[Girodin]

I am starting a new Saiga 12 project. It has always been interesting to me that the saiga seems to draw out very strong feelings when discussed on this forum and others. For my part I like the saiga but see it as having some serious limitations in its stock form. Read my post in other saiga threads for my thoughts on the platform. I am one that believes many of the limitations of the saiga can be vastly and easily improved upon. This project is unlikely to be anything special but I though some of those less familiar or curious about the platform might find it interesting if I documented the changes I make and offered and evaluation of the enhancement they make.


I should start by saying that I view the saiga as a fighting shotgun. The goal of this project is to render the saiga a more useful fighting gun. This gun will see some casual clay shooting on my own property. I might hunt jack rabbits with it just for fun, and it might see some three gun shooting. It is not being built to be a clay gun, a hunting gun or a dedicated open class competition gun. The goal is to enhance it as a fighting shotgun with simple and relatively low cost modifications, to build the type of gun anyone could with minimal tools and skill.

I have owned/shot other converted saigas. I have also been shooting this particular stock saiga for a while now. These two facts have led me to compile a list of areas I would like to make improvements on.

Ergonomics: The ergonomics of the stock gun do not suit me at all. The gun is out of balance and overly front heavy. Another issue is that the grip is so far back the I can not reach the safety without completely removing my trigger hand from the grip. The current style of stock and grip makes supporting the weapon for reloads, or manipulating the bolt, etc more difficult as well.


The Plan: Restoring the gun to the configuration it was designed to be address both of these problem. I will move the fire control group (FCG) forward, add a pistol grip and a traditional AK stock. This will greatly improve the balance of the weapon and aide in handling and manipulating the gun. The safety will be less of a stretch but still further away than what I like. To make the safety selector lever more user friendly I will be adding a tab further to the rear of the lever so it can be reached more easily by my trigger hand. Another option would be a left hand side sliding safety. This is an improvement in ergonomics that allows one to use their thumb instead of their trigger finger to manipulate the safety but it requires the removal of the side mount and milling the receiver. It costs much more and requires much more work than tabbing the OME safety lever.

Mushy trigger: The stock trigger uses a funky wishbone linkage that allows the FCG to be further back for use with the sporter stock. This was all done to be able to legally import the saiga into the US . The result of this linkage is a trigger that leaves much to be desired. Although it might present less of an issue on a shotgun than a rifle there is still benefit in a better trigger, one with less creep, and a less mushy feel.

The Plan: When the FCG group is moved I will replace it with a Tapco G2 FCG. Prior to installing this new FCG, I will polish it as well. The result should be a vastly improved trigger, one with a much smoother and cleaner pull and a crisper break.


Phase 1:

I began a basic conversion. The info with picture and video is readily available on the web so I didn't document this too closely or take photos.

I ordered a tapco standard legnth butt stock, a saw PG, and a Tapco G2 fire control groupmodified to fit the S12 with the bolt hold open. I also ordered a S12 specific retainer plate. The retainer plate is my prefered method for instaliing the G2 FCG.

I used the following tools:
Drill press
3/16" carbide drill bit
1/4" carbide drill bit
Dremel with a grinding tip
Needle nose pliers.

Nothing special. Getting the gun down to the barreled reciever took all of 20-30 minutes if that. I then preped the bottom of the reciever by sanding and degreasing and taped it off and painted the bare metal with engine paint. I plan a full on paint job latter but I have used this engine paint method before and it holds up well. It is not a perfect match but because of the location and the fact that the PG, trigger guard, and magazine are all down there it really is not noticable unless you flip the gun upside down and stare at it. A perfectionist would not like it but from a function standpoint it gets the job done and is cheap and easy. I'll post pics of the painted reciever bottom latter.

I then set about to smooth up the action and trigger. I used my dremel and a polishing stone tip I also used a stone by hand to polish the following areas:

-The bottom of the bolt. This area slides over the hammer when the weapon cycles as well as sliding over the top shell in the magazine. Some people cut the bolt and reshape the thing with their polishing to allow full magazines to be loaded more easily on a closed bolt. I did not do that. In fact I was not very agressivce in my polishing at all. I merely wanted to smooth things up. I may have the bolt reshaped later. Done improperly this can ruin the bolt and they are not easily replaced. Thus I lightly polished it but it made things much smoother. Running my finger over the polished bolt and another stock S12 bolt I have there was a very noticable difference.

-The bottom of the bolt carrier. It hits the same places as the bolt. Again my objective was simply to smooth everything out a bit

-the rails of the bolt carrier. Where the bolt carrier rides on the rails of the reciever I polished everything smooth.

-The rails of the reciever. Where the bolt carry runs back and forth on the rails of the receiver I polished them.

-FCG: I polished the back or the hammer where the bolt and bolt carrier hit it. I also polished the all the parts of the FCG that make contact with each other and where the hammer springs make contact with the trigger. The G2 alone makes a huge difference in the trigger pull. I am excited to see if the polishing makes a notable difference over the unpolished G2. I have an unpolished one I will use for comparision.

The polishing made everything feel much smoother to the touch. Upon reassabmly I will see if it made any percievable difference in the smoothness of the action and or trigger pull. It was very easy work and cost me nothing to do so I gues I am not out much if it doesn't seem to make a difference.

I have attached a picture of some of the polished parts.


In the next phase of this project I will reassamble everything and install a tromix DIY trigger guard. I will post more pictures and discuss why I used that part

[Magic_Man]

Some of us cannot add PGs due to state laws

[Norinco982lover]

I am very interested in your project and hope that you continue to post updates!

How do you like that tapco buttstock so far? My conversion parts order for my very first Saiga (a 7.62x39) should arrive today and I'm going to jump on into my conversion this week (hopefully).

I wasn't sure which buttstock to get but I hope that the tapco one will be decent enough for now.

Sounds like your conversion is going well.

Are you changing out the front handgrip?

~Norinco

[Girodin]

I haven't put the S12 back together yet lol so I cannot say how I like the stock on this S12. I have put it on other saiga builds though. Many people think the LOP is too short. If you shoot standing bladed off it probably is for many people. If you are more squared up as is often seen in tactical shooting then a short LOP often fits better. I plan to install some kind of butt pad (although the S12 really is a very soft shooter compaired to many shotguns) so that will give a little more length.

I seriously question the quality of tapco folders and collapsible stocks. However I have never had an issue with the standard stock. It is not the fanciest stock out there, and if I were doing a more complicated build with a bigger budget I would likely use a wleded on adapter plate and a magpull adjustable AR stock, or something like that. For cheap and easy the tapco fits the bill. The only complaint I really hear is that some people find them too short and prefer a NATO legnth stock. If it is too short consider a butt pad. You wont need it fo the recoil but it can improve the fit.

I'll try to get more pics up and evlauation of parts. Time is my biggest limiting factor. If I can free up saturday and its a big if I might try to take it dove hunting.

I have various other mods planned so stay tuned. I will be changing the handguard. I already have the new part. It will likely be phase III of this project.

[Norinco982lover]

Thank you for the reply.

What handguard did you go with?

~Norinco

[SN13]

The ergonomics are greatly improved with the restoration, as is the trigger. Those who think the stock is too short must be tall guys.... I actually Like the short stock for balance... the closer it is to me, the easier it is to handle.

Post More Pix!

Also, I assume you're on the Saiga-12 boards as well?

~SN

[Girodin]

What handguard did you go with?

Its a suprise. I will do a write up on that part of it fairly soon though.

Yes I am on the S12 boards, but I do not really post there much. I do however read there frequently. I have gleened a great deal of information from those boards and they were my original inspiration to buy my first saigas (I got a x39 and a .223 because I couldn't decide). The s12 boards are the source of information for saigas and have some very knowledgable posters. They are a treasure trove of saiga knowledge. They also keep me upto date on the many new and invovative saiga products that seem to be coming out with greater and greater frequency. I am admitedly a noob. As I stated this project wont be anything real inovative or special (one day I'd like to build a comp gun and I really want a SBS saiga) rather the objective is a simple easy buodl that renders a solid fighting shotgun. I hope it will be of interest to some people here though. I will try to get some more pics.

[MD_Willington]

Pay close attention to some of Cobras mods, he does the bolt carrier fix, ie machines it a tad so it does not gouge the rear block.

[Girodin]

I have considered sending it to Cobra for his mods actually. That is part of the reason I did not worry about getting too aggressive with any of my polishing. MD, do you have a link to what you are talking about so I can check it out though? I based my polishing of posts by Mike and Tony, I just kept it real light out of fear of ruining my hard to replace bolt. My main objective was just to smooth things up and see if there was a perceivable difference. I look forward to testing side by side with a stock gun and a non polished gun using the G2.

[Girodin]

Here are a couple more pictures. They show the polished parts of the bolt, the polished rails of the reciever and the "quick and dirty" paint job on the bottom of the reciever.

[Girodin]

Here is the paint job

[Norinco982lover]

What kind of paint did you use? Did you only paint the bottom? In my struggle during my first conversion last night I managed to scratch up the sides of my receiver pretty good (due to my own incompetence) so I kinda need a total paint job...perhaps I should invest in some duracoat supplies?

~Norinco

[THE DARK KNIGHT]

I painted my Saiga .223 with Duplicolor 500 low gloss black engine enamel, matches factory finish perfectly. Just remember to sand and degrease. If you spend more time painting then prepping, you're doing it wrong. If it scrapes off, just retouch it.

For a total paint job though, if you want it done nice go with duracoat or aluma hyde ii

[Girodin]

I plan to do a proper refinishing job later. To be honest it is probably down the road aways. I have several other function related mods I would like to do first. Like I said above it is an area I almost never notice unless I really look. Function wise the engine paint I have on it holds up well. Because I may be modifying the reciever later I don't ant to go to the effort to do a fullfinish job until that is done. One day though after I get my saigas all set up how I like them I plan to refinish them all.

[The Deer Hunter]

^Just make sure to keep the insides of that well oiled or even do a rough job just to cover up the raw steel.

[Girodin]

^Just make sure to keep the insides of that well oiled or even do a rough job just to cover up the raw steel.

