[alan]

what started the fires??
http://www.sierratimes.com/03/10/26/ap_ca_fires.htm

Wind and drought conditions can certainly aid fire spread, but what started the fire(s). I certainly don't know.

[BenW]

Unfortunately for the hunting community (if the story turns out to be true), the worst fire was started by a lost "hunter" and I use the term loosely. Hunters everywhere will get a black eye because someone with no or minimal survival skills decided that a signal fire in an area popular for camping (and thus potentially a bunch of other "signal" fires -- how's a plane supposed to know the difference?) during the driest part of the year was a good idea.

Hints for nimrods:

* Learn how to use a map and compass
* Carry a GPS
* Since it's rifle season, fire three shots
* Personal Locator Beacon
* If all else fails in most of the lower 48, start walking in a straight line. You'll hit civilization in 30 or 40 miles max (less than half that where this incident took place)

[4570Rick]

One idiot hunter and several arsonists.:banghead:

[Jeff White]

Fox News was reporting that arson was the cause of some of them. The LA mayor was on warning that METRO would be patrolling the foothills and that you should stay out of them unless you had business there.

Jeff

[dhoomonyou]

take your pick:
osama
saddam
gray davis.

not to make light of a VERY SERIOUS situation, (I have family there)
This points out how very open we are to an internal terrorist attack, and not just from hijacked jets.
Coincidence that this is also the beginning of Ramadan?

[Brian Dale]

Could very well be. My guess still follows Hanlon's Razor, though: "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity." And a slight shift: arson isn't necessarily politically motivated; there's no shortage of creeps in any large population. Could it happen? Of course.

{EDIT: making this addition, because this post of mine is sloppily expressed: if I've read correctly, they're sure of some arson, and they suspect that some hunter(s) got sloppy, too. Right? My "Hanlon's Razor" remark was written thinking that terrorism's plausible but there's no official suspicion of it at present.}

[alan]

Last I heard, hunter involvement is a possibility, or suspected, not proven. Lack of proof has never disturbed the media types though.

[Malone LaVeigh]

Hunters are getting a lot of black eyes this year. I'm still working on a fire that started over a month ago that was apparently started by a hunter's escaped campfire.

One of these days, I'll try to compose my thoughts and give a report of being on a fire on the first day of deer season. A lot of our brethren did not give us a good name.

[shooten]

Well, as someone who recently returned to his evacauated home in San Diego, I've heard the "lost hunter" stories. It sounds really convenient to me. It used to be that around here, the "authorities" will charge this guy if he/she's responsible for the Cedar fire. So far, nothing. We'll see.

This fire covered 30 miles in a little more than 6 hours. I won't make any bets on its origin. The thing that really pi$$e$ me off is that my neighborhood burned without air support. The guys on the ground did a great job given the circumstances and have my thanks and salute. We did not see an air tanker for hours before or after the damage was done.

My wife and I know people that have lost their homes to this fire. We were lucky in that we chose this house with fire and it's consequences in mind. Please say a prayer for those that weren't as fortunate.

Scott:fire: :fire: :fire:

[Desertdog]

http://www.sierratimes.com/03/10/27/ar_ca_fire2.htm
CA Fires: And now for the REST of the story.....
By John Stewart

San Diego County instituted the first Multiple Species Habitat Conservation Program (MSHCP) in the nation about 10 years ago.
The MSHCP was supposed to provide "islands of connected habitat" to "preserve a rich diversity of sensitive flora and fauna". By some counts, San Diego County has the highest number of plants, animals, birds, and reptiles in the threatened and endangered species list.

The corner stone of the MSHCP is (or was) the Mission Trails Regional Park. This "park" connected pocket of habitat from the mountains to the coast. This same "park" is the corridor that allowed the fire to progress rapidly through residential and industrial areas; claiming untold millions in property damage and human life. While this news report cites eight deaths due to the fire, updated reports have attributed eleven deaths.

The grand MSHCP "perserve" is now charred lands.

Of note, the fire fighting capacity of San Diego was seriously diminished as many fire fighting unite from San Diego County were sent to fight the equally devastating fires in the Los Angles-Riverside-San Bernardino area. That area received aggressive fire fighting capability to keep the fires out of the draught stricken forests that are full of beetle killed trees.

The forests were under a delayed fuels reduction program that has been delayed by the preservationist groups.

So, on two fronts, preservation minded actions have resulted in millions of dollars in property damage and loss of human life.

When is enough enough? When is reason and sanity going to prevail over the insanity of preservationists?

[O.F.Fascist]

How about ELF, or maybe the Japanese finally figured thier balloon bombs would do better in SoCal than in the Pacific NorthWest.

In a thread on another forum I vist someone mentioned something about Gray Davis not doing enough to stop the fires because he is on the way out, and most of the people who live where the fires are were most likely to have voted against him. Pretty strong accusations, but what do you people living in California think of that, is that something he would do?

[tiberius]

but what started the fire(s). I certainly don't know

It's Bush's fault of course. "Bush lied, people fried" will probably be the new slogan. :rolleyes:

[TheeBadOne]

Hear more bitching today that "It's all a hunters fault". :scrutiny:

[10-Ring]

Arson & carelessness started these fires.

To intentionally set a fire in areas so primed to burn cannot be looked at as anything other than terrorism...domestic or otherwise!:cuss:

[Double Naught Spy]

Fires happen every year. In the last 25 years or so, there have been numerous record fire years in different parts of the country. The current fires aren't any different than any other year other than they are doing more damage this time and so it is another record.

Fires start by a variety of means that are inclusive of arson, accidents (overheated wheel bearing on train car spraying sparks, for example), idiot unintentional acts (cigarettes, burning trash, or the alledged lost hunter stories), and nature. Nature events can be as subtle as dew drops concentrating sunlight on dead foliage as could be done with a magnifying glass, lightning strikes, and even spontaneous combustion via heavy accumulations of leaf litter understory that essentially composts in place, generates too much heat, and combusts. Even during dry periods, morning dew can be present, or similarly, a drop of sap from a tree can focus light as well.

As for the possible terrorist connection. I doubt it. There are no goals being attained by burning the forests. The impact on economy, travel, etc. is not huge relative to the scale of the USA. The comparable attack would be like an adult human being pecked by a duck on his cowboy boot. Not much would be attained but attacking the trees.

I would be more inclined to believe that rival marijuana farmers tried torches one another's crops on public lands than believe that the fires are by terrorists.

[Pilgrim]

The thing that really pi$$e$ me off is that my neighborhood burned without air support. The guys on the ground did a great job given the circumstances and have my thanks and salute. We did not see an air tanker for hours before or after the damage was done.

