Tactical M1 carbine project


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foudufoot
September 6, 2009, 10:26 PM
I bought this M1 carbine from a friend recently for $500. Inland receiver, Underwood barrel, Springfield Armory stock, replacement operating slide. Not a collectible. So I decided to convert it to a tactical home defense weapon. I thought I'd share this project with you.

First choice was the stock. I opted for the Choate folding stock ($104 from Ultimak http://www.ultimak.com/CHM1CF.htm). You can get it for a few bucks cheaper elsewhere, but I also wanted their M6-B picatinny handguard rail ($93 http://www.ultimak.com/M6.htm) so I went with them. The action USGI Inland action fit right in as advertized, with no inletting or fuss. Sold the SA stock and hardware on GB for $80.

I took it back out for a matt black enamel refinish (Brownells Baking enamel) to match the stock and provide additional concealement and corrosion resistance. I also had to replace the front band assembly with an old-style type 1A band without the bayonet lug from Fulton Armory (http://www.fulton-armory.com/MCarbParts.htm) for $24.95 plus shipping.

This will allow me to mount an ATN J125W tactical flashlight (http://www.atncorp.com/units/tacticalflashlights/weaponmountedflashlights/atnjavelin-j125w) under the barrel with a remote pressure switch attached to the stock. This leaves the Picattiny rail handguard free for a red dot sight by Bushnell (http://www.opticsplanet.net/bushnell-airgun-sportsman-3-9x32-riflescope.html) for target acquisition.

There has been considerable controversy about the M1 .30 cal ammo's stopping power. Here is a very good article discussing its merits and limitations (http://m1-carbine.com/m1_carbine_ammo.html). The way to look at it is that it is an intermediate round between a pistol round and a rifle round; superior to 9mm but inferior to any rifle round. It is similar to a 44 magnum round, which is a potent self defense and deer hunting round.

So with a tactical M1 carbine with a 30 round magazine, you have a souped up pistol round with superior magazine capacity and long-range (150 meters) capability. You are also less likely to over-penetrate than with a .223 round. Recoil is also a lot more manageable than with a shotgun.

All in all, it's a versatile option for home and car self defense that can handle almost any situation. I'd post pics if I knew how.

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fireman 9731
September 6, 2009, 10:40 PM
This was shamelessly copied from OnTheFly's helpful Tech Support thread over at TFL.

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Glamdring
September 6, 2009, 10:53 PM
The 5.56/223 will penetrate LESS than 30 carbine.

For power the 30 is almost equal to full power 357 from 6-8" barrel.

Most 110 357 factory loads are 60-70% loads.

Check buffalo bore 357 loads.

Glamdring
September 6, 2009, 10:57 PM
That said I think M1 carbine is good choice, better than a 9mm carbine though not as good as a 357 carbine or 5.56.

I would use corbon ammo for the 30 myself.

amd6547
September 7, 2009, 09:26 AM
I use a stock Inland CMP carbine for HD. The CorBon load sounds good, but is ridiculously expensive. I use standard SP ammo.

foudufoot
September 7, 2009, 09:48 AM
"This was shamelessly copied from OnTheFly's helpful Tech Support thread over at TFL."

Thanks for the warm welcome and accusation of plagiarism, Fireman. In case you didn't notice, I linked and made reference to every site I used. Sorry if I missed your favorite one. I think I'll post my pics elsewhere.

I appreciate the comments and insights from the others.

USSR
September 7, 2009, 10:09 AM
This is my effort at bringing the M1 Carbine into the 21st century.

Don

http://ussr.clarityconnect.com/M1A1a.jpg

cane
September 7, 2009, 10:11 AM
foudufoot, I interpreted the comment to mean that he had copied the information on how to post pictures from the TFL. I think you owe "fireman" an apology.

Bwana John
September 7, 2009, 10:41 AM
I think you owe the firearms community in general a apology for Bubbaing up that Carbine.

Bubba is as Bubba does.

Noveldoc
September 7, 2009, 11:09 AM
For what it is worth, a gunsmith friend crunched the numbers and said M1 carbine round is close to .41 mag. Hr recommends round nsoe soft points for close in work.

Tom

TDDude
September 7, 2009, 11:59 AM
Considering the number of deer I've taken with my now 65 year old M1 Carbine, I'd say that it is wholly adequate as a home defense weapon.

It was my dad's "AR" when he was a Texas DPS officer and was my first deer rifle. I still take it out in the brush when I know I'll have short range shots.

And yes, I had to take a double look at what Fireman said in his first post. Fireman should have said:
"The following was shamelessly copied from........"

The English language is such a pesky beast. :cuss::cuss:

Maverick223
September 7, 2009, 12:59 PM
For what it is worth, a gunsmith friend crunched the numbers and said M1 carbine round is close to .41 mag.About right, it is close to a "hot" .41/.44Magnum...and nearly identical to a .357Magnum carbine which can easily take deer and smaller game at short range. I believe the .30Carbine to be nearly ideal for HD. I am not too big on bubba-fying a classic, but I think USSRs copy is pretty tasteful (and seemingly could be converted right back to original without any problems/gunsmithing). :)

Jeremy2171
September 7, 2009, 01:45 PM
I have plans to so the same thing...just been really busy. I already have the Choate stock and have added a rail underneath for my Surefire combo grip/flashlight. I already have an EOtech 552 set aside for this and I only lack the Ultimak top rail and actual assembly of the carbine to complete this. Should be a fun gun and good for CQB 3-gun matches as well....

SharpsDressedMan
September 7, 2009, 02:52 PM
For thosethat like a full stock. Z-Point on an Ultimak, the rest is GI/CMP. ................................................http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m247/matquig/DSC05280.jpg

rcmodel
September 7, 2009, 03:02 PM
I always thought the M-1 Carbine was pretty tactical just like it fought WWII and Korea.

rc

foudufoot
September 7, 2009, 03:10 PM
Fireman, I DO owe you an apology.:o Thanks for the photo tips and again, I apologize for misreading your post. But Bwana John will have to wait for his. :p No permanent damage done to this war baby, which was a parts gun anyway. I'm still waiting for a 3-point tac sling, ATN J125W barrel-mounted flash light, and front band spring to complete the project, although I'm not enamored with the red dot sight. At 100 yards, it completely obscured the bullseye of an SR1 target. It's still possible to put most rounds in the black or just beyond, so I guess it's good enough for close quarters out to that distance.

USSR and Sharpsdressed man, thanks for the pics. What sight do you have on yours Don?

What's a good source for SP 30 cal M1 ammo? Everything seems ridiculously expensive these days. Cheapest ammo I could find for the carbine was around 40 cents a round!:eek:

Thanks to all.:) Dan

Hummer1
September 7, 2009, 03:30 PM
Are you sure that carbine was not a collector item,The early carbines did not have a bayonet lug.

USSR
September 7, 2009, 03:54 PM
Bwana John,

Not sure who you are talking to, but the Ultimak rail is a no-drill, easy-on, easy-off setup, and reverts to USGI condition in 5 minutes. No Bubba involved.

foudufoot,

That is the Eotech Model 512 sight. Just the thing for the close in shooting that the carbine excels at. You really have to reload for the carbine to be able to afford to shoot it much. I cast bullets for mine, and I can shoot it for as cheaper or cheaper than .22 rimfire.

Don

Orlando
September 7, 2009, 04:42 PM
I love the M1 Carbine but only in its original configuration. To each his own, glad to hear its not permanate

foudufoot
September 7, 2009, 05:29 PM
Hummer1/Orlando/Bwana: This one had the bayonet lug. See the original post. I'm as respectful of collectible milsurps as anyone. I thought I made that clear in the first paragraph. It's not like I chopped the barrel or D&T's the receiver for cryin'out loud! IT WAS A PARTS GUN.:rolleyes:

Don: cast lead bullets in a semi-auto? No problems with feeding or fouling?

It wasn't so long ago that 30 carbine ammo was pentiful and inexpensive. I hadn't been paying much attention as I was shooting mostly from my 6.5 Swede and 7.5 Swiss stash. I guess my 5 gallon bucket of brass must be worth something now.;)

DBR
September 7, 2009, 06:08 PM
According to the tests I have seen the Remington 110gr SP is the ammo to get. Winchester HP would be second choice. If cost isn't an issue the Corbon DPX is the most accurate I have shot.

I bought some Remington from Grafs a while ago. They take back orders.

Polishing the feed ramp is a good idea if you are going to use SP ammo.

Here's some other carbine info:
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19956

Maverick223
September 7, 2009, 06:48 PM
The stock is not for me, but that can be changed back as well (though I do like the paratroopers stock), the ultimak looks to be a great addition. :)

carbine85
September 7, 2009, 07:01 PM
I can sell you that flashlight for $85.00, new in the box with batteries. I have 2-3 left. I also have the larger model also. Let me know.
knubel@zoomtown.com

I have restored several Carbines and built one from left over parts. I think a tactical Carbine is a good choice. The .30 is a good round for hoe defense.

USSR
September 7, 2009, 08:09 PM
Don: cast lead bullets in a semi-auto? No problems with feeding or fouling?

No problems to date - barrel is lead free. Of course, I'm casting my bullets really hard.

Don

http://ussr.clarityconnect.com/30carbinebullet.jpg

Glamdring
September 7, 2009, 11:34 PM
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=25836&highlight=30+carbine+357+magnum

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=103
Heavy 357 Magnum Ammo - 125 gr. J.H.C. (1,700fps/M.E. 802 ft. lbs.) - 20 Round Box

Our 357 mag. ammo adds more power than ever before to the 357 mag. This ammo is safe to shoot in ANY all steel 357 revolver - this includes J frames. This ammo is no harder on your gun than any other normal 357 ammo. Please don't phone us and ask if this ammo is safe in your gun. It is, providing your gun is in safe condition for use with any normal 357 ammo.

We don't recommend this ammo to be fired in super light alloy revolvers as bullets may jump crimp under recoil, but the ammo itself wont hurt these super light weight revolvers. These revolvers are simply so light that the recoil is severe enough to cause crimp jump.

The below velocities are offered so that you can see what guns/barrel lengths give what velocities with this new 357 mag. ammo. You'll notice that new S&W revolvers with short barrels are often shooting faster than older S&W revolvers with longer barrels. The new S&W revolvers are very good and are made with equipment that makes them more consistent and faster than the S&W revolvers of yesteryear.

Make special note of the Marlin 1894, 18.5 inch barrel velocities. Item 19C/20, supercedes 30-30 energies!!!

1. 3 inch S&W J frame

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard cast LFN = 1302 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr. JHC (jacketed hollow cavity) = 1299 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1398 fps
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1476 fps

2. 4 inch S&W L frame Mt. Gun

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard cast LFN = 1375 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr JHC = 1411 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1485 fps
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1603 fps

3. 5 inch S&W model 27

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard Cast =1398 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr. JHC = 1380 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1457 fps
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1543 fps

4. 6 inch Ruger GP 100

a. Item 19D/20-125gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1707 fps

5. 18.5 inch Marlin 1894

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard Cast = 1851 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr. JHC = 1860 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 2153 fps---- Can you believe this?!!!
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 2298 fps---- Or this?!!!

***
Edited to made more sense:
Note specs for 357/125 from 6" barrel "4. 6 inch Ruger GP 100
a. Item 19D/20-125gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1707 fps"
vs 30 carbine is generally 110@1990 +/- from 18" barrel IIRC If you keep barrel length the same you would have a 110 grain bullet in the M1 Carbine vs 170 or so grain bullet in the 357 carbine at about same MV.

Note: I think the M1 Carbine is a GOOD choice with a good load. I would avoid ball ammo and stick to loads that expand for SD use.

Only reason I don't own one is the price point, for the price I can get something more powerful that is still low recoil like SKS or Lever 357 Carbine.

The M1 Carbine with folding stock makes for a easy to transport easy to shoot long gun, one real advantage it has over other similar platforms IMO.

The M1 Carbine is one of the long guns I showed my SO for self defense. Along with AR, AK, SKS, leverguns, and 20 gauge pumps & autos.

She chose a 20 gauge semi because she liked the fit, feel, and balance of it better than anything else in a long gun that was suited to home defense. It backs up her CCW Glocks.

I urge people to pick something they like as long as it fits them and it is a reasonable choice for the job at hand.

And I think whenever possible a long arm should be first choice for self defense. Exceptions mainly being if you can't legally have it with you or quarters are to close.

IMO the M1 Carbine with correct loads is a very good choice. I was just trying to correct error of power of the 30 carbine vs 357 magnum.

Maverick223
September 8, 2009, 12:01 AM
If you load the .30Carbine hot it would do the same thing as the Buff Bores (though I am uncertain if the action could take the additional punishment)...my Lyman's 49th Ed. has the max loading at 1075 ft/lb of ME (when run through ballistics calculator)...what's your point the average load for .357Mag is still about the same as .30Car. (both out of a carbine)?
:)

foudufoot
September 8, 2009, 06:28 AM
I'm not sure what Jack is saying either; that's it's safe to shoot 357 mag out of an M1 carbine? I have shot Buffalo bore out of my S&W 586. Nice ammo, although the recoil is stout in a revolver. Does anyone have experience with or comments on what Glamdring suggests.

Travlin
September 8, 2009, 02:02 PM
foudufoot

Many people have cautioned against the 30 round magazine for defense use. Real USGI 30 round mags are rare and expensive. There are many fakes. Many, but not all, commercial ones are not reliable. Thorough testing is required. You also need the M2 magazine catch with the third contact point on the side to hold it tightly and be reliable. The 30 rounders do complete the assault rifle look when you want just want to show it off.

USGI 15 rounds mags are easy to get and are universally considered reliable after a little testing. In a real fight 15 rounds are a lot, and changing mags is fast. Most consider the reliability more important than higher capacity.

With rare exceptions, all M1 Carbines are "parts guns" as the pieces were mixed up during the overhaul process they went through at least once, if not more. These are still valued by the informal collectors. If yours doesn't have an import mark on the barrel then you got a very good deal at $500. Still a decent price is it was imported. What can you tell us about the second carbine in your photos? Thanks for your post.

USSR
September 8, 2009, 03:11 PM
You also need the M2 magazine catch with the third contact point on the side to hold it tightly and be reliable.

Not necessarily. My M1A1 configured carbine does not have the M2 mag catch and operates just fine with USGI 30 round mags. Still, it is a good idea to get the M2 catch if possible.

Don

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
September 8, 2009, 03:15 PM
Very cool. But they're ALL 'collectible'. Finite supply - Growing demand. That makes it collectible, frankengun or not, I do believe, at least in terms of how I define that word (but I could be wrong). I have no issues with modernizing; just a small point of clarification. :p

SSN Vet
September 8, 2009, 03:48 PM
random comments...

I think .30 carbine is just fine for a home defense weapon...

I thought the M-1 carbine was tactical to begin with

Who shoot's 110s in a .357.... look at those energy numbers again with 158s pushed up to the pressure limit.

How does making the M-1 heavier and bulkier and front heavy make it more tactical? Light and handy are key elements to "tactical" ... but you can't experience either concept on the internet.

M-1 Carbines in their origonal config. look really cool.... at least in my minds eye.

Pistol grips are primarily to give greater control to weapons that are to be fired in full auto.

It's a free country

Maverick223
September 8, 2009, 04:20 PM
Who shoot's 110s in a .357.... look at those energy numbers again with 158s pushed up to the pressure limit.I have run the numbers and the standard FACTORY LOAD of a .357 Magnum is nearly identical to the .30 Carbine...loading one hot and leaving the other as a stock factory load is a pineapples to Ford comparison. :)

amd6547
September 8, 2009, 06:47 PM
The recently imported Korean 30 round mags are the best, IMHO. They have worked perfectly for me. It is not absolutely necessary to use the M2 mag catch with 30rd mags, but I put one on mine "just because". For most purposes, I do prefer the 15's. I have 10 15rd mags from the CMP, but I also have a few of the Korean 15rd mags, and they also are great.
I tried a repro M1A1 stock. Though I generally do like folders, I did not like the M1A1 folding stock, and sold mine. The standard M1 carbine stock works much better for me.
I use my Inland for my HD longarm, and the only "tactical" accessory I added was...a bayonet.

CZguy
September 8, 2009, 06:56 PM
I think you owe the firearms community in general a apology for Bubbaing up that Carbine.

Plus one.

I think modifying a classic like the M1 carbine will bring some sort of negative gun karma. :D

To each his own though...........it's a free country.....so far anyway.

rondog
September 8, 2009, 07:21 PM
I just got my first M1 carbine, an IBM. http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b150/rinselman/smilies/bananadance.gif Life is good, the carbine rocks and it's gonna stay the way it is!!! A very handy little rifle, that I hope to become very good friends with.

CZguy
September 8, 2009, 07:47 PM
Here's my CMP Underwood with it's "tactical accesories".



http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii299/badgerone/M1CarbineII.jpg

amd6547
September 8, 2009, 09:29 PM
Since we're showing pictures...My CMP Inland service grade--six-digit serial, RockOla I-cut stock, flat bolt, and early op slide:
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h61/amd6547/P1000707.jpg

foudufoot
September 8, 2009, 11:27 PM
A lot of good comments, pictures, and opinions. :) I wasn't aware of the M2 catch. Worth looking into. I have two USGI 30 round mags that feed fine, but I appreciate the comments about the 15 rounders. I have two other carbines, a Saginaw and an Inland. Those had mostly original parts, so I'm leaving them alone.

I love the original look as well, but for home defense, I wanted something with a bit more versatility than the original USGI version. At night, a good 125 lumens flash light beats a bayonet, red dot sight beats the original iron sights, and the folding stock helps in tight spaces. The 30 round magazine gives enough firepower, you probably won't need to reload. I agree the original one is pretty darn tactical to begin with, but it can still be improved for indoor and night use. I do agree the added weight from the folding stock, 30 round mag, and added extras is not a plus.

As a collector of Swedish Mausers, a collectible is something that is matching down to the firing pin, so I was a bit surprised by the strong feelings about what I consider to be a parts gun. To each his own, I guess. I feel no remorse at converting this one into its present form and I am willing to suffer the wrath of the carbine Gods if I brought bad JuJu on myself.

I'm still puzzled by the discussion about .357 magnum. Has ANYONE run that round through a carbine? Does it cycle, is it safe, is it accurate? It would offer some additional versatility for home defense ammo, IF it is suitable.

CZguy
September 9, 2009, 12:23 AM
As a collector of Swedish Mausers, a collectible is something that is matching down to the firing pin, so I was a bit surprised by the strong feelings about what I consider to be a parts gun. To each his own, I guess. I feel no remorse at converting this one into its present form and I am willing to suffer the wrath of the carbine Gods if I brought bad JuJu on myself.

I'm still puzzled by the discussion about .357 magnum. Has ANYONE run that round through a carbine? Does it cycle, is it safe, is it accurate? It would offer some additional versatility for home defense ammo, IF it is suitable.

.357 magnum will not chamber or fire through a .30 carbine. I suspect that negative carbine karma is behind your misunderstanding. :D

The 30 round magazine gives enough firepower, you probably won't need to reload.

I don't anticipate have my home broken into in squad strength.

Glamdring
September 9, 2009, 01:14 AM
foudufoot: in your first post you said: It is similar to a 44 magnum round, which is a potent self defense and deer hunting round.

In rough terms the 357 mag is a common handgun cartridge that is close to the 30 carbine but everyone knows 357 magnum< 44 magnum that is why I mentioned it.

I'm still puzzled by the discussion about .357 magnum. Has ANYONE run that round through a carbine? Does it cycle, is it safe, is it accurate? It would offer some additional versatility for home defense ammo, IF it is suitable.

The 357 can't be shot thru a M1 Carbine but it can be shot thru a 357 Carbine
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/fryxell/marlin_1894.htm

Brian Pearce that writes for Handloader & Rifle http://www.riflemagazine.com/home/index.cfm is the one who has done the most writing about 357 magnum loads in lever guns that I can think of in a hurry.

***********

***
How could I forget Paco
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/Default.htm
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/357_magnum_and_the_literature.htm

Think he mentions 357 in some of the other articles but I can't remember which ones.

mljdeckard
September 9, 2009, 01:22 AM
I would never ninja-up my grandfather's Inland heirloom, but I do find myself wondering what I might do if I had a spare. I doubt I will ever get a spare, but I find myself wishing I had snagged one when the prices were lower.

foudufoot
September 9, 2009, 07:18 AM
".357 magnum will not chamber or fire through a .30 carbine. I suspect that negative carbine karma is behind your misunderstanding." :D:D

"I don't anticipate have my home broken into in squad strength."

I don't either but, just in case.....here are some backup pistols you'll appreciate CZguy:

CZguy
September 9, 2009, 09:39 AM
I would never ninja-up my grandfather's Inland heirloom, but I do find myself wondering what I might do if I had a spare.

We all have these evil thoughts from time to time.......you just have to fight them. :D

I don't either but, just in case.....here are some backup pistols you'll appreciate CZguy:

Nice collection. :cool:

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