I live where it is VERY dry and always wipe everything down with oil before I put things away. I dont imangine I'll have problems

[Girodin]

I finished the basic conversion and took a bunch more pictures.

I had planned to cut, reshape, and reatch the stock trigger guard and safety lever stop with either rivets or TIG welding. However I am so busy right now that I just ordered a tromix DIY trigger guard with safety stop.

For those who don't know Tromix, they are THE saiga specialist IMO. Tony is a great guy and has dispensed so much knowledge freely over the saiga boards that it makes me happy to buy one of hs products. Maybe one day I can get on his waiting list for a SBS.

The Tromix TG makes the job super easy and very fast. It is a matter of attaching three screws. If you can turn a allen wrench you are up to the task. I have attached so pics below so you can see how it mounts with the three screws, what it looks like and how the safety stop is incorperated. You will also note that the Tromix TG incorperates a pistol grip nut, these saves one the time of cutting a hole for the pistol grip nut in the reciever. The job is not that hard to do (Although I've seen at least on case of it being butchered) but not having to do so is a time saver and for those who are freaked out by the idea of cutting and drilling their gun it makes the job less formidable.

I could have attached the stock guard with screws but with the exception of some really well done ones I like the look of the tromix better. Again the tromix was a time saver and time is perhaps my most scarce resource right now.

When attaching the three screws a dab of blue locktite is probably a good idea and cheap insurance to make sure things stay where they should. Although I know of people who have just screwed them in and the thing has stayed put.

[Girodin]

There is one very minor issue with the trigger guard. You can see the srew with the flat washer; it can interfere with some stocks going intot the reciever all the way. This is the case with the stock I used. Getting around this issue was very easier, and much easier than certain alternate ways of mounting a TG. I simply notched out a small channel into the stock so it would seat all the way into the reciever.

The first pic is the gouge in the stock where it was hitting the screw. This was the mark I used to start grinding at the stock/

The 2nd pic is the offending screw

The third pic is of the notch I put in the stock

[Girodin]

If you are familar with saiga conversion you have probably heard of or experienced the dreaded bolt hold open (BHO) re-install. If you haven't then let me explain briefly. The saiga unlike most AKMs has a bolt hold open. It can be re-installed but there are some issues. One it is a PITA because it is a taske that seems to require four hands to get everything lined up get the spring in place etc. It also requires extra clearance on the hammer sleave to fit. IMO it takes up just enough space to make it much harder to get everything to fit. Many people simple scrap it.

I wanted the BHO on the S12 because I use it to keep the bolt back on a charged mag to stave of any possibility of top round deformation. There is another problem though and that is the fact that the BHO is in a fine location with the sporter stock and the FCG group moved to the rear. When the FCG group is moved forward the BHO nub that one presses up to engage it is in the way of one's trigger figger. You can still shoot the gun of course but to me it is uncomfortable and annoying.

There are a couple of solutions. One is to notch the safety lever and use that as a BHO. I may due that in the future. At this point I used another option. I grinded down and rounded off the little nub. You dont want to make it too short or it could get stuck in the engaged position. I believer that I left enough to prevent this but will be testing it out to make sure.

This BHO install was 100x more difficult that the last one I did. I got everything lined up only to find that there was no freaking way the safety could go back in. I tried various things and then pulled out the last one I had done and found that the BHO was a different shape. The safety was not going in. I probably should have just notched the safety at this point but I didn't. Instead I ground on the safety and the BHO until everything fit. If you do that make sure you know how the safety works so you dont take material off the wrong part. I then painted the bare metal on the safety lever. The extra clearance let things go in.

I should have painted the BHO but I didn't. I was in no mood to take it all apart after I finally go it together either. I may do it later or I may just notch the safety anyhow.

Here are some pics of the BHO and and the little nub exposed after the install. I shoul have taken a before pic so you could see how much material I took off but I didn't. This pic doesn't show where I ground it to allow the safety lever to be installed. I also polished the nub for to make it more comfortable. The results are good it doens't interfere with my trigger figure now.

[Girodin]

I actuall removed a fair amount more than is shown in the pic of the BHO alone. I took more off of the front but didn't really make it any shorter.

This pic shows another angle and also gives a better look at the safety stop of the tromix TG.

[Girodin]

There are videos of the BHO install (along with the FCG) on youtube. The one by CSS shows what is invloved fairly well.

THe next thing I did was adressed the holes in the reciever where the axle pins for the old FCG are. The pro way to deal with them is to weld them up sand it down and refinish then reciever. I may do that latter. For now I filled them with nylopn hole plugs. You can get them at home depot for $1. The go in the holes and look like rivets. They match the gun very well. It gives a great look for a very small price and very little effort. I prefer them to everything save a proper weld and refinish job.

The first pic shows the holes. The second shows one hole filled and the last one is what it looks like when you are done. You can also see the baggy with the little hole plugs in the top right corner of the 2nd pic if you are wondering just what they are.

[Girodin]

One you have the FCG in reassably is very easy from there. Screw the pistol grip on. Put the stock in and screw it in place. Re-attach the foregrip. Put the bolt and bolt carrier in. Replace the recoil spring and pu the dust cover on and you are all done.

Here she is:

[Girodin]

One last pic. I stated earlier with everything installed the paint difference on the bottom was less noticeable. Here is a pic to show that. Note that the flash makes it lookl more pronounced than in natural light

[Girodin]

I'll write a review of the changes latter when I have more time. For now I will simply say the difference is very pronounced.

[post_apocalyptic]

Hey Girodin.. your conversion restoration looks to be a clean, simple one. Nicely done.

I'm a regular over on the Saiga-12 forum... since that forum is down, (and has been since yesterday, damn it), I'm here.

I took the road less traveled with my restoration.. no easy Tromix DIY triggerguard for me, I cut a pistol grip hole in the receiver myself... and drilled a couple extra holes to mount the ak-builder triggerguard I chose to go with. I like the results, but it was definitely more nerve-wracking than using that solid, proven, easy Tromix part.

[MD_Willington]

Sorry in a hurry: http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=33224

The deal is, at the back of the carrier, the firing pin protrudes, so as the weapon cycles, the protruding pin slams into the rear trunnion, Cobra fixes this.

[Girodin]

The deal is, at the back of the carrier, the firing pin protrudes, so as the weapon cycles, the protruding pin slams into the rear trunnion, Cobra fixes this.

Sorry if this is a dumb question but it wasn't clear to me from reading the thread you posted. Is he modifying the bolt or the trunion? What exactly is he modifying? Sorry for being so slow.

Also, and I am not trying to be difficult just seeking info, how big of an issue is that for a gun fired on the proper gas setting? It seemed the damage on his gun might well have come from firing many mangum loads on gas setting two. Also as I am sure you are aware some guns are over or undergassed from the get go, ie over gassed shoot even light low brass bird shot loads on one and undergassed wont them on 2. Provided the gas setting is dialed in, say with a gunfixer plug, will one see the type of wear exhibited in those pics?

[Norinco982lover]

Looks great! I finished mine this weekend as well:D One question, the nylon hole plugs I got (CSS) have to be completely smashed and hammered into the axle pin holes to go in...they look stupid now...do you think I have the wrong size?

I think the BHO is a good idea for the Saiga-12...I don't need it on my 7.62x39 tho so I didn't get it.

Good job.

~Norinco

[Girodin]

the axle pin holes to go in...they look stupid now...do you think I have the wrong size?

Im not sure. To be honest I don't know what sizes they come in. I did run into one little hitch on the hole plug install this time around. On one side bith poped right in no probelm. On the other side I samshed about five of them and they just woudn't go in. I finnally just mad the holes slightly larger and then they popped in no problem. If there is no way they will go in then you might see if you can locate plugs of a different size or make the hole fit the plugs better.

[Norinco982lover]

What did you use to make the hole bigger? Dremel?

[Girodin]

Yes, the dremel I just went slow taking of a little material until they popped in like the first two. I have never needed to enlarge the holes before. That said, one thing I have learned doing a few different conversions and owning various saiga's is that each one seems to be a beast unto itself. The QC is loose and is the tolerances on the deisgn so it seems they vary a fair amount one to the next. That is why I avoid ever stating definatively what a stock saiga will or wont do etc.

[Girodin]

The conversion process can offer a host of benefits. I chose to highlight four of them here: balance, ergonomics, trigger pull and looks for me the major one is the improvement made in these respects. I have another S12 that is still in stock form so I was able to make some comparison side by side. I also allowed others to handle them and probed for their opinion. I did this with people familiar and not so familiar with guns.

Balance

The converted saiga has much better balance. The stock gun is front heavy. Holding it one handed with the sporter grip makes this very noticeable. Mag changes, opening a door or anything else that requires holding the weapon with the firing hand in position is MUCH easier with the PG installed where it was designed to reside. This difference was evident to all who handled them side by side. The difference really is significant and vastly improves the gun.

Ergonomics

Another improvement on the converted gun is that with the grip in the proper place the safety is actually within reach. Those famillar with the AK safety selector will know that it still is not the most ergonomic design devised, but being able to reach it without completely removing my trigger had from the grip is nice. On a related note I plan to install an extended mag release. That part would not offer the same advantage on a stock gun.

The gun is overall a slightly more compact package. I don’t have them in front of me to measure (I can do it latter) but the difference in OAL is likely a few inches. Fit of course varies person to person but in handling them the converted gun feels good to me.

Trigger Pull

Another night and day improvement was in the trigger pull. The discerning shooter will immediately notice the mushy trigger created by the wishbone linkage used to move the FCG to the rear. Some will contend that on a shotgun the trigger doesn’t matter much. It may not matter to the extent it would on a precision rifle but I still prefer something better than the spongy stock unit. The tapco G2 provides a vastly superior trigger pull. If the stock unit is a ford pinto the G2 is a BMW. It is lighter cleaner and much crisper. It was another difference than was easily noticeable by anyone who handled both guns. I have heard saiga owners say that their triggers are fine, they have never felt a G2. I am not sure to what degree the polishing affected it. I need to test it with another one of my converted guns.