Aircraft water bombers are expensive assets to own and maintain. Last fire season a couple of water bombers were lost when their wings failed. I wouldn't be surprised if this year's fires found the Department of Forestry short of water bombers because of those crashes and California's budget problems.

Pilgrim

[Sisco]

He was so upset.
Back in '77 I was stationed in San Diego and a bunch of us decided to go camping. I believe it was in the Lake Otai (sp?) area, all the campgrounds were full. We found a spot off the road where someone had built a nice fire ring out of rock and decided to make camp there.
Had a small fire going and was about to cook up some hot dogs when a park ranger in a really bad mood pulled in. He started ripping us a new one about setting fires, every time there was a problem it was some damn sailors etc.
Now all of us were experienced campers and we thought the place looked pretty safe; fire ring and nothing but green vegetation all around. He pulled off one of the "green" limbs and tossed it on the fire. Went up like gasoline.
He starts talking about $500 fines each (we only made about $300 a month) and possible jail time.
He said we needed to get the fire out and headed towards his truck to get something to do it with. We beat him to the punch, had two ten gallon water cans and a shovel in our vehicle and had the fire pretty well out before he got back. Must have impressed him a little, we got off with a warning. Had to eat cold hot dogs though.

[Mike Irwin]

Reptilian Aliens distributing the new $20 bill...

[DaveB]

When I was doing fire supression for a living, we used to have contests to see whether we could spot the tree that had been struck by lightning - the one that started the fire. Sometimes we found it (spiral path of bark missing - blown off by the bolt - from top to base, 4-8" wide), but most times not.

Could be arson, could be stupid campers (hunters or other), could be a cigarette thrown out of a car window, could be atv, could be anything.

Al Quaida? Ahnold? Tin Foil Hat?

db

[shooten]

Well it looks like they've charged someone with setting an illegal fire but they're not sure if he's responsible for this mess.

Scott

Fire Suspect Story (http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/fires/20031027-2327-start.html)

October 27, 2003

The U.S. Forest Service is trying to determine whether a hunter's signal fire ignited the largest wildfire in San Diego County history.

Sergio Martinez, 33, of West Covina was released after being given a misdemeanor citation for setting an unauthorized fire in Cleveland National Forest on Saturday, the same day the Cedar wildfire began. The investigation remains incomplete because flames are blocking access to the site.

Martinez was questioned about the fire after he was rescued by helicopter from rugged terrain south of Julian about 6:20 p.m. Saturday.

Michelle Sarubbi, the Forest Service officer who cited Martinez, refused to comment on whether he faces more charges.

"In order to do a thorough and exact fire investigation, you have to rule out everything that didn't start the fire to find out what did start the fire," she said. "We can't jump to conclusions."

A spokeswoman for the U.S. Attorney's Office would not confirm that Martinez was being investigated or answer questions about whether criminal charges might be filed. She would say only that someone had been questioned and released in the investigation.

Attempts to reach Martinez for comment were unsuccessful.

Saturday, authorities began the search for Martinez after a friend who was hunting with him called for help.

According to sheriff's Deputy Dave Weldon, who piloted the rescue flight, the two men were deer hunting when Martinez wandered off. After 11 hours without food or water, Weldon said, Martinez apparently started a small fire to signal for help.

Weldon spotted smoke and then a fire covering about 50 square yards of scrub brush. He said Martinez was waving from the top of a small rocky mountain, just upwind from the blaze. The mountain was about a mile south of Eagle Peak Road and a few miles east of San Diego Country Estates.

Weldon said Martinez was delirious and couldn't walk, so Weldon and his partner, Deputy Rocky Laws, dragged and carried him back to the aircraft.

While lifting Martinez into the helicopter, Weldon said, Laws asked Martinez if he had started the fire.

"He said, 'No . . . I'm sorry. I'm sorry about all of this,'" Weldon said. "He was basically delirious."

"I asked him what he started it with, and he wouldn't comment," Weldon added. "He just remained quiet."

"Then he said: 'I thought I was going to die out there. Thanks for saving my life.'"

Martinez was treated for dehydration.

Sheriff Bill Kolender reported early Monday that federal officials had arrested someone for starting the fire and said the man was in custody. Later in the day, a spokesman for Kolender said the man had been "cited and released" and had not been arrested.

[KC]

I dunno...I liked the scattered areas of enforced non-development. ("I'm sorry, no. You cannt build another 4000 homes here because there is a nesting site for the incredibly endangered Spotted Long-feathered Ground Nesting Owl.") The thinking behind it was wonky, but that's to be expected of enviro-facists.

In Scripps Ranch (140+ really expensive homes lost), a lot of the problems came from Home Owners Associations that were preventing people from removing the really big Eucalyptus trees looming over their property, or thinning out some of the amazingly dense thickets of Eucalyptus to create a decent firebrake. Another problem came from the complete lack of interest, or ability from either the HOA's and/or homeowners to do any maintainence on the grove they used to live in, which meant that fallen and dead trees sat there until they dried to a husk, and got covered up with masses of dried leaves.

[4570Rick]

One of the San Diago fires is confermed started by hunter. At least 5 of the other 10 fires in So Cal are confermed arson.:(

Toll now stands at;

18 Dead

1600+ homes gone

1100+ firefighters on the line

550,000 acres burned

$ 2,000,000,000+ the most expensive disaster in Cal history.

I have 5 family members and 4 friends in close proximity to the fires.

For those not opposed to prayer, this would be a good time to say a few.
They will be appreciated.

[fallingblock]

"In Scripps Ranch (140+ really expensive homes lost), a lot of the problems came from Home Owners Associations that were preventing people from removing the really big Eucalyptus trees looming over their property, or thinning out some of the amazingly dense thickets of Eucalyptus to create a decent firebrake. Another problem came from the complete lack of interest, or ability from either the HOA's and/or homeowners to do any maintainence on the grove they used to live in, which meant that fallen and dead trees sat there until they dried to a husk, and got covered up with masses of dried leaves.
************************************************************


The same factor contributed to the huge loss of property around Australia's capitol Canberra last year.

People who built homes to be "close to nature" discovered first hand that Eucalyptus does not make a nice neighbour in a fire-prone area.:eek:

Do you know if the Eucalyptus trees involved in the Scripps Ranch fire were 'lemon-scented gums", or "river red gums", or another species?

[Waitone]

Fact--it is dry out there
Fact--its been 10+ years since the last time Cali burned
Fact--Cali periodically burns
Fact--enviro laws allow dead wood to build up

<Firmly afix tinfoil hat>
Australia linked an outbreak of fires to AlQaeda last year

France last year had an uncharacteristic outbreak of fires which is now suspected to have been arson.

Curious--the fires seem to surround the LA basin.

<Remove tinfoil hat>

Most likely the fires were caused by weather, stupidity, government, and bad luck.

