300 load analysis assistance needed w/Range report and pics!


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mickeydim468
September 5, 2009, 03:35 PM
I started this load at minimum recommended powder weight according to 2 reference manuals. They both concurred that the minimum is 66Gr and the maximum is 70Gr of H4350 when using a 165Gr bullet. I used a Speer 165Gr BTSP for this test and made up 35 cartridges for this test.

Load A was minimum, Load B has 1% more than A, Load C has 2% more than A. These three cartridges were used to get an idea where this load will shoot and to sight in my scope. Loads D through K are in 0.5% increases over each load. You can see the actual load weight on my picture of the log [Edit: This is in tabular form] on this link 300 Win Mag pictures (http://picasaweb.google.com/mickeydim468/WeatherbyVanguard300WinMag#) [Edit: Made this bold] It is the last picture of the set.

I shot in this order. D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K. I let the barrel cool for a timed 2 minutes before each shot. Then I let the barrel cool for 10 minutes and then shot in this order K, J, I, H, G, F, E, D with the same 2 minute period between shots. Then I repeated the first order of shooing after a 10 minute cooling period. After that round of shooting, I did the same D through K shooting sequence as the first again with the same 2 minute wait between shots and 10 minutes between rounds.

As you can see the results are pretty clear that no matter what load I choose I have a dead deer at 100 Yards. However there was some clearly better loads than the others. I do have to mention a few things... Load E and J... Load E has 4 shots but only 3 holes visible. (Side Note: I had a new piece of Butcher paper above and below the targets in case of fliers. This paper had 8 to 10 inches of it showing above, below, left, and right, of the target, so a flier would have to be at least 15" off of POA to miss paper entirely. There were no holes from a flier in the butcher paper. The target with H, I, J, & K was to the right of target E, and there was no extra hole there either. I doubt that I missed the paper entirely.)

Load J has 2 bullets touching on the left and 2 holes near each other on the right. The holes touching on the left were good shots and the 2 shots on the right were fliers. I pulled both of those shots, so I will need to re-do that load to see how it shoots.

I have marked the loads with the best measured results with an * to the left of the weight for that load on my log. Do you agree with me that these loads are the best, and from here, how do I go about determining which load, out of these with the *, are actually the best?

Thanks for your help!

Mikey!

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Grumulkin
September 5, 2009, 04:00 PM
The way you have presented your data isn't very readable (paragraphs would be nice) and is presented in a confusing manner (table form would help). That said, I would have several comments:

1. It's entirely possible for 2 bullets to go through one hole. You sometimes have to look at a target carefully to see that one hole is a little larger than the others or isn't quite round. This could explain your "missing" bullet.

2. I'm not quite sure why you're increasing your loads based on percentages. I would probably load groups of 3 cartridges in 1 grain increments initially and then 0.5 grain increments when approaching maximum loads.

3. Your letting the barrel cool 2 minutes between shots and 10 minutes between rounds is very compulsive and probably unnecessary.

4. In looking at your target photos, I'd have a hard time determining which load was best. I don't see a clear winner and I don't believe you say what range you're shooting at. Once again, presentation of the data in tabular form with the powder weight and the center to center group size would make data analysis easier. But, back to your question, the best load is the one that consistently gives you the smallest groups size. The data has to be repeatable to be meaningful.

mickeydim468
September 5, 2009, 04:49 PM
(paragraphs would be nice)

Sorry, I didn't know that grammar and proper sentence/paragraph structure was a pre-requisite for posting on THR. However, if you think it is better to go back and put it in paragraph form, I will surely do it. I went in and changed it to paragraph form and you are correct. It is easier to read. Thanks!

Once again, presentation of the data in tabular form with the powder weight and the center to center group size would make data analysis easier.

As noted in my original post there is a picture of my data in tabular form of shot groups with load weight and load measurements from center to center on the picture page. As mentioned it is the last picture on the page.

It's entirely possible for 2 bullets to go through one hole.

I know this... I just wanted everyone to know that there was 4 shots with only three holes. It seems that the bottom left hole in the picture for Load E does seem larger and not so round, but then again so does the top left hole, so I am not sure where it hit.

Your letting the barrel cool 2 minutes between shots and 10 minutes between rounds is very compulsive and probably unnecessary.

I did this because the barrel was getting hot with shots I took to center the scope, so I gave the barrel time to cool between shots to maintain a relatively equal barrel temperature for each shot, so that heat was not a variable. Also, it was a cool day and the heat was rising above the barrel making it hard to see clearly through my scope.

mickeydim468
September 5, 2009, 07:20 PM
I shot at a range of 100 yards. I forgot to mention that too!

counterclockwise
September 5, 2009, 08:02 PM
I am going to go with "H" for the win.

Are you working this up for hunting purposes?

Seedtick
September 5, 2009, 10:47 PM
Hey Mickey, Looking good. I like H too but E ain't bad. Keep playing with them.

Did your boy want to shoot the big .30 cal. any?