Looks

Yes I said this project was to make a fighting gun and looks don’t matter too much in that respect. I concede that point. If the sporter configuration was the better fighting gun I would have left it. I would not sacrifice looks for practicality but in this case they were able to go hand in hand. I simply think the PG configuration looks cooler. My informal polling suggest that is the majority opinion. I like pulling out a converted S12 and having people ooh and awe; is that so wrong? In sum, I think the converted s12 looks cooler and while that might not mean much in practical terms it makes me happy.

Conclusion

I am pleased with the first steps of this project. The gun is already a more usable tool. It is better balanced, has better ergos , a clean crisp trigger and just looks much cooler. Additionally I can legally run 8, 10 or 12 round mags (or the MD20 if I were so inclined). Higher mag capacity (to a point) is of significant benefit in a fighting gun. The modifications were very afforadable. Were one to proceed only to this point, it would be a worthwhile venture. Below is a rough cost summary of what I paid to get it to this point.

S12: $450

Stock: $30

PG: $20

FCG: $30

Tromix TG $45

Retainer plate $12

Hole plugs $1

Misc: $10

I am into it nearly $600. Dollar for dollar I think the converted gun is much better at $600 than the stock gun at $450. The place where price really starts to sneak up on you is in mags. Mags are part of what makes a saiga a saiga but they are expensive.
I hope to do a little three gun-esque shooting in a couple weeks and compare it to a 18” pump gun and for fun a coach gun. It ought to be interesting to compare them against the clock and the subjective impressions of various shooters.

[Girodin]

Part II
The basic conversion is complete and I am fairly happy, but not satisfied. There is still room to make a lot of significant improvement on the weapon. I am building this as a fighting gun. I am one that believes that a fighting gun needs a light. With that in mind I had been searching for a way to mount a light on saiga. While I was searching, Chaos (http://www.chaosus.com/home.html) advertised a sale on their quad and tri rails for the S12. Chaos had built a solid reputation for producing quality product and with the rails on sale for $99 my interest was piqued. This rail is currently on sale again BTW.

The rails are made from 6061 aluminum with a non-reflective Hard coat anodizing. They are manufactured in the US. The tri rail is simply the quad rail sans the top piece. The quad rail is the same price as the tri, so I decided to get it. The quad rail will block the factory sights, but I figured it would still be nice to have the top piece in my parts bin should I want to use it later.

http://www.chaosus.com/quad-rail-enlarg.gif

http://www.chaosus.com/rail%20render.jpg

http://www.chaosus.com/tri-rail-enlarg.gif

Upon receiving the rail I hurriedly unpacked it. The first thing I noticed was how light it was. I was worried I might be making the gun nose heavy after having just improved the balance. Holding the rail dissipated my fears. The quad rail weighs in at 14 ounces. Within five minutes of opening the package, I had the trial rail mounted (most of the time was spent trying to locate my tools someone hadn’t put away). I was really pleased with the look. I set the top rail on and liked how it looked. It blocked the factory sights however and so I didn’t bother to screw it on.

The rail appears to be well made and it looks good. Again looks are not what I am after per se, but this rail gives the shotgun a more serious and polished look than the stock plastic unit. In light of the fact that looks don’t matter I have remounted the OME hand guard for now. It is more comfortable than the bare rails. I am still deciding what exactly I want to mount to them. I am not looking to be so tactical that my rails have rails. Rather I will keep it simple. A light, some rails covers and possibly a vertical fore grip are what I am considering right now. After I pick those items up I will remount the rail. I am undecided but I am leaning towards a stubby VFG. The S12 obviously has more recoil than an AR and thus a quality grip is required. I'm eying a tango down stubby, but am undecided.

I'll post some pics of it mounted later.

[rogertc1]

Here is my Sagia-12. I have three 12 rounds mags and a 20 rd drum too. I just got it back from warrentee repairs due to FTE's

[Diamondback6]

For a "Fighting Saiga", if you haven't already you really need to read MHI and check out Abomination. (Around page 260-270ish, IIRC.)

[Girodin]

I finally got around to taking some pictures of my new chaos rail.

Here is the stock fore grip
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=106702&d=1254858182

TO remove the stock unit one needs only remove one screw and then slide it off. Sliding it off might require a little coxing with a rubber mallet.
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=106703&d=1254858192

Here is the quad rail and below is the lower section that can serve as a tri rail on its own.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=106706&d=1254858215

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=106708&d=1254858242

Here is a before shot

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=106709&d=1254858249

And after
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=106705&d=1254858208

I am not currently running it is a quad rail however. The top section blocks the factory sights. Furthermore I have nothing to put up there right now and thus it would only be dead weight in addition to blocking the sights. I am using only the lower tri rail section. The two pics below show the tri rail alone.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=106707&d=1254858235

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=106704&d=1254858199

[Girodin]

Thus far I am happy with the chaos rail. Although I haven't been able to really test it out. In the next update I will be adding some accessories to the rail, a light, a VFG and some rails covers. I have the light but am waiting on UPS to bring me the rail covers and the VFG.

[THE DARK KNIGHT]

Ugh, not that CHAOS mall ninja crap. At least get the SGM forearm with rails.

[Girodin]

Why do you call the chaos rail mall ninja crap and think that a plastic one is ok? What would the SMG offer me that the Chaos doesn't? If the rail mounts up solid, is in spec and allows me to put a vert grip and a light on it then it is doing what I want. I guess I am not in the loop enough to know that one brand would be mall ninja and another would be OK. If a functional rail is "mall ninja" to you then so be it. To me the measure of equipment is how it works not what some random NJ internet guy, who cannot even own 2/3 of the guns I own, calls it. Thanks for your input though. Next time I'll make sure I ask what products will let me sit at the cool kids table instead of simply finding one that works, does what I need, and that I like.

[hhmorant]

Girodin, I'm curious about the Chaos rail. It looks like it's angled down from the receiver going towards the muzzle (not parallel to the barrel/bottom of the receiver). Is this noticeable in person?

And does it attach by slipping into the receiver and then screwing into the sling swivel hole on the barrel?

I'm mostly interested in it as an optics mount.

[Girodin]

I'll have to pull it out and look at it. I see what you are talking about in the pic with the red backdrop. I actually didn't have it screwed on for that picture I just slide it in to the receiver and proped the gun up/ I never noticed anything just looking at it before though. I should mount it on my other gun as well to see. The tolerances on saigas are so loose that no two guns seem to be the same ( I have owned several).

And does it attach by slipping into the receiver and then screwing into the sling swivel hole on the barrel?

Yes

I'm mostly interested in it as an optics mount.

I might use the top rail as an optics mount at some point. That is why I went ahead and got the quad rail. There are members over on the Saiga boards who use it as an optic mount. They could give you better input than I can. I will say it seems like it would be a much better solution than a receiver side mount. They put the optics up way to high for my liking. I know some people like the optic further back, if I wanted that I would do one of two things get the top section that extends back over the dust cover (but does not touch it), or use a beryl style rail. Jack Travers has a fast fire on the dust cover of his competion gun. I am interested in the exact set up. It is a sweet gun and based on the rest of the gun, his shooting, and his other products, I cannot imagine him using a hokey mount or anything that doesn't work well.

EDIT TO ADD NEW INFO
This is the mount that is used on his gun http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com/servlet/-strse-311/Saiga-sight-mount-JTE/Detail?sfs=3f2e39c3

The pics at the begining of this thread show it better. http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=43434&view=&hl=%22burris%20fast%20fire%22&fromsearch=1 It is not mounted to the dustcover but rather to the receiver.

[hhmorant]

Thanks for the reply. I thought I remembered someone else saying that the Chaos rail wasn't quite parallel to the barrel, maybe due to variations in the individual guns?

Like I said, I was looking for an optics mount, and thought the Chaos rail looked sturdier than an Ultimak.

[THE DARK KNIGHT]

Why do you call the chaos rail mall ninja crap and think that a plastic one is ok? What would the SMG offer me that the Chaos doesn't? If the rail mounts up solid, is in spec and allows me to put a vert grip and a light on it then it is doing what I want. I guess I am not in the loop enough to know that one brand would be mall ninja and another would be OK. If a functional rail is "mall ninja" to you then so be it. To me the measure of equipment is how it works not what some random NJ internet guy, who cannot even own 2/3 of the guns I own, calls it. Thanks for your input though. Next time I'll make sure I ask what products will let me sit at the cool kids table instead of simply finding one that works, does what I need, and that I like.

I'm not a fan of rail in general, especially not on a shotgun. The only accessories I can see mounting on this gun would be either a light and/or vertical grip. Lasers and scopes etc. on a shotgun are mall ninja, even more so on CHAOS gear, makers of the infamous mall ninja "porky pine" device. sorry to break it to you. You did a good job on conversion but would ave been better off with the very comfortable stock forearm, the russian stock forearm which features a single rail on the bottom and is identical to the one that comes on the gun, or the SGM Tri rail which is a very simple, comfortable hand guard that has enough rail room to put a light and VFG if you wanted. The only thing worse than the CHAOS rail, IMO, is the HALO rail. You said you wanted something to get the job done, and not care about brand? SGM gets it done for $69, Intrafuse gets it done for $41, and they both not only can mount your equipment but are much lighter and more comfortable than the $99 CHAOS. I'm just a Kalashnikov purist (the simpler the AK the better) offering constructive criticism.

And yes, the CHAOS has issues with being parallel to the bore.

I also really don't care what guns you get to own in your state. We get to own Saigas here in Jersey so I have a good deal of experience with them myself. And if you really don't care what "random internet people" think of your guns, you probably shouldn't have posted 1,079 times on an internet gun forum telling people about your guns.

[Diamondback6]

So does that mean Abomination's a mall-ninja gun because of its quad-rail? I was thinking about the KCI rail, myself...

[THE DARK KNIGHT]

I guess what I'm saying is, on a pump gun, anything besides a light, shell holder, sling or a VFG is mall ninja, but for some reason, on the Saigas, that rule goes out the window, and I have no clue why.