[ARperson]

The thing that really pi$$e$ me off is that my neighborhood burned without air support.

Gotta question about that. Was talking to my better half this evening. Seems he heard on the radio today that California has access (if not ownership) of at least 2 C130 that can be loaded with anti-fire measures. Apparently, these planes were "out of service" or "unavailable" for aid according to Grayout Davis.

So here's my question: Does California really have access to these planes? And if so, what on earth could they have been doing that's more important than fire fighting (excepting, of course, being drafted into the war effort, but as I understand it, that's not the case)? Where were these planes? What were they doing that kept them out of service or unavailable?

Keep in mind that my husband only heard part of the story and isn't positive he got the details right. But either way, it sounds fishy. Anybody know anything about this?

[KC]

I dont know what species they are/were. There were also a few different species mixed together. If it's any help, some firefighter said they were going off like the oil-soaked bombs they are.

BTW, something like 300 home were destroyed there in Scripps Ranch. They just let residents back in this afternoon. That is about 30% of the total number of houses destroyed here in SD county.

The little town of Cuyamaca was totally destroyed, and they were intent on fighting the fire house-to-house in Julian.

Palomar Mountain (where the famous telescope is) was being evacuated this afternoon.

Air quality is so lousy they are creating new categories of bad-ness to define it. Visibility this afternoon was under 1000 feet for several hours, *and still* there are idiots taking their babies out in strollers while jogging.

[UnknownSailor]

I distinctly remember seeing USMC C-130 water drops during airshows at the now closed MCAS El Toro. Whether the USMC deactivated the equipment or somehow got rid of it is unknown....

[Standing Wolf]

When is reason and sanity going to prevail over the insanity of preservationists?

Probably about three weeks after it snows in Miami on Independence Day.

[C.R.Sam]

Fact--enviro laws allow dead wood to build up That is a biggie.
A big part of why we lost a lot in Arizona in the last two years and a big part of the size and speed of the ongoing Calif fires.

I too have 5 in harms way there.
Tis a bit tense out tonight.

Sam

[jimpeel]

If it wasn't terrorists, why was Michael Brown, Deputy Director of Homeland Security doing in San Bernardino?

If I were a terrorist, who was from a non-burnable sandpit, I would certainly use fire as a primary weapon in a tinderbox. The logic of doing so is frightening. Arson terrorists could keep this government dancing for several years and run up staggering costs to society, businesses, and the costs those businesses will pass on to society.

[2dogs]

More evidence
of terror in fires

Police investigate arson in San Bernardino, summer blazes in France linked to gas bombs

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: October 28, 2003
5:00 p.m. Eastern



© 2003 WorldNetDaily.com

While Southern California law enforcement authorities investigate an eyewitness report of arson in at least one of the major wildfires that have killed 15 people, destroyed 483,000 acres and 1,134 homes, there is new evidence terrorism was behind other recent wildfires in Europe and Australia.


NASA satellite image of Southern California wildfires.

The San Bernardino Sheriff's Department reported it was seeking two men, both around 20, who were seen in a van on a road north of the city of San Bernardino last weekend. A witness saw one occupant throw something on to the roadside brush that started a fire. The witness said the van made a U-turn and fled the scene.

Meanwhile, in devastating forest fires that swept through the Maures mountains near the French Riviera in late July, investigators found Molotov cocktails, or gasoline bombs, were used to ignite the blazes that killed at least four and destroyed 50 homes.

Luc Jousse, the mayor of Roque-Sur-Argens, called the fires "a new form of terrorism." President Jacques Chirac threatened those responsible with "sanctions of an extraordinary gravity."

The fires in France were the worst ever in the region.

In addition, southern Italy was also hit last summer with devastating wildfires also believed to be the result of arson.

In August, Australian authorities launched an investigation into reports al-Qaida planned to spark brushfires in a new wave of devastating terror attacks.

A June 25 FBI memo to United States law enforcement agencies revealed a senior al-Qaida detainee claimed to have developed a plan to start midsummer forest fires in the U.S.

The terrorist hoped to mimic the destruction that devastated Canberra last summer, killing four people and destroying more than 500 homes, as well as in other parts of Australia.

The memo, obtained by the Arizona Republic newspaper, said the unidentified detainee revealed he hoped to create several large, catastrophic wildfires at once.

"The detainee believed that significant damage to the U.S. economy would result and once it was realized that the fires were terrorist acts, U.S. citizens would put pressure on the U.S. government to change its policies," the memo said.

The detainee told investigators his plan called for three or four operatives to travel to the U.S. and set timed explosive devices in forests and grasslands.

"Australian security authorities are aware of reports that al-Qaida has considered starting brushfires in the U.S. as a form of terrorist attack," said a spokeswoman Australian Attorney General Daryl Williams. "Arson attacks are just one of a wide range of scenarios which have been considered as part of our investigations into al-Qaida's ability to conduct attacks in Australia."

In fact, Arab terrorists in Israel have started dozens of major forest fires over the years.

As far back as 1988, Israeli police caught more than a dozen Palestinian adults in the act of setting fires, while other Arabs confessed to arson after arrest. Some fires followed specific calls by underground Arab terrorists. A leaflet issued by the Palestinian uprising's underground leadership called for ''the destruction and burning of the enemy's properties, industry and agriculture.''

Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir said at the time: ''The need to set fires, which also leads to murders, is in my eyes worse than fundamentalism.''

Israeli nature reserve authorities said 408 fires in May and June of 1988 destroyed 400,000 acres of land, nearly seven times the acreage burned from 1974 to 1986.

Last year, Gilad "Gidi" Mastai, chief ranger in the Galilee region of Israel, told the Jerusalem Post: "It's extremely hard to find arsonists, just like it's hard to close off the Green Line to terrorists. The forests here are on the front line."

But, he said, the vast majority of deliberate fires are started by Arabs with political motives.

Forest rangers often need the help of the Israel Defense Forces to battle the terror blazes.

Arson cases account for one-third of Israeli forest fires. "Political" arsonists cause the most with negligent hikers a close second.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=35306

[fallingblock]

My old ornithology prof lives up in Mountain Home Village (well, if his cabin is still intact)...he pointed out the groves of lemon-scented gums on the U. of Redlands campus years ago. Their leaves are chock full of volatile oils...they do literally explode whrn a fire reaches them:eek:


************************************************************
"Air quality is so lousy they are creating new categories of bad-ness to define it. Visibility this afternoon was under 1000 feet for several hours, *and still* there are idiots taking their babies out in strollers while jogging."
************************************************************

Just what Southern Cal needed...another source of air pollution:(

I hope you'll be breathing more reasonable air soon. The forecasts say the wind will be off the Pacific.....and blow the glop inland if it holds.:)

[DaveB]

I don't know whether these fires were started by Islamic Fanatics or by out-of-work firefighters, or by some accident, or by God, and neither does anyone else (yet). It seems that at least one was started by a hunter, and it got away from him - that happens every year.