ST

mickeydim468
September 5, 2009, 11:15 PM
Yes I am working these up for hunting purposes. Elk, Black Bear and maybe even Deer.

Hey ST,

No my boy had found a new interest... Her name is Kyla! LOL He is 15 now, so I completely understand. ;)


I know "H" looks good, but how do I get it to be the clear cut winner? I sort of like the looks of "I" too! Its almost as small and square. I do need to re-shoot "J" though. I think "E" is out because the load is pretty light for hunting. But I think that's why CCW asked if it was for hunting. I figure I will need to work on bullet seating depths next, with loads H, I & J. What do you think?

Seedtick
September 5, 2009, 11:34 PM
... Her name is Kyla! LOL He is 15 now


Yep, you're on your own for a few years. :cool:

ST

jfdavis58
September 6, 2009, 12:02 PM
So, is this thread still 'going'. What did you decide?

I looked at the targets and don't think I would draw any positive conclusion. About 80 or 90 rounds into a small stack of commercial 300 Win Mag ammo mine settled and began shooting predictably. After about 150 rounds it turned out I could keep 5 to 7 consecutive shots on a quarter at 100 yards. You have one or two shaky claims to this type of repeatability--that's not much to draw a conclusion.

There are a lot of un-asked and un-answered question about this 'testing', starting with case prep. Are you interested in continuing the discussion?

Walkalong
September 6, 2009, 01:25 PM
There is no jump out at you clear winner, but assuming no wind problems or shooter error, H & I are in the neighborhood. Tweak from there in .1 or .2 Gr increments.

I agree that changing powder weights by percentage isn't the way to go. Pick a start load, increase in .5 Gr increments and tweak from there when you pick one of those.

One good group means nothing. If you shoot loads A, B, & C three times and Load B shoots significantly better all three times, then you are probably on to something.

For the average shooter, just shooting one group with each load one time is almost meaningless. Only you know how well you can judge a load from one outing.

And as you stated, all those shots are in a deers kill zone, so heck, how well does it need to shoot. That looks good enough, unless you just want better, which should be achievable. :)

243winxb
September 6, 2009, 06:20 PM
I figure I will need to work on bullet seating depths next, with loads H, I & J. What do you think?I would load 69.5gr and try different OAL. 1. Try with the full bearing surface of the bullet at the neck shoulder junction, or in other words, the full diameter of the base of the bullet, not the boattail. 2. Then seat some just off the rifling. 3. Seat these in the middle of 1and 2. This will give you 3 different OAL's to test. Your brass will last about 3 or 4 loadings IMO.

mickeydim468
September 6, 2009, 07:07 PM
Yes I still want to discuss this. As for the percentage. It was 1% or .6 grains up through load "C" and then .3 gr up through maximum until I reached 70.3 which is .3Gr above max.

There was no wind that day as it was the calmest day I have had at the range. As for shooter error, I did have 2 distinct fliers that I called before even looking at where they hit the target after the shot and those were the 2 shot on "J" target that are to the right. I was the only one at the range and had no distractions. I had no coffee that day and was relaxed during the shooting exercise. I controlled my breathing and took a few breaths and exhaled half and then squeezed the trigger. I had installed a precision Limbsaver recoil pad so the recoil was not an issue. It feels like my 30-06 now in the recoil area. I took great care to be as precise as I could with each shot and I think I was as accurate as the gun/load would allow.

One of you asked about case prep. What would you like to know?

243winxb
September 6, 2009, 07:57 PM
Moving the rest or sand bags after each shot is a bad idea. Shoot all shots for 1 load on the same target, then move your rest/sand bags. This way your rifle will not have to settle into the the bags different each time. Make sure you sling is off, and the studs do not hit anything on recoil. Sometimes a rifle may shoot better groups if you grip the forarm with your hand, and rest your hand on the front sand bag, without using a rear bag.

mickeydim468
September 6, 2009, 10:35 PM
I don't use a sand bag to shoot from. I have a rest that is rubber coated. As for shooting in the order I described [and using percentages], I used the ideology found here: Dan Newberry's Optimum Charge Weight Load Development Website (http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/#/ocw-instructions/4529817134) [I couldn't use 2% and 1% like he recommends, so I used 1% and 1/2%]. Maybe this will explain some of the ideas I was trying to figure out here with you guys. I am not a writer and maybe haven't been clear enough, but maybe this website can explain it for me.

Let me know if you still have questions about how I am doing things.

Thanks!

jfdavis58
September 7, 2009, 09:43 AM
Regardless of recoil reduction devices, if you're crazy enough to tackle a 300win mag load development, I'm just gonna assume you know how to shoot a high power rifle. I've got both mechanical rests and sandbags, they work about the same. I'll wade through your data, however presented, just 'cause I'm interested.

I'm very interested in your case prep and before that your die setup. And probably the 'why' of your bullet selection. I'm familiar with Newberry's method-lot's of flourishes and rig-a-ma-roll but he does have his followers. That's what happens with statistic junkies.