[tkopp]

If you know something's wrong with the quality of the product and want to give him a heads up, that's one thing. For example, a muzzle break on a Roadblocker that sends shot out sideways, or a UTG rail prone to breaking. That's a perfectly reasonable criticism.

Arbitrarily awarding or subtracting style points from what's presumably a functional tool is a little silly. If he likes it and it works, great. His innovation may teach you something. It may not. The only way to know is to sit back, watch, and see how it works out.

As to why the fashion police don't rain on the Saiga parade -- it's a funky new variant of the AK47. There isn't a legacy to threaten. It's novel enough that it's enjoyed mostly as a tactical toy that can be shoehorned into a variety of roles, and unwieldy enough that it hasn't really threatened any of them. I'm cautiously optimistic. The Saiga trend may spur innovation in a market that hasn't really budged in 50 years. I'm looking forward to seeing what happens.

[Girodin]

I'm not a fan of rail in general, especially not on a shotgun.

Then don't put rails on YOUR gun.

the only accessories I can see mounting on this gun would be either a light and/or vertical grip.

Hmm seems like that's what I stated I was planning on mounting on it. I am confused as to why you are bothering to comment.

Lasers and scopes etc. on a shotgun are mall ninja, even more so on CHAOS gear, makers of the infamous mall ninja "porky pine" device. sorry to break it to you.

I'm not planning on putting a laser or a scope on it. I might put an optical sight on it when I shoot 3 gun since the saiga has to be in open class anyways. I am sure you think that an optical sight makes no difference, but why do the top competitive shooters use them?

I agree the spikey poking device is silly. If someone else wants to buy it or has a purpose for it great I don't. The fact that a company makes one product I don't want or see a point to does not equate to them automatically having no other worthwhile products. Essentially I wanted an in spec rail to put a light and a VFG on. That is what I got.

I have handled/owned/used the forearms you suggest. I wanted to try the chaos rails as much because it is different from what I have used on my other guns. I have handled a pretty wide variety of products available for saigas. I have owned/own 7 S12, a S410, a S308, and three saiga 7.62X39s, *edited to add my .223* a .223 and I have an order in for the new 5.45x39. Additionally of the people I shoot with regularly 4 or 5 of them own at least on saiga. I have handled a few different types of forearms. How much experience did you say you had with the saiga? I really don't need your opinion of what to put on my gun, but thanks for the unsolicited advice. In short, I am happy thus far with the Chaos rail. After I get to shoot it a lot if I feel it is not as functional as other setups I own or have used I will replace it.

And if you really don't care what "random internet people" think of your guns, you probably shouldn't have posted 1,079 times on an internet gun forum telling people about your guns.[/QUOTE

You really think that all 1, 079 post are me telling people about my guns? You didn't consider that even one of those posts might have had another purpose? Interesting.

[QUOTE]I'm just a Kalashnikov purist (the simpler the AK the better) offering constructive criticism.

Based on your first post, I suppose we have different definitions of constructive. Your dislike for Chaos is duly noted however. Thanks for the input.

I guess what I'm saying is, on a pump gun, anything besides a light, shell holder, sling or a VFG is mall ninja, but for some reason, on the Saigas, that rule goes out the window, and I have no clue why.

I was unaware there was a hard and fast universal rule of the universe as to what is "mall ninja." If you are trying to refer to what is widely considered non useful items by serious shotgun users, I don't think many put VFG on pump guns. The accessories that are useful on a gun has much to do with how it will be used. That said not everyone finds the exact same equipment useful even for the same types of tasks or shooting. I set up a competition gun differently than a HD gun (or a carry gun if we are talking pistols). Use what works for you for doing the job you want to do. If the job you want to do is just having fun buy whatever you like.

Is the chaos rail as good as some of the other options? I don't know yet I haven't been able to shoot the gun enough, bang the thing around, etc and evaluate it vis a vis the other setups I have used or seen in use. There is only one thing I am more certain of than the fact that I don't yet know, and that is that you certainly don't.

I typically place little stock in people's opinions about things that they have no experience with.

[post_apocalyptic]

Girodin, I think you'll get a lot more constructive criticism, (from people who actually know what the hell they're talking about), over at forum.saiga-12.com

There are dozens if not hundreds of members there who have extensive experience with Chaos railed handguards.

[seanie!]

Looks good man. I'm waiting on all the shotgun guys to start making more rifle parts. I wouldn't mind dropping $100 on a quad rail from Chaos if it fit on my .223.

[Gibbles]

I love my saiga 12
I used a MAA internal block (requires the rear tang to be cut off), Ace side folder adapter, and a MAA billet aluminum stock.

(Wifes cat HAD to be in the picture :rolleyes: )
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w88/Gibbles1221/Firearms/S12folder.jpg

This shotgun is lots of fun. :D

[Girodin]

I made some additions and best of all I finally got out and shot it this last weekend. When I have some free time I will give a run down on the new parts, post some pics and write a range report. In the mean time it suffices to say I was well pleased with how things have turned out so far.

[post_apocalyptic]

I'm glad to hear you're liking your restored S-12, Girodin. I love mine... she's by far my favorite firearm to take plinking.

Here's a couple pics of my S-12.

[Girodin]

I like that stock, and is that a CAA grip? How do you like the tromix charging handle?

[Gibbles]

That polly choke is really long, I keep thinking about buying one, but I think if I ended up using it I would have my barrel cut down and the choke welded on the end to make 18.5inches.

I saw they just started making win choke adapters, I may get one of those instead.

[post_apocalyptic]

That polly choke is really long, I keep thinking about buying one, but I think if I ended up using it I would have my barrel cut down and the choke welded on the end to make 18.5inches.

I saw they just started making win choke adapters, I may get one of those instead.
You're right, the vented Polychoke II is pretty long. Since taking those pics, I've sold it, and have a shorter, non-vented Polychoke on the way.

[post_apocalyptic]

I like that stock, and is that a CAA grip? How do you like the tromix charging handle?
Yep, that's a CAA UPG-47 grip. I like it pretty well, but will most likely replace it with one of Mike Davidson's grips when he releases em, (beginning of next year). The stock is an ACE Ultra-lite modular, and I love it. Less is more with this design.

I like the Tromix bolt-on charging handle quite a bit too. It makes the charging handle less "pointy" and with it installed, it's comfortable to charge the weapon from any angle, with any combination of digits.

[Girodin]

Well here are the promised pics. I don't have time to do any kind of real write up, but I will try to do it latter. I added the following parts

Tango down "stubby" VFG w/ quick release

Streamlight TLR 1

Magpull black ladder rail covers

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=107314&d=1255655926

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=107316&d=1255655936

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=107317&d=1255655945

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=107318

[Gibbles]

Looks nice, are you planning on upgrading the tapco fixed stock?

When I first got my shotgun I picked up one of those for a cheap basic conversion, then I did the side folder.

MAA has a billet stock for about $50, and their internal adapter is about $45.

[Girodin]

Looks nice, are you planning on upgrading the tapco fixed stock?

Probably in time. It works and I had one in my AK parts bin so it made sense to use it, but I am thinking I might use this

http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com/catalog/aktubethumb.jpg

it is a tube that allows that allows use of an AR stock without needing to cut the tang, etc.

I would like to put a magpull stock on it like this one (allow not forcedly this exact one

http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com/catalog/2359436.JPG

The two combined

http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com/catalog/2359438.JPG

I actually will probably use this set up on a rifle project I will be starting soon and see how I like it. It runs a little more than some setups but people seem to like them. I have also considered a folder. For now the basic tapco stock is fine. It is functional and that is what matters most to me. Honestly, I probably wont change it real soon. I would like to make some other modifications to the gun to improve the ergonomics and make it more functional. I have at least five more big modifications or additions planned. After that I'll perhaps change the stock. I am also wanting to build an AK SBR which I might do first and the afore mentioned .223 project that has been on the back burner for a while.

[Gibbles]

Not bad, I thought about that to keep things simple.
Switching from AR to shotgun may go a little more smooth..
But in the end I decided I wanted to beable to make my shotgun shorter, two main reasons, I can use the shorter case that does not look like a gun case for my neighbors... and I can also shoot with the stock folded for the unknown with 3gun...
I read about guys that had to shoot from the inside of a car for a stage and having the folding stock helped them, I don't see our group ever having something like that, but it's nice to have options. :)

What I really wanted was the orignial style side folder, but that would require lots of mods to the gun... to much work for me. ;)

[ThePants]

Looks good Girodin, nice job! I'm going to be restoring my Dad's Saiga-12 for him soon and this is almost exactly what I had in mind. The quad rail is a nice touch especially with the VFG and light, it shows the usefulness of it. Ignore the haters, for some reason every time someone puts a quad rail on a Russian gun someone has to cry Mall Ninja. If it works it works.

[Girodin]

I have yet to meet any "AK purists" that use their gun for anything besides plinking. When I had occasion to be around Polish military guys their AKs looked like this.

http://www.ak-47.us/pic/poland/00-beryl-014.jpg

Check out these mall ninja's.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f4/WP_Mini-Beryl_EOTech.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/DavePAL84/projects/NewBeryl41.jpg

The fact is the AK design is great but readily improved upon. Further talking about being a purist is pretty laughable on a Saiga shotgun that is a its self of recent origin and total non tradition.

I modify my guns to serve my purposes. Rails let you add useful things to the gun. Not being willing to make a weapon more capable, or aquire training to properly use useful gear out of dogmatic "traditionalism" is just as stupid as weighing it down with too much junk and not having the skills to use the equipment. Of course neither group uses their guns for any purpose where it will matter so I guess there is no real harm done in either case. I did enjoy someone who owns one saiga (and not a shotgun) informing me that they know all about them and further that they know better than me what I ought to put on my S12. Oh well that's the internet for you (well I would actually expect to encounter that in a gun shop too)

[Diamondback6]

Bingo--the lesson is "outfit your gun so it's useful for you"--just like techniques, tools aren't "one size fits all" either.