A van made a U-Turn? Stop the presses! It must be ayrabs!!

As for "it the enviros' fault", that's simply not true.

The entire west has seen instant and overwhelming response to all fires for the last 50 years. Fire is a natural part of the ecology of all western wildlands, and serves to clear out each year's undergrowth without harming the larger trees. So. Cal. is a bit different: the entire hillside used to burn virtually every year - there are few big trees.

Enviros want a halt to the cutting of old growth. The only reason timber companies are interested in logging is to cut and haul away the big trees - they have no interest in scrub oak and manzenita. Most informed enviros don't give a rat's patottie whether scrub is cut - it'll grow back the next year.

Not allowing the small, annual fires to burn undisturbed guarantees that there is a the huge amount of fuel on the ground now. That, coupled with drought and many, many houses built where they shouldn't be, is the reason these fires are so destructive.

The fires will burn every year, we can't prevent them. All we can do is get smarter about letting them do their jobs, and control how people build and landscape their houses in high-risk areas.

If some guy wants to build his dream house in a fire-friendly area, let him assume the risk. It's not fair to expect firefighters to die so that this guy can install a ceder shake roof, and let the petunias grow right up to the (flammable) side of his house. It's much the same as allowing everybody and his brother to build on the Atlantic barrier islands - the storms will come, and houses will put out to sea. It's nature's way of maintaining control.

db

[Baba Louie]

I hope you'll be breathing more reasonable air soon. The forecasts say the wind will be off the Pacific.....and blow the glop inland if it holds.
Yeah, Las Vegas had an eerie yellow hue to the sky today, winds starting to kick up.
Lets hope So. Cal now gets some rain to cause fire outages and the associated mud slides.
Whats the toll now, 18 dead and 3000 homes gone? Hard to get happy after that.

Adios

[cuchulainn]

from the Monroe Times

http://www.themonroetimes.com/o1029pgu.htmLocal law enforcement shoots down idea of concealed weapons

Published Wednesday, October 29, 2003 10:28:20 AM Central Time

By Matthew Butler

of the Times

MONROE -- Local law enforcement officials are set against a concealed-carry bill which would allow Wisconsin residents to carry a concealed weapon in public but others in the area support the action.

On Friday, Oct. 24 the Senate voted 24-8 in favor to overturn the state's 130-year-old ban on concealed weapons. Green and Lafayette county law enforcement officials hope the bill doesn't become a law.

Those in favor of the bill say allowing citizens to conceal weapons will reduce crimes. Lafayette County Sheriff Scott Pedley and Green County Sheriff Randy Roderick disagree with that claim.

"I am opposed to the legislation in its current form. I have not seen any evidence that carrying concealed weapons does reduce crime," Pedley said.

Roderick echoed the same sentiment, a feeling shared by most sheriffs statewide. According to the Badger Sheriff's Association, only three Wisconsin sheriffs are on record officially supporting a concealed hand gun law. In a survey conducted by the Wisconsin Sheriff's and Deputy Sheriff's Association, only 36 percent of all state sheriffs polled believe such a law would help reduce crime.

That statistic goes against figures revealed by the FBI Uniform Crime Report. The FBI report states the total violent crime rate in states that prohibit carrying a concealed weapon is 26 percent higher than in states that allow citizens to carry a concealed weapon. That same report also says the homicide rate is 49 percent higher, robbery rate 58 percent higher and aggravated assault rate 15 percent higher than in states that don't allow concealed weapons.

Pedley said he has talked to law enforcement officials in states that allow concealed-carry and they have told him there hasn't been a problem. Pedley said he hasn't closed the door on supporting conceal-carry in Wisconsin, but he still doesn't support how the legislation has been written.

Under the proposal, people would have to apply for a concealed weapon permit from a county sheriff and then would be required to undergo 22 hours of weapons training to obtain the $75 license.

People would also have to be at least 21 years old, be a state resident and not have a felony conviction, have no history of mental illness, have no controlled substances conviction during the past three years and also not be an alcohol or substance abuser.

The problem with these requirements, Pedley said, is that in order to perform complete background checks, his department would need to upgrade its computer equipment, at a cost of about $32,000. He also said new HIPAA (Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act) regulations could limit the accuracy of the background checks.

"With the new HIPAA regulations, there's a lot of confidentiality. We just simply are not going to have information with regard to a person's background, such as do they have an alcohol or drug dependency? Were they just released from a mental institution?" he said. "If they were committed to a mental institution in another state for a mental illness, we don't have access to that information. I know that happens. I know of people in Lafayette County who have been treated in Iowa for mental illness. But I only know that through the rumor mill."

Roderick said he is concerned 22 hours of weapons training is not nearly enough to cover all the issues involved in carrying a weapon. He said he's seen no legislation that outlines specifically what the 22 hours of weapons training would cover.

"How much training will a person have in 22 hours? What's that going to cover? I haven't even seen the curriculum. Is it going to cover use of deadly force, how to handle stressful situations?"

One example of a stressful situation mentioned by Roderick and Pedley is road rage. They wondered could someone, after being cut off on the road, fly off the handle?

"Incidents of road rage have occurred. I often think what would someone do if they had a firearm available to them. We've had road rage incidents occur here that have potentially been quite tragic. That's a concern," Pedley said. "I certainly hope if this bill passed there would be a lot of training to reminding people to control their emotions and control their temper."

Don Martin, owner of Martin's Sport Shop, Monroe, which sells hand guns, said the road rage situation is certainly a possibility. "I'm sure there are instances where things won't work the way you want it to," he said. But, he said, if people are allowed to carry weapons, criminals might think twice before committing a crime.

"It's one of those things that would make a criminal worry who's going to pull something out. From that standpoint, I think it stops a lot of crimes that happen."

Another proponent of the conceal-carry proposal is Gary Sutherland. Sutherland, a member of the National Rifle Association and the Green County Conservation League, a non-profit organization which hosts a gun show each year, said concealed-carry works in other states and it can work here. And he, too, believes it reduces crime.

"People against it fear shoot-outs, and that's just not true. Every state that has enacted it, their crime rate has went down, particularly Florida."

Since adopting concealed-carry in 1997, Florida's homicide rate has dropped 21 percent. Over a six-year period, Florida issued more than 204,100 permits and only 17 were revoked because these individuals later committed a crime.