Start with any commercial loads you shot, any chronograph set-up and use and just do a 'core dump' of the whole experience; I'd like to compare it to mine so I'll share as much as you do.

mickeydim468
September 7, 2009, 10:53 PM
I will go through the whole process of making a single cartridge for you in a step by step manor, the way I make a cartridge.
Step 1:
I remove the spent primer and neck size the case using the neck sizing die that came in the Lee Deluxe Rifle die set.
Step 2:
I clean the primer pocket with the Lee Primer pocket cleaner.
Step 3:
I use the case sizing tool with a cordless drill with the proper .300 Win Mag guage.
Step 4:
I use the case de-burring tool inside and out and then measure the case for length.
Step 5:
I measure the powder using a Webster Oil dampened scale that has been tested for accuracy to 1/10th of a grain.
Step 6:
I use the bullet seating die form the Lee Deluxe Rifle die set to seat the bullets to the chosen length.
Step 7:
I use the Lee factory crimp die to crimp in the bullet.

That's it in a nutshell. I do use a bit of steel wool to clean up the outside of the brass in step 3 too. I forgot to add that.

I do not have a case tumbler yet and I also do not have a chronograph. This is the first load I have ever tried to develop for this rifle as it is only 2 weeks or so old. I don't find that shooting it is much different than shooting my 30-06. I am a big man, so it doesn't seem very big to me IMHO.

The bullet of choice has its reasons behind it and they are two fold. One I wanted a large enough round for Elk and at the same time, not be too big for deer. Second, the boat tail 165Gr was the only one in stock that size at the time I was at the store. In a perfect world they would have had the 165Gr Hot Core or the Grand Slam, which is what I would have preferred to have. I am fairly new to reloading and figured working up a load even with these particular bullets would give me some much needed experience and I find doing it very enjoyable.

I still need assistance. I have not chosen the best of the best yet. Partly because I don't know how to. If I need to do something differently then please let me know. I would really like to start by using the data I have now, but if I need to start from scratch, I will do that too. Is there any way to narrow it down from here with the data I have now?

Thanks!

243winxb
September 8, 2009, 03:22 PM
I would load and test 5 rounds with FLRS die,not the Collet die. No FCD. No crimp is needed if the flrs die does its job correctly. 69.5gr H4350 , seat the bullet with the full bearing surface of the bullet at the neck shoulder junction, or in other words, the full diameter of the base of the bullet, not the boattail. Hunting ammo should always be FLRS imo. How do you know your over crimping with the FCD, you dont till you pull a few bullets.To much FCD ? How will the brass case neck look after a few loading? Click for larger pics. http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/th_LeeFCD.jpg (http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/LeeFCD.jpg) http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/th_LeeFCD-1.jpg (http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/LeeFCD-1.jpg)

mickeydim468
September 9, 2009, 10:23 PM
Sorry it's been so long since I replied. Been busy with work.

I will load 69.5 Gr of H4350 in full length sized once fired brass and seat the bullet to .30 as measured from the fat part of the boat tail towards the lead tip. Then I need to go shoot it.

Should I work up any other charge weights using this method as a comparison to this charge weight?

TEXAS
September 10, 2009, 01:25 PM
Pick the best 3 or 4 loads and load a box of 20. Shoot 5 of each load at a different target. On another day shoot 5 more of the same load at the same target. When you are done you will have several 20 shot targets with one load on each. This approch will tell you ALOT.

243winxb
September 10, 2009, 03:33 PM
should I work up any other charge weights using this method as a comparison to this charge weight? Depends how far the drive to the range is. I would shoot the 5 for group, if under 2" @100, i would go with that. You could shoot 5 of you "H" load using the same loading methods when u loaded them before and compare. You can neck size only as long as the brass will fit the chamber, but check the cases for fit before adding powder and seating the bullets.

mickeydim468
September 10, 2009, 06:24 PM
Depends how far the drive to the range is.

The drive is 60 miles each way, so i will need to take as much of each load to test as possible.I've got 60 bullets left and a pound and 3/4 left of this powder. I have 85 brass cases (20 are new never fired Winchester empty brass cases) so lets work up a batch that I can pull the bullets later if needed. I don't mind making them to just pull them. I enjoy the work.

Give me some parameters which would definitely disqualify a load. I prefer less than 1.5" at 100 yards not 2". 1" would be ideal. I can do both full size and neck sized. I have not had any issues so far with being able to cycle the cartridges with only having neck sized the brass. But I always run them through ahead of time to be sure even for range visits.

I have a scale set up that I use for the FCD so I do not crush the case or bullet, yet still give it a crimp so that the bullet is not as loose as if it were only neck sized. I do not think I will be worried about your issue with the Crimp on the case and bullet. I use 28lbs of downward pressure and the front side of the handle on my press and this gives me just enough to accomplish this without damage.

It is simply a fish scale with a small rope and handle like a lawnmower pull start handle. It works great!

mickeydim468
September 11, 2009, 07:22 PM
Hey, Where did the posts from yesterday and this morning go?

There was one from DAN CARROLL yesterday and I replied to him today, and now they are gone.

Weird!

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