The critics? Heck with 'em--when the balloon goes up, they won't be in the same situation as you are and won't be the ones using your iron.

[Norinco982lover]

Yours looks sweet! I just finished my conversion and while it isn't a S-12 (yet:P) I wanted to show ya.

I used the CSS internal adapter and an ACE FX stock I picked up used at a gunshow. Since I wanted to keep the stock handguard I asked Nalioth how to properly mount a rail to the bottom of it and he gave me a GREAT tip: use a piece of metal (I used a drive bay cover from the back of my desktop) on the INSIDE of the handguard/forearm and to sandwhich the rail to the handguard. With the bolt and nut holding on the rail it is extremely sturdy. You will see it in the picture.

I may add a folding adapter at a later date.

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_-Md8K2jDlyk/StuVvdDtSFI/AAAAAAAAAgs/GjPxPdlXinU/s720/Group%20shot%20with%20Saiga%20025.jpg

[Girodin]

So I haven't updated the S12 for a while. I have been trying to write a range report but I have been so busy it is only half done. I did want everyone to know that I have a decent excuse for not working on the S12 lately, and it is pictured below.
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=108624&d=1257485795

It is a 5.56 with the stock mentioned above, a magpul MOE. It is far from done but is at least usable now. I plan to add a AR magwell relatively soon. I am also torn between buying a SGL-21, a Draco Pistol for an SBR or a sig P226. It is all taking time and money away from the S12. I did get a couple goodies for my favorite AK though. I will be adding them soon with short write ups and pics.

[Titan Ape]

Very nice, thanks for sharing.

[Girodin]

Here are the latest updates:

The hammer spring I had was really affecting the trigger pull. It either rubbed on the BHO or one spring leg would come off the trigger leg or both. I replaced it with the a standard power JTE spring from Carolina Shooter Supplies. The spring cost $15 and was worth every penny and then some. The trigger pull is greatly improved and it allows all of the polishing work to be felt now as well. The trigger is very smooth and breaks cleanly. I had considered going with the 25% reduced power spring but I also plan to add a tromix firing pin and spring. I have read reports that combing the two can cause light strikes. Reliability paramount on a weapon like this and it is simply not work compromising it. I need to go shoot it but still but I am very very please with the feel of the trigger now. I could still shim the trigger up to take out a small amount of take up and perhaps could modify it for slightly quicker reset but I am pretty happy with it as is and I think for the time being I will leave it be. The trigger is so much better than the factory pull that I lack the words to articulate the difference. I am ready to purchase these springs for my rifles too.

http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com/catalog/pix254989453.jpg

I then installed the tromix charging handle. It simply slip on over the stock handle and is held in place by a set screw (which should get some blue lock tight to keep it in place or if you were sure you didn't want to remove it I guess one could use red, but I am not that committed.) I really like the feel of this charging handle. It is larger and easier to get a hold of when one is trying to be quick. It also is more comfortable than the stock piece and its relatively sharp edges. I had it on the S223 above and it made me want it on the S12 as well. Additionally I like to keep a common feel between the carbine and shotgun. Here are some pics:

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=109000&d=1258090948

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=109001&d=1258090960[/IMG

[IMG]http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=109002&d=1258090969
The above pic is a bit blurry but the set screw can be seen.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=109003&d=1258091219

[Girodin]

I also decided to add the AR 15 stock to the S12. It is a CAA arms adapter with a MOE magpul stock, same as on the S223. I really like this stock. It feels better than the tapco (I guess it ought to at 5x the price). The tapco worked fine and it could have stayed but I prefer the magpul stock after shouldering it and handling the gun a bit. I still need to shoot it but I think it will stay. The adjustable legnth of pull is nice since the temperature and thus my clothing various greatly here. It should also be nice for when I let others shoot it. I may add a recoil pad but I do not think the S12 really needs it. Even with 3" magnum slugs and 000 buckshot I do not find it uncomfortable. Here are some pics of the new stock

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=109004&d=1258092077

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=109005&d=1258092088

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=109006&d=1258092095

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=109007&d=1258092103


I am really happy with how this gun has come together thus far. I have invest a fair amount of money over the price of a stock gun but the current configuration puts the stock sporter gun to shame. I look forward to shooting it with the newest upgrade.

Although the gun is a huge step up from stock and I really like it I still believe there are some important modifications yet to be made that will dramatically improve them weapon. I still have 2-3 big modifications in works and a few smaller ones. I believe I can still greatly enhance the ergonomics and handling of the S12 and most of the mods will revolve around that. I may make a few changes to enhance reliability and I still need to address the factory sights which leave much to be desired. And then there are always more mags to buy.

[ChileRelleno]

I very much enjoyed reading your thread, watching your progression and the end result... A nice S12.

Nice work!
................................

Allow me to share mine with you.

BEFORE
http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s190/ChileRelleno/Saiga12-1.jpg

AFTER
http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s190/ChileRelleno/100_5921.jpg
http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s190/ChileRelleno/100_6625.jpg

[Girodin]

I very much enjoyed reading your thread, watching your progression and the end result..

Thanks, I'm not done yet though.

Are those Krebs sights? How do you like them?

[ChileRelleno]

Yeah, they're Krebs, and I love'em.
Very accurate, sight pic is great, fast target acquisition and they look good too.

I shoot alot of slugs, and putting them on 8" round target at 50-75yards is as easy as farting.

[Girodin]

My bank account just took another decent hit and I'm waiting on the USPS. Hopefully I'll have some more goodies by the end of the week.

[ah64mech13]

I'm drooling over all of the projects. Can't wait to get Christmas over with and have the budget open up again, a S12 is definitaly on the (very long) wish list.

Great job everybody, and F* the "traditionalists." Its your gun, do what you want, unless it makes the gun mechanically unsafe, everybody else can pound sand if they don't like it.

[stealth]

You mentioned "I may make a few changes to enhance reliability", Have you had any problems?

[Girodin]

No I have had zero problems with this saiga from the very get go, with the glaring exception of Winchester bulk ammo from wal mart. When I have shot that particular ammo it runs roughly 3 out of every 5 rounds. This is genuinely a problem with the ammo. This ammo has been a problem in other guns as well. The federal bulk has run 100% as well as every variety of high brass load I have put through it. Many people report problems with the winchester ammo and it is simply best avoided.

Some people do have trouble running lighter target loads in saigas. The first thing to check for is to see if the gun has the right number of gas ports. Some guns were imported with only two ports. They will not run light loads. If you have one it will be warranteed. If the right number of ports are there, the next thing to do is check to make sure they are really open all the way.

If the gas system looks good but it is not reliable with light loads there are a few things that will generally take care of the problem. 1 "break it in" with heavy loads first. 2 alternately is to simply polish the bolt, bolt carrier, hammer, and rails, similar to what I have done here. 3 Another good option is the gunfixer gas plug. It gives a wider array of gas settings to dial in the right amount of gas. It is also a good cure for an over gassed gun.

At the time I wrote that I had a gunfixer plug and the polishing in mind. Despite no reliability problems I polished simply to have a smoother action. I will also likely add a gunfixer plug. The reason in my case is not really reliability issues but rather, I would like to be able to switch gas settings by hand and the gunfixer plug allows this. The factory plug requires some sort of "tool" like a quarter or cartridge rim. The hand adjustment alone makes the plug worth it to me. The wider spectrum of gas settings to choose from cannot hurt either.

There is talk of a self regulating plug being developed. That if it were reliable would be ideal. Right now the current gunfixer plug is a good investment for a S12 owner. I have not gotten it yet because my gun runs fine, but I will. For now I still want to concentrate on the ergos. There is definately more room for improvement there.

I wont address them with the stuff I am currently waiting for but it will probably be the next step. It will be mods that I think really help take the S12 to the next level and make it a much better fighting (or competition for that matter) gun.

I'm glad some people have enjoyed this thread or found it interesting. What I really wont to do is go shoot some 3-gun esque courses on the clock with this gun, a stock s12 and some other shotguns maybe a pump and a coach gun. I wanted to do so at each step of the project to get numbers and quantify the improvements to some extent. Sadly I simply have not had time to do that. I likely will not until December at the soonest. I will in time do so. I personally am very interested to see what the results would be and to do it with various shooters and see what the data shows. One day.

[Girodin]

I have had my newest S12 stuff for a while but not had the time to update this thread. With some time off for the holidays it is time to rectify that.

The saiga obviously is a box mag fed weapon. Its greatest stregnths and often the things it is the most vehemently critized for relate to that fact. Whether one believes that the box mags are part of what makes the S12 one of the top combat shotguns in the world or what make it a dud one thing is certain, without a mag the S12 is an overly complicated single shot. Without spare mags it has ten (5, 8, or 12 depending on the mags) shots and then is rather slow and complicated to reload. What that means is that if one wants to run a S12 they need mags. I am one that believes you can never own too many mags. I always like to own at least ten mags for any box mag fed weapon that I own. I'm not sure that there is anything magical about ten, it is just a nice round number, additionally it is often more mags than I can carry meaning I have plenty to use and some spares to boot.

I ordered my self 10 AGP 10 round mags. Mags are IMO part of what makes the S12 great. They are, however, not cheap and thus stocking up on mags adds hundreds of dollars to the end price tag. This is something to factor in when considering the S12.

I have a bunch of other AGP 10 rounders and they all ran great. Thus in the interest of keeping common mags (more on why this was an important factor for me later) and based on my previous experiences I decided on the AGP. It also helped that I was able to get a great deal on them and they cost my $12-$15 less per mag than surefire mags would have. When one is buying ten mags the difference adds up.

Unfortunately I took out the mags for some testing and two of them had issues. I have an idea of what the problem is but I need to test my theory before I make any claims. I'm hopeful that I can regulate the issue myself if not, I have read AGP has good customer service.

I have long been unhappy with the stock sights. They work but are fairly rudimentary. I have had a hard time deciding what sights I wanted to add. I have considered the Krebs ghost ring set up with the addition of a XS tritium post. I have also considered HK sights with a tritium front post. The Hk set up would run around $215 ($90 for the sights and $125 for the tritium front sight) and requires welding. The Krebs runs roughly $90 and the XS post is around $60 or $70 IIRC. I have seen some other setups but these two were the ones I was leaning towards.