"You have to be a pretty outstanding citizen" to get the permit, Sutherland said. He added "the criminals, the bad guys -- they're already going around armed. If you went to the bad section of any big city and let it be known you wanted a hand gun, I bet you'd have it in a day or less, no questions asked, just have the cash," Sutherland said. "The fact that a few honest people would be armed certainly would not be a problem."

The bill now has moved into the Assembly. If the Assembly approves the bill, Gov. Jim Doyle would have to sign and approve it. He has stated, however, that he will oppose the bill. If he does veto the bill, it can be overridden by a two-thirds vote in both houses.

Copyright ©2003 Bliss Communication Inc

[fsjeffrey]

I've heard a number of media types opine that there hasn't been a fire in these areas for about 30 years. Over that period the shrubs and other such "fuel" has been allowed to accumulate and never cleared from the forests.

I seem to recall, though I may be wrong, that environmental groups had blocked efforts by the state to let contracts to lumber companies to do clearing and thinning out of the high risk areas.

Does anyone have any idea why the state has not cleared these areas in order to lessen the chances of such a catastrophe as we are now seeing?

[fsjeffrey]

http://www.sierratimes.com/03/10/29/article_jj.htm

[7.62FullMetalJacket]

Absolutely. THe envirowhackos have been tying up the courts for years. It is so bad, theat one "forest management" procedure had to be reviewed by 800 stake holders over 3 years before it could be implemented. The Enviro Whackos are using administrative law and the courts to turn logic on its head.

What does this lead to? The sacred trees are now gone (with a whole bunch of "human habitat"). The kangaroo rat that we were not allowed to disturb are broiled. The "native" flora you wanted to preserve is gone. And all of that erosion you wanted to avoid by not building roads for forest management...you ain't seen nothing yet. Wait until the winter rains.

[fsjeffrey]

7.62 FMJ or anyone,

What can we do about it?

Any thoughts?

[KC]

The air was better today. Similiar to a light, persistant white fog, not the pea-soup, Mexico City on a bad day, your lungs are toast, sort of pollution level. It still isnt good, mind you, but better.

It's too bad I'm not more mercenary than I am. If I had cleaned Home Depot out of their stock of the nice 3M double-cartridge respirators, a few hours later I could have turned them for twice as much.

The fires are now confined to the eastern parts of the county, which has a lot lower population density, but a lot more potential fuel. The upside is that there are several thousand firefighters in this county alone trying to get a handle on things. Considering that the various fires across SoCal have already burned a combined area greater than Rhode Island, I hope it's enough.

Julian is still there, at least the downtown part. A lot of the outlying homes are gone. No apple festival likely this year due to a shortage of apples.

Santa Ysabel is threatened, but it's was like that this time yesterday when it was under mandatory evacuation. No word on the continued existance of Dudley's Bakery.

The school I go to is at the west end of Scripps Ranch, and it was undamaged, but evacuated for a few days. Kind of a shame too, because the various buildings are wretched remmants of early 1970's progressive architecture, and the library is an ill-considered joke. Destruction would have been a nusiance, but an improvement.


Given that we are at the end of a five-year drought, this *would* be the year that we get record-setting rains. Mother Nature is capricious enough for it...

[KC]

This guy may be in part right, but his tone is enough that *I* might write a check to the Sierra Club just to spite the SOB.

One important factor that he doesnt mention, one that goes hand-in-hand with the silly enviromental legislation, was the fact the SoCal is in the fifth year of a pretty intensive drought. There is nothing that any amount of politicking and/or petty demagogery could do to change this. Here in San Diego, it has been something like 178 days since we last had any appreciable amount of rainfall, and it sure as snot wasn't a lot even then.

[7.62FullMetalJacket]

You must get involved. Whenever there is a public meeting at City Hall to discuss this or that permit, find out what is going on. Pasadena isn't that big. Start groups of like minded persons. Letters to the editor of local papers. Write to the Socialists in the legislature, write to Arnold. Write to your esteemed socialist senators Boxer and Boxer Light (Di Fi did come out and say we need to do something). Write to your congresscritter.

Sierra Club, Earth First, NRDC, etc.. all have us out maneuvered. They know how to work the system. They obviously do not get up and go to work everyday like we do (at least to a steady job). I read a study that the Browner EPA (under CLinton) has a sweet deal. They would sue the feds over here, win, get the cash, and then attack joe citizen over there. They were called on it and are being audited now (503(c) non-profits can not mingle funds that way.

Moreover, they have a ton of lawyers. But all they have is procedure. They seek to regulate the land of others. They seek to enforce unrealistic burdens on the land of others. They believe that taking land (denying use) is a great goal if it saves one Stephen's kangaroo rat, snail darter, or denies humans any aid or comfort.

The only way we can beat them is with the help of our lawmakers, who can make laws like Daschle did in South Dakota (and only SD). In order to prevent huge fires, we will perform the appropriate forest management practices without interference by all of these frivolous lawsuits.


We have a mountain here in Utah. Large beautiful trees. The we got bark beetles 10 years ago. USFS attempted to control the infestation. Here come the activists and the lawyers. Nothing was done. NOTHING. Now all of the trees are dead for 40 miles. It will take 3 generations to see trees of that size on that mountain. But it is not over. These whackos still hold so much sway, the USFS can not remove the dead trees to prevent a catastrophic fire! WHY can't someone just tell the emporer that he is not wearing any clothes?

[fsjeffrey]

FMJ,

Sounds good. I'll give it a try.

Arnold needs to know about this.

[C.R.Sam]

Droughts come and droughts go.
Tis the nature of things.

Forbidding proper management of brushlands and forests
Is not natural.

When a drought cycle stresses the timber, the bark beetles come and finish killing the trees. If cut; they become lumber, firewood, pulp etc. And the land is ready for another generation of trees when the water returns.

If not cut and removed, they become fuel for catastrophic fires.

The Sierras and other greens have not only kept us from cuttin trees; they have kept us from cuttin fire roads and clearing underbrush.

I not only agree with what was said in the article, I agree with his tone.

In the last two years we have lost a bit over a million acres of trees, houses, businesses, hopes and dreams.

Just here in Arizona.
Other states in similar situations.

Thank you Sierra Club and other Greens:
We owe you one.

Sam

[Malone LaVeigh]

Keep in mind, folks, that there were 60+ mph winds at the time. And the smoke was too thick to see the ground. Even if you could fly in that stuff, what good does it do if you can't see the target? Also, you need a spotter on the ground calling in the drops.

Those pilots are some of the bravest people in aviation. They fly outdated and ancient aircraft into conditions that most military pilots never see. Every year we lose a few.

Just got word today that my team will probably be heading south next week to start working on the rehab plan. Last year, someone thought November would be a good month to be on the rotation...

Edited to add a verb. Sentences work much better with a verb.

