. If I were to carry something the size of a five seven pistol i would just as soon have a 10mm to be honest.

Further if one really really wants a pistol that can penetrate a vest a $200 Tokarev will do it with ammo that is a fraction of the price of these 5.7 loads. No need for a $1K pistol and ammo that is $1 a shot.

browningguy
November 1, 2009, 05:37 PM
The only problem with your ad panzermk2 is that none of the ammunition is actually available. Everyone I looked at was either not in stock or not accepting orders at this time.

Walkalong
November 1, 2009, 06:07 PM
My AR 57 is for plinking and having fun. There are other better choices, IMHO, for self defense. Not that a 50 round mag full of 5.7 anything would not be lethal, there are just better choices for me. I have tried a couple of different optics. Right now it has a cheapo 4X NcStar that is actually pretty clear.

AR 57 & latest plinker load - Use that load at your own risk, it has not been tested yet. :cool:

panzermk2
November 1, 2009, 07:06 PM
Well you can thank Bama for the back order.

Supplies are just as BO as assembled ammunition. A problem everyone here has had to deal with for months now. Bare shelves at WallyWorld and when they do have ammo it's 30 buck for white box 9mm.

Grafs, Midway are back ordered even longer on many types of ammo and primers.

Bullets weights and greater detail can be found at the other link. I may have my web guy in the future remove some of the marketing BS and replace it technical specs.

Girodin
November 1, 2009, 08:41 PM
I'll look further, but I checked the link and looked for a while, twice, and didn't see the bullet weight on the self defense ammo. That velocity is much more or less impressive based on whether it is firing a 55 grain bullet or 28 grain one.

It is nice to see someone offering alternate loads for the 5.7 though.

panzermk2
November 2, 2009, 05:46 PM
Here are the specs for 2 of our most best carry rounds. The performance of the 28gr out of the pistol is stunning. There is no sound but these vids were testing vid to show performnce.


Round: S4 UltraRapTOR

Type: 28gr Aluminum Core HP

Application: Law Enforcement Duty round designed to penetrate obstacles commonly encountered on duty, windshields, car doors etc. and still perform on soft tissue after penetration of obstacle.

Capable of defeating 30 layers of Kevlar while still penetrating 8.0 inches of 10% ballistic gelatin"

FiveseveN Pistol 2,600fps - 405 Ft-Lb’s

P90 3,053fps - 560 Ft-Lb’s

PS90 3,340fps - 666 Ft-Lb’s

FsN USG Pistol 15 feet
5.7x28 ULTRA RAPTOR 10% 14"x6" gel block test
Control shot: .17cal BB 4.2" penetration
8.5" penetration, with 4.5" cavity measured at widest section.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQuhudjqmiI

FsN USG Pistol 15 feet
5.7x28 ULTRA RAPTOR 10% 14"x6" gel block test
Control shot: .17cal BB 4.2" penetration
Point Blank Level ll vest shot: 8.0" penetration, with 3.3" cavity at widest section.
Complete separation of the core from the jacket.
The jacket has completely fragmented in to fine shrapnel.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmh4vw56Pn8



Round: ProtecTOR

Type: 40 grain V-max

Application: Self Defense / Law Enforcement / Civilain designed to provide good penetration with fragmentation while reducing chances of over penetration.

Capable of defeating 30 layers of Kevlar while still penetrating 9.0 inches of 10% ballistic gelatin

FiveseveN Pistol 2,092fps - 389 Ft-Lb’s

P90 2,538 fps - 572 Ft-Lb’s

PS90 2,762 fps - 678 Ft-Lb’s


FsN USG Pistol 15 feet
5.7x28 ProtecTOR 10% 13"x6" gel block test
Control shot.17cal BB 4.5" penetration
Penetrated all 13", and created 3.3" cavity measured at widest section.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JuvKWckwg8


FsN USG Pistol 15 feet
5.7x28 ProtecTOR 10% gel test
Control shot.17cal BB 4.5" penetration
Point Blank level II Vest
Penetration 9.0", and created 1.7" cavity measured at widest section

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elKgG2W6_N0

Girodin
November 2, 2009, 07:48 PM
Well you can thank Bama for the back order.

Hearing that makes me happy that Texas leapfrogged them in the BCS:)

panzermk2
November 4, 2009, 09:51 PM
Combat Handguns Feb addition on stands now did an article on the FivesevenN pistol and Elite Ammunition.

MatthewVanitas
November 4, 2009, 11:03 PM
Not to go bringing up alternatives again, but note that MSAR (they of AUG-clone fame) is soon to come out with a blowback pistol-calibre AUG which takes Glock magazines.

http://www.msarinc.com/mcs1.jpg

And good news for the sinister-handed: it ejects straight downwards, so ambidextrous.

The pistol-calibre AUGs are supposed to retail around $999, so the price is competitive to the PS90.

panzermk2
November 8, 2009, 01:57 AM
For two very good reasons.

1st) The P90/PS90 is much smaller and compact modern design, not modern looking.

2nd) The 5.7x28 round that was designed for it. The 5.7 out performs the 9mm so much and in so many ways it's not even a fair comparison.


http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e169/panzermk2/P90/bbe20la.jpg

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e169/panzermk2/P90/32728426646200308221351141sa.jpg

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e169/panzermk2/Guns/fn_tw_p90_r.jpg

Mp7
November 8, 2009, 06:03 AM
i think the concept of the 5,7 is lost in a semi-auto.

It´s an assault-gun ... take a team 6 and storm a buidling
or do house2house fighting ... vs enemy in bodyarmor ...
most likely battle is over
within the 300rds that your team has onboard.

Girodin
November 8, 2009, 11:55 AM
I'll try to post pics but I have an Aug clone and a PS90 they are virtually the same size. Comparing to a P90 is silly since most people do not have the SBR also you ought to use the number for a 10" barrel not a 16" when you talk about performance.

From my experience shooting living things a 10mm round pees all over the 5.7 (factory ammo that I can buy as opposed to ammo I cannot actually buy) when it comes to terminal ballistics.

The .223 makes the 5.7 look silly.

That said unless you have full auto there are much better choices for serious uses which leaves the PS90 in the same realm as pistol caliber carbines, ie just a fun gun. Bulk 9mm is notably cheaper than 5.7 factory ammo and much cheaper than any hot rod loads (that I cannot buy right now anyways which really means they would be no fun at all).

Girodin
November 8, 2009, 11:59 AM
As for modern the aug was designed in the 70s, and the P90 in the 80s so modern is relative and it is not as if the p90 is exactly cutting edge space-age technology

panzermk2
November 8, 2009, 09:42 PM
Girodin


I'll try to post pics but I have an Aug clone and a PS90 they are virtually the same size. Comparing to a P90 is silly since most people do not have the SBR also you ought to use the number for a 10" barrel not a 16" when you talk about performance.


Please try to pay attention the numbers I posted were for the PISTOL


Girodin

From my experience shooting living things a 10mm round pees all over the 5.7 (factory ammo that I can buy as opposed to ammo I cannot actually buy) when it comes to terminal ballistics.




Since you brought up the 10mm and my company also makes it I can tell you that no the 10mm does not pee all over the 5.7. In fact a level II vest will stop ANY 10mm including 10mm magnum.


Girodin

The .223 makes the 5.7 look silly.



And 7.62x51 makes .223 look silly your point? Who brought up the .233? pathetic straw man argument there. The 5.7 is to replace the 9mm


Girodin
That said unless you have full auto there are much better choices for serious uses which leaves the PS90 in the same realm as pistol caliber carbines, ie just a fun gun. Bulk 9mm is notably cheaper than 5.7 factory ammo and much cheaper than any hot rod loads (that I cannot buy right now anyways which really means they would be no fun at all).


Again a pretty good example of you having no damn clue what you talking about. But keep talking it’s fun to read

rfurtkamp
November 8, 2009, 10:34 PM
Since you brought up the 10mm and my company also makes it I can tell you that no the 10mm does not pee all over the 5.7. In fact a level II vest will stop ANY 10mm including 10mm magnum.


To be honest, if I expect to deal with vests in some fantasy scenario, I'm bringing a rifle with a rifle cartridge.

That said, remember you're representing your company here. It's not coming off well - I wouldn't purchase based on attitude alone.

Girodin
November 8, 2009, 11:34 PM
Please try to pay attention the numbers I posted were for the PISTOL

The following is a direct quote from your post you refer to numbers for all three


FiveseveN Pistol 2,092fps - 389 Ft-Lb’s

P90 2,538 fps - 572 Ft-Lb’s

PS90 2,762 fps - 678 Ft-Lb’s

That said, I ought to clarify, when I said "you" it was bad English, I ought to have said, "one." My sole point was that people need to be sure they are making the right comparisons, i.e. if we are talking about the size advantages of the 10" then make sure we are comparing those numbers.

Since you brought up the 10mm and my company also makes it I can tell you that no the 10mm does not pee all over the 5.7. In fact a level II vest will stop ANY 10mm including 10mm magnum.

I haven't shot any animals with vests. Further the effects after it penetrates said animals non kevlar hides is DRAMATICALLY different.

Furthermore you will note I made the comparison with factory FN ammo widely available which does not have the armor piercing capabilities of other 5.7 ammo (which is not available for purchase so it would be pretty moot if I encountered a armored BG right now).

Lastly, if I had reason to believe I needed to shoot people sporting body armor I would not be reaching for my PS90 or any of my pistol caliber carbines anyways. Such a threat would make me desire a more capable round.

I do not think many people on here are going to buy the PC Aug clones with serious defensive uses in mind (and even fewer are doing for Mil, LEO, SWAT purposes) thus armor penetrating capability is really not a dispositive issue for them. If they are they are making a bad choice and would still be better served by a 5.56 rifle than a PS90.


Who brought up the .233? pathetic straw man argument there. The 5.7 is to replace the 9mm

Your website makes comparisons to it repeatedly, so I guess it was you. Here is a reminder.

ith the use of an FN P90 (2,400 fps) or PS90(2,600 fps), bullet speeds increase by several hundreds of feet per second, outperforming many similarly-sized 5.56x45mm weapons.

The 5.7x28 has served as a replacement to the MP5 (9mm .40 10mm) for some users, but so has the M4. When they are both being called on for the same role it is a fair comparison. Since no one here is looking to purchase a gun to serve as a rear echelon, non combat, but better have something and it needs to be small, gun, we can probably exclude that use.

My point is that AUG clone comes in 5.56 in a package that is similar in size to a PS90. If one is talking about using it for serious use a 5.56 round is superior, unlike stepping up to a .308 rifle one would not have dramatic difference in weight, magazine capacity or recoil.

The Aug weighs half a pound more, only holds eight fewer rounds, and just like the PS90 has no appreciable recoil to speak of. It is much louder. It is also faster to reload than the PS90 and doesn't require removing the magazine to view or access the breach. Nor does the AUG have an optic that washes out in day light. The PS90 does have an advantage in ambidexterity.

What serious users (e.g. military, swat, etc) use a 16" barreled semi auto PS90? There might be some, but I am unaware of any. Several use the P90. The P90 with a 10" barrel and full auto capabilities is a very different weapon than its neutered civilian brother. I have used both of them. What serious users are using a semi auto pistol caliber carbines (which is not the same thing as a select fire sub-machine gun)? The argument is that when put into civilian garb there are weapons the same size with much more umph. Calling it a straw man is your best retort? I guess it would be since it is a fact.

As to the .308 I concur it is a superior choice when one wants more power. One could logically say, however that a rifle like a FAL or M1A that weighs 10 pounds and holds only 20 rounds, and is much slower to make follow up shots is a big enough compromise to fore go the extra power. Although you might have a point if I ever get my hands on a RFB:D

Girodin
That said unless you have full auto there are much better choices for serious uses which leaves the PS90 in the same realm as pistol caliber carbines, ie just a fun gun. Bulk 9mm is notably cheaper than 5.7 factory ammo and much cheaper than any hot rod loads (that I cannot buy right now anyways which really means they would be no fun at all).


Again a pretty good example of you having no damn clue what you talking about. But keep talking it’s fun to read


Which part shows I don't know what I am talking about? (BTW cursing is not real highroad and typically shows frustration and makes one look rather inarticulate) There are not better choice for civilians looking for a "serious" use gun than a 16" barreled PS90? Or are pistol caliber carbines best suited to uses other than "fun guns." (I've owned and enjoyed several but they are bested in any serious use from hunting to SD buy rifle calibers) Or is bulk 9mm not cheaper than 5.7 ammo?

If I don't know what I am talking about at least I am not alone. Whether it is my friends who are SWAT, former SEAL, Secrete Service agents (they use the P90s BTW), or private contractors, or firearms instructors, I've never heard one of them say a PS90 was the best choice for serious use. Non have one as their personal go to gun. I have heard a few give scathing commentary.

As to one of us not knowing what we are talking about, I'm not the one that published the following

When your family’s safety depends on you, depend on the ProtecTOR from Elite Ammunition. Stopping power like this is tough to find.

Really I can find it (and then some) in any number of center fire rifle cartridges. Or

Criminals don’t stand a chance against the ProtecTOR Personal Defense round.

Not a chance? Really? I know enough people who have survived gunshot wounds and have hunted enough to know which end of the cow that statement came out of. And then there was this one:

The bullet’s speed and shape practically guarantee instant target neutralization.

Do you honestly believe that? (I guess if it is CNS shot but the same is true of a .22LR) If so I guess we know who doesn’t know what they are talking about. If not why did you put it on your website? It certainly makes you look like a shill that will say anything to push his agenda.

The fact is you are pushing a marginal round for serious uses (such as HD) when you are talking about the 5.7 in a PS90. I understand doing so is how you make money and if you are comfortable with that fine. Just don't expect everyone to agree.

Your ammo looks to increase its capabilities and my hats off to you for that. Telling people that it is practically guaranteed to incapacitate a BG go beyond the puffery of salesmanship it is irresponsible and unethical.

I don't have any real agenda. I own and really like a PS90 (I have shot the 5.7 a lot but it has never given me reason to go buy one). I own various 5.56 rifles as well as various .30 cal rifles as well as various PCCs. I have shot them a lot. I have shot living things with them. I've seen how the various rounds preform. My opinion is not binding on anyone else but I wouldn't stake my life or my loved one's on the 5.7 round even with the additional 400-500 FPS your website claims, when I have rifles that will shoot heavier bullets at significantly higher velocities. Until the laws of physics change I'm sticking by my choice.

But keep talking it’s fun to read

I must admit, that made me laugh.

Girodin
November 9, 2009, 12:07 AM
I'd also think twice about using a v max bullet for SD. It is better suited to shooting cute little varmints, what it was built for. It is used in some of the Hornady tap rounds and might be appropriate where over penetration is of maximum concern, but it doesn't get great penetration.

http://www.hornadyle.com/assets/uploads/223_40_URBAN_4website.jpg

BTW a .223 will easily push this bullet about 600 FPS faster than your claimed result in a PS90. That should give it about 300 Ft/lbs more energy.

MarineOne
November 9, 2009, 12:29 AM
Is there any test data on the 5.7 with the AR-57 16.04 inch upper?

I would be interested in seeing this as I own one.


Thanks.




Kris

gunnutery
November 9, 2009, 01:00 AM
Not to go bringing up alternatives again, but note that MSAR (they of AUG-clone fame) is soon to come out with a blowback pistol-calibre AUG which takes Glock magazines.

And good news for the sinister-handed: it ejects straight downwards, so ambidextrous.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I can't see anywhere in that picture where the MSAR ejects downward.

Back on subject: If the 5.7 is the weak point of the design (obviously debatable) then why don't they also offer it in other calibers? As far as a comparable cartridge size would be the .30 carbine. I have no idea what kind of ballistics we'd be looking at then, but at least it'd be a heavier bullet. I do realize that the .30 carbine round was also a very debatable round performance-wise. I'm just curious if there could be other/better options for the same p90/ps90 platform.

rfurtkamp
November 9, 2009, 04:16 AM
I'm just curious if there could be other/better options for the same p90/ps90 platform.


It'd have to be smallish enough on the power scale to use a straight blowback action, limiting options.

It would have to work around the proprietary magazines, which utilize a rotary feed mechanism, and then still maintain a large enough magazine capacity to be marginally interesting.

Without the specialty caliber, the gun is unremarkable.

Maverick223
November 9, 2009, 10:55 AM
Without the specialty caliber, the gun is unremarkable.Hmmm, me thinks just the opposite...the gun (PS-90) is unremarkable, unless you used a different cartridge (like .30Carbine).

:)

Girodin
November 9, 2009, 06:42 PM
Maybe I'm missing something, but I can't see anywhere in that picture where the MSAR ejects downward.

Neither can I but I can see where the ejection port in the back is. The one pictured has the LH port blocked off since it is most likely running a RH bolt. If we could see the other side I'd wager there is a matching port sans the rubber cover. To the best of my knowledge they did not re-engineer them for downward ejection. If they did the location is well hidden.

panzermk2
November 10, 2009, 02:26 PM
Sorry for the delay, very busy.

Again Girodin you brought up the the .223 reference and then went afterwards to my website.

Yes as a matter of fact the fps IS in the range of the M4. The M4 I might add that is having issues since with it's shortened barrel and the military is trying to address this with bullet weights.


Cutting and pasting website adds. WOW stay away from X-streme shoks web page if the one liner form mine gives you fits.

Again the UAG I bigger and less stream lined. Having a 30 round Glock mag sticking out like like that would be a nightmare for some one moving around or exiting a vehicle. The P90/PS90 has a 50 sittin flush with the body of the weapon. I would really like to see how the AUG would eject downward. I have shot them and checked them out many times so this would be an interesting engineering feet since the mag is in the bottom. That would mean it's ejected out in front of the mag at best. Would love to see that since the P90/PS90 is completely Ambi as IS including iron back sites one both sides of the ring sight version.

Gunnerpalace
November 10, 2009, 02:32 PM
panzer, I heard on another forum a guy by the tag of DocGKR was supposed to do some test, and info?

Girodin
November 10, 2009, 04:01 PM
Again Girodin you brought up the the .223 reference and then went afterwards to my website.

No I went to your sight as soon as you posted your ad of post on here. Seeing as there is a link to it in every post I thnk it would e hard to not say the websight is an incoperated document

Cutting and pasting website adds. WOW stay away from X-streme shoks web page if the one liner form mine gives you fits.

so your companies practices are about on par with xtreme shock (save I could buy their ammo if I wanted to). Further it doesn't give me fits I simply think it either shows extreme ignorance or your willingness to spew BS to make money.

I'd still love to hear which part of my statement showed I didn't know what I was talking about.

willbrink
November 11, 2009, 05:29 PM
Fron Dr Roberts, who does ballistics testing for the FBI and other groups:

"The current 31 gr SS-190 FMJ bullet has nearly adequate penetration, but the wound resulting from this projectile has a relatively small permanent crush cavity, as well as an insignificant temporary stretch cavity. Although the 5.7 x 28 mm penetrates soft body armor, wounding potential is at best like a .22 LR or .22 Magnum. Even 9mm NATO FMJ makes a larger wound--and we are all aware of the awe inspiring incapacitation potential of M882 ball from the M9......"

Cont:

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19913

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