I decided to punt rather than make a choice. I had the top rail to make my Chaos tri rail a quad. I ordered a Burris Fast Fire II and mounted in on the Chaos rail. I figured that I had another use for the Fast Fire if I didn't like it on the S12 or ultimately wanted a different setup.

Upon mounting the fast fire I found that it sat too high for my liking. If I maintain my typical cheek weld I cannot see the dot. If I raise my head it works fine but it is not the position that I am accustomed to.

Upon shooting with the fast fire I found what I have come to expect from red dot sights, target acquisition is quick and quick accurate fire is greatly facilitated. After shooting I was pretty happy with the red dot. I may try to add a raised cheek rest and see if that resolves my biggest issue with the optic. If I decide to keep it on the S12 I will also order a protector mount to shield the optic from damage it might otherwise have inflicted upon it.

Some people think that a red dot on a shotgun is silly. This thread is not the place for that debate. I will simply say that like most things it has its trade offs. I believe that in terms of performance, for the type of shooting this gun is intended for, a red dot is hard to beat. The flip side is that it is not as sturdy or reliable as iron sights. People will complain of the potential for battery failure. While it is possible the battery life of the fast fire is very long. Further at room distances simply looking through the rectal and centering the target is enough to get on on center mass of a humanoid target. Another factor on the con side changing the battery does require dismounting the sight so it takes some time. A big con that is particular to the way I have it mounted is that I have no back up irons. The top rail of the chaos quad rail covers the factory sights. Even if the sight can be quickly removed the top rail cannot.

I do like that the sight is very light weight. I also like the way the gun shoots with it on. I think a red dot is as fast a sight as anything it is definately faster than the stock sights. I have a fair amount of experience shooting with HK sights and the dot is faster that the open notch setting of the HK drum sight. The dot also allows for greater accuracy with slugs than a bead.

The fast fire has some pros and cons. Some of them are the general ones of an optical sight, others are specific to the fast fire, and others still to the way it is set up on. Ultimately I am not sure if I will keep this setup or not. I will most likely try to tweek it a little to get it more to my liking. Over all I am happy with the way it shoots and the sight is still on the gun and a big improvement over the crude factory open sights.

Here are some pics:

Here is the S12 with the Fast Fire mounted and 9 of the 10 mags plus the factory five rounder.
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=111696&d=1261734559

Here are some various views of the fast fire mounted up.
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=111697&d=1261734566

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=111698&d=1261734572

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=111699&d=1261734583

[Girodin]

Here is a pic looking through the sight

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=111700&d=1261734829

[Girodin]

I finally got some time to go shoot. I went to a private range with a friend and we set up a three gun style shooting stage. It was a course that took 15 shots if there were no misses. Distances were 7-40 yards and with most in the 15-30 yard range. The course required a considerable amount of movement requiring the shooter to move travel about 75 yards and required different shooting positions to engage the various targets.
We had several guns on hand carbines, shotguns and handguns. For shotguns there was my S12 featured in this thread, a Mossberg 500 and my friends Remington Spartan coach gun.

We both shot our fastest times with the S12. The fastest time for our little course was 40 seconds. The fastest time with the pump gun was 1:09. The pump gun tended to be very close in time on the first part of the course that had more distance to travel with the shots more spread out. The S12 pulled ahead at the end where there were more shots, and closer together. The fastest time with the coach gun was roughly 1:45. It should be noted that the Spartan had a stiff action, and in addition to lacking ejectors the shells would stick in the chamber so that dumping them out did not work at all they had to be pulled by hand.

We had a lot of fun and this type of shooting is great practice IMHO. What did I take away from this range session? I was reminded how much more fun this type of shooting is than simply plugging away on a square range or plinking around. It also was clear that the S12 was quicker than the pump gun. Several factors were at work to make it quicker. The first was faster follow-up shots. I have read that the S12 is the fastest cycling shotgun in the world. IDK if that is true but it is fast and more importantly it is such as soft shooter that it allows one to get back on target quickly. Second the added capacity (I was using AGP ten round mags) helped. The fast fire sight allows for quick target acquisition. I have debated the merits of dot sights and some will say a shotgun doesn’t benefit from them but they allow for the fastest sighting possible they also allow for more accuracy with slugs than a bead and more speed than open sights or ghost rings. In short there is a reason they are used by the top competitive shooters (3 gun) and are only allowed in open class. Do you need one for home defense, probably not. Are there other factors to consider beyond what is fastest? IMO, yes, but I’ll be leaving the dot on for now. The biggest reason for the difference in the times though was surely the reload times. The saiga takes one reload to shoot 15 rounds and that one reload if done smoothly is much faster than the combined reloading time to allow the Mossberg to fire 15 times. Reload times and frequency or reloads were obviously what put the coach gun so far behind the other two. Although, as I eluded to earlier, a tuned up double would have been faster

Some lessons specific to reloading can be gleaned as well. Bobbled reloads killed the times on a few runs with the S12. I had already decided to put a mag well on my S12 to allow for drop free mags and straight insertion. This addition would have made the S12 even faster. A mag well is probably one of the very best mods for the S12. It makes reloads easier and much faster.

All in all, it was a very fun day and evening (we did some night shooting as well). This type of shooting, in addition to being great practice, gives good insight into your equipment in terms of what works and what needs improving. I encountered two bad magazines that I need to work on, and as mentioned above, galvanized my desire for a mag well. I came away liking my S12 even more, and I believe it earned the respect of my friend since he had his fastest times with it as well. We shot a few hundred rounds and the saiga ran like a top. I had also put a 100rd box of federal wal mart ammo through it the last time I was out and not cleaned it. This S12 has proven a very reliable gun. I cannot wait for Santa to bring me a mag well and to get out and test it.

[Girodin]

Santa brought me a new part for my S12. It is IMO one of the best additions one can make to a Saiga 12, the JTE magazine well

http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com/catalog/2359468.JPG

I've got it installed and have modified a few mags to work with it. I have yet to shoot with it on but I have been getting a feel for reloads and I am pretty excited about how much quicker and easier they are.

I will probably make a few posts. The first will be an explanation of why I chose to add a mag well and why I believe it is such a major enhancement for the S12. Second I will try to post some pics and give a short write of the install and mag mods and last I will post a review of its performance and perhaps some side by side times of reloads and some shooting courses with the mag well installed vs the use of standard mags.

[ChileRelleno]

That is a very nice S12 :cool:
Great job.
.......................................

I'd love to add a Surefire compatible magwell... But.
I really love my MDArms 20 rnd drum, and it is not compatible :uhoh:
And since I plan on one more MD20, it ain't happening.

[EdLaver]

This is probably one of the best Saiga set-ups i have seen, congrats on the build.

For me though I have contimplated the use of one of these shotguns and where I get stuck is what would be the purpose of it? Sure for home defense, but a normal pump or semi-shotgun (Beneli or 930 SPX) would do the same. SHTF? Nah, I couldnt imagine carrying all those mags instead of a carbine with the same amount. To me, its kind of a niche weapon, it'd be great for competition though, they have been blowing the scene in three gun.

[Girodin]

I'd love to add a Surefire compatible magwell... But.
I really love my MDArms 20 rnd drum, and it is not compatible

I have heard this from a number of people and certainly understand it. I would not tell anyone they are wrong but I have included some of my thoughts on the issue.

Drum vs Mag well

Because of the size of the feed tower the MD 20, the famed 20 round drum, cannot be used with a mag well. I do not discuss the AA drum because it is inferior to the MD and comes from a very disreputable company. Honestly that drum is not worth discussion beyond that it should be avoided (for what it is worth I do not believe it works with a mag well either and often not even with unmodified guns). The mag well (at least the JTE) can be removed and one can run a drum, while this could be important say a three gun stage that requires fewer than 20 rounds and no slug transitions. It is of limited value, however, if one modifies their mags for a mag well since they will no longer work without it. Mags cost enough that few people will keep two sets. For most people the choice is between the benefits of a mag well, faster reloads, versus the capacity of a the MD 20.

This debate might hinge on what you want the gun for. If it is just for fun, then the MD 20 might give maximum smiles. For a fighting gun I believe the speed of the mag changes trumps the intitial capacity of the drum. Some would posit just the opposite. One argument is that having 21 rounds on tap would preclude the need for a mag change in many situations. That said the drum is heavy and big. For handling considerations I would rather have the mags and a mag well. Getting to a slug also means changing mags on the saiga, another reasons mag change speed might be more important than initial capacity.

Another major consideration is cost. The drum is expensive at $260. It is the price of several mags. For my purposes, I feel the mag well is worth precluding the use of the drum. In the end the cost and benefits of each need to be considered along with the purpose of the gun by the end user.

When MD Arms releases its new double stack mags and mag well the discussion might be completely moot. It could provide the best of both worlds. I was tempted to hold off on buying more mags and a mag well and await the release of these two products. The fact that there was no firm ETA and new products have a tendency to get pushed back I went ahead and got what is currently available. If a new better product is released I may change or use it on another gun.

[Girodin]

Why Install A Magazine Well?


There is a significant deficiency in the S12 that is rarely brought up when the gun is discussed, the difficulty of inserting a magazine on a closed bolt. Someone will probably say that it really isn’t that hard and that they can make fast smooth reloads on a closed bolt every time. They might even be telling the truth. The fact is, however, that the vast majority of people I have seen try to do reloads struggle. I have definitely gotten better and smoother with practice but inserting the mag must be done just so, and it is easy to bobble. My experience is when I am moving and shooting and doing so under pressure (the clock) it is even more difficult than when I practice in my living room. Ten round mags are more difficult than 5s and 3” shells more difficult than 2 ¾ shells.

If a major advantage of the saiga 12 is the speed with which it can be reloaded then that advantage is diminished by reloading difficulties. Conversely that advantage is made greater by speeding up the reloads. This difficult leads some people to simply take the time to lock the bolt back and then insert a charged magazine as the shooter in this video does http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2NLz-kgUoE . This works but eats up valuable seconds. If you were in actual combat those extra seconds are very precious. For the competitive shooter they can be the difference between victory and defeat.