[Malone LaVeigh]

Fact--enviro laws allow dead wood to build upWell, that's not a fact. Fifty years of Smokey the Bear have resulted in dead wood and other fuel building up. If every timber sale planned for the last 10 years had been implemented as planned it wouldn't have made a dent in the fuel problem. Our fuels projects are not generally stopped by enviro laws, unless there is a big green tree component, and then we usually get appealed.

[Malone LaVeigh]

THe envirowhackos have been tying up the courts for years. It is so bad, theat one "forest management" procedure had to be reviewed by 800 stake holders over 3 years before it could be implemented. The Enviro Whackos are using administrative law and the courts to turn logic on its head.More myth. Next, we'll hear the one about the four firefighters who supposedly died because of the Endangered Species Act.

[Jeff White]

Malone,
What should we be doing to manage this problem? There must be some way to balance this out.

Jeff

[El Rojo]

I read in another article that the hunter shot a flare from a flare gun. Man how the media gets everything all confused.

[ReadyontheRight]

what started the fires??

Hmmm -- they build some large cities in a desert, with minimal natural water sources and periodically have large fires.

Must be global warming caused by my SUV.:rolleyes:

My prayers go out to those in the path and those fighting the fires, but we need to fight those will are already turning this into another "look what you conservatives are doing to mother earth" screaming session.

[Skunkabilly]

Must be global warming caused by my SUV.

Are you sure it wasn't the widening gap between the rich and the poor?

I read in another article that the hunter shot a flare from a flare gun. Man how the media gets everything all confused.

I'm surprised we haven't heard much anti-hunting rhetoric just yet.

[KC]

Oh! I forgot to mention...

Before I was going to leave ahead of the fire on Sunday, I had to do something with all my ammo. I really didnt want to be responsible for single-handedly wiping out a fire crew when a few thousand rounds cooked off. Fortunatly, I had it all in GI ammo cans, so I chucked (well, carefully placed) it into the pool. Pulled it out Tuesday morning, and not one can had leaked.

[Malone LaVeigh]

Malone,
What should we be doing to manage this problem? There must be some way to balance this out. Thanks for asking, Jeff. It would take a large book to do justice to the subject, but I'll throw out a couple of ideas:

1) We need a market for small trees and other wood products that the timber companies right now, for the most part, don't want to buy. A few years ago, here in Calif, there were incentives for power companies to purchase non-conventional power. A lot of mills had cogeneration plants and made a few bucks selling power to the big companies. Most of the big power companies didn't like that, so it got thrown out about the time Pete Wilson deregulated energy. So now there's no market for all of the biomass and hog fuels that we really need to get rid of in the forests.

2) We need the timber companies to retrofit their mills to take small trees. We offer small tree sales all of the time, but they don't sell. In fact, a sale that even requires the purchaser to haul off the small trees along with the big ones is not likely to sell. The myth that the forest would be healthy if we got rid of the regulations ignores the "activity fuels" that are generated by logging. If untreated, they leave the forest a lot more prone to fire.

3) We need to face the fact that a lot of work needs to be done in the woods that is not going to generate a timber sale, and bite the bullet and put up more appropriated funds to get the work done. We have a pretty good fuels program on my forest, but could do a lot more good work if we had the funds.



Unfortunately, the above solutions run afoul of the free market fundamentalists in Washington and aren't even on the table.

[w4rma]

U.S. Rejected Davis on Aid to Clear Trees
FEMA spent six months studying the governor's request, then turned it down hours before fires began, saying state was already getting funds.

By Gregg Jones and Dan Morain, Times Staff Writers

SACRAMENTO — The Bush administration took six months to evaluate Gov. Gray Davis' emergency request last spring for $430 million to clear dead trees from fire-prone areas of Southern California.

The request was finally denied Oct. 24, only hours before wildfires roared out of control in what has become the largest fire disaster in California history.

Rep. Mary Bono (R-Palm Springs), a leader in the effort to get federal assistance for fire prevention, questioned Thursday why the Federal Emergency Management Agency did not rule sooner.

"FEMA's decision was wrong," Bono said. "The timing couldn't have been worse.... We knew this disaster was going to happen with certainty. It was only a matter of when, and we were trying to beat the clock with removing the dead trees."
…
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-fema31oct31,1,4116024.story?coll=la-home-headlines

[BenW]

1) We need a market for small trees and other wood products that the timber companies right now, for the most part, don't want to buy.

Malone -- I don't know if the different Forest Service Districts keep track of each other or not, but do you know what the timber sales situation is in the Inyo National Forest? I go up there fishing every year, and spend a good bit of time driving the forest service and 4X roads between 395 and Nevada, just South of Mono Lake.

This year when I was up there in September, one of the things I noticed was the timber harvesting. The stands open for harvesting seemed to be well thought out in their distribution, and there seemed to be a good mix of users -- from the little guys with pickups (apparently selling firewood to the Mammoth area) to what looked like smaller commercial operations using 2-5 ton flatbeds. At the same time, the Forest Service had a couple of planned fires going. Obviously this was just a cursory observation on my part as I have no expertise in timber or forest management. Neverthless it seemed like there was a good mix of users, the forests looked quite healthy, and I didn't see anything that looked like environmental degradation in the areas being harvested. When I was looking at all this, one of the things I thought was that this all seemed to be good mixed use of a forest, with everyone from nature walkers to small timber guys making good use of the resources, while the forest seemed to be well maintained. It seems to me if what I saw in Inyo were SOP in a lot of other places, it would reduce the chances of having out of control fires, while allowing good multiple use of public land.

[DaveB]

Nice photo - I don't know the real source.
http://www.sport-touring.net/iB_html/uploads/post-13-90159-tanker.jpg

I've been under two slurry drops; it's pretty exciting. We got down behind trees and watched.

I also got to climb around on some old scrapped slurry bombers at the Greybull (WY) airport while we were waiting for our ride - a DC-3 - to fetch us back to Colo.

Hey, big machines are cool.

db

[jimpeel]

We need a market for small trees ...I know! Christmas is coming and maybe we could ... well ... maybe ... nah, it'll never work. Nevermind.

[Jeff White]

Washington Times
October 30, 2003
Pg. 16

Wildfires And Security Sparks

By Jack Kelly

At this writing, wildfires in California have taken 15 lives and more than 1,000 homes. This is already the most expensive fire in California history, and it is still blazing out of control.

What if the fires were deliberately set, by al Qaeda terrorists?

This is purely conjecture, but the idea apparently has occurred to al Qaeda.

On June 25, the FBI's regional office in Denver sent a memorandum to state and local law enforcement agencies warning them of a plot to start forest fires in the western United States using timed incendiary devices.

The FBI learned of the plot from a senior al Qaeda detainee, who told investigators he had developed a plan to set forest fires in Colorado, Montana, Utah and Wyoming.

"The detainee believed that significant damage to the U.S. economy would result and once it was realized that the fires were terrorist acts, U.S. citizens would put pressure on the U.S. government to change its policies," said the FBI memo, a copy of which was obtained by the Arizona Republic.

There has been no official determination of what started the fires, which most likely are the product of natural causes, or of accidents. But a news report indicated that the sheriff's department in San Bernardino County is seeking two men, both about 20, who were seen on a road north of San Bernardino on Saturday. "A witness saw one occupant throw something into roadside brush that started a fire and the van then made a U-turn and fled, officials said."

There are plenty of soft targets to attack in the United States. Because they are willing to attack anything, terrorists can do massive harm at little risk to themselves. If they are willing to die in the process, the carnage they can cause rises exponentially.

On September 11, 2001, Islamic extremists killed nearly 3,000 Americans.

Unless al Qaeda had a hand in the California wildfires, there have been no successful terrorist attacks on U.S. soil since. It's important to remind ourselves why, since Democrats seem determined to restore us to our pre-September 11 vulnerability.

The Democrats are very much a Sept. 10 party. A recent poll indicated fewer than 5 percent of likely primary and caucus voters in Iowa, New Hampshire and South Carolina worried much about terrorism or homeland security. Democrats want to declare the war on terrorism over, and get on with really important stuff like global warming and national health insurance.

But if we unilaterally declare the war on terrorism over, would the terrorists go along?

Here are three hypotheses for why no Americans have died at terrorist hands on U.S. soil since September 11: (A) Al Qaeda has renounced violence as a means of obtaining its objectives. (B) American offensives in Afghanistan, Iraq and elsewhere have knocked the terror network off balance. (C) Heightened vigilance by the FBI and other domestic security agencies has reduced the vulnerability of domestic targets.

Most Americans would opt for a combination of hypotheses B and C, with a liberal dose of luck thrown in. But most of the Democratic presidential contenders seem to be leaning toward A. Of the nine candidates, only two support seeing the mission in Iraq through to a successful conclusion.

Nearly all seem to think our liberties are threatened more by the FBI than by the terrorists the FBI is trying to catch.

Attorney General John Ashcroft says that the U.S.A. Patriot Act of 2001, which restored to the FBI investigative tools that had been taken away in an orgy of political correctness in the 1970s, has made it possible to break up terrorist cells in Buffalo, Seattle, Portland and Detroit. But the leading Democratic candidates liken the Patriot Act to the Alien and Sedition Acts, or Lincoln's suspension of habeas corpus during the Civil War. Even some who voted for it are calling for its repeal.

Howard Dean, Wesley Clark, John Kerry, John Edwards et al say we can pull out of Iraq and repeal the Patriot Act without adverse consequences.

They're willing to bet your life on it. Are you?

Jack Kelly, a syndicated columnist, is a former Marine and Green Beret and a former deputy assistant secretary of the Air Force in the Reagan administration. He is national security writer for the Pittsburgh (Pa.) Post-Gazette.

[7.62FullMetalJacket]

California Fires Reignite Forest Thinning Debate


Friday, October 31, 2003
By Steven Milloy

"Our forests are detonating like napalm bombs. We need to remove dead and dying bug-killed timber," said Rep. Wally Herger, R-Calif.


Is this Monday-morning quarterbacking spurred by the wildfires now raging in California? Hardly.

Rep. Herger uttered those words in August 1994 as part of his demand that Congress declare a state of emergency in federal forests to permit quick removal of dead trees, fallen branches and other debris that fuel wildfires -- like those that burned 3 million Western acres and killed 14 firefighters that year.

A spokesman for the Natural Resources Defense Council (search) responded at the time by calling Rep. Herger’s demand “a pretext for accelerated logging in the Sierra Nevada.”

Nine years later, though, Rep. Herger’s demand is looking pretty prescient.

Over 700,000 acres have burned so far this year in California alone, along with the loss of 20 lives and more than 2,600 homes destroyed. Last year, wildfires burned nearly 7 million acres, killed 23 firefighters, destroyed more than 800 homes and cost taxpayers more than $1.5 billion.

So what do the environmentalists have to say?

A spokesperson for the Natural Resources Defense Council called President Bush’s proposed plan to prevent forest fires by thinning excess growth “a Trojan horse” for sneaking through logging (search) projects.

As the Western forests burn -- and people die and homes are destroyed -- environmentalists and their political allies in Congress only seem concerned that some “old growth” trees may be cut in the process of thinning the nation’s tinder traps. Their nonsensical opposition to thinning only makes it easier for wildfires to spread out of control.

That’s positively cuckoo.

"We need to do some active management to prevent unnatural fire" that occurs as a result of dense underbrush and trees built up over decades, U.S. Forest Service Chief Dale Bosworth says. "If that means cutting a 14-foot [diameter] Sequoia, that's reasonable [to do to] prevent fire."

Amen, brother.

Thinning forests (search) works -- and it’s actually more effective over the long-term than simply fighting forest fires every year.

A 1910 wildfire in Idaho, Montana and Washington burned 3 million acres and spurred the federal government to spend money to aggressively fight forest fires. This fire-fighting policy had an unintended result; forests became overgrown with trees and vegetation that could serve as fuel for more catastrophic fires.

In forests that have only tens of trees per acre, flames tend to stay close to the ground. But in crowded forests with hundreds and thousands of trees per acre, like we have today, the flames can easily move across tree tops. “Flames are 90 feet tall instead of 3 feet tall," according to the University of Idaho forestry expert Dr. Leon Neuenschwander.

A bill currently under consideration in Congress calls for aggressive thinning on up to 20 million acres of federal land at high risk of fire. The bill would reduce bureaucratic reviews and limit appeals -- the tools environmentalists use to block rational forest management -- so that some thinning efforts could be completed within months.

President Bush urged the Senate to pass the legislation -- last May. “For too many years, bureaucratic tangles and bad forest policy have prevented foresters from keeping our woodlands healthy and safe," said the president.

"This year's fire outlook seems less severe, and that's good news," the president added. "Yet the danger persists, and many of our forests are facing a higher-than-normal risk of costly and catastrophic fires."

California is apparently one of the areas of elevated risk referred to by the president.

Putting aside the environmentalists’ general anti-industry -- especially anti-logging -- political agenda and accepting for argument’s sake their alleged concerns about the need to preserve “old growth forests” for “future generations,” the bill before Congress does not permit unrestricted clear-cutting of old growth forests.

Rather, it’s a limited measure intended to prevent the spread of forest fires and it has the collateral benefit of helping the timber industry (search), which has lost 47,000 jobs since 1989. Let’s also not forget that trees -- even old growth -- are not irreplaceable. They will grow back. Forest products giant Weyerhaeuser plants 130 million seedlings every year.

Under Bush’s proposal for thinning overgrowth, we’ll still have venerable “old growth” but also reduced vulnerability to annual, unpreventable and destructive wildfires.

Environmentalist squawking about thinning overgrowth reminds me of the Santa Ana winds (search) -- hot air that only fans wildfire flames.

Steven Milloy is the publisher of JunkScience.com, an adjunct scholar at the Cato Institute and the author of Junk Science Judo: Self-defense Against Health Scares and Scams (Cato Institute, 2001).

[w4rma]

reply from a professional forest ecologist which might well translate to "environmental whacko" in your world, but at least I know what I'm talking about to some degree. The single biggest management problem with the lands that are presently burning is 100 years or so of attempted fire suppression, which has resulted in massive fuel accumulation and a transition to dense, brush dominated forests filled with combustable litter. Western forests, especially the mediteranean chapperal and pine forests of southern California, were historically fire maintained, with an average fire cycle on the order of about every ten years or so (with lots of regional variation). That suppressed the brush and cleaned out the fuels, as well as stimulating new growth, sending a pulse of nutrients into the soil, and so on.

Fire suppression has disrupted that natural fire cycle and created hideously dangerous conditions. The two primary justifications for fire suppression are 1) forest protection, and 2) human habitation protection. The first is based largely on protection of timber value, rather than habitat value, and is essentially bogus. As I said, it has resulted in conditions that are a ticking time bomb, and which virtually guarantee large scale forest destruction. The second justification is more difficult to deal with-- to some degree, building homes up in the canyons of the southern California coast range is just a dumb thing to do, sort of like building on land that you know floods every 25 years or so, especially if home-owners insist on letting the chapperal grow near their houses, putting plants in their yards, etc.

The only way to alleviate this situation is to let fires burn, and to set them intentionally whenever fuel loads begin to accumulate before they reach truely dangerous levels. This isn't popular with the owners of million dollar homes in the hills, or with their insurance companies, but nature isn't always accomodating.

As for your comments about bark beetles, you are partially correct that Dendroctonus beetle outbreaks in some southern California forests have exacerbated fire conditions, but only because those conditions were already dangerously bad. Beetle outbreaks-- like low-to-moderate intensity fires-- are part of normal forest ecology. They are intensified by poor logging sanitation, which provides virtually unlimited brood habitat for colonizing beetles, and by many conditions which stress otherwise healthy conifers. In particular, the current outbreaks were certainly worsened, if not triggered, by drought, severe competition between trees in stands that would normally be maintained at much lower densities by fire, and by damage caused by extensive human encroachment (e.g. forest fragmentation by roads and homes, tree damage during logging, poor logging sanitation, and so on).

Mechanically thinning the forest is not the answer-- doing so economically almost always increases fuel loads, at least in the short term, and leads to denser, more dangerous stands in the longer term. Timber sales always take out the most merchantable wood, not the low volume brushy stuff that's the problem. The only real answer is regular fire. And the insurance companies be damned.
…
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=186692&mesg_id=186795
…
There is a film that is shown at the Museum of Natural History at Exhbition Park in Los Angeles that explains the process of seasonal fires in the canyons of California. You should go there and see it.

It's a natural process by nature to clear out the dead debris to make way for new growth on the old growth trees that survive the process just fine. The fires burn away all the old and diseased parts of the trees to encourage new growth much like pruning old and decaying parts of ones shrubs encourages new growth.

Fire also purges the diseases and pests that destroy the forests. Taking the good trees only makes the forests more vulnerable. Have you ever seen what happens when a logging company goes in and clear cuts a stand of trees? Well I have. The first thing they do is strip off all the parts off to the logs that they don't want. They leave in piles to dry out and this debris increases the fire vulnerability of the area. They also leave behind the diseased logs, which are of no use to them. People who live in the canyons know the danger.

Eventually, they might go in and plant seedlings, but instead of planting the variety that nature does, they plant only the species they want to encourage and usually they are genetically similar. IF a pest attacks a tree that is susceptible to it, another genetically different tree that has evolved a defense against that pest will survive and the damaged trees will be only a few. Not only that, varieties of the species often protect each other from diseases and pests.

This makes Bush's healthy forest initiative nothing but crock of ???? and a big boon to the destructive practices of the logging companies. Sorry but Bush and the crooks in Washington have lied to you again and are now scape goating the very organizations who are trying to stop these practices.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=603586&mesg_id=603655

[MicroBalrog]

The AlQuaeda version is more likely than you think - some freaks did set forest fires in this country, they could in yours.

[DaveB]

It seems that there's a giant Russian fire-fighting tanker available, and the feds won't use it.

From http://www.rense.com/general43/still.htm

Since 1996, Robinson has been waging a campaign to build public support for the deployment in this country of a Russian-made air tanker, the Ilyushin-76TD v nicknamed the "Waterbomber" v a rugged, airborne behemoth that can haul 11,000 gallons of liquid to a fire, nearly four times the carrying capacity of the C-130 Hercules, the largest tanker used by the Forest Service.

At the invitation of its officials and to facilitate the acceptance of the IL-76, Robinson serves as volunteer international liaison, an official representative of the Russian Federation and its Ministry of Emergency Situations v EMERCOM v the Russian counterpart of the Federal Emergency Management Agency. EMERCOM is the agency that actually owns the Waterbombers.

Robinson sees the IL-76 as a much-needed strategic weapon for the nation's firefighting arsenal. He is convinced that had it been called in when the Rodeo, Hayman and Biscuit fires began raging out of control, they would have been squelched before they became mega-blazes.

"Frankly, I'm outraged," says Robinson. "This has been going on over six years. The Forest Service has refused to allow this plane into this country for fire fighting. It's a modern aircraft, a four-engine jet. It covers an area the size of 12 football fields with one 10-second drop [of liquid v water or retardant]. It puts a fireline down 300 feet wide and 3,900 feet long in 10 seconds. It would have saved every community in Colorado and Arizona this year. It would have saved those 300 homes in Los Alamos two years ago."

Robinson said that two years ago during the Cerro Grande fire near Los Alamos, EMERCOM had two planes sitting on the runway in Moscow, fully crewed, each plane having three eight-man crews, ready to take off. They had been requested by FEMA, but at the last minute, FEMA told them they weren't needed after all.

The Associated Press reported that then-District IX FEMA director Buddy Young went to the fire and publicly announced, "You will not bring the Russian planes in here: We're not having any Russians coming here and fighting our fires."

db

[Skunkabilly]

Micro, I know it's possible but if so why haven't they claimed responsibility like they did for the Matrix: Reloaded fiasco? :confused: