The 'best' and the 'most popular' are not always the same.
September 6, 2009, 12:51 PM
Is that yours?
If so... do u use Surplus in it?
The 7.63 mm Mauser cartridge was the basis for the 7.62x25mm Tokarev round adopted by the Soviet Union. Although the case dimensions of the two cartridges are nearly identical, the 7.62 mm Tokarev has a stronger powder charge and is not suited for use in C96 pistols or other firearms chambered for 7.63 mm Mauser. However, the 7.63 mm Mauser could be used in firearms chambered for the 7.62 mm Tokarev.
September 6, 2009, 01:02 PM
I have this one for a few years. I avoid surplus because it is possible to get 7.62X25 that was loaded for machine gun. To hot for this old gal, it can damage the bolt stop. This one is in very good shape with original blue but not particularly rare. It's a wartime commercial made in 1915.
There are a lot of these floating around that can be had in the 400-500 dollar range. They well not have matching numbers, maybe the bore is past it's prime but they are still good shooters.
justashooter in pa
September 6, 2009, 02:21 PM
and they will have bent bolts and hammered bolt stops from shooting surp tokarev ammo.
September 7, 2009, 04:07 AM
So u are not using 7.62x25 but the mauser cartridge?
September 7, 2009, 10:03 AM
Both .30 Mauser and 7.63X25 seem to be readily available these days and that is what I keep on hand. I have used 7.62X25 in the past when it was all I could find, just not in this particular gun.
7.63X25(.30 Mauser) and 7.62X25 bot use a .308 bullet, cases spec is nearly identical but the 7.62 generally runs a little hotter.
Here is a little info on the two loads from the broomhandle forum. It boils down to some Tokarev ammo can be to hot for the broomhandle.
Circa 1930, the new Soviet military sidearm was modeled after John Browning designs. The recoil and locking mechanism, magazine holdopen, firing pin, etc. were very similar in principle to the American standard 1911/1911A1. The lockwork and cartridge feed arrangements were more original. The gun was chambered in 7.63mm, but Tokarev apparently found it expedient to respecify the case dimensions and tolerances, perhaps to suit production machinery already available in the Russian arsenals at Tula, Izhevsk, and Syestroretsk. So nominal dimensions of 7.62mm Tokarev and 7.63mm Mauser cartridges aren't identical, but they're mighty close. The apparent caliber difference - 7.62mm and 7.63mm - is nominal only. That is, the actual dimensions of bore and bullet were identical, but the Mauser cartridge had been given a name which would differentiate it from the 7.65 and 7.62 cartridges of the time. The situation is much like rifle cartridges, in which, say, .22-250, .222, and .223 are all the same actual caliber.
'Way back then, Russian small arms - 1891 rifles, 1985 revolvers, 1910 machine guns, 1941 and 1943 submachine guns, 1938/1940 Tokarev rifles, 1930/1933 Tokarev pistols, Simonov rifles, etc - were all of .30 caliber and had identical rifling. [Memo to self - document this!]. This allowed the Russians to use the same boring and rifling machinery for all small arms. Larger guns, such as the 1938 Degtyarev DShK in 12.7mm (suspiciously similar to the .50 Browning cartridge), obviously weren't made on the same machinery.
As produced by Russia, 7.62mm Tokarev cartridges were loaded to the same velocities as 7.63mm Mauser cartridges, and used the same bullet.
There is a theory that because the Mauser magazine was machined as part of the frame, and so was more rigid than the sheet metal Tokarev magazine, Mauser cartridges were subject to more severe battering under recoil than Tokarev cartridges. To prevent the bullets from being pushed into their cases, Mauser cartridge necks were staked with three crimp marks, but Tokarev cartridges could get by with the more conventional crimp. Historically, this theory doesn't seem to hold up. In the pre-Tokarev days, Mauser cartridges could be found with at least three types of crimp - three stakes, conventional crimp, and a particularly secure crimp into a bullet cannelure, a method used by, I think, Kynoch.
The Tokarev cartridge was adopted postwar by Communist China for the Type 51 and 54 pistols, the Type 50 submachine gun, etc - all copies of Russian guns. It was also adopted, doubtless under duress, by Warsaw Pact countries. The Pact countries were Poland, Czechoslovakia, Bulgaria, East Germany, Hungary, Albania (until 1968), Romania, and of course the USSR. (Note that Yugoslavia was never a member). The Warsaw Pact was an arrangement whereby in case of war with the counter-revolutionaries (ie, the West) national armies would be placed under Soviet command. The Soviet Union wanted common ammunition, but didn't require that the guns be identical to Soviet models. So some countries, most notably Czechoslovakia, adopted indigenous gun designs which used Soviet ammunition.
The Czech situation is complex. A large number of submachine gun designs are of Czech origin, dating from the 1930s to today, but most were intended for export sales and were never adopted by the Czechs themselves. The Czech army used submachine guns in 9x19mm until the country fell to the Communists in 1948. After that, the army's submachine guns, the Models 23 and 25, were redesigned to take Soviet 7.62mm ammunition, and became the Models 24 and 26. The later Model 61, the Skorpion, was unrelated to these, and was always in 7.65mm (32ACP). The Czechs loaded their 7.63mm ammo to higher velocities than standard Tokarev. One edition of Hogg & Weeks (Handguns of the World, 2nd ed) called that heavier loading Czech M48, but later editions deleted that sentence [memo to self - verify this].
The 1952 Czech pistol was supposedly designed for this more powerful cartridge loading, but that seems odd as the Vz 52 is a rather flimsy pistol (although the locking arrangement is strong enough). Commercially loaded Czech ammunition (Sellier & Bellot Tokarev) is noticeably hotter than historical 7.63 Mauser ammo, at 1647 ft/sec vs. 1400 ft/sec or so.
Ezell, Small Arms of the World (12th ed, basically the old Smith book with Smith's name dropped off) - which is not 100% reliable - lists 1640 ft/sec for the Russian PPSh41 (with 10.6 inch barrel), vs. 1800 ft/sec for the Czech Model 24 (with 11.2 inch barrel). In other words, one cartridge (Tokarev), two different velocities from similar barrels. The question of which Tokarev is hot, and which is not (or, more importantly, which is too hot), has yet to be answered satisfactorily.
September 7, 2009, 03:47 PM
Cool. Thx MBC.
You added to my useless smartass wisdom :)
September 8, 2009, 05:44 AM
September 8, 2009, 01:26 PM
From the other threads and sites that I have researched the TT-33 are slightly better than the CZ-52's. As for the different 33's the Romanian's are better than the Polish ones for accuracy. Not too sure about the Yugo's that hold 9 rounds instead of 8.
September 8, 2009, 03:29 PM
I was just thinking the other day we needed a modern pistol that fired 7.62x25. The problem with the TT-33, the CZ-52, and certainly the C96 is that they're not really...practical.
September 8, 2009, 07:52 PM
The TT-33 is one of the most "practical" pistols ever. All it does is shoot and shoot and shoot.
September 8, 2009, 10:22 PM
I've never handled a Tok, so my vote goes to the CZ52. It's a good gun as long as you don't use the hammer drop setting on the safety. I carry mine cocked and locked and don't worry. Mine has an excellent trigger and I like the style of the pistol. Even thought he safety is small, I've never had a problem swiping it off to put the gun into action. Putting the pistol on safe is another matter all together. I have to either shift my grip or use my left thumb.
Star also made a .30 Mauser/7.62 pistol. I forget the model and don't know if many were imported. It was a nice pistol and handled like any of its brothers. If I could find one, I'd consider buying it.
chris in va
September 8, 2009, 10:33 PM
I had a CZ 52. It was completely, utterly horrible in every way. It shot 1' low at 20 yards, the sharp edges cut into my hands, ergonomics are dismal and I never trusted the decocker.
Get a TT.
September 8, 2009, 11:23 PM
My CZ52 was also a dog...very disappointing.
The Tok carries better as a CCW...I can easily thumb cock it on the draw. I prefer the Browning operating system. Plus, the Tok has decades of use in the toughest combat conditions imaginable.
September 8, 2009, 11:25 PM
Can you shoot surplus ammo out of the tok tt33 or do you have to worry about it being too hot or a machine gun load?
September 8, 2009, 11:33 PM
Can you shoot surplus ammo out of the tok tt33 or do you have to worry about it being too hot or a machine gun load? That's a hotly-debated topic. The CZ52 has a stronger mechanism but weaker chamber walls than the TT33. So the argument goes back and forth. As I understand it, the CZ52 will KABOOM with ammo that would be safe in a TT. However, a steady diet of hot ammo will wear out a TT faster than a CZ (unless, you know, it's too hot and the CZ blows up in your hand)
Now here's my question: What's the difference (if any) between a TT33 and a TTC?
September 8, 2009, 11:38 PM
My first Tok was a chinese made Vietnam bringback. Pitted, mis-matched...it had fired untold numbers of rounds before I got it. Still shot great with any ammo I tried, including the really hot chinese stuff that was available back then.
My current Tok is a Romanian, and romanian ammo is all I have shot through it.
I would not be afraid to load it with any 7.62x25 I found.
The Tok has been rebarreled to 9x23...not recommended for the CZ.
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