What solutions exist to this problems? I have seen two. The first is to reshape the bolt. The problem with reloading on a closed bolt is that the shells must be decompressed in magazine, thus the mag has to go in at the right angle for that to happen. Relieving the bolt alleviates this problem. This mod works well. It offers additional advantages of making the gun cycle more smoothly and relieving pressure on shells left stored on a closed bolt. Its biggest disadvantage is that one can FUBAR their bolt if it is done incorrectly. I actually know of someone who did this. Saiga bolts are not impossible to find but they aren’t the easiest thing to find either. This is one mod I would likely be inclined to pay a pro to do. Jack Travers of JTE will cut and smooth the bolt and also hard chrome it. The hard chroming offers additional advantages, corrosion resistance and a very smooth surface for reduced friction. I do not remember the price but it was something like $125. Cobra 76 on the S12 boards will shape the bolt for $80 I believe. There is a thread on the s12 board where they debate their methods. For those interested in the differences, I would suggest reading this thread. If I can find it I will post a link otherwise try the search function or google.

The second solution is a mag well. One installs the magwell and modifies the magazines for “straight” insertion. This does away with the rock and lock motion required to insert AK mags. The mags also come out much easier. All in all, reloads are faster and much easier with the mag well. An important consideration of using a mag well is that they require the mags to be modified. Another is that mag wells preclude the use of the MD20 drum magazine. Also a mag well is likely to function better with one brand of mag or another. The JTE mag wells for example are made in an AGP version and a surefire version.

The mag well in sum allows one to insert a magazine on a closed bolt more easily and perform reloads more quickly and consistently. It is both easier and faster.

[Girodin]

*I'll add some pics of the magazine mods and the install later*

JT Engineering Magazine Well

I chose the JTE mag well for my gun, available for Carolina shooter supplies. It costs $125. Installing the mag well requires drilling and tapping 3 holes in the receiver. The most difficult part of that is making sure that the holes get put in the right place. To do this, one starts by first modifying a magazine to fit the mag well. I have APG mags, which require removing the side ridges, the front lug and the top front screw. When enough material has been removed that the mags will insert into the mag well set on the receiver the position of the front hole are is marked, punched, drilled and tapped. After checking for positioning and fit the two back holes are marked, , punched, drilled and tapped. The mag well is held in place by three hex screws. I’d recommend blue lock tight to keep them secure. It is not a very difficult install. I’d put it at a step above installing a bullet guide in terms of difficulty. The difficult part is bringing yourself to start grinding into an expensive magazine. My suggestion is go slowly and check for fit often.

Also don't get too aggressive trying to make them drop free or insert with the utmost of ease. If you remove too much material they dont seat properly and can have feeding problems. This is an easy problem to avoid by checking fit and regularly and stopping when they come in and out reasonably well. I pushed the limit with one trying to find where the line was and now I need to try to fix that mag. Don't worry though I only ran into that problem by deliberately pushing the limit.

[Girodin]

I'll try to get some install pics up soon and then post my evaluation of the product.

[bullturkey]

There is a third alternative. I simply drilled a hole through the top of the mag and inserted a cotter pin that has a small key ring on the end of it. The pin keeps the top round depressed so rock and lock is a breeze. I then simply pull the pin as I shoulder the weapon and presto all is good. This has the added benefit of preventing top shell deformation that happens when top round is pressed against the bolt when the mag stays in the weapon for any amount of time.

[Girodin]

I've seen the grenade pin used for purposes of storing a charged magazine on a closed bolt. I think it is a decent option for that, where one can have a designated mag and tie the pin off to something so that merely picking gun up is sufficient to make it ready to fire.

I'm sure it works well for allowing the mag to insert and appreciate that you mentioned it. It likely is faster than locking the bolt back as seen in the video above (which is now really there). The biggest advantage I see to this approach is that it is inexpensive.

I am not trying to disparage what works for anyone, but I see one issue. This still requires additional movements and actions as opposed to just needing to insert the thing. It adds a step to the manual of arms. For either a life or death situation (admittedly and hopefully that is very unlikely to every occur) or even competition simple is better and the simpler and faster the better IMHO.

A mag well is likely faster and simpler not only because there is no need to pull a pin
but also because the motion required to insert the mag is smaller and simpler. Mags also come out of the mag well more easily.

Additionally the mag well provides the benefit of re-enforcing the mag. I have seen reports of mags breaking of the front tab and I have even witnessed it once. This is thought to happen when a long mag is full of magnum shells and the weight and leverage overcome the tab. Some people suggest that cold weather may contribute. I have shot my AGPs (pre mag well) when it is roughly 15 degrees F and never had a problem. Who knows how likely a mag is to break but a mag well eliminates the possibility.

If I didn't want a mag well I would likely have the bolt modified. If money is very tight, however, the grenade pin idea might have some merit.

[bullturkey]

I agree with your last post. The simpler the better in a stress situation. A good training regimine is absolutely necessary with any firearm. When the SHTF you do not have time to think you fall back to your training. The Army pounded that into my head to the point that I could perform immediate action drills on my M16 in my sleep. My biggest problem with the S12 is the shell deformation that would happen in a matter of 8hrs that could cause a FTF. Does the bolt mod eliminate this? This is why I use the pin.

[Girodin]

the shell deformation that would happen in a matter of 8hrs that could cause a FTF. Does the bolt mod eliminate this?

Maybe. In my experience shell deformation varies. I've seen shells that will deform very quickly like you describe and others that have shown no significant amount of deformation after weeks of being loaded on a closed bolt. With that as a preface it has the potential to help with that problem but I would be uncomfrotable to promise that it would with all shells. I've seen some owners suggest that it does help but the question of what their starting point was in terms of how quickly shells deformed is not known to me.

None of the "duty" shells I use deform quickly enough for it to be a problem for me for the ammounts of time I leave a loaded mag in there. For those worried about shell deformation for a serious use gun that might see a loaded mag left on the bolt for a considerable ammount of time I think the most sound solution would be to find a type of ammo that does not deform and use that at lest for the top round of the loaded mag.

I want to reiterate I am not deriding the grenade pin, it sounds like it might serve your needs better than my set up would. It is simply that I think a different setup is better tailored to my particular needs and desires.

[Girodin]

Here are the pics I've been meaning to get uploaded for a while now.

Here is a front view of a modified mag next to a stock one. You can see the that the front tab is removed. I used a dremel to do it, I think a belt sander would be even better.

http://thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=114904&d=1265346090

Here is a side view that shows both how the front tab is gone and that area is straightened out and that the side ridges are removed.
http://thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=114905&d=1265346107

This picture shows the three screws that hold the mag well in place.
http://thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=114906&d=1265346114

Here is a close up of the mag well. You can see that I do not have an extended mag release installed in this picture. The extended mag release is nice to have and really useful with the mag well. Hopefully I can get some pics of it up soon too.
http://thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=114907&d=1265346124

Here it is with the mag inserted. One nice thing about the mag well is it reinforces the front area where the tab was. This is an area some people experience breakages when the mag is fully loaded and they are shooting magnum shells. I've seen it happen once. I've most often heard of it happening w/ 12 round surefire mags but have heard of it happening with AGPs. I've never experienced it but the mag well precludes such a problem at any rate

http://thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=114908&d=1265346141

[Girodin]

I am getting closer to being done. There are some things that still need to be done. There are also some things I still think would be pretty cool additions but I could live without.

I should be receiving a new part for it tomorrow and I will talk about it then.

The extended mag release really is needed, particularly with the mag well so I hope to get some pics of that up as well.

I wrote earlier about the fact that the optic sits too high for a good cheek weld. I do not like that. A jaw weld will work but I prefer the more natural and repeatable cheek weld. I ordered a riser for the MOE stock from magpul. It should ship tomorrow (along with my art of the handgun DVD set!!!!!!!!). I hope that this will rectify that issue to my satisfaction.

My other issue also involves the optic. I feel it is just too vulnerable the way it sits right now and so I would like to add a protector mount to armour it from the bumps and bangs that are sure to come through hard use. Alternatively I might go with a similar style mount that sits in the rear sight dovetail. The advantage of that would be that I could remove the upper section of the quad rail. It is not real heavy but it would save a bit of weight. The other option would be to go with some other iron sights. I like the advantages that the red dot offers though. I'm not sure how I'll resolve it but I'm not real satisfied with the status quoa.

There are a few other performance mods I would like to do, but we will see. My time and money are getting usurped by the .233 above as I want to get it set up a little more to my liking as well. I have a few other projects in the works as well.

[Girodin]

I got a few new parts.

A MD 20. The famous 20 round drum. When they cut the prices on these I figured I would get one just for the heck of it. I'll write a review of the drum later.

I also got a magpul 3/4" cheek riser for the magpul moe stock. This was $20 very well spent. I can now use a proper cheek weld and the things are lined up just right. I am much happier with the fast fire now that I have the cheek riser. The cheek riser simply snapped into place and is very secure. Another great, functional product from magpul.

The fast fire still needs a protector mount. I'm still malcontent that I have no quick back up sight but I may have found a satisfactory solution to that.

Anyways here are the pics and then I'll give my thoughts on the MD 20.
http://thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=115508&d=1266091526

http://thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=115512&d=1266091957

http://thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=115509&d=1266091535

http://thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=115511&d=1266091640

http://thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=115510&d=1266091551

[ChileRelleno]

Yep, it is nice that the magwells are easily detached and one can enjoy the MD20. Even nicer since ProMag announced their new S12 12 & 20 round drums, thus driving the MD20's price down significantly, i.e. from $260. to $120.. And now they are on production preorder and on sale for $100., $50 deposit and $50 prior to shipment.

I just bought another, that makes two :D

Good Gosh! Just think of it, in less than 30 seconds I can put 360 #00 pellets downrange. Anything exposed within 50 yards is in deep doo doo.:evil:

Also, Mike, MD Arm's Owner, says he is very close to bringing his double stack box mags to market, 16-20 rounds in the same length mags as current 8-10 round box mags. He has said they will cost approx $30-40, so save a few $$$$.

[Girodin]

I think a big part of why the MD20 prices came down is because the double stacks will make them much less desirable.

You will have to be a few shells shy of double for same legnth mag on a a double stack because the thing needs to tapper down. Thus a double stack the length of a 10 rounder will probably not hold 20 rounds, one the length of an 8 rounder will likely not hold 16. That said the double stacks will probably be the round to have. I mag the length of a 10 rounder that held 15+ rounds would be cool, even it works with a mag well it would be really be the way to go.

[Girodin]

Drum Review

The MD 20.

The MD 20 always comes up when discussing the S12 with anyone familiar with it. There is something about have 21 rounds of 12 gauge on tap that catches people’s attention. Put an MD 20 in your gun and people at the range stop and look. Even those who aren’t into guns at all seem to know there is something unique and cool about it.
The MD 20 is very well made. I wont take time harping on that point rather I’ll reference you to the drum torture test. I hate to give away the ending but the MD lived and continued to function while the competition (AA wraithmaker) crashed and burned. As an aside the AA drum is a joke and I can find no reason one would purchase one over the MD 20. In short the MD is well made and very robust. Quality is not an issue.

As discussed above in this thread I have a mag well. Mag wells preclude the use of the drum while the mag well is installed. This means that you end up deciding which to run. Previously I had determined that a mag well would probably work better for me. I didn’t have a drum and this was a theoretical determination. When the drums came down in price I decided to buy on and test my theories.
Upon receiving my drum I was first suppressed that it was actually more compact than I thought it would be. The next thing I noticed was that it was not particularly light even unloaded. After loading it up with 20 rounds of 00 buckshot it really started to feel heavy. The reason it feels so heavy is because it is. It weighs roughly 4 pounds fully loaded. My S12 weighs between 8-9 lbs, which adds some perspective of how heavy a 4 pound drum really is.

With the drum inserted in the gun the gun starts to feel heavy. Holding it shouldered with one hand is noticeably more difficult and causes fatigue much more quickly. The extra weight makes things a bit more sluggish and difficult. It would also get old carrying the gun very far.
On the plus side 4 extra pounds can only make what is already a very soft shooting gun even more of a cream puff.
The size of the drum is also an issue. You can still shoot the gun easily enough but you do have to change the way you hold the gun and/or have your support hand arm hitting the drum. It is not going to stop you from using the drum or making hits but I like consistency and it gets in the way of that. As does the dramatic weight difference between drum and stick mag.
Loading a drum on a closed bolt is for me infinitely more difficult than loading a stick mag on a closed bolt. Carrying the drum around is also somewhat problematic because of its shape, size and weight.

I like my drum and I am happy I bought it. I am even more convinced that a mag well is better though. Carrying ten rounders is easier. Reloads with the mag well are a breeze. The gun handles better with a stick mag. Slug transitions and transitions back to buckshot are much easier with stick mags. I hope to get to the range this weekend and do some timed testing with each set up. I want to test 30 rounds of fire with each set up and do some slug transitions etc. Overall I like the mag well better. The mag well comes off easy enough to allow use of the drum when I want but I’ll probably use it more in another S12.

In sum the drum is cool and hard to beat for wow factor but I find the mag well more functional.

[ChileRelleno]

The drop in price was the direct result of ProMag announcing their new S12 drums.
Mike posted this exactly on S12.com., he undercut his competition and flooded the market, getting his product into the hands of every S12 owner who could scrape the cash together.
And a hell of a lot of those who didn't/couldn't buy at $260. bought'em faster than a stray dog scarfing down a dropped hotdog.

Mike bought back all of his distributor's stock at full price and resold them, ran out of stock and is now having another production run. Expected delivery date 6 weeks.
......................................

Promag will have a hard time finding customers, at least those who know a great product/customer service is.
Promag is like Century Arms, which is to say IMPO, 80%+ trash.
........................................

MD20 serves a few distinct niches.

Yep, sure enough there is the cool and super fun factor.

But, there is also few weapons short of FA/SA which can lay down more close range, defensive suppression fire on a perimeter.
Or allow one to work thru a CQ HD or clear rooms without reloading as frequently.
My plan in a SHTF, natural/man made, is to hunker down on my property, and let the S12/MD20 combo fills those niches.

I agree this is not the setup to be toting around by hand.
Ya don't see SAW gunners toting their beasts around that way, no exception here. Get a good two point sling setup on it, padded or not.
And a good VFG, many like the offset type, allows one to easily reach around the drum.
I use a unpadded two point and Tapco SAW style VFG.
http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s190/ChileRelleno/100_7579.jpg
http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s190/ChileRelleno/100_7580.jpg

[Girodin]

The drop in price was the direct result of ProMag announcing their new S12 drums.
Mike posted this exactly on S12.com.

He also posted that the comming release of the double stack was a factor:

"The ProMag drum was the final decider in dropping the price. But the double stacks do have something to do with me wanting to drop the price before I did. For a few different reasons. I will explain those better once I can release more info on the double stacks. Sorry for withholding information on them but I am sure you understand.... And always trust your gut, lol!"--Mike Davidson http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=50457&st=90

Further you'll note that I said that I said "I think" the double stacks are big factor. How much of a factor versus the pro gag drum IDK. The double stacks were a factor however as Mike has made clear. If they turn out as good in real life as they are on paper they will really cut his drum off at the knees along with any others, particularly if the work with a mag well. Thus it makes a lot of sense to move your stock and get as many preorders on another run as possible prior to releasing the drum. I'm not saying this is a bad thing per se.

[Girodin]

Get a good two point sling setup on it, padded or not.


The type of sling one needs is dependent on use. For the type of CQB stuff you describe I prefer a sling like the Magpul MS2. A single point that can be quickly transitioned to a two point if there is some specific need.


And a good VFG, many like the offset type, allows one to easily reach around the drum.

I do not like the offset VFG. If you grip a vertical fore grip under sway is an issue (even more so when the gun weighs 12-13 lbs with a full drum), it is not the most stable way to hold the gun. I index off of my VFG with a broken grip. To me that is the way to use a VFG. The off set grip doesn't allow for that. It also kills ambidexterity. In sum the offset grip is an expensive piece of equipment that is an answer to a non existent problem. The point is to be off set to allow rock n lock reload on an AK. A stubby VFG or an AVG allows for ak rock n lock reloads plus offer a more stable grip and is more ambidextrous.

[Girodin]

I just thought I would add a picture of the gun in a more recent configuration. The Burris RDS held up fine but had some shortcomings as a combat sight. It wasn't as robust as I wanted. Furthermore, it didn't have the batter life of an aimpoint. It also had an off off switch. I like having an aimpoint I can leave on for years and not worry about. It is sitting on the riser in this photo but works better without the riser. I did like the size of the burris. I think an RMR would work well. Mounting it perhaps on a ultimak and losing the top rail. This should save some weight. Which is a bit of an issue with this gun. The gun as pictured it not a light weight. It is a soft shooting gun.. However, it is not as fast handling as a lighter gun. It also is unwieldy for smaller/weaker shooters. It wouldn't be the shotgun I would grab if I were going to walk a long ways.

The light I'm using now is a surefire. I had another use for the TLR 1. I use surefires on another guns as well so there is commonality, which I like.

The sling is a Magpull MS3.

The gun has proven reliable and durable. I still like it very much and believe it is a formidably fighting shotgun. I'll probably still tweek it some as things constantly evolve. I would love a very similar SBS. However, were I starting all over today I would consider starting with an MKA1919 because I think it might be more economical and offer some other advantages.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=173326&d=1350020688

[Dave McCracken]

Thanks for the update. Just for grins, what's the curb weight on that?

[Girodin]

It is not a lightweight gun by any means. I need to weigh it again, and probably with a better more precises scale, but the bathroom scale said as pictured it weighed 10.5 lbs (unloaded w/empty mag). The same scale said my Noveske N4 light 16" AR with: T1 aimpoint, DD 9.0 omega rail, MS3 sling, tango down QD stubby VFG, troy rear BUIS, CTR stock, BAD lever, ASAP, and the same surefire, pictured was 8-8.5 lbs (w/ empty mag).

The same scale said my empty and stock 930 SPX was 7.5 lbs (although I used a slightly different method to weight it, holding the gun instead of placing it on the scale).

Like I said, not a lightweight, but its not too bad. It is notably softer shooting than another S12 I have that is just a basic PG conversion. Again the basic gun is a faster handling gun. It also lacks the advantages of a RDS and of course a light. So there's trade offs each way. One could build something that was in the middle ground too.

If I were wanting to lighten up the S12 I would do the following to start with:

Lose the top of the chaos quad rail. I would probably put an ultimak in its place over the gas tube. Although there are some other options too.

Instead of the aimpoint pro and its mount I'd use something like an RMR. (This and the above are what I most likely to do).

I'm sure there are lighter weight light options.

I like the fat tromix charging handle but it could be omitted.

On the more extreme end of things making it an 8 or even 10.5" SBS would lighten it a lot. Perhaps even cutting the barrel back and permantly attaching a flash hider to make the legal limit or the like would save some weight and get you a little shorter.

Another more extreme, but not ridiculously so, thing would be to remove the unused side rail mount. This does require some work though.

One issue is obviously not just the weight in pounds but where the weight is and the balance of the gun. AKs are front heavy. The quad rail and mounting a RDS up there and a light up there adds more forward weight. There are some approaches that could move the weight to rear and might make the gun feel a little lighter.

[nastynatesfish]

Sweet. I just pickin up a 20gauge I'm gonna start doin a little too. Just did the tromix upgrade
http://i1072.photobucket.com/albums/w369/tabascoman79/fbe9252a.jpg

[Girodin]

Cool. If I found a 20 gauge for the right price I wouldn't mind having one just to have one. I recommend moving the fire control group to its intended location. It is IMHO a dramatic improvement over the configuration you